[19:59] <knome> hello belkinsa, slickymaster, pleia2
[19:59] <pleia2> :)
[19:59] <belkinsa> o/
[19:59] <belkinsa> I still need to the scrollback
[20:00] <knome> well basically
[20:00] <knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FrontPageRefresh
[20:01] <knome> "what information should we have on this page, where should we link from this page and how to format it (and in which order)"
[20:02] <cprofitt> hello knome
[20:03] <slickymaster> o/
[20:03] <knome> hey cprofitt
[20:03] <belkinsa> Hey there cprofitt
[20:03] <slickymaster> hi cprofitt
[20:04] <belkinsa> The scrollback if any one wants to know what's is the issue: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6531375/
[20:05] <knome> since i have mostly only discussed with slickymaster, let me briefly introduce what my interest is
[20:05] <belkinsa> Yes, that would be a good idea.
[20:06] <knome> simply put, i want to make the front page *look* better
[20:06] <knome> i'm not familiar with the scope of the content on the wiki
[20:07] <knome> i've just moved topics from the current front page to the new front page
[20:07] <knome> i don't know if the signpost is a pet project of somebody
[20:07] <knome> if you think it's used a lot, let's keep it, but let's make it look better
[20:07] <knome> if it's not used, please by all means refactor it (and ask me to help), as long as we make the new thing look better
[20:07] <belkinsa> It's hard to say if it's being used without seeing the stats of it
[20:07] <knome> sure
[20:08] <knome> from my point of view, the signpost is confusing
[20:08] <belkinsa> I agree.
[20:08] <knome> and it seems to do assumptions that aren't necessary true
[20:08] <knome> for example, it assumes all power users want to become programmers
[20:08] <knome> nice idea, but...
[20:08] <knome> so back to the front page refresh itself;
[20:09] <pleia2> heh, "scope" is "everything anyone feels like writing about ubuntu that is not in the scope of the official docs"
[20:09] <knome> i want to make all usable resources more available for the users
[20:09] <belkinsa> And have it on the front page of the wiki?
[20:09] <knome> pleia2, sure, but what i meant is that i don't know how heavily the wiki leans on security, business environment or hardware issues
[20:09] <pleia2> so it's not actually possible to have an "an exhaustive list of all topics covered in this wiki"
[20:09] <knome> or how important those might or might not be
[20:10] <pleia2> knome: I don't think anyone does, people write about all kinds of things, importance varies based on what you need ;)
[20:10] <knome> my point is
[20:10] <belkinsa> Duh...yeah, I think it's possible to do it.
[20:10] <knome> i'm only interested in the looks.
[20:10] <knome> (not only, but think it that way, and you're close)
[20:10] <knome> that naturally does lead to other considerations
[20:11] <knome> like "is this information formatted nicely, and should we move the content around to make it better"
[20:13] <knome> so if i'm asking whether something is useful or not, it's because i would like to present it in a more sane way for the users
[20:14] <belkinsa> Knome, I agree with what you talking about and I think the work you have already done to the page is what is needed.  Just focus on the important topics that new/old users would need.
[20:14] <knome> for example, i think the signpost could be mostly split into "other resources" (which are scattered in other places as well, even in the front page "see also") and "ubuntu events" (which is more or less badly covered in the wiki, so could be dropped for the moment)
[20:15] <belkinsa> I like this idea.
[20:15] <knome> that being said, see  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FrontPageRefresh  now and find the other resources box in "more resources"
[20:16] <knome> yes, it links to a page that doesn't exist, but it should be relatively easy to build that page
[20:16] <knome> and extend as more resources are found in the wiki
[20:16] <knome> and ultimately i don't think that should be an exhaustive list of any resource ever available
[20:16] <knome> just the biggest and most useful ones
[20:17] <belkinsa> Yes, it can.  Maybe using a tag, if that's allowed, to build a list.
[20:17] <knome> the signpost lists #ubuntu-motu
[20:17] <knome> i don't know how useful that is from the bat to anyone who reads the wiki
[20:17] <belkinsa> I agree.
[20:17] <knome> rather try to point to #ubuntu and #ubuntu-devel (maybe)
[20:17] <knome> those channels can point to right resources
[20:18] <belkinsa> +1
[20:18] <belkinsa> Oh, by the way, welcome to the team, knome.
[20:18] <knome> they also point to ubuntu beginners
[20:18] <knome> is that team even active?
[20:18] <knome> ta ;)
[20:19] <belkinsa> I don't know.  I think they are disbanded.
[20:19] <belkinsa> Check in the channel?
[20:19] <knome> that was a rhetoric question
[20:19] <knome> any listing is prone to get outdated
[20:19] <knome> so let's try to keep them short
[20:20] <belkinsa> RIght.
[20:20]  * slickymaster thinks that that is is closed for awhile now
[20:20] <knome> unless it's something that's dynamically built from a resource that's always up-to-date
[20:20] <belkinsa> Yeah, that's the problem the wiki.
[20:21] <belkinsa> eagles0513875, you felt this issue of outdated info, right?
[20:21] <slickymaster> there are quite a few pages with outdated info
[20:22] <belkinsa> And that I want I somewhat brought up on the mailing list.
[20:22] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: correct
[20:22] <eagles0513875> whats up
[20:22] <eagles0513875> i think versioning of the docs would really help
[20:22] <slickymaster> a just a small amount of them have been tagged with the proper Tag/NeedsUpdating
[20:22] <eagles0513875> ill be back to discuss this shortly
[20:22] <belkinsa> knome is another person who thinks the wiki needs major work on
[20:23] <eagles0513875> hey knome
[20:23] <belkinsa> Scrollback: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6531375/
[20:23] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: ill read it now once i get things started at work
[20:23] <knome> hello
[20:23] <belkinsa> Okay
[20:23] <knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/OtherResources
[20:24] <belkinsa> I think the problem of outdated-ness could be fixed if we had someone that could be able to e-mail developers to give some docs on the new freatures.
[20:24] <belkinsa> Wow, the favours list needs to have all of the favours
[20:25] <knome> yeah, that's just what i gathered from the front pag
[20:25] <knome> and we need to format that page in a better fashion as well
[20:25] <belkinsa> So, this page a sandbox page?
[20:25] <knome> yep
[20:25] <belkinsa> Yes, we do.
[20:25] <knome> or, a draft really
[20:25] <belkinsa> Okay.
[20:25] <eagles0513875> knome: belkinsa i really think versioning would help and i think alfresco would come in handy
[20:25] <knome> once we get some amount of the most used resources listed, let's format that
[20:25] <eagles0513875> as it has its own built in wiki
[20:25] <knome> and start using it
[20:26] <belkinsa> +1
[20:26] <knome> eagles0513875, that's yet another tool though, right?
[20:26] <belkinsa> (to what knome said)
[20:26] <eagles0513875> yes knome
[20:26] <eagles0513875> i woudl need to create a juju charm for it if we want to deploy it
[20:26] <knome> why wouldn't we try to fix what we have now
[20:26] <eagles0513875> knome: its too much of a mess right now
[20:26] <eagles0513875> one perk with alfresco
[20:26] <knome> the technology isn't the problem
[20:26] <eagles0513875> one framework can have multiple projects
[20:26] <knome> the people are the problem
[20:26] <eagles0513875> knome:
[20:26] <eagles0513875> maybe so
[20:27] <eagles0513875> but we have version control of the docs
[20:27] <eagles0513875> and images
[20:27] <knome> i don't know how that would help
[20:27] <eagles0513875> so if we update a document and its not right we roll back to the previous version
[20:27] <knome> if the docs are outdated, they are outdated
[20:27] <belkinsa> Yes, people are the problem.  And I think we also have a major disconnection with other teams.
[20:27] <eagles0513875> that is on hold
[20:27] <eagles0513875> i think though duplication of the official wiki should be done
[20:27] <eagles0513875> official docs i mean
[20:27] <eagles0513875> and the copy of them be extended further
[20:28] <knome> actually, i think the community wiki shouldn't cover those issues in the official docs
[20:28] <knome> at most extend them
[20:28] <knome> but duplication is just... duplication
[20:28] <knome> and prone to getting outdated
[20:28] <slickymaster> +1 on that
[20:28] <knome> because nobody from the official docs is not going to update the help wiki
[20:28] <knome> and that's fair enough
[20:28] <knome> we should simply link in the official docs
[20:28] <belkinsa> Um, there are a part of this whole team.
[20:29] <knome> sure, socially... but not necessarily interested in the community help wiki
[20:29] <belkinsa> But o agree, they just focus on their niche and we focus on ours.
[20:29] <knome> yes
[20:29] <belkinsa> s/o/I
[20:29] <eagles0513875> knome: look at the postfix official doc's for 12.04 for instance and compare to that of the community
[20:29] <eagles0513875> official docs is so scant its unusuable
[20:29] <belkinsa> I know that pleia2 wants to correct that.
[20:29] <knome> and because of that, i think we should avoid duplication
[20:30] <pleia2> eagles0513875: we really need to fix the official docs
[20:30] <pleia2> eagles0513875: have you submitted bug reports for what is missing? if not, please please do
[20:30] <knome> that's where my area of interest ends... :)
[20:30] <pleia2> we don't want to keep adding to the wiki if the official docs aren't even complete, the official docs are the *core focus* of this team
[20:30] <eagles0513875> pleia2: no i have not thing is i dont bother to use them as i go back ot the community ones and bam i get things working
[20:30] <knome> yes, file bugs agaisnt the official docs, don't divert and try to "do it all better ourself"
[20:30] <belkinsa> Is there a way to have the offical docs updated for the system/sever docs as like a PPA and updates when its updated?
[20:30] <belkinsa> Sorry for being offtopic.
[20:31] <pleia2> eagles0513875: you're only really solving this for yourself and not helping the team :( please help us improve these docs
[20:31] <eagles0513875> that is the problem i see wiht the official docs
[20:31] <pleia2> the problem is that people won't submit bugs
[20:31] <eagles0513875> and im just as guilty on that front
[20:31] <knome> eagles0513875, we fixed the official xubuntu docs
[20:31] <eagles0513875> i wonder
[20:31] <eagles0513875> you got me wondering if we could on every page of the official docs put a link on how to submit a bug
[20:31] <belkinsa> Oh, is there a way to get people to know that they can summit bugs?
[20:31] <knome> eagles0513875, they are fantastic now, and since we put all our effort on that, we don't have too many pages in the community help wiki
[20:31] <eagles0513875> if someone finds one
[20:31] <knome> -> easier to maintain
[20:32] <eagles0513875> pleia2: i wasnt sure what to file against now i do know
[20:32] <pleia2> eagles0513875: there IS
[20:32] <pleia2> eagles0513875: see the footer of every single page in the server docs, for example I just clicked on one randomly https://help.ubuntu.com/13.10/serverguide/samba.html
[20:32] <belkinsa> Maybe a page in the docs for that could help users to bug things?
[20:32] <pleia2> "To report errors in this serverguide documentation, file a bug report."
[20:32] <belkinsa> Oh, never mind.
[20:33] <knome> same for the official docs
[20:33] <pleia2> yep
[20:33] <knome> To report errors in this documentation, file a bug.
[20:33] <belkinsa> Okay.
[20:33] <pleia2> I don't know how we can make this easier
[20:33] <knome> pleia2, file the bugs for the users so they don't have to
[20:33] <eagles0513875> is it worth filing bugs against 12.04 docs
[20:33] <belkinsa> Is the link to the LP included?
[20:33]  * knome hides under the hardwoord table
[20:33] <pleia2> knome: hehe
[20:33] <eagles0513875> pleia2: ^ see above
[20:33] <knome> belkinsa, yes, that's a link
[20:33] <pleia2> eagles0513875: yes, there is still a point release
[20:34] <eagles0513875> ok. i can already file a few
[20:34] <pleia2> eagles0513875: focusing on 14.04 would be better though
[20:34] <belkinsa> knome, thanks.
[20:34] <eagles0513875> but the problem is how often do updates be released for LTS docs
[20:34] <knome> yes, at the moment we should get the 14.04 docs in shape
[20:34] <pleia2> that's the next LTS, and in development now so much easier to get changes into now
[20:34] <pleia2> it's not really worth spending time on 12.04 at the expense of 14.04
[20:34] <eagles0513875> what will its documentation be based off of?
[20:35] <pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuServerGuide
[20:35] <pleia2> has instructions for checking out the current branch :)
[20:36] <eagles0513875> pleia2: i dont feel confident writing them
[20:36] <eagles0513875> would it be ok if i checked them out and filed bugs against them in case there are issues or areas that need improvement?
[20:36] <pleia2> eagles0513875: you don't have to, just download them so you can look at them
[20:36] <pleia2> yep, that's perfectly fine
[20:36] <knome> if you have the knowledge and time to write something for the docs, you should do that
[20:37] <knome> it can always be reviewed and verified by somebody else
[20:37] <knome> it's easier to review and merge than write
[20:37] <eagles0513875> knome: thing is I have alot on my plate
[20:38] <eagles0513875> from freelance work I have but I can provide improvements to the docs in the form of bugs
[20:38] <knome> eagles0513875, that's fine. i said "if you have the knowledge and time"
[20:38] <eagles0513875> atm if my mentor resurfaces i hope to continue learning how to package
[20:38] <eagles0513875> and package right
[20:38] <knome> i'm an entrepreneur and the xubuntu project lead but i'm trying to find time to help the docs team to get better
[20:38] <eagles0513875> knome: im an entrepreneur as well
[20:38] <eagles0513875> starting my own IT business and have a few projects for it as well
[20:39] <belkinsa> Thanks knome for joining.  We do need help for sure.
[20:39] <knome> i'm just saying we all have the time-constraints
[20:39] <belkinsa> We all do.
[20:39] <eagles0513875> atm trying to raise funds for a low cost PoS system using open source point of sales software :)
[20:39] <eagles0513875> using kubuntu 13.10 on this laptop which i use for development work etc
[20:40] <knome> eagles0513875, do you think you could use some of the time you have used to update the community help wiki to update the official docs instead?
[20:40] <eagles0513875> if you are telling me to focus on the official docs
[20:41] <eagles0513875> and pleia2 said they have managed to cut down on the number of pages the project shes on has i will focus on filing bugs against the official docs
[20:41] <knome> do you think you could also take the responsibility of writing some of the pages, or at least start the work on them so others could get motivated and help you?
[20:42] <eagles0513875> I can try
[20:42] <belkinsa> Sure.
[20:42] <belkinsa> If that was directed also to me.
[20:42] <eagles0513875> knome: thing is most woudl be copy and paste from the community stuff
[20:42] <eagles0513875> i think its high time i get on a vm of 14.04
[20:42] <knome> belkinsa, well anybody and everybody
[20:42] <eagles0513875> and teest setting things up on therwe
[20:42] <belkinsa> Okay, I figured, but I wante dto check
[20:42] <knome> eagles0513875, that's fine, as long as you double-check the validity and quality
[20:42] <eagles0513875> sry im juggling between work
[20:43] <knome> once it's in the official docs, we can look into dropping it from the community help to avoid duplication
[20:43] <eagles0513875> wait isnt there a really high barrier to entry with the official docs
[20:43] <eagles0513875> to join the team that is
[20:43] <pleia2> anyone can submit merge proposals
[20:43] <eagles0513875> knome: pleia2 the problem is try this out. google ubuntu postfix
[20:43] <eagles0513875> community stuff is found first
[20:43] <pleia2> actually joining the team means you have full editorial control to edit things directly, so yes there is a higher barrier there :)
[20:43] <knome> eagles0513875, let's fix that.
[20:43] <eagles0513875> what can be done to improve the search rankings of the official docs
[20:43] <belkinsa> Also, to create a sandbox branch is allowed too
[20:44] <eagles0513875> i think as well we need to look into improving SEO for the official docs
[20:44] <knome> eagles0513875, sounds fair; want to file a bug for that?
[20:44] <eagles0513875> knome: yes i will
[20:44] <eagles0513875> once i settle into work
[20:45] <knome> thanks
[20:45] <eagles0513875> juggling alot on my plate besides work tonight
[20:47] <eagles0513875> are their iso's available for 14.04 or one has to do a network upgrade?
[20:47] <knome> iso's have been available for a while already
[20:47] <pleia2> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/308/builds
[20:47] <pleia2> ^^ daily isos
[20:47] <eagles0513875> knome: i never know where to find them :)
[20:47] <knome> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/current/
[20:48] <knome> is always the newest daily ISO
[20:48] <belkinsa> cproffit: Is it possible to have a link to the program guide from the wiki to the search page for that program on AskUbuntu?
[20:48] <eagles0513875> qa site is way to confusing to work with
[20:48] <eagles0513875> lol
[20:49] <eagles0513875> ill do a network upgrade from 13.10 to 12.04
[20:49] <knome> it's very logical, but can look a bit daunting
[20:49] <eagles0513875> knome: just looking at it as we speak im finding it quite daunting
[20:49] <slickymaster> eagles0513875, http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily-live/20131206/trusty-desktop-i386.iso
[20:50] <knome> eagles0513875, there are people who can guide you through it if you are interested.
[20:50] <slickymaster> eagles0513875,  http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily-live/20131206/trusty-desktop-amd64.iso
[20:50] <eagles0513875> what would be the best for me to work with if im working on server side stuff
[20:51] <eagles0513875> desktop or server or can i use desktop anyway that way i can work on stuff for both?
[20:51] <knome> i'm not able to answer that
[20:51] <belkinsa> knome, I think your work on the pages could be translated for the other favours because I think the way you have them is easier to use than the old ones.
[20:51] <knome> belkinsa, other flavors?
[20:52] <belkinsa> The format is what I was referring to.
[20:52] <belkinsa> Like Ubuntu, Kubuntu, ect.
[20:52] <knome> i don't think the flavors have such help wiki's really
[20:53] <belkinsa> Oh.
[20:53] <belkinsa> But wouldn't be nice though?
[20:54] <knome> i can't speak for other flavors, but xubuntu doesn't need one
[20:54] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: in terms of kubuntu usually points back to ubuntu docs
[20:54] <belkinsa> Oh.
[20:54] <eagles0513875> the only seperation would be a wiki on kde i think if they even have one
[20:54] <belkinsa> Um...
[20:54] <belkinsa> Never midn.
[20:54] <belkinsa> But I still like that format.
[20:55] <belkinsa> I think it could be used for the Ubuntu front page, if possible,
[20:55] <eagles0513875> ha
[20:55] <eagles0513875> kubuntu just poinst to the ask page
[20:55] <knome> that's probably off our scope, and won't really happen
[20:55] <eagles0513875> http://www.kubuntu.org/support
[20:56] <knome> here's what we do with xubuntu: http://xubuntu.org/help/
[20:56] <belkinsa> They use a blog, don't they?
[20:57] <eagles0513875> http://www.kubuntu.org/community
[20:57] <eagles0513875> they dont even have a wiki actually
[20:57] <eagles0513875> just forums or even they link back to ubuntu forums
[20:57] <belkinsa> Wow.
[20:57] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: it makes sense though
[20:58] <eagles0513875> core is technically ubuntu
[20:58] <eagles0513875> DE is the only difference
[20:58] <belkinsa> Yeah, I know.
[20:58] <eagles0513875> hey mhall119
[20:59] <belkinsa> Sigh, sometimes i think "why am I in this team".
[20:59] <knome> because you are interested in docs, and ultimately want to make them better
[20:59] <eagles0513875> whats wrong belkinsa
[21:00] <belkinsa> Well, not really, I joined because of the MoinMoin editing skills that I have.  But maybe I do have a interested in the docs and having them easy to use.
[21:02] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: imho ease of use is important to documentation
[21:03] <belkinsa> True, true.
[21:06] <belkinsa> Maybe I should focus on that.
[21:06] <knome> whatever scratches your itch
[21:08] <knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FrontPageRefresh  is now clean of most of the weird stuff on the current front page
[21:10] <slickymaster> no more signpost :)
[21:10] <belkinsa> You guys are good now, right?
[21:10] <knome> yep.
[21:10] <knome> well, no, this is not where it ends.
[21:10] <belkinsa> Oh.
[21:10] <belkinsa> I meant good from my help.
[21:11] <knome> we should keep on working on the OtherResources page, for example
[21:11] <knome> if you have any feedback or ideas, they are still welcome
[21:11] <belkinsa> That newer one is cleaner and better.
[21:11] <belkinsa> I see and that works for me
[21:12] <belkinsa> godbyk, i like your idea!
[21:14] <slickymaster> got go, guys
[21:14] <slickymaster> cy
[21:14] <belkinsa> See ya
[21:15] <belkinsa> Thanks for coming to the channel to talk about this
[21:15] <slickymaster> np
[22:06] <godbyk> Just a reminder, the docs team is meeting in #ubuntu-meeting right now if you'd like to join us.
[22:48] <belkinsa> knome, I just noticed that that page is for the Ubuntu Community Help wiki, sorry!
[22:48] <knome> belkinsa, yes?
[22:49] <belkinsa> I thought that page was for the Xubuntu front page.
[22:51] <knome> nah.
[22:52] <knome> we don't do user-oriented stuff on wiki's
[23:17] <knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/OtherResources is mostly done. anybody have ideas on how to improve?
[23:47] <belkinsa> Awesome layout!
[23:48] <belkinsa> Though I think mailing-list should go a wiki page explaining what one is and have a link to the list.ubuntu.com, same with IRC, minus the channel list, but maybe the user support channels.
[23:50] <belkinsa> If there are pages on those.
[23:50] <bkerensa> ;)
[23:52] <belkinsa> knome, I thank  you for this. You just rock,