[00:18] <knome> ali1234, did you get your hands on the linux identity magazine already?
[00:20] <ochosi> ali1234: i never received a copy of that (weren't they sent out at some point?)
[00:21] <knome> ochosi, seriously? crap.
[00:21] <ochosi> yeah
[00:21] <knome> ochosi, do you want a paper copy?
[00:21] <ochosi> i forgot about it again
[00:21] <ochosi> well, if you have a digital copy, that's fine as well
[00:21] <knome> you should contact sonny...
[00:22] <ochosi> don't wanna waste paper or money for the post
[00:22] <knome> hmm.
[00:22] <knome> i might
[00:22] <ochosi> and it's ok, i know what i wrote ;)
[00:22] <knome> i have some non-final PDF exports
[00:22] <knome> i could see if i find the final version
[00:23] <knome> or ask sonny for one
[00:23] <knome> nah, i don't have
[00:23] <knome> maybe pleia2 has
[00:24] <ochosi> alrighty, i'm off, night everyone!
[00:24] <knome> nighty
[01:11] <bluesabre> slickymaster: looks good to me
[08:28] <ali1234> https://bugs.launchpad.net/indicator-network/+bug/1185565
[08:36] <ali1234> brainwash: what happens if you run this in a terminal: "init --user --startup-event indicator-services-start & xfce4-panel -r"
[09:20] <ali1234> brainwash: scratch that. try this: "initctl emit indicator-services-start && xfce4-panel -r"
[09:24] <ochosi_> ali1234: i presume this test is mostly valuable in trusty?
[09:24] <ali1234> ochosi_: only in trusty :)
[09:25] <ali1234> ochosi_: see #ubuntu-desktop
[09:27] <ochosi> ali1234: very cool of you to check that out now
[09:28] <ali1234> well i don't want us to get stuck on -gtk2 yet again because the -gtk3 indicators changed and nobody noticed
[09:28] <ali1234> we might have to distropatch this in though
[09:28] <ali1234> but hey, it's two lines
[09:30] <ochosi> why distropatch? is anyone outside ubuntu using indicators?
[09:30] <ali1234> yes, arch
[09:30] <ochosi> actually it might be interesting at some point to support gnome3 indicators
[09:30] <ali1234> has the full unity stack
[09:31] <ochosi> if that's at all possible
[09:31] <ochosi> ah, cool
[09:31] <ali1234> well, i'm not touching anything gnome3 :P
[09:31] <ochosi> ;)
[09:32] <ali1234> they will probably be written in javascript and html and require linking the panel against webkit
[09:37] <Unit193> ochosi: IIRC, Ubuntu hasn't even had a real release with gtk3 indicators...
[09:37] <Unit193> ali1234: Arch has everything, well almost, not sure if they got mir working.
[09:38] <ali1234> what do you mean?
[09:39] <ali1234> ubuntu has used exclusively gtk3 indicators since at least 12.04
[09:51] <ochosi> ali1234: quick question, for panel-switch's UI, would you want a mockup or something in glade?
[09:51] <ali1234> either
[09:51] <ali1234> i don't really know how to use glade
[09:52] <ochosi> ok
[09:52] <ochosi> well i can do something simplistic in inkscape then
[09:52] <ochosi> i presume you'll do a gtk3 UI?
[09:53] <ali1234> meh.
[09:54] <ali1234> you going to use gtk3 only stuff in the design?
[09:55] <ochosi> nah
[09:55] <ochosi> only standard widgets that exist in both worlds
[09:55] <ochosi> so theoretically you should be able to make it build with gtk2 and 3
[09:55] <ali1234> well it's python... there is no "build"
[09:57] <ochosi> ok
[10:02] <slickymaster> morning all
[10:08] <knome> morning slickymaster 
[10:08] <knome> slickymaster, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FrontPageRefresh
[10:08] <knome> ;)
[10:09] <slickymaster> hi knome, good morning
[10:09] <slickymaster> I'll take a more thorough look at home, tonight
[10:09] <slickymaster> but it looks much better
[10:09] <knome> sure
[10:10] <knome> not much has changed since the last time
[10:10] <slickymaster> well, it has now a more aesthetically appealing
[10:10] <knome> heh, yep
[10:11] <knome> do you have some time do discuss the content-related stuff now, or should we postpone that for the evening as well?
[10:11] <slickymaster> by the way, if you feel like wasting a few minutes of your time, https://code.launchpad.net/~slickymaster/ubuntu-manual-tests/mugshot/+merge/197873 is ready for review and possible merge
[10:11] <knome> ah, i could do that possibly later
[10:12] <slickymaster> I would prefer to do it after dinner, 21:00 UTC
[10:12] <slickymaster> is that good for you
[10:12] <knome> ok, that works
[10:13] <slickymaster> bluesabre already gave its ok to the test http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/12/06/%23xubuntu-devel.html#t01:11
[10:14] <knome> ah, cool
[10:14] <knome> then i should get to that a bit faster
[10:16] <slickymaster> I'm try to see if I can manage to finish http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=xfdesktop-docs by today
[10:17] <slickymaster> trying ^^
[10:17] <ochosi> slickymaster: sweet!
[10:17] <slickymaster> but it's not going to be easy
[10:17] <slickymaster> morning ochosi :)
[10:18] <knome> i believe the mugshot test is a completely new one?
[10:18] <slickymaster> I've already made same changes to http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=xfdesktop-docs:command-line
[10:18] <knome> ochosi, want to answer the user on #x?
[10:18] <slickymaster> yes its knome 
[10:18] <knome> ;)=
[10:18] <slickymaster> it is ^^
[10:18]  * slickymaster fingers are completely frozen
[10:19] <knome> heh, cold in there?
[10:19] <slickymaster> not like in Finland, but pretty damn cold for a mediterranean autumn  
[10:20] <slickymaster> right now 3º C
[10:20] <slickymaster> and the heating is broken at work
[10:22] <knome> awh
[10:22] <knome> i don't think it's *too* cold outside here either
[10:22] <knome> says +1 :)
[10:23] <slickymaster> :)
[10:28] <ochosi> ali1234: this is a very minimal starting point: http://imagebin.org/280849
[10:28] <ochosi> ali1234: the save button is supposed to save the current layout under a new name (so it's actually a save-as button)
[10:29] <ochosi> knome: in case you also wanna take a look at the mockup ^
[10:33] <knome> k
[10:38] <ali1234> yeah that's pretty much what i was imagining
[10:39] <knome> slickymaster, test for mugshot is merged and in the tracker
[10:50] <slickymaster> thanks knome, time to start https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1256898
[10:51] <ochosi> ali1234: for loading new layouts into the thing, i thought just DND it into the window
[10:51] <ochosi> at first i was also thinking about a reset button or something, but it's somehow too confusing
[10:51] <ochosi> (reset to what?)
[10:52] <ochosi> i guess something like a popup-dialog on the apply button saying "your current layout will be lost, really apply?" would be better
[11:01] <brainwash> ali1234: http://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?id=8481
[11:01] <ali1234> brainwash: yeah, fixed
[11:01] <brainwash> ali1234: should I test and emit the signal for the indicator or does it not work
[11:01] <ali1234> when thepatches get pulled
[11:02] <ali1234> brainwash: give it a try. it might act a bit funny though
[11:02] <ali1234> like the initctl command might hang
[11:02] <ali1234> if so just reload the panel on another terminal
[11:02] <brainwash> ok
[11:04] <ochosi> ali1234: want me to attach the mockup to the xubuntu-wiki page for panel-switch?
[11:05] <ali1234> sure
[11:06] <ali1234> brainwash: where did you see those errors about "No watchers"
[11:11] <brainwash> ali1234: xsession log
[11:11] <brainwash> so the command did get stuck, but it worked somewhat
[11:12] <brainwash> however, the nm-applet still showed up as gtkstatusicon
[11:13] <ali1234> yes, that is a different bug
[11:14] <brainwash> seems related
[11:14] <elfy> Unit193: not really sure what you mean 
[11:14] <elfy> hey brainwash 
[11:15] <brainwash> if my sync indicator is able to load properly, then nm-applet did also
[11:15] <brainwash> elfy: hi :)
[11:15] <ali1234> brainwash: see #ubuntu-desktop
[11:16] <brainwash> so back to dbus activation?
[11:17] <ali1234> not unless we patch it back in
[11:19] <ochosi> good you got a hold of tedg though
[11:20] <elfy> any logs for yesterday's meeting ochosi ?
[11:21] <slickymaster> here you go elfy http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-12-05-19.00.html
[11:21] <slickymaster> good morning ;)
[11:21] <elfy> ty slickymaster 
[11:27] <ochosi> ah, too late...
[11:28] <elfy> never too late ochosi - you would have :)
[11:38] <ali1234> brainwash: try putting INDICATOR_ALLOW_NO_WATCHERS=yes in /etc/environment and restart
[11:39] <brainwash> that var name :D
[11:39] <brainwash> let me test
[11:40] <ali1234> seems to work good for me
[11:49] <brainwash> ali1234: works
[11:55] <ali1234> brainwash: completely?
[11:55] <brainwash> seems so
[11:55] <ali1234> cool
[11:56] <ali1234> that's an easy fix then, and tedg agreed it is a bug and should get fixed
[11:56] <ali1234> infact i'm gonna do a branch
[11:56] <brainwash> yet another branch :)
[11:56] <ali1234> i just posted the gtk2 fix ppa on the bug report and ML thread
[11:57] <ali1234> brainwash: well this is a bug in libindicator3
[11:58] <brainwash> you are fixing so much stuff, you are really awesome :D
[12:29] <bluesabre> +1
[12:56] <ochosi> +1
[12:56] <ochosi> i'll start prepping our icon-theme with symbolic icons now for the gtk3 indicators...
[12:57] <ochosi> then at some point, we would be able to drop the -dark icon-theme-variant
[12:57] <ali1234> why?
[12:57] <ali1234> isn't that the default one?
[12:58] <ochosi> yeah, but it only makes stuff in the panel use bright icons
[12:58] <ochosi> so that if the panel bg is dark, you can still see them
[12:58] <ochosi> with symbolic icons, that's not necessary anymore
[12:58] <ali1234> isn't that what you want, if you have dark panels?
[12:58] <ochosi> depending on the theme-bg, the indicators will adjust
[12:59] <ochosi> (it uses the fg color of the panel/indicator widget to color the icon)
[13:00] <ali1234> i see, sounds good
[13:00] <ochosi> yeah, that's one of the *real* benefit of gtk3
[13:00] <ochosi> benefits
[13:01] <ochosi> cause that principle works everywhere, also in menus
[13:01] <ochosi> so e.g. if you have dark hover-color with dark icons in menus, that's not a problem anymore, the selected item/icon will just use fgcolor as if it were a font
[13:02] <bluesabre> ochosi: but we still have gtk2 system tray icons
[13:02] <ochosi> bluesabre: yes, i know, for that we will have to keep -dark around
[13:03] <bluesabre> :)
[13:03] <ochosi> but not necessarily set it by default anymore
[13:03] <ochosi> and luckily the indicators use different icon-names from e.g. xfce4-powermanager
[13:03] <ochosi> so powerman icons can be kept while indicator icons will be dropped and use -symbolic instead
[13:03] <ali1234> can't we just use indicator-power?
[13:04] <bluesabre> yes and no, I believe the xfce4-power-manager requires its system tray icon
[13:04] <bluesabre> we can hide the system tray, but xfce apps depend on it
[13:04] <ochosi> we can
[13:05] <ochosi> i have a patch for indicator-power that helps with xfce-powerman
[13:05] <ochosi> (i.e. going to power-settings opens xfce4-powermans settings)
[13:05] <ali1234> can you do anything about the spacing of systray icons? so they're not all squashed together, but equally spaced like indicators?
[13:05] <bluesabre> right, but you'll have two battery icons in your systray
[13:05] <ochosi> bluesabre: no, you can set the systray icon to "always hide" in powerman
[13:05] <bluesabre> ah
[13:05] <bluesabre> that works! :)
[13:05] <ochosi> ali1234: i can try to improve that, yeah
[13:06] <ochosi> ali1234: difference is: indicators are buttons, so they have more padding around them naturally
[13:07] <ali1234> http://imagebin.org/280886 <- also this
[13:07] <ali1234> this only seems to happen if xfce4-power-manager is the only icon in the systray
[13:08] <ali1234> seems to happen with any theme
[13:09] <ochosi> have you tried to use elementary-xfce there?
[13:10] <ochosi> cause for some odd reason, having a horizontally laying battery never worked for that trayicon (i know it sounds weird...)
[13:11] <ali1234> ah yeah that does fix it
[13:11] <ali1234> yeah this only happens with ubuntu-mono icons
[13:11] <ochosi> yeah, hmpf, not much i can do about that...
[13:11] <ali1234> plugin bug?
[13:11] <ochosi> you can take the battery-icons from elementary-xfce and copy them over to ubuntu-mono
[13:12] <ochosi> yeah i think it's a powerman trayicon bug
[13:12] <ali1234> it renders correctly if there's any other icons in the systray...
[13:12] <ali1234> probably something to do with the icon size
[13:12] <ochosi> ah hm
[13:12] <ochosi> probably
[13:12] <ali1234> i'll put it on the list
[13:24] <ochosi> gotta go, have a nice day everyone
[16:41] <knome> bluesabre, i guess you are fine in continuing in ~xubuntu-release until the release of 14.04?
[17:10] <slickymaster> I'm off
[17:10] <slickymaster> bbl
[19:28] <knome> slickymaster, ping
[19:28] <knome> slickymaster, rather here :)
[19:28] <slickymaster> there's something  I've noticed. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SwitchingToUbuntu/FromLinux hasn't been edited/updated since 201
[19:28] <slickymaster> 2010 ^^
[19:28] <knome> yep...
[19:29] <slickymaster> and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SwitchingToUbuntu/FromMacOSX also
[19:29] <knome> i guess that's a general problem for the wiki
[19:29] <slickymaster> yes, that's very true
[19:29] <knome> somehow, for me, the way the signpost is categorised, doesn't work
[19:30] <slickymaster> there's a lack of tags in dozens of pages
[19:30] <knome> i has the slight problem of guessing what people want
[19:30] <slickymaster> namely the Needs Updating tag
[19:30] <knome> by what argument do all power users wnat to become programmers?
[19:31] <slickymaster> I've faced that exact same problem with https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs
[19:31] <slickymaster> that was one of the reasons I've created a sort of a sand-box area for it
[19:31] <skellat> knome: I think that is a social issue in need of escalation so that we can best deal with Customer Execution
[19:33] <skellat> s/Customer Execution/Customer Service Execution/
[19:33] <knome> slickymaster, another thing that pops out is some of the warnings, ie in https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Sound
[19:34] <knome> slickymaster, shouldn't the warning be in the wikimarkup as a comment rather than something that's facing all users, even those who only want to read the wiki and do not even think about contributing
[19:34] <slickymaster> knome, yeaps, agree
[19:35] <slickymaster> even though I must confess that I've never came across that type of tag
[19:35] <knome> that's one some of the pages linked from the frontpage
[19:35] <knome> like Sound, Printers, InputDevices
[19:35] <slickymaster> hm hm
[19:36] <slickymaster> another link I have serious doubts about is https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Signpost/Answers#signpost
[19:36] <knome> well the signpost as a complete entity is a bit weird
[19:37] <knome> ultimately, just https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Signpost/Destinations could be modified to be a "list ofresources"
[19:37] <slickymaster> basically it leads to an almost dead end for someone not used to the wiki concept
[19:37] <knome> (and even that list isn't exhaustive)
[19:37] <knome> and that page is highly repetitive
[19:38] <knome> there should only be one howto; "how to connect to irc"
[19:38] <knome> then just telling the people to fill in the right channel
[19:38] <knome> or, the better, easier way,
[19:38] <knome> just link to the freenode webchat with channel details filled automatically
[19:39] <slickymaster> yes, 
[19:39] <knome> in the same way we are linking people to #xubuntu on our installer
[19:39] <slickymaster> one thing though I think you should consider is to add a link to http://ubuntu-manual.org/
[19:39] <slickymaster> for many people it's their gateway to *buntu
[19:40] <slickymaster> afk (back in a sec)
[19:41] <knome> well basically we should link all external/additional resources somewhere
[19:41] <knome> not only the ubuntu manual, but also say, the xubuntu documentation
[19:42] <slickymaster> once I agrre
[19:42] <slickymaster> agree
[19:42] <knome> where should that list be?
[19:42] <knome> well, meh
[19:42] <knome> that's a hard question
[19:42] <knome> if the ideal answer seems to be "at the top of the front page", that tells me the help wiki is crap
[19:43]  * slickymaster nods
[19:43] <knome> if it's at the bottom, the question is if we should list them all on the frontpage, or create another page for the resources (probably the better option)
[19:44] <slickymaster> and one thing must be considered IMO, which is the fact that the front page shouldn't be a continuous scroll  of items
[19:45] <slickymaster> that would contradict its concept, the way I see it
[19:45] <slickymaster> I would go with your second option, creating another page just for resources
[19:47] <slickymaster> are you not considering adding any references to touch devices?
[19:47] <knome> the help topics -section shoud be edited and extended as needed
[19:48] <knome> i've just copied over all the things that were in the current front page
[19:49] <slickymaster> you mean extended on the front page itself? in the existent table?
[19:49] <knome> yep
[19:49] <knome> say there was a completely new category of hardware
[19:49] <knome> the blingbling devices
[19:49] <knome> one should simply add that to the listing as appropriate
[19:50] <slickymaster> but aren't you afraid that might cause an incredible growth on the page size?
[19:50] <knome> ultimately, all the content should be "alive" and editable by people who know the wiki content
[19:50] <knome> if it grows, maybe the main categories should be rethought
[19:52] <slickymaster> my fear is that the page easily can became a huge sheet where people will have to go through a non-stop scroll to get to the Find your way... for instance
[19:52] <knome> heh.
[19:52] <knome> sure.
[19:52] <knome> i guess we need to rethink that once i get the rest of the page reformatted
[19:52] <knome> we can look at a better way to format the topic list as well
[19:53] <slickymaster> yes, it's a tricky thing to balance design conception and pragmatic contents
[19:54] <knome> not sure if all the descriptions are needed in the frontpage as they are now
[19:54] <knome> but ultimately, (again) i want to leave those considerations to the people who know the (scale of the) content in the wiki
[19:54] <slickymaster> you mean the second column in the tables?
[19:54] <knome> yes
[19:55] <slickymaster> well but any sort of description ought to be present
[19:55] <knome> well
[19:55] <knome> consider this
[19:55] <knome> Printers
[19:55] <knome> Setting up and using your printer
[19:55] <knome> isn't that obvious?
[19:56] <slickymaster> no argues with that one :)
[19:56] <knome> we could split the list in three paragraphs
[19:56] <slickymaster> but building software, on the other hand, might not be so accessible 
[19:56] <knome> sure
[19:57] <belkinsa> Hey all, I heard you have a wiki issue.
[19:57] <slickymaster> some of therm can be shortened
[19:57] <slickymaster> hi belkinsa 
[19:57] <knome> hullo
[19:57] <slickymaster> you should talk with knome 
[19:57] <belkinsa> Okay, skellat is passing me on the scrollback.
[19:57] <knome> o/
[19:58] <knome> i don't have an "issue" as it is,
[19:58] <slickymaster> afk
[19:58] <knome> i'm working on refreshing the help wiki front page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FrontPageRefresh
[19:58] <pleia2> and knome is scared of #ubuntu-doc
[19:58] <pleia2> :P
[19:58] <knome> no, not really
[19:58] <pleia2> really should be having discussions there
[19:58] <knome> i just want to limit the channel amount
[19:59] <knome> but ma, wasn't me who started the discussion!
[19:59] <belkinsa> Yeah, if it's a doc issue.
[19:59] <knome> and -doc was quite quiet the last time i told i was working on that
[19:59] <knome> for days
[19:59] <knome> then i parted.
[20:02] <skellat> knome: belkinsa has been looking at tagging issues herself in the wiki
[20:02] <skellat> You two should discuss together perhaps
[20:03] <knome> my focus of interest isn't the tagging or the content itself as much as the way the information is laid out
[20:03] <skellat> knome: Which is still part of her domain of concern
[20:03] <knome> sure...
[20:07]  * skellat wanders off to get some tea
[23:23] <knome> jjfrv8, hey, ping me when you're around
[23:33] <bluesabre> knome: sure thing, hopefully I'll be helpful with it :)
[23:35] <knome> oki, then i'll extend your membership