[00:04] <popey> ali1234: http://www.the3doodler.com/project/hipster-glasses/
[00:04] <popey> has a pdf
[01:05] <aquarius> gah, anyone know about sendmail? Some mails my server sends arrive, some don't, and I don't know why
[01:05] <ali1234> i know a little bit
[01:06] <ali1234> do you really use sendmail, or postfix?
[01:14] <aquarius> I believe it's actually sendmail
[01:14] <aquarius> how can I tell?
[01:15] <vipintruder> aquarius: Probably because your ip (assuming it be static) is included in some blacklist.
[01:15] <aquarius> ali1234, it seems to be actually sendmail
[01:16] <aquarius> vipintruder, I don't believe that that's the problem, because I get the mails (using gmail, although forwarded from my isp's mail server) and others using gmail don't
[01:16] <ali1234> check for /var/spool/postfix
[01:16] <aquarius> it might be the problem, but I don't know how to work that out. The mail's being sent from an Azure server, running discourse.
[01:16] <ali1234> if you find it, look for bounces and other errors
[01:17] <aquarius> and it's not a static IP: the machine gets a dhcp addrss
[01:17] <aquarius> ali1234, the logs either don't tell me what the problem is, or they do and I just don't understand it.
[01:17] <ali1234> make sure that your canonical domain name is actually correct for the mails you are sending
[01:17] <vipintruder> ok, good
[01:17] <vipintruder> ok
[01:17] <ali1234> ie make sure you're not sending mail from root@azureserver12345.microsoft.com
[01:17] <ali1234> that's not going to work
[01:18] <ali1234> also make sure you have configured spf for your domain
[01:19] <aquarius> ali1234, http://paste.ubuntu.com/6522739/ are the relevant lines for one email send attempt from /var/log/mail.log
[01:19] <aquarius> ali1234, what's a canonical domain name?
[01:19] <ali1234> i mean fully qualified domain name...
[01:20] <aquarius> "DSN: Service unavailable" seemed like a relevant error message but I don't think it is; googling it comes up with a zillion people who have it, and a bunch of answers which aren't helpful.
[01:20] <aquarius> ali1234, well. the machine that this is running on is an Azure VM. community.badvoltage.org resolves to that VM. The mail is being sent from info@badvoltage.org. As noted, some emails do get through, so they're not all dying.
[01:21] <ali1234> that log says the message was accepted
[01:21] <ali1234> maybe you are getting greylisted (setting up SPF should fix that)
[01:22] <aquarius> OK. I run this box, but jono has the DNS for badvoltage.org. Is SPF a DNS thing? That is: does jono need to set it up?
[01:22] <ali1234> you don't appear to have any SPF records
[01:22] <ali1234> yes it is a DNS thing
[01:23] <ali1234> basically, in SPF, you add a entry in your domain that isn't a hostname: instead it says "this IP address/host is allowed to send mail from badvoltage.org"
[01:24] <aquarius> worryingly, I am reasonably sure that jono has the DNS for badvoltage.org at 1and1, and according to http://faq.1and1.co.uk/communication/e_mail/general/9.html they don't let you set up SPF records.
[01:24] <ali1234> 1and1 are craaaaaaaaaaap
[01:24] <ali1234> move it to gandi.net
[01:24] <aquarius> If I have to ask him to move the DNS I will, but before I do that, are we sure that SPF is the problem here?
[01:25] <aquarius> I don't want to go through a bunch of hassle like that and then discover that the *actual* problem is that I need to put work_properly=yes in /etc/sendmail/conf :)
[01:25] <ali1234> not until you get a bounce, or the mail goes through (then you can look at the headers to see what happened)
[01:26] <ali1234> mails should never just disappear
[01:26] <aquarius> ah! I have got mail from that box. I can look at the headers of a mail which arrived and garner some clues?
[01:26] <aquarius> what am I looking for/
[01:26] <aquarius> ?
[01:26] <ali1234> "SPF verification failed" or something
[01:26] <ali1234> but SPF is checked by the receiver, so they'll all have different rules for what to do if it's not set up
[01:27] <diddledan> there's two TLS failures in that snippet
[01:28] <diddledan> which I believe are from two separate emails
[01:28] <aquarius> ali1234, SPF lines in the headers of a mail that arrived are:
[01:28] <aquarius> Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 95.142.156.6 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of info@badvoltage.org) client-ip=95.142.156.6;
[01:28] <aquarius> Authentication-Results: mx.google.com;
[01:28] <aquarius>        spf=neutral (google.com: 95.142.156.6 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of info@badvoltage.org) smtp.mail=info@badvoltage.org
[01:28] <diddledan> one going to 1and1 and the other going to google
[01:28] <aquarius> diddledan, ah, I might have snipped too much out of the logs?
[01:28] <ali1234> "neither permitted nor denied" means you don't have a SPF record
[01:28] <ali1234> which you don't
[01:29] <ali1234> some servers will just let that through, other will greylist (which in practice means delay for 30 minutes)
[01:29] <ali1234> the mail.log snippet you posted doesn't look like thats what happened though
[01:30] <aquarius> Now, my mail goes to my ISP, which I have set to forward the mail directly to my gmail account. (That is: it is not collected at my ISP and then POP3ed off by gmail; my ISP forwards the mail to gmail.) Might that make a difference? Specifically, if my ISP doesn't care about SPF, might it accept the mail and then forward to gmail (and gmail then accepts it), but sending it straight *to* gmail might get rfused becaus G
[01:30] <aquarius> oogle themselves *do* care about SPF?
[01:30] <ali1234> no, they don't
[01:30] <ali1234> when i was fixing this, i could always send to my gmail
[01:30] <aquarius> OK, so that's not the reason that mails aren't arriving :(
[01:31] <aquarius> so, if setting up an SPF record isn't the solution... what else might it be?
[01:31] <ali1234> using a wrong from: or reply-to: address
[01:31] <diddledan> aquarius: the only failures I see in that log are related to TLS
[01:31] <ali1234> can i log into your site and try to get it to email me?
[01:31] <diddledan> aquarius: one of the tls errors was from google
[01:32] <diddledan> so an email destined to google failed to get delivered because you failed to verify their ssl cert
[01:32] <aquarius> ali1234, I can send a "test" email to an address of your choice from discourse, if that'll help
[01:32] <ali1234> a.j.buxton@gmail.com
[01:32] <aquarius> diddledan, hm, that sounds relevant.
[01:32] <ali1234> i'll have a look at the headers, if it arrives
[01:33] <aquarius> ali1234, test email sent
[01:33] <aquarius> diddledan, why wouldn't the machine be able to verify google's ssl cert?
[01:33] <ali1234> nothing yet...
[01:33] <diddledan> aquarius: likely an openssl issue - do you have the ca-certificates deb installed?
[01:34] <aquarius> and... it says "Message accepted for delivery"?Or is that sendmail itself saying "ok, calling process, I accept that email and now I'll try and send it to the relevant mail server"?
[01:34] <aquarius> diddledan, yes. ii  ca-certificates                             20111211                            Common CA certificates
[01:35] <shauno> the latter.  accepted for delivery means this server believes that the originating server is allowed to relay (or deliver) via this host
[01:35] <aquarius> OK. So that "accepted for delivery" does not mean that *GMail* has accepted the mail for delivery, it means *sendmail on my server* has accepted it and will now attempt to deliver it to gmail.
[01:36] <aquarius> which suggests, then, that the next line, which is a STARTTLS verify=FAIL, is relevant, as diddledan says
[01:36] <aquarius> I have the ca-certificates package installed
[01:36] <ali1234> that does seem quite a reasonable explanation
[01:37] <shauno> I do note that like 8 also has verify=FAIL for 1und1's MX, yet that seems to work
[01:37] <shauno> line 8, rather
[01:37] <diddledan> you can use openssl directly to connect to google from your server: openssl s_client -starttls smtp -connect gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com:25
[01:37] <diddledan> if it connects then I'm wrong
[01:38] <aquarius> diddledan, you are, then, wrong
[01:38] <aquarius> well, by the look of it you are
[01:39] <diddledan> if you get a line similar to "verify error:num=20:unable to get local issuer certificate" then there _might_ be an issue
[01:39] <diddledan> I get that line on os x though but it still connects
[01:39] <aquarius> diddledan, http://paste.ubuntu.com/6522782/
[01:40] <aquarius> ya, it connects. It does give that line about the local issuer cert, but it still connects and I can talk to it
[01:41] <ali1234> aquarius: what is actually happening in that original log you posted?
[01:41] <ali1234> last thing is does is send an email to info@ via 1and1
[01:41] <ali1234> is that a message like "email failed to send"
[01:41] <ali1234> or is it unrelated?
[01:41] <aquarius> ali1234, someone tried to sign up to Discourse. It sends them the "click on this link to verify your account" email.
[01:41] <aquarius> it is possible that I have included too many lines in the log
[01:42] <aquarius> specifically, I don't think that any email *arrived* at info@badvoltage.org.
[01:42]  * aquarius asks jono
[01:43] <shauno> curious, is the hostname really 'default'?
[01:43] <ali1234> so, the clue then is i guess DSN: Service unavailable
[01:43] <aquarius> so it may indeed be that an "it went wrong" message got sent to info@badvoltage.org, and that "it wnt wrong" message never got delivered either
[01:43] <ali1234> no, it did
[01:43] <ali1234> stat=Sent (Message 0LtnVJ-1Ve1kp2N6b-0119yR accepted by mxeu5.kundenserver.de)
[01:44] <aquarius> "DSN: Service unavailable" is a wildly useless error message, because there are a trillion hits for it and the responses on every forum in the land are things like "are you sure your DNS works?" :(
[01:44] <ali1234> can you send a test message to... al@drumoff.tv
[01:45] <aquarius> hm. So this looks like some sort of related message was sent to info@badvoltage.org, and we didn't get that message (which probably contains useful debugging info)
[01:45] <ali1234> well you should have... 1and1 received it
[01:45] <aquarius> test email sent to al@drumoff.tv
[01:45] <aquarius> yeah. I don't know where info@badvoltage.org goes, though.
[01:46] <ali1234> need to find an email that can receive directly the message... and then look at the headers
[01:46] <ali1234> shauno: where do you see "default"?
[01:46] <diddledan> ali1234: 4th field in the log
[01:46] <ali1234> that could be the problem, if the FQDN is wrong (and it usually is on ubuntu vhosts)
[01:47] <ali1234> oh yeah, every line
[01:47] <aquarius> ah. Now, "hostname" said "default". So I did "sudo hostname community.badvoltage.org" to set it
[01:47] <aquarius> I do not know what I need to do to make that take effect, though
[01:48] <diddledan> first you need to set it in /etc/hostname so it gets set after reboob
[01:48] <vipintruder> sudo /etc/init.d/networking restart
[01:49] <diddledan> THEN ideally you'd set the RDNS on the server's ip to also be community.badvoltage.org - some email servers are picky about reverse dns
[01:49] <aquarius> vipintruder, um.... I'm sshed into it.
[01:49] <vipintruder> ok
[01:49] <shauno> ali1234: the log entries linked, it should go timestamp hostname process[pid]: text
[01:49] <aquarius> vipintruder, if I restart networking, it'll boot me off, won't it? Will I be able to get back on?
[01:49] <shauno> I was just curious if 'default' actually is the hostname; if it was just sanitizing logs, or if something is altogether weird in the name resolution
[01:49] <diddledan> aquarius: you won't get back on if the network doesn't finish restarting
[01:50] <diddledan> changing the hostname doesn't require network reset though
[01:50] <aquarius> I don't think I can make the machine's IP reverse-dns to community.badvoltage.org, because it's an azure box; it's juju-azure-cw1co66xeo.cloudapp.net
[01:50] <aquarius> ok, I have edited /etc/hostname
[01:50] <vipintruder> yes, ofcourse.
[01:51] <ali1234> according to what i just read, the email sent to info@ should contain the exact error google's mailserver sent
[01:51] <ali1234> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mail.sendmail/i2zZ4BVqd9E
[01:51] <diddledan> in that case then I'd change the sendmail config to get sendmail to report that it _is_ juju-azure.....
[01:51] <diddledan> that way the reverse dns matches with the smtp identifier
[01:52] <diddledan> the sent-from email addresses don't need to change from community though
[01:52] <aquarius> ali1234, right. I have asked jono to try and find those emails :)
[01:52] <diddledan> it's a wire-level issue
[01:53] <aquarius> where does sendmail keep its config?
[01:53] <diddledan> from memory it's an evil pre-parsed m4-based config that gets compiled
[01:53] <aquarius> aha /etc/mail/sendmail.conf
[01:54] <diddledan> they might have moved away from that though - my memory is from the 90s
[01:54] <diddledan> and my memory might be confusing it with exim
[01:54] <aquarius> and /etc/mail/sendmail.cf
[01:55] <aquarius> # my official domain name
[01:55] <aquarius> # ... define this only if sendmail cannot automatically determine your domain
[01:55] <aquarius> #Dj$w.Foo.COM
[01:55] <aquarius> that's in sendmail.cf
[01:55] <shauno> I hope so.  it used to be that sendmail's config files were dark incantations
[01:55] <aquarius> but... can it automatically determine my domain?
[01:55] <ali1234> probably not if it is using "default"
[01:56] <diddledan> it should tell you in the logs on a restart what hostname it's using - OR you could connect to the smtp port and see what it reports in the welcome
[01:56] <aquarius> I can't see anywhere in /etc/mail/sendmail.* where it mentions "default" as a hostname
[01:56] <diddledan> <3 textual protocols
[01:56] <ali1234> well it won't... that's a default...
[01:56] <aquarius> $ telnet localhost 25 says 220 default.juju-azure-cw1co66xeo.f3.internal.cloudapp.net ESMTP Sendmail 8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-2ubuntu2.1; Thu, 5 Dec 2013 01:56:31 GMT; (No UCE/UBE) logging access from: localhost(OK)-localhost [127.0.0.1]
[01:57] <aquarius> that "internal" address looks a bit wrong.
[01:57] <ali1234> doesn't seem to resolve
[01:57] <shauno> that's very likely to be what it calls itself when it hello's strangers then
[01:57] <ali1234> that could be the problem
[01:58] <aquarius> ahahahaha!
[01:58] <shauno> google are famously fussy about that .. it started biting people recently because they've started to expect the same on ipv6 too
[01:58] <aquarius> I have the bouncy emails.
[01:58] <diddledan> I say Ehllo these days
[01:58] <ali1234> after 30 minute delay?
[01:59] <aquarius> no, but it was in another account, and gmail put the bounce message into spam because it's a bounce from a message that gmail didn't see me send :)
[01:59] <aquarius> IP blocked for spam. Dammit.
[01:59] <diddledan> \o/
[01:59] <aquarius> I suspect gmail may be blocking lots of azure
[01:59] <diddledan> indeed
[01:59] <aquarius> <<< 550-5.7.1 [138.91.52.164       1] Our system has detected an unusual rate of
[01:59] <aquarius> <<< 550-5.7.1 unsolicited mail originating from your IP address. To protect our
[01:59] <aquarius> <<< 550-5.7.1 users from spam, mail sent from your IP address has been blocked.
[01:59] <aquarius> <<< 550-5.7.1 Please visit http://www.google.com/mail/help/bulk_mail.html to review
[01:59] <aquarius> <<< 550 5.7.1 our Bulk Email Senders Guidelines. za4si33673866wjc.96 - gsmtp
[01:59] <ali1234> aquarius: i just got your first test email
[02:00] <diddledan> which is why a lot of cloud services often have cloudy smtp relays
[02:00] <diddledan> you pay extra to access them though
[02:00] <diddledan> amazon call theirs SNS
[02:00] <diddledan> IIRC
[02:00] <shauno> be warned their 'guidelines' are very likely to be impossibly vague
[02:00] <diddledan> no, not sns
[02:00] <ali1234> oh wait, no, it's the second one
[02:00] <ali1234> via gandi
[02:01] <diddledan> SES is amazon's
[02:02] <diddledan> simple email service
[02:02] <aquarius> I'm on azure. Not sure if they have one
[02:02] <ali1234> X-Policy: Greylisted 300 seconds
[02:02] <diddledan> no, I'm not sure about azure either
[02:02] <shauno> there's no such thing as a simple email service :/  smtp is the work of the devil
[02:02] <ali1234> if you set up SPF it might cancel out the badness
[02:02] <diddledan> shauno: yeah
[02:02] <diddledan> SPF eliminates the work of the devil? wow
[02:02] <aquarius> yeah, google's "bulk email guidelines" say "we recommend you set up spf", but not with any sort of "and if you do that'll fix it" thing
[02:03] <ali1234> Received: from default.juju-azure-cw1co66xeo.f3.internal.cloudapp.net (unknown [138.91.52.164]) <- fixing that might also help
[02:03] <aquarius> and I really don't want to hassle jono to move the dns from 1and1 if it won't fix the problem...
[02:03] <shauno> they never promise it'll fix it.  they're very defensive of their spam filter, and don't want to give spammers any real clues how to avoid it
[02:03] <ali1234> and a very good spam filter it is too
[02:03] <diddledan> spam filtering is very similar to search engine ranking - you don't want to show anyone how it's done
[02:04] <shauno> but things like spf, dkim do make mails do lend an air of legitimacy
[02:04] <ali1234> you should move everything you possibly can away from 1and1 anyway... they are rubbish
[02:04] <shauno>  okay, that wasn't a sentence, which means it's bedtime
[02:04] <diddledan> shauno: do you still have a 1&1 vps? :-p
[02:05] <shauno> I still have a hosting account with them, because I'm grandfathered into their free-for-life deal when they launched in the US
[02:05]  * diddledan refers shauno to ali1234's previous comment
[02:05] <diddledan> freeforlife?!
[02:05] <diddledan> wtf?
[02:05] <aquarius> ali1234, not up to me. *My* DNS is not with 1and1 :)
[02:06] <shauno> it's just shared hosting though, and rarely gets used for anything.  I just keep it alive because .. it's free
[02:06] <diddledan> heh
[02:06] <shauno> I have my names with gandi because they don't act like ipv6 glue is witchcraft, and host my nameserver myself
[02:07] <diddledan> I need to host my own nameservers
[02:07] <ali1234> i don't need t host my own anything
[02:07] <diddledan> ali1234: but you want to, right? :-p
[02:07] <shauno> most likely you don't need to.  most likely I don't need to :)
[02:08] <ali1234> diddledan: NO
[02:08] <shauno> although tying bind9 to apple's global-bonjour stuff is cheaper than acid
[02:08] <ali1234> i especially don't want any of this cloud nonsense
[02:08] <diddledan> cloud is awesome
[02:08] <ali1234> not until it's actually completely transparent and i don't have to care about it
[02:08] <diddledan> though I'm hosting ordinary servers
[02:09] <diddledan> on*
[02:12] <aquarius> well... this is bleedin' annoying, then.
[02:12] <aquarius> doing spf and dkim and things is hell on legs
[02:12] <aquarius> azure don't provide an smtp server
[02:13] <aquarius> SendGrid do, and give me 25,000 emails per month. Will that be enough? Perhaps.
[02:15] <shauno> for dkim I should point out, unless you control every mailserver this domain will use, it won't work
[02:16] <shauno> spf is much easier because you just have to list them all
[03:59] <Vairam> hello
[04:00] <Vairam> I'm using Motorola droid RAZR
[04:00] <Vairam> i installed Ubuntu quantal in my mobile
[04:01] <Vairam> its working but it is not working on saucy
[04:02] <Vairam> anyone there
[05:31]  * MartijnVdS pushes AlanBell 's campaign over the £2500 edge
[06:57] <diddledan> MartijnVdS: there's a £2500 edge? I thought the indiegogo edge campain didn't reach it's however many meelions :-p
[07:01] <MooDoo> morning all
[07:02] <MooDoo> congrats AlanBell on reaching your target for the pi's :D
[07:19] <foobarry> +1
[07:19] <MooDoo> morning foobarry
[07:32] <foobarry> morning
[07:33] <foobarry> somebody made the adobe password crossword from xkcd http://zed0.co.uk/crossword/
[07:34] <MartijnVdS>  haha :)
[07:34] <MooDoo> yeah saw that before, took me ages to figure out how to do it :D
[07:39] <foobarry> who calls their dog "shadow"?
[08:08] <foobarry> now AlanBell and co. are funded, can the still shot from the youtube vid show a happy  face now?
[08:11] <AlanBell> \o/
[08:11] <TheOpenSourcerer> lol
[08:11] <AlanBell> foobarry: I will probably do another video
[08:12] <TheOpenSourcerer> AlanBell: Dancing naked round a pile of Raspberry Pi - bit like in Wicker Man. Something like that maybe?
[08:12] <Myrtti> oooohhhh
[08:13] <AlanBell> I might make one or two changes to that plan
[08:13] <TheOpenSourcerer> Calm down Myrtti
[08:13] <Myrtti> hacker skill badges
[08:13] <Myrtti> http://www.adafruit.com/category/70
[08:13] <foobarry> gonna be a long day. baby hasnt stopped whining since < 6am
[08:14] <MooDoo> foobarry: been there :D
[08:16] <Myrtti> I might need more tea, I read baby as body and was going to say something that agrees (pain sucks, what sucks more is an Adobe Connect meeting I had to drag myself into at 7, and not having time to get a drink to get a painkiller)
[08:16] <diddledan> lol @ magic blue smoke badge
[08:17] <foobarry> wow, these are real? http://www.natureknows.org/2013/11/amazing-macro-photography-of-individual.html?m=1
[08:18] <diddledan> foobarry: those scare me -- because I equate them with the andromeda strain
[08:23] <AlanBell> I love the water jet badge
[08:30] <MooDoo> now that the global jam has been announced for next year, do we do anything for it?
[08:32] <popey> We should.
[08:36] <MooDoo> I've put the date in my diary so if there is a party as well ;) i'd like to go to this one :D
[08:37]  * TheOpenSourcerer is starving after all that driving yesterday. Thinking *BACON*
[08:38] <popey> nativity today
[08:38] <TheOpenSourcerer> w00t!
[08:38] <popey> front row reserved seats ㋛
[08:38] <MooDoo> next wednesday afternoon for me.
[08:38] <TheOpenSourcerer> My youngest on doing the sound at his... Don;t think my eldest's has one this year (Double Yay!)
[08:39] <popey> Sam is "Mouse #1"
[08:39] <TheOpenSourcerer> ha ha ha
[08:39] <MooDoo> my son has been practising "little donkey" every night for the past 2 weeks :D
[08:40] <TheOpenSourcerer> Monty's school is really quite big for a primary (~500 kids). It gets really *painful* when they have to try and get all of them on stage at some point through the evening... They have lots of singers ;-)
[08:40] <popey> hehe
[08:40] <popey> Villager #128
[08:41] <TheOpenSourcerer> Exactly.
[08:41] <MooDoo> lol
[08:41] <TheOpenSourcerer> http://www.waverley-abbey.surrey.sch.uk/site/
[08:45] <popey> \o/ http://www.hawleyplace.com/
[08:46] <MooDoo> http://www.st-wilfrids.ik.org/
[08:47] <popey> oooh christmas lunch
[08:47] <popey> wish I could sneak in and have some ☻
[08:49] <TheOpenSourcerer> My eldest son's "big" school: http://www.weydonschool.surrey.sch.uk/
[08:57] <foobarry> i dont remember mice in the nativity..i thought they herded the kids in as sheep
[09:30] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Ninja Day! :-D
[09:34] <MooDoo> JamesTait: I already said morning, but you didn't see me COZ I'M A NINJA ;)
[09:34] <foobarry> popey: airfix/scaletrix/honbry reminder :P
[09:34] <JamesTait> MooDoo, nice. ;)
[09:35] <foobarry> today is the scalextric endor set
[09:35] <foobarry> i think all the answers are (b) today
[09:36] <MartijnVdS> foobarry: trains? on endor?!
[09:36] <MartijnVdS> uh
[09:36] <MartijnVdS> racing cars, on endor?!
[09:36] <foobarry> slot racing
[09:36] <foobarry> speederbikes
[09:37] <MartijnVdS> ah, of course
[09:40] <TwistedLucidity> foobarry: Whut?
[09:41] <foobarry> huh?
[09:42] <MooDoo> is it me or is the ubuntu-uk mailing list quiet?  has there really been nothing since the 23rd nov, or is it me?
[09:43] <foobarry> TwistedLucidity: aformentioned companies have a free competition every day of december to win free stuffs
[09:43] <TwistedLucidity> foobarry: Ah, I see.
[09:43] <DJones> MooDoo: Nope, thats right
[09:43] <AlanBell> MooDoo: it is oh so quiet
[09:43] <MooDoo> AlanBell: shhhh shhhhh ;)
[09:44] <MooDoo> AlanBell: well done on the pi thing :D
[09:49] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: yeah, I saw it at 2477
[09:50] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: I just had to fix that ;)
[09:50] <AlanBell> :) thanks
[10:06] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[10:09] <foobarry> what's happened to linux format? most of the team quit?
[10:10] <MartijnVdS> didn't they start a kickstarter?
[10:10] <foobarry> seems so. and they want subs up front before we've seen a magazine
[10:11] <foobarry> looks like they'll make it
[10:13] <foobarry> has anyone seen LF since?
[10:13] <diplo> I'm subbed to LF
[10:13] <foobarry> i used to read the other one for 5yrs
[10:13] <diplo> Been debating cancelling it for the last 6 months but I'm lazy
[10:14] <diplo> It's imo gone downhill over the last year, way to many adverts for my liking as well
[10:14] <diplo> And the stuff they put in it, I'd rather a magazine without the disc as well
[10:14] <foobarry> sounds like you're their target customer for the kickstarter mag then
[10:15] <diplo> Debated about trying the more dev/sysadmin which the name of has totalleft left my mind atm
[10:15] <foobarry> linux magazine?
[10:15] <foobarry> linux journal?
[10:17] <foobarry> the trouble with mags is that they are generally written by people who also write g+ posts and blogs about stuff
[10:17] <foobarry> which i read, but isn't essential "learning", its just casual reading
[10:19] <diplo> yeah mine are always found in the loo :) I just read them when the kids are having a bath or other stuff :)
[10:19] <diplo> Linux User/Developer was the one
[10:32] <TwistedLucidity> foobarry: The ex-LXFers are now doing "Linux Voice" and the fundraiser is on Indiegogo
[10:33] <foobarry> yep, i was wondering about the effect on LF
[10:33] <foobarry> have they killed the mag? the only regular linux mag on the supermarket shelves?
[10:34] <TwistedLucidity> What I dislike about LXF is the way the gloss over important stuff. When they did "ownCloud" the mentioned that you needed to secure it. No where did they discuss *HOW*.
[10:34] <TwistedLucidity> What they should have done was run one article about "ownCloud" and then a second (next month?) about how to secure the wee bugger.
[10:34] <foobarry> i find all magazines too formulaic
[10:35] <TwistedLucidity> Directory permission, mod-security etc etc
[10:35] <foobarry> whether it's photography or linux or other
[10:35] <TwistedLucidity> They have to catch everyone, so some articles will be too simple, others too complex. But to just ignore something as important as security....yeesh.
[10:37] <TwistedLucidity> Although I guess "security" encompasses so much they'd have to start with "Re-wiring your home network to create a DMZ"
[10:38] <diplo> :q
[10:38] <diddledan> I hate that consumer routers have a "DMZ Address" setting which doesn't deserve the name DMZ at all - a DMZ is supposed to be segregated, not just a host on the lan that has everything forwarded to it
[10:39] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: \o/ openwrt, where you can put it on a second vlan :)
[10:39] <diddledan> diplo: was that a smilie or a vim command in the wrong window? :-p
[10:39] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: (also, I get a /48 from my ISP, giving me 2^16 /64s to distribute that way)
[10:40] <diddledan> MartijnVdS: yeah vlans are nifty
[10:40] <TwistedLucidity> I bought a nice Buffalo dd-wrt router. I thought it would be easy enough to assign one port as a DMZ. Can I do that? Can I feck. All the ports are bridged in some odd way.
[10:40] <MartijnVdS> TwistedLucidity: dd-wrt is very closed/weird in a lot of ways
[10:40] <MartijnVdS> openwrt is much more recognisable for command-line people :)
[10:40] <diddledan> openwrt bundle a damned webui now tho which really sucks
[10:40] <ali1234> most consumer routers support vlans these days
[10:41] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: yeah, luci is bad
[10:41] <TwistedLucidity> MartijnVdS: I think, from reading, it's a hardware limitation. I have considered flashing in with OpenWRT, but the risk is too great.
[10:41] <ali1234> perhaps not in the webif, but in the hardware they do
[10:41] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: top-end ones, maybe. Lower-end ones don't.
[10:41] <diddledan> ali1234: they might have hardware support for them, but it's rarely exposed in the ui
[10:41] <MartijnVdS> TwistedLucidity: what's the model/type?
[10:42] <TwistedLucidity> MartijnVds: Buffalo AirStation Nfiniti WZR-HP-AG300H-EU
[10:43] <diddledan> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25138271
[10:43] <TwistedLucidity> I can separate WifI easily enough (so I have an isolated guest network there), can't do dick with the LAN though.
[10:43] <diddledan> I'll just leave that there and see if anyone bites
[10:44] <MartijnVdS> TwistedLucidity: ah, region-based firmwares.. eek
[10:44] <MartijnVdS> TwistedLucidity: though I've added serial consoles to all of my TP-Links 8-)
[10:44] <TwistedLucidity> MartijnVdS: ?
[10:44] <MooDoo> diddledan: my kids would love that :)
[10:45] <MartijnVdS> TwistedLucidity: I have several TP-Link routers, all of which I've flashed with OpenWRT
[10:45] <foobarry> run out of maryland cookies...onto the backup biscuits
[10:45] <foobarry> bourbons
[10:45] <diddledan> MooDoo: it's perfect for bathtime
[10:45] <MartijnVdS> TwistedLucidity: and I've soldered pins onto the serial "holes" so I can recover from bad flashes
[10:45] <foobarry> always keep a backup
[10:45] <TwistedLucidity> MartijnVds: I meant the "region-based" thing. Why wouldn't they be region based?
[10:46] <TwistedLucidity> I bought this Buffalo thinking it was decent kit as, from the docs, it seemed to do everything.
[10:46] <MartijnVdS> TwistedLucidity: Oh, the US version can only access 11 channels, but can send a more powerful signal
[10:46] <MartijnVdS> TwistedLucidity: compared to the EU version, for example
[10:46] <TwistedLucidity> Of course, I don't wuite "get" networking so I could well be missing something
[10:46] <TwistedLucidity> MartijnVdS: I guess the local regulations differ?
[10:47] <MartijnVdS> TwistedLucidity: they do, and usually that's just a switch in the web interface
[10:47] <diddledan> the wifi in the uk is restricted to 100mW max - including any gain from the antenna - if you put a high-gain antenna on you have to reduce the drive by an equivalent amount to remain legal
[10:47] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: yeah and 100mW gets you *nowhere*
[10:47] <MartijnVdS> we have the same rule in .nl
[10:48] <ali1234> increasing the router power doesn't help the return signal of course. it's pretty much pointless
[10:48] <gordonjcp> 100mW ERP
[10:48] <gordonjcp> if you have a 10dBi antenna, you still get the same radiated power but ten times gain on receive
[10:48] <TwistedLucidity> Well, the signal is fine. It's on the floor below and I have on antenna blasting the lower floor/back garden, the other point up to cover the upper floor. Seems to work.
[10:49] <MartijnVdS> TwistedLucidity: I manage wifi for a caravan park (in a forest)
[10:49] <gordonjcp> as an aded bonus if you've got a directional antenna you can often avoid local interference sources
[10:49] <MartijnVdS> Leafy trees should be banned.
[10:49]  * gordonjcp runs about 5W ERP on 2.4GHz
[10:49] <diddledan> MartijnVdS: I bet you hate the summertime then  :-p
[10:49] <TwistedLucidity> Over Chrimbo I'll try to prat around with the network ports again. Thing is, there's two telecommuters in this house and the Interent *MUST WORK* all the time. If I break the link, I am in the shit.
[10:50] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: we've just added a few extra "cells" of wifi to increase "summer coverage", yes
[10:50] <diddledan> gordonjcp: I guess you're not uk-based?
[10:50] <gordonjcp> diddledan: yes, I am
[10:51] <diddledan> how'd you get the transmit power up to 5W then?!
[10:51] <diddledan> that's not fair
[10:51] <gordonjcp> power amp
[10:51] <diddledan> I want my wifis to be uber, too
[10:51]  * diddledan pouts
[10:51] <gordonjcp> occasionally I run about 300W ERP
[10:52] <TwistedLucidity> ERP: Echo Rebound Potato?
[10:52] <diddledan> equivalent radiated power?
[10:53] <gordonjcp> diddledan: yes
[10:53] <TwistedLucidity> diddledan: That sounds more like it. But I still like the idea of some kind of mental potato gun transmitter. :-)
[10:53] <diddledan> either that or estimated retail price
[10:53] <gordonjcp> round at a mate's house I've had a crack at a few tens of kW ERP ;-)
[10:53] <diddledan> wow
[10:54] <diddledan> yeah, I fancy getting my hands on a GSM base station transmitter and wiring it up to asterisk
[10:54] <foobarry> dERP
[10:54] <AlanBell> ali1234: I can haz delivery \o/
[10:54] <diddledan> AlanBell: you getting prezzies?
[10:54] <gordonjcp> 300W ERP is about 8W into a 18dBi Yagi, with some feeder loss
[10:55] <MartijnVdS> gordonjcp: but *why*? :)
[10:55] <ali1234> AlanBell: according to the tracking they tried to deliver it yesterday... not sure i believe that though
[10:55] <gordonjcp> MartijnVdS: because I can
[10:55] <gordonjcp> MartijnVdS: many kW is for bouncing 2.4GHz off the Moon
[10:55] <diddledan> lol
[10:56] <diddledan> wifi to australia?
[10:56] <gordonjcp> that's four bays of around 23dBi fed with some unholy large amp
[10:56] <gordonjcp> diddledan: CW and SSB in this case
[10:56] <MartijnVdS> gordonjcp: does it buzz?
[10:56] <AlanBell> ali1234: they did, I was out in France
[10:57] <ali1234> AlanBell: so no tax to pay then?
[10:57] <AlanBell> £27.58
[10:58] <ali1234> hmm... that's significantly less than i expected
[10:58] <ali1234> i wonder how they calculated it
[10:58] <AlanBell> import vat £16.58, brokerage surcharges £11
[10:58] <AlanBell> value declared was $123.77
[10:58] <ali1234> wut
[10:59] <diddledan> $123 ~= £80? so £27.50 is seriously nasty
[10:59] <ali1234> vat is 20%... deal with it
[11:00] <diddledan> oh yeah
[11:00] <diddledan> ouch
[11:00] <AlanBell> not ouch at all really :)
[11:00] <ali1234> they've put the surcharge up tho, everything i read said £8
[11:01] <TwistedLucidity> AlanBell ali1234 You can avoid the surcharge by paying tax beforehand and then putting the reference on the pack. Or so HMRC told me.
[11:01] <ali1234> TwistedLucidity: the seller has to be able to deal with it though
[11:01] <dwatkins> I've never noticed an option like that on any US seller's website.
[11:02] <AlanBell> well seeing as the declared value is somewhat lower than we expected it to be then I think we are all good
[11:02] <TwistedLucidity> ali1234 They buyer just has to tell the seller what to put where. "Tax paid. Ref 1234"
[11:03] <davmor2> Morning all
[11:03] <TwistedLucidity> This certainly applies to UK imports, might not to other territories. Royal Mail will probably chance their arm at the surcharge (esp. now they have been sold at a massive loss)
[11:03] <bigcalm> Morning davmor2
[11:03] <ali1234> TwistedLucidity: yes, plus it would have costed more anyway
[11:04] <TwistedLucidity> Lucky. Sometimes it does work out. Guess it depends who you buy from (fleaBay, established exporter, etc)
[11:04] <davmor2> Ohhhhhh Broken sword 5 has landed
[11:05] <ali1234> TwistedLucidity: adafruit. so fairly legit, but normally they just deal with resellers rather than dealing with overseas shipping
[11:06] <popey> \o/ nativity++
[11:06] <MooDoo> popey: awww was it good :D
[11:07] <TwistedLucidity> ali1234 Prolly just experience then. I was rather surprised how helpful HMRC were when I called them about import codes.
[11:07] <ali1234> HMRC gets a bad rep just because nobody likes being taxed
[11:07] <popey> yes but I have the song stuck in my head now
[11:07] <ali1234> they've always been helpful when i have had to deal with them
[11:08] <TwistedLucidity> New brake calliper £300, import from USA, air freight, all taxes+charges £200. The UK distributor is having a larf.
[11:09] <TwistedLucidity> Got a tax overpayment query sitting with them at the moment...I hope the continue to be helpful. :)
[11:11] <foobarry> i got £15 from giffgaff..
[11:11] <MartijnVdS> foobarry: for being a good customer?
[11:11] <diddledan> \o/ for freebies
[11:12] <foobarry> referrals
[11:12] <foobarry> telling ppl how to get cheap tariffs
[11:14] <foobarry> some ppl  insist on paying £30pm instead of £10
[11:16] <foobarry> NSA reportedly collects 5 billion cell phone location records a day
[11:17] <foobarry> safer to just assume that if they can do it, they are
[11:26] <TwistedLucidity> foobarry: What's the coverage like?
[11:28] <foobarry> O2 network TwistedLucidity
[11:30] <foobarry> hence why i moved from t-mobile to gg
[11:30] <TwistedLucidity> foobarry: OK...that's who I'm with. Might give them a go next time, but the deal I got on the new phone (with cachbacks, refunds etc) was pretty ridiculous.
[11:31] <foobarry> some contract phones are actually good deal sometimes
[11:33] <TheOpenSourcerer> big lol: http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BathM5uCUAAwE5p.jpg:large
[11:33] <TwistedLucidity> The only downer is that I have the only phone on the planet which Cyanogenmod doesn't support. GAH!
[11:37] <foobarry> blackberry market share in china = 0.0% lol
[11:50] <Myrtti> oh wow
[11:50] <Myrtti> http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/dec/04/jack-monroe-budget-christmas?CMP=twt_gu
[11:51] <Myrtti> Jack Monroe \o/
[11:51] <TheOpenSourcerer> "Sprats make a splendid starter." hmmmm.
[11:53] <knightwise>  Oh sweet bliss of "waiting for a network engineer to get his shit together"
[11:53] <bigcalm> !ohmy | knightwise
[12:00] <bashrc> I guess that only passive aggression is permitted
[12:02] <ali1234> whatever.
[12:06] <diplo> Any recommendations on other file managers than nautilus to give a whirl, thunar any good now ?
[12:07] <ali1234> yeah, thunar is very good now
[12:07] <ali1234> it does have one missing feature: it can't store the view mode per directory
[12:07] <ali1234> other than that it is great
[12:08] <diplo> I can deal with that, thanks.
[12:11] <Laney> what about fowl language?
[12:14] <directhex> bok bok bok
[12:16] <popey> 24 hours later, my laptop hasn't overheated once
[12:18] <bigcalm> What physical shop can I go to to buy an UPS? My searching is terrible
[12:18] <bigcalm> Aha, Maplin
[12:18] <popey> maplin
[12:27] <MartijnVdS> http://www.estofex.org/cgi-bin/polygon/showforecast.cgi?text=yes&fcstfile=2013120606_201312051139_3_forecastupdate.xml
[12:29] <ali1234> so what direction is that thing going in?
[12:29] <ali1234> because it's really windy here already
[12:29] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: it's going east
[12:30] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: across the north of the Netherlands, into Germany, Baltic
[12:30] <ali1234> good... already passed over here then
[12:30] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: yeah, it killed a lorry driver in Scotland
[12:36] <MooDoo> pretty windy here i nottingham too
[12:37] <TwistedLucidity> MooDoo: It is, innit?
[12:37] <MooDoo> TwistedLucidity: you up here too?
[12:38] <TwistedLucidity> MooDoo: I'm down in Notts, yup.
[12:38]  * TwistedLucidity views Nottingham as "In the South"
[12:38] <MooDoo> TwistedLucidity: cool, that's a few now, we're taking over the channel ;) where abouts?  City Center?
[12:38] <TwistedLucidity> MooDoo: LUG meet tonight, you should come along
[12:39] <TwistedLucidity> MooDoo: Just West of the city.
[12:39] <MooDoo> TwistedLucidity: not been to a LUG meet in years :)
[12:39] <MooDoo> TwistedLucidity: Calverton for me :D
[12:39] <Laney> bah, this wind and rain
[12:39] <Laney> was going to go into town at lunch
[12:39] <MooDoo> was it something I said?
[12:39]  * Laney is just west of the city too ;-)
[12:40] <Laney> hah
[12:41] <popey> I has soup
[12:41] <MooDoo> it's curry day in the office today
[12:41]  * Laney will man up and bike through it
[12:41] <MooDoo> Laney: my sister is driving me home :D
[12:42] <Laney> nice
[12:44]  * TheOpenSourcerer just had Spanish chicken and rice from the van. It was nice - but I need MOAR!
[12:47] <directhex> today is ryvita & cheese spread. yum
[12:48] <TwistedLucidity> That was nasty - system crash :(
[12:50] <MooDoo> TwistedLucidity: lol thought i'd scared you off :D
[12:50] <TwistedLucidity> Nah, whole machine borked mid-update. Had to SSH in and force a restart when it was done.
[12:51] <MooDoo> welcome back....
[12:51] <TwistedLucidity> MooDoo: Yer a wee bitty further out than me
[12:51] <MooDoo> cool :) we'll all have to meet up for an ubuntu hour in town lol
[12:52] <MooDoo> and meet up for the global jam in april :D
[12:52] <TwistedLucidity> MooDoo there was one last year (I think) at the Roundhouse. A few folks there.
[12:52] <MooDoo> nice :D
[13:01] <popey> BIG SOUP + Roll
[13:04] <TwistedLucidity> Herb encrusted goats cheese + serrano ham + whole grain mustard in homemade sunflower seed bread. Do I win?
[13:04] <popey> yes
[13:10] <Myrtti> BUT ONLY FOR NOW
[13:10] <foobarry> slow cooked beef casserole and spaghetti
[13:11] <MooDoo> Tender diced lamb or chicken cooked with onion, peppers, tomatoes & Pakistani herbs. Garnished with fresh coriander & garam masala
[13:11] <foobarry> home cooked or tesco? mine was home made
[13:12] <MooDoo> foobarry: local curry house lol
[13:12] <Myrtti> we've tried our new multicooker twice now, once for deep frying and once for making rice
[13:12] <Myrtti> should really try something new with it
[13:12] <foobarry> is it the same as a slow cooker?
[13:13] <foobarry> ah, thats one of 8 functions
[13:13] <foobarry> nice
[13:13] <foobarry> just chuck a lamb leg in with some seasoning..yum
[13:14] <TwistedLucidity> Just had to run outside to pin some covers back down. That was a pretty horrible experience.
[13:14] <Myrtti> yeah, D put some money on getting a Codlo and needed to get a new slow cooker as the old one was a digital that needed to be turned on from a button
[13:14] <Myrtti> so when it was on lightning deals last week we got one
[13:15] <foobarry> i  might try slow cooking some haribo
[13:16] <foobarry> lunchtime news is so depressing
[13:16] <dogmatic69> lol, virgin media is subject to XSS
[13:16] <TwistedLucidity> dogmatic69: ???
[13:16] <MartijnVdS> cross-site scripting
[13:17] <MartijnVdS> TwistedLucidity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5l9lSnNMxg
[13:17] <dogmatic69> correct.
[13:17] <TwistedLucidity> MartijnVdS: I know what XSS is! :) I wanted to know in what way VM was vulnerable.
[13:17] <TwistedLucidity> i.e. linky?
[13:18] <TwistedLucidity> As in - link to news article?
[13:18] <dogmatic69> what news article?
[13:18] <foobarry> "Almost 600 under-16s take up smoking every day in the UK" :(
[13:18] <dogmatic69> its the chat system
[13:19] <directhex> foobarry, well, it *is* cool
[13:19] <TwistedLucidity> dogmatic69: So it's their live chat thing?
[13:19] <dogmatic69> yes
[13:20] <diddledan> foobarry: they take it up every day? as in the 600 under-16s keep quitting so they can take it up the next day anew?
[13:20] <TwistedLucidity> dogmatic69: Did VM send you an alert or something? (I'm also a VM customer, so interested in this)
[13:21] <dogmatic69> TwistedLucidity:  no, I am also customer. Was on supprt trying to get help and was taking long so got bored
[13:22] <dogmatic69> inspecting the source and found it
[13:22] <TwistedLucidity> dogmatic69: >ow<
[13:22] <diddledan> dogmatic69: send it to full-disclosure
[13:22] <TwistedLucidity> You may want to tell them. Carefully.
[13:23] <TwistedLucidity> I found a website a while back where I could change their prices when ordering. I didn't order anything and I didn't tell them (figured I'd wind up on the wrong side of the law if I did)
[13:23] <foobarry> diddledan: Questionnaires were completed by 6519 children in 219 schools. And by comparing the numbers of current smokers- with smoking rates among the same age band surveyed the previous year, the researchers were able to estimate the numbers of new teens who took up smoking in 2010-11 in the UK—207,000.
[13:25] <TwistedLucidity> After reading about someone getting the jail for simply changing a URL a few years ago in the UK, seems they'd rather punish the messenger
[13:25] <foobarry> i wonder if e-cigs were inclued in that
[13:25] <MartijnVdS> they should be
[13:26] <TwistedLucidity> dogmatic69: Not just the chat system. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NaJ8_eNtS4
[13:29] <foobarry> MartijnVdS: do e-cigs lead to the burning variety?
[13:31] <MartijnVdS> foobarry: I think so. Also, they've found e-cig smoke to contain carcinogens as well
[13:31] <foobarry> isn't it pure vaporised nicotine?
[13:31] <MartijnVdS> no
[13:32] <foobarry> too simple i suppose
[13:32] <dogmatic69> MartijnVdS:  only when people use too much power and it burns
[13:35] <dogmatic69> foobarry:  pure nicotine is highly toxic
[13:36] <foobarry> Analysis of nicotine patches has shown that they contain tobacco-specific nitrosamines (TSNAs), known cancer-causing agents, in quantities of up to 173ng per patch
[13:36] <foobarry> not sure if good or bad
[13:38] <TwistedLucidity> Everything causes cancer, even oxygen
[13:39] <foobarry> who are you, daily mail>
[13:41] <dwatkins> foobarry: the patches are less bad than smoking, I imagine, for various reasons.
[13:42] <dwatkins> As you approach the ripe old age of 100, your chances of getting cancer probably increase significantly, considering it's a result of errors in cell division from what I understand, so being alive "causes" cancer in that case.
[13:43] <foobarry> i guess if you're on patches/e-cigs then you're trying to quit anyway
[13:43] <TheOpenSourcerer> NEWSFLASH you are all going to die sometime.
[13:43] <Myrtti> 3Doodler \o/
[13:43] <dwatkins> foobarry: indeed, and I am
[13:43] <diddledan> WHAT?!
[13:43] <Myrtti> Doodle all the things!
[13:43] <diddledan> WHEN??
[13:43] <dwatkins> TheOpenSourcerer: weeeeeeelllll, not necessarily
[13:43] <TheOpenSourcerer> dwatkins: Oh yeah? Prove it ;-)
[13:43] <dwatkins> I've heard plausible arguments that we may have the technology to become effectively immortal soon.
[13:44] <dogmatic69> TheOpenSourcerer:  WHAT?!?!?!?!
[13:44] <foobarry> sometimes you get SMART errors first, and sometimesyou die without backups or warning
[13:44] <dwatkins> I said plausible, not that I have proof.
[13:44] <TheOpenSourcerer> When I look at what getting *really* old does to people I have no intention of making it to that stage.
[13:45] <diddledan> TheOpenSourcerer: euthenasia?
[13:45] <MooDoo> TheOpenSourcerer: you'll never be old....botox ;)
[13:45] <TheOpenSourcerer> Nope - but O do not subscribe to the "lets do everything healthy sdo we live longer" brigade.
[13:45] <TheOpenSourcerer> *O/I
[13:46] <TheOpenSourcerer> I've nearly done 50 years already so I consider that a bit of a win frankly :-D
[13:46] <MooDoo> TheOpenSourcerer: chilli health drinks
[13:46] <TheOpenSourcerer> Everything else is a bonus so I might as well enjoy myself.
[13:47] <TheOpenSourcerer> Chillies, cigars, alcohol, golf, curry...
[13:47] <MartijnVdS> Golf is deadly now?
[13:47] <MooDoo> MartijnVdS: oh yes, if you're standing around me when I play :D
[13:47] <TheOpenSourcerer> At my old club a bloke lost an eye.
[13:47] <TwistedLucidity> MartijnVdS: Lightning strike
[13:47] <TheOpenSourcerer> Ball carrered into his buggy and took his eye out.
[13:47] <MooDoo> FOURteen broken ribs :d
[13:48] <TheOpenSourcerer> Well squashed it actually but you get the idea
[13:48] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: uh oh.. I might have to re-plan my running route
[13:48] <TheOpenSourcerer> Golf balls are very hard and travel rather fast.
[13:48] <MartijnVdS> it crosses the local golf course
[13:49] <TheOpenSourcerer> Although if you watch this you might think they are rather soft... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1284051/Incredible-slow-motion-picture-golf-ball-flattens-hits-steel-plate-150mph.html
[13:49] <dogmatic69> TheOpenSourcerer:  not that hard... http://www.datgif.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/golf-ball-slow-motion-impact.gif
[13:50] <TheOpenSourcerer> yeah
[14:18] <foobarry> one good reason to quit eon energy is that you get locked out for 15 mins after getting the password wrong ONCE
[14:19] <dogmatic69> lol
[14:19] <foobarry> then i give up
[14:19] <foobarry> wifey just bought me a jumper from h&m
[14:19] <foobarry> had to tell her it wasn't really my style
[14:19] <foobarry> she was disappoint
[14:20] <bashrc> this is why it's not usually a good idea to buy people clothes for christmas
[14:23] <dwatkins> you could give it to a local homeless shelter, foobarry - although if it's from Abercrombie & Fitch, bear this in mind: http://www.relevantmagazine.com/reject-apathy/poverty/why-fitchthehomeless-backfires
[14:34] <Simon____> Hello
[14:34] <daftykins> hi
[14:35] <Simon____> Sorry, new here, just want to know more about ubuntu?
[14:35] <MartijnVdS> you've come to the right place :)
[14:35] <marxjohnson> Simon____: You've come to the right place!
[14:35] <marxjohnson> gah, beaten to it!
[14:36] <dogmatic69> Simon____:  prob best to get some specific questions as its huge :)
[14:36] <MooDoo> beat me to that too
[14:36] <Simon____> Tremendous, I believe its a general philosphy of a moneyless society everyone contributing to the overall wellbeing of the community?
[14:37] <marxjohnson> Simon____: Yes, but this channel is about the Operating System really :)
[14:37] <marxjohnson> Simon____: http://ubuntu.com
[14:37] <foobarry> but we are nice to each other too
[14:38] <Simon____> Oh, what does that mean?
[14:38] <MooDoo> people like the freeness of it, the ability to change anyting within the os if they feel the need, the community etc
[14:38] <Simon____> So more of an online community than a physical one?
[14:39] <MooDoo> you have to remember that we are all in diffeent parts of the country and world, so it's not practical to meetup but we do have RL meetups :D
[14:40] <Simon____> No, i understand. It's just that i thought it was more of a philosphical discussion than a technical one
[14:41] <MooDoo> sounds like you're more into this than me, I just use the darn os ;)
[14:41] <Simon____> Ha, ok so what do you talk about generally?
[14:41] <marxjohnson> Simon____: There are philosophical aspects, especially if you want to talk about the Free Software movement, but generally the people here are just using the Ubuntu OS and associated software
[14:42] <TwistedLucidity> Ubuntu is the vanguard of the Canonical agenda. *dons tin-foil hat* :-P
[14:42] <MooDoo> Simon____: anything and everything withing reason, this is a publically logged channel
[14:43] <diddledan> publically logged, so if you make a eejit of yourself it's save for future posterity :-p
[14:43] <Simon____> I see, I'm guess i'm more used to forums where there are seperate threads for whatever.
[14:43] <daftykins> we're building a great "history of diddledan" right now
[14:43] <MooDoo> yeah here mostly anything goes
[14:44] <marxjohnson> Simon____: Try ubuntuforums.org or discourse.ubuntu.com for threaded discussion
[14:44] <diddledan> daftykins: I try my best
[14:44] <popey> we also talk about cats
[14:44] <popey> and chilli
[14:44] <popey> and beer
[14:44] <popey> and knitting
[14:44] <Simon____> But yeah, definately agree with free software
[14:44] <marxjohnson> mm beer
[14:44] <diddledan> kitties!!!!!!
[14:45] <MooDoo> Simon____: easiest thing to do is hang around see how you go, we're all friendly
[14:45] <diddledan> cats are the bestest
[14:45] <Simon____> ok thanx marxjohnson and everbody else
[14:45]  * popey wonders if Simon____ is the same Simon who just posted to the mailing list
[14:45] <Simon____> yeah will do
[14:45] <TwistedLucidity> Simon____: Some of the more FSF/GNU channels may be more about the ethos of Free Software.
[14:45] <diddledan> MooDoo: except me when I'm in a sarcastic mood
[14:45] <TwistedLucidity> diddledan: All the time, then?
[14:45] <diddledan> TwistedLucidity: pretty much
[14:46] <diddledan> TwistedLucidity: I don't really have downtime
[14:46] <diddledan> 99.95% SLA on sarcasm here
[14:47] <popey> I think Simon____ was more alluding to the "Ubuntu philosophy" in general, not the one we think of
[14:47] <popey> given his mentions of moneyless society
[14:48] <directhex> COMMUNISM
[14:49] <diddledan> bring back the USSR
[14:49] <Simon____> Yes, Misdirected by google it seems!
[14:51] <popey> \o/ bitcoins ☻
[14:52] <TwistedLucidity> popey How much are they worth now? 2 continents?
[14:52] <popey> they dropped under 1000USD and are probably back up by now
[14:52] <popey> yeah, ~$1012
[14:52] <TwistedLucidity> Accoridng ot oanda, 1BTC==USA$1,109
[14:53] <popey> oh yes
[14:53] <diddledan> ooh, they finially breached the 1k mark
[14:53] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: a few weeks ago already
[14:53] <MartijnVdS> though it was at 900 again this morning..
[14:53] <MartijnVdS> TwistedLucidity: http://bitcoinity.org/markets
[14:54]  * TwistedLucidity looks up the word "arbitrage". Ponders.
[14:55] <MartijnVdS> TwistedLucidity: an "arbiter" is what a referee is sometimes called in Dutch football matches :)
[14:56] <TwistedLucidity> Doe 4od work for anyone? It used to for me, but now it doesn't
[14:56] <TwistedLucidity> iPlayer still fine
[15:00] <marxjohnson> TwistedLucidity: hasn't worked for me for a long time. Lots of 4OD progammes are on YouTube, which does work
[15:00] <TwistedLucidity> face/palm. I keep forgetting that
[15:00] <popey> annoyingly 4OD on iPad now forces an upgrade of the app or it wont start
[15:01] <popey> but I can't update it because the new one is IOS 6 only, and my iPad is IOS 5 ☹
[15:01] <daftykins> the great Apple chop!
[15:01] <daftykins> i've been upgrading a clients mid 2010 MBP to Mavericks today
[15:02] <daftykins> just this afternoon she'd been looking at a program that requires Lion as a minimum - due to being on Snow Leopard previously that was going to be a no!
[15:08] <TheOpenSourcerer> Telcos do arbitrage
[15:12] <TwistedLucidity> daftykins: Is the upgrade easy enough? I'd like to see if it fixees the g/f's MBP.
[15:12] <daftykins> fixes? what happened to it?
[15:12] <daftykins> well, i don't believe in OS upgrades - so i made up a USB flash drive and nuked the system :D
[15:12] <daftykins> then i pulled in the user data only from the time machine backup
[15:13] <TwistedLucidity> daftykins: Safari sucks. Pauses for about 30 seconds - 1 min on first load. Then on about every 5th page load. Chrome is a bit better, but not great.
[15:13] <daftykins> i wanted as few remnants of the old install as possible, including reinstalling Office
[15:13] <TwistedLucidity> Kubuntu in a VM runs like a champ
[15:13] <daftykins> is that Safari on OS X playing up?
[15:13] <daftykins> er oops *mavericks
[15:14] <TwistedLucidity> daftykins: Yes. OS X 10.5.something or other
[15:14] <daftykins> Mavericks is 10.9
[15:14] <TwistedLucidity> I can't recall the exact version, but it claims it can upgrade to Mavericks
[15:15] <daftykins> the annoying thing is you need 10.7 or 10.8 to make a working USB flash drive for a proper clean install
[15:15] <TwistedLucidity> It might be 10.7 for all I know. Not my laptop so I try not to take to do with it, other than offer advice.
[15:15] <daftykins> but thankfully i have VMs of those :D
[15:21] <MooDoo> AlanBell: that's one heck of a beer fridge :)
[15:21] <dwatkins> AlanBell: congrats on the Pi project :)
[15:21] <dwatkins> does it have a name yet?
[15:21] <popey> http://lamborghininewportbeach.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/we-just-sold-our-very-first-vehicle.html
[15:21] <popey> someone bought a tesla with bitcoin
[15:22] <bashrc> was it Satoshi?
[15:23] <MartijnVdS> bashrc: nobody knows
[15:24] <diplo> popey: Do you know who does the badvoltage web stuff ?
[15:24] <diplo> is it sil ?
[15:24] <popey> yes
[15:24] <diplo> ah, just got an error with a plugin, will keep an eye out for him to come back in
[15:26] <AlanBell> dwatkins: no name yet
[15:26] <dwatkins> I called my Raspberry Pi with two monitors "raspberrytau"
[15:42] <popey> AlanBell: do you still need crimp tool / bits?
[15:45] <AlanBell> I found some bits, I am thinking of redesigning it a bit so I don't need to cut/crimp cables because it is a fiddly and annoying task
[15:48] <directhex> another steam box announced. http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/pool/main/m/mono/mono_3.2.3+dfsg-4.dsc
[15:48] <directhex> gah
[15:48] <directhex> http://hexus.net/tech/news/systems/63349-piixl-jetpack-steam-machine-announced/
[15:48] <daftykins> hexus still going.
[15:52] <directhex> apparently
[15:52] <daftykins> ;)
[16:04] <TheOpenSourcerer> directhex: DO NOT SHOW THAT TO MY KIDS
[16:05] <daftykins> TheOpenSourcerer: what's the worst that could happen? :D
[16:05] <TheOpenSourcerer> £600???
[16:05] <TheOpenSourcerer> Kids spend less time doing *useful* things
[16:06] <dvrr> Initialization Sequence Completed With Errors  openvpn   client windows 7 how to resolve  please help me
[16:06] <dvrr> ubuntu client it's work
[16:24] <popey> blimey, windier than I thought http://imgur.com/vkQKi7k
[16:26] <bigcalm> It's a touch blustery over here
[16:32] <davmor2> popey: ouch
[16:32] <diplo> I've lost a fence panel at lunch time :/
[16:33] <diplo> Died right off again now though
[16:47] <bigcalm> I wonder if Linux Voice will make their target
[16:48] <popey> hope so
[16:49] <bigcalm> I say latest, was last week's edition I guess
[16:50] <bigcalm> Wonder how many subs they have received via uupc
[16:51] <diplo> I will sub once I've worked out if I can afford it or not with Xmas :)
[17:04] <TwistedLucidity> I am thinking of subbing when I get back...depending on how all the bills land.
[17:06] <TwistedLucidity> I may have to cancel a certain other sub....
[17:07] <daftykins> ooh-err this Mavericks upgrade seems to not work well with the WD My Book NAS we have for Time Machine backups
[17:08] <daftykins> looks like a new NAS might have to be acquired just to work with Mavericks =/
[17:09] <TwistedLucidity> daftykins: Whut? That seems rather....odd.....
[17:10] <daftykins> yeah it's quite quirky
[17:17] <popey> i ended up wiping both macs and installing mavericks clean
[17:19] <daftykins> that's how i've re-done this MBP
[17:19] <daftykins> although it's able to pull the backup off the time machine NAS - but i'm not very happy with the results
[17:19] <daftykins> i think i'll just copy and paste the user's data onto a backup drive, re-do the system as clean as possible then paste the data back on
[17:19] <daftykins> that way i get no legacy issues from the old snow leopard install
[17:20] <daftykins> but this NAS definitely seems to have had its' day
[17:20] <daftykins> it's working, but you have to trick it into letting you use it as a backup device, then it absolutely crawls
[17:20] <daftykins> it did maybe 300MB in half an hour
[17:49] <daftykins> popey: did you have issues with initial upgrade installs, or just didn't feel like it?
[17:59] <daftykins> https://www.dropbox.com/s/v5mwygag3ae7ovl/IMG_20131205_173712.jpg
[17:59] <daftykins> town lights are on in Guernsey
[18:19] <bigcalm> Current desktop background, I love variety: http://wallbase.cc/wallpaper/457019
[18:19] <MartijnVdS> nice one
[18:21] <bigcalm> Is it possible to search a git repo to find the commit that 1st introduced a variable into my code?
[18:23] <MartijnVdS> there's git blame for who touched it last
[18:23] <MartijnVdS> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1337320/how-to-grep-git-commits-for-a-certain-word
[18:23] <bigcalm> Not sure the variable name will be in the log
[18:24]  * bigcalm guesses the branch :)
[18:24] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: log -Sword also searches contents
[18:24] <MartijnVdS> or -Gword
[18:24] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: http://gitfu.wordpress.com/2008/06/03/the-pickaxe-finding-changes-was-never-easier/
[18:25] <bigcalm> Oh, ta
[18:26] <bigcalm> Haha, the variable was in a commit log!
[18:26] <MartijnVdS> *\o/*
[19:03] <popey> daftykins: i had an issue with one yes
[19:08] <diddledan> isn't a targ a form of creature? in which case I'm assuming targz is the plural?
[19:08] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Targ
[19:09] <diddledan> gotchabob
[21:37] <shauno> things like this make me wonder how much else in the news is entirely fictional; http://metro.co.uk/2013/12/04/romanian-farmville-gang-con-400000-from-government-with-fake-farms-4215956/
[21:39] <shauno> seen it reported in a few places, they've all done the same thing.  mis-translated "fictional cows" as "virtual cows", and then invented the rest
[22:00] <diddledan> shauno: they link to http://metro.co.uk/2010/04/07/farmville-user-hit-with-900-bill-playing-the-popular-facebook-game-225371/
[22:00] <diddledan> shauno: how did his account, first exist because he's under 13, and second have a valid credit card associated
[22:01] <daftykins> bad parenting
[22:02] <shauno> "and 288 of his own" .. what kinda 12yo has 288 quid laying around?
[22:03] <daftykins> one that saves up a lot
[22:05] <diddledan> lol : "Recently Bulgarian councillor Dimitar Kerin, a member of the Plovdiv Municipal Committee, was removed from a key committee because he couldn’t resist milking his FarmVille cows during important meetings."
[22:05] <diddledan> I wonder how much of that was mistranslated/made up
[22:14] <Myrtti> in case someone here is living in a bottle, Nelson Mandela has passed away
[22:15] <diddledan> the movie is perfectly timed to capitalise on the press coverage then
[22:15] <diddledan> has south africa imploded yet?
[22:20] <zleap>  Myrtti just read that on the bbc news site
[22:25] <daftykins> wow flybe are really withdrawing from the Channel Islands
[22:25] <daftykins> they're closing everything and axeing a lot of routes
[22:25] <mapps> why?
[22:26] <daftykins> cutting costs
[22:26] <mapps> everywhere and everything cutting costs and jobs;/
[22:28] <daftykins> indeedy
[22:28] <daftykins> i hope it doesn't increase cost to get to England
[22:29] <mapps> lfights are incredibly cheap across europe atm
[22:29] <mapps> so i guess it's to be expected either flights go up or they cut routes/jobs
[22:29] <mapps> like that nonsense about customers being able to sue if flights are over a certain amount late..well ..great people will sue..airlines put prices up to recoup those costs..people moan?
[22:30] <daftykins> people always find new ways to moan :D
[22:30] <daftykins> uh-oh am i doing it now D:
[22:30] <mapps> heh
[22:30] <mapps> im happy with how flights are atm
[22:31] <mapps> my flight to CZ was on time way there..early way back to Manchester
[22:31] <daftykins> but yeah Channel Island flights are the most expensive in the world per mile, apparently
[22:31] <mapps> ah
[22:31] <mapps> ;/
[22:31] <mapps> I paid like 300 quid for my flights to Holland and back including Hotel..dirt cheap
[22:31] <mapps> when you think it costs me 60+ for one way to Euston if i get a ticket same day
[22:31] <daftykins> how long did you stay?
[22:32] <mapps> not gone yet..only staying 3 nights (4 days) arrive 1pm friday leave 21;40 monday
[22:33] <shauno> flights are pretty ridiculous most places now.  what we really need next is a budget hotel revolution
[22:34] <map> my ticket from Stoke -stu
[22:34] <Guest32151> argh
[22:34] <Guest32151> stupid router
[22:34] <Guest32151> mapps> not gone yet..only staying 3 nights (4 days) arrive 1pm friday leave 21;40 monday
[22:34] <Guest32151> damnit
[22:35] <Guest32151> s
[22:35] <mappps> compare it to a train ticket 20 quid stoke-> manchester fligts are great value 60 quid or something to fly to Holland?
[22:38] <daftykins> if you book late it'll cost you £70 to get to Guernsey >_<
[22:39] <mappps> is Jersey chanel islands?
[22:40] <daftykins> yeah, it's south-east of me
[22:41] <mappps> yea i knew someone who lived there..company he worked for were there i think
[22:47] <daftykins> :)
[22:47] <daftykins> Jersey's more like little England though
[22:48] <daftykins> not true island life, heritage and culture like Guernsey
[22:48] <daftykins> ;D