[00:05] <belkinsa> At least we are trying to fix the issue of branding the Community Help wiki.
[00:09] <cprofitt> some images are good... others just increase load times
[00:10] <knome> i guess i could optimize the png's we're using on the frontpage
[00:10] <knome> i'll do that some time in the near future
[00:10] <cprofitt> it is not taking long to load for me
[00:10] <cprofitt> so they appear to be pretty good right now
[00:10] <knome> me neither, but it can always be faster
[00:10] <cprofitt> they are very small
[00:11] <knome> cprofitt, did you look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PasiLallinaho/DocumentationTeam/MenuBar already?
[00:11] <cprofitt> I think they are good... they fit the current Ubuntu themse as well
[00:11] <belkinsa> I like them
[00:11] <knome> yep, they are from the official pictograms list
[00:11] <belkinsa> I figured.
[00:12] <cprofitt> Looking at the menu bar now... had not looked at it yet
[00:12] <cprofitt> looks nice
[00:12] <knome> should i just go and replace the current one with that?
[00:12] <knome> i guess the only big change is that there is no "home" (instead, the icon leads to the home page)
[00:13] <belkinsa> Oh, cprofitt, (sorry for bugging you about this) has my suggestion about having the main wiki page to a program linked to the search of AskUbuntu?
[00:13] <belkinsa> been used?
[00:14] <belkinsa> knome: that might not be obvious for everyone.
[00:14] <cprofitt> knome: I like the lines in the original... but that is a taste thing.
[00:14] <cprofitt> I also think the home should not just be an icon... unless the other items are icons too
[00:14] <cprofitt> two different methods for navigation may confuse people
[00:15] <belkinsa> Agreed.
[00:16] <cprofitt> I made the image go to home and had a text link on the New York Page
[00:16] <cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewYorkTeam
[00:17] <cprofitt> belkinsa: I am not sure if the askubuntu link has been discussed
[00:17] <cprofitt> we should ask for that...
[00:17] <belkinsa> To the AskUbuntu folks?
[00:17] <cprofitt> well... ask for the askubuntu team to discuss the idea with us
[00:17] <cprofitt> I have not talked to them about it yet
[00:17] <belkinsa> Okay, thank you for the update.
[00:18] <belkinsa> That could also help us to figure what pages we need and don't need based on the AskUbuntu folks.
[00:18] <cprofitt> I will try to ask around... but I think we should discuss exactly how we would want that too look
[00:18] <belkinsa> Okay.
[00:19] <cprofitt> I would want to get their input on how they see their site meshing with the community help wiki
[00:19] <cprofitt> to ensure there is no feeling of competition
[00:19] <belkinsa> Okay.
[00:20] <belkinsa> Thank you again.
[00:22] <cprofitt> belkinsa: do you use askubuntu?
[00:22] <belkinsa> Once in awhile
[00:23] <belkinsa> I just don't like the fact that there are lot of easy to look up questions by newbies that could be found in the wiki if we had a good running one
[00:23] <belkinsa> Or maybe your suggestion
[00:24] <belkinsa> And that's why I questioned redundancy in support for Ubuntu and programs in the list.
[00:24] <knome> different people like using different methods to get help
[00:24] <belkinsa> I know
[00:25] <cprofitt> belkinsa: redundancy is only bad when there are conflicts that cause confusion
[00:25] <knome> even if same questions are answered in multiple places, it's not by definition redundant
[00:25] <belkinsa> Okay, I see.  English is not my first.
[00:26] <knome> cprofitt, updated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PasiLallinaho/DocumentationTeam/MenuBar
[00:26] <belkinsa> But what cprofitt said I think that's the issue that I'm seeing with the wiki being a bad form of support.
[00:26] <knome> i guess we could add some border lines or slightly different bg colors for each other item
[00:27] <cprofitt> belkinsa: any resources, wiki or ask... can become bad if it becomes out of date
[00:29] <cprofitt> its a bit like having forums and discourse
[00:29] <belkinsa> Duh.  I think something is just bugging me about the wiki and AskUbuntu that might just be one of those It's-Only-Me  issues.
[00:29] <cprofitt> http://discourse.ubuntu.com/
[00:29] <belkinsa> And forums and mailing lists and IRC
[00:29] <cprofitt> belkinsa: no, no... it doesn't bug just you
[00:29] <belkinsa> I know, I use discourse for Ubuntu Ohio things
[00:29] <cprofitt> askubuntu looks to be better because it is newer
[00:30] <cprofitt> give it three years and it will have out-of-date stuff too
[00:30] <belkinsa> RIght, right.
[00:30] <cprofitt> clean-up of old stuff is a large issue
[00:30] <cprofitt> I have not seen a good solution for it yet
[00:30] <cprofitt> Microsoft, Apple, Novell and other companies have all had the same issue
[00:30] <belkinsa> Management is better though on AskUbutu, isn't?
[00:31] <cprofitt> heck Microsoft has technet articles that link to deleted content
[00:31] <belkinsa> M$
[00:31] <belkinsa> Boo.
[00:31] <cprofitt> belkinsa: I do not think so... I have not seen any auto-expiration on Aks Abuntu
[00:31] <cprofitt> it is a document life cycle issue
[00:31] <belkinsa> Ah.
[00:32] <belkinsa> Auto-expiration would be nice but that could lead to problems
[00:34] <cprofitt> It could...
[00:35] <cprofitt> most document lifecycle solutions I have seen have an automated process to remind about review and update
[00:35] <cprofitt> and only archive the document if it is not updated by a certain date
[00:35] <belkinsa> And MoinMoin doesn't have the feature for this?
[00:36] <belkinsa> And also have a automatic "archived" tag.
[00:36] <cprofitt> not sure... I can research that
[00:36] <knome> cprofitt, like the striping on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PasiLallinaho/DocumentationTeam/MenuBar better?
[00:37] <knome> belkinsa, my idea of tagging things with the creating/major review month would also help with that issue
[00:38] <belkinsa> cprofitt: and if so, we can propose that idea to the list.
[00:38] <cprofitt> +1
[00:38] <belkinsa> knome: looking better
[00:39] <cprofitt> Yeah... that makes it easier to read knome
[00:40] <cprofitt> there may be some way for IS to reun a script and determine the age of pages... not sure
[00:40] <knome> cprofitt, as on the mailing list, that will only result the last change
[00:40] <knome> which might be a typo fix or other really small one
[00:41] <belkinsa> But that requires a ticket to them and knome's comment.
[00:41] <knome> tagging the page when a good review was done would be more helpful to actually know how old pages are
[00:41] <belkinsa> But then again, if we need it for the good, then we should ask them
[00:42] <knome> we can already see the last changes dates
[00:42] <knome> but that's not helpful in many of the cases
[00:42] <knome> i guess the first thing to do is decide if we want to keep pages that have information for releases that are not supported
[00:43] <belkinsa> +1
[00:43] <cprofitt> knome: exactly
[00:43] <knome> like https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Oracle10gDapper
[00:44] <cprofitt> it would be a really nice feature to have the last five editors sent an email that the page has not been updated in the last 12 months
[00:44] <knome> cprofitt, imagine my proposal...
[00:44] <knome> we could just check all pages that have a tag 2012Dec or anything before
[00:44] <cprofitt> knome: that page was marked for deletion a long time ago
[00:44] <knome> yes...
[00:44] <knome> but it's still on the wiki.
[00:44] <cprofitt> knome: yes, I liked your suggestion
[00:45] <knome> somebody needs to take action
[00:45] <knome> if you ACK, i can go through all the pages that are marked for deletion >1 year ago
[00:45] <knome> but no crying we lost something then ;)
[00:45] <belkinsa> Action, as action item?
[00:46] <belkinsa> Or is this for the wiki admins only.
[00:46] <knome> action as in "get it done"
[00:46] <belkinsa> Ah, right.  DUH.
[00:46] <cprofitt> anyone have an issue with that page being deleted...
[00:46] <cprofitt> it is very old and out of date
[00:46] <knome> well that's not the only page
[00:46] <knome> and if we're looking for consensus for every page, it's going to take ages
[00:46] <belkinsa> I know some of the tagged pages need to be deleted because they say so.
[00:46] <belkinsa> Agreed.
[00:47] <knome> so either somebody who has the time and knowledge should carefully go through them and either delete or mark them for other actions
[00:47] <knome> or somebody should just go and remove all marked pages.
[00:47] <belkinsa> Second one
[00:47] <belkinsa> In the first place, then the first.
[00:48] <cprofitt> I can go through them... but may lack the knowledge on some
[00:48] <cprofitt> I just deleted that page
[00:48] <knome> if the second.. then there is no doing the first
[00:48] <belkinsa> Which one?
[00:48] <cprofitt> I do apologize - I was not aware most of the team had vanished and I was the only one
[00:48] <belkinsa> Oh.
[00:48] <cprofitt> the oracle one
[00:49] <knome> cprofitt, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag/Deletion/List
[00:49] <knome> cprofitt, start with grepping "dapper" on that list...
[00:49] <belkinsa> Also, I think we need to clean up the wiki admins team of the inactive one
[00:49] <cprofitt> knome: yep... I have stayed aware from deletions in the past dues to it being frowned upon when I was just starting out
[00:49] <belkinsa> First three can be deleted for sure
[00:49] <cprofitt> I always left that to the more senior folks
[00:50] <knome> cprofitt, i'm all for deleting pages that discuss dapper, or other long-not-supported releases
[00:50] <cprofitt> belkinsa: yes... we do there are some inactive people that need to be removed.
[00:50] <knome> i know others disagree, but meh.
[00:51] <belkinsa> How many admins are still active anyways?  I can think of four.
[00:52] <cprofitt> the LP team has expiration dates on several of them...
[00:52] <knome> not the oldest ones though
[00:52] <cprofitt> I think all but the owner should have expirations that allow people to renew
[00:52] <belkinsa> When was that changed?
[00:53] <belkinsa> +1
[00:53] <cprofitt> looks like in 2012
[00:53] <cprofitt> I will talk with mdke about it...
[00:53] <belkinsa> Is the owner still active?
[00:53] <cprofitt> he is around, but not sure he is active
[00:53] <belkinsa> Thank you.
[00:53] <knome> mdke just did some stuff, but as i proposed, we should make CC the owner for that team.
[00:53] <cprofitt> he did respond to the list about how to make people admins
[00:53] <cprofitt> and editors
[00:54] <belkinsa> If it really four active folks I think there should a call for a few more, if possible.
[00:54] <knome> if it's four *active* ones, we're doing great :)
[00:55] <knome> if it's four "active" ones, then maybe we should call for a few more.
[00:55] <belkinsa> Yeah, but that might not be enough.
[00:55] <belkinsa> I been thinking about it but I don't have the skill to know what to delete.
[00:56] <cprofitt> I think we need to work to get more people active...
[00:56] <knome> i think we should get more people to contribute to the low-level activities first
[00:56] <belkinsa> Or that too.
[00:56] <cprofitt> I think admins around 4 is good, but there is a need for more with editor privs
[00:56] <belkinsa> But first figure out who is still around
[00:56] <knome> the first step would be making CC the owner of that team
[00:56] <cprofitt> yes,... getting more people just reviewing and tagging would be fantastic
[00:56] <belkinsa> Editors can see the changes and approve them, right?
[00:57] <knome> then ask somebody in the CC (like pleia2) make all the people expire from the team
[00:57] <knome> including the admins!
[00:57] <belkinsa> pleia2 had the idea of Tagging Jams.
[00:57] <belkinsa> +1
[00:57] <knome> because owner is always an admin.
[00:57] <cprofitt> knome: I can raise the CC question with the CC when we meet next Thursday
[00:57] <knome> even if the owner wasn't a member of the team.
[00:57] <knome> cprofitt, that would be good
[00:57] <cprofitt> tagging jams would be cool
[00:57] <knome> cprofitt, you happen to be in the CC as well? :)
[00:58] <cprofitt> Yes
[00:58] <knome> cool.
[00:58] <knome> and then, not so cool
[00:58] <belkinsa> We could organize one soon.
[00:58] <knome> small amount of people doing lots
[00:58] <cprofitt> why not so cool?
[00:58] <cprofitt> true...
[00:59] <cprofitt> but I am very focused on increasing the number of people learning to take on roles in the community
[00:59] <knome> yep, not doubting that
[00:59] <belkinsa> I'm the same, it seems.
[00:59] <belkinsa> Since most of my work seems to fall into the community part
[00:59] <cprofitt> It is amazing to think that several of us all were once on a team known as the Ubuntu Beginners Team
[01:00] <belkinsa> And that's a dead team now, right?
[01:01] <cprofitt> belkinsa: it is a team that is no longer
[01:01] <cprofitt> it started with a broad based of people, but only a small number stayed active
[01:02] <belkinsa> Okay, I think it's removed from the team list
[01:02] <cprofitt> and as we took on leadership in other parts of Ubuntu we were unable to handoff leadership to others
[01:02] <cprofitt> it was one of the key points were I realized we had to do more as a community to encourage people to grow in to leadership positions
[01:02] <belkinsa> Good move.
[01:04] <belkinsa> Sigh, maybe I should get training on what to delete and apply to the admins team.
[01:05] <knome> we need low-level contributors as well.
[01:06] <knome> if we don't have those, there's no need for admins.
[01:06] <belkinsa> True, true.
[01:06] <cprofitt> +1
[01:07] <belkinsa> I don't know why I joined the team.  Maybe just because of my MoinMoin skills that I use in Ubuntu Women.  Though I can put those in power, but I might need to find a set of pages to work on.
[01:07] <cprofitt> alright just deleted the Beagle wiki pages
[01:08] <knome> nice work
[01:08]  * knome is cheering for cprofitt
[01:08] <knome> only 118 to go
[01:08] <belkinsa> \o/
[01:08] <cprofitt> yeah... had I known I was the only wiki admin active I would have reviewed these before
[01:13] <cprofitt> looks like the Acer One docs should be updated...
[01:13] <cprofitt> what do you guys think...
[01:13] <belkinsa> I think those moved or something
[01:13] <cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AspireOne
[01:14] <cprofitt> there are articles about old unsupported versions...
[01:14] <cprofitt> but I believe Acer is still producing machines under that moniker
[01:14] <belkinsa> Don't know,
[01:14] <belkinsa> ask in forums or something?
[01:15] <cprofitt> there are questions on Ask Ubuntu about the models using 13.04
[01:15] <belkinsa> But no wiki pages?
[01:16] <knome> cprofitt, i removed the outdated upgrade instructions
[01:16] <cprofitt> yeah... wiki pages end at 10.04
[01:17] <knome> cprofitt, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag/Unsupported/List
[01:17] <knome> cprofitt, also interesting list.
[01:17] <cprofitt> yep
[01:17] <knome> there's lot of the same pages then in delete list
[01:18] <belkinsa> Okay, I think it could be deleted.
[01:18] <knome> maybe those which appear in both could be simply deleted?
[01:18] <belkinsa> +1
[01:18] <cprofitt> we likely need to adopt a policy in regards to when pages should be deleted
[01:18] <belkinsa> +1
[01:18] <cprofitt> I will be updating the Joomla pages
[01:18] <belkinsa> That's what is needed.  A policy,
[01:19] <cprofitt> wish we could get reports on how much these pages are viewed
[01:19] <cprofitt> that would help with making some decisions too
[01:19] <belkinsa> Agreed.
[01:20] <belkinsa> But that's another ticket, but a well needed one.
[01:20] <cprofitt> potentially tracking these deletions with launchpad as bugs would help raise awareness
[01:20] <belkinsa> That could work.
[01:21] <knome> sounds like a lot of work for really old pages
[01:21] <cprofitt> I would only do it moving forward
[01:21] <belkinsa> +1
[01:21] <cprofitt> I allows us to track the work as the rest of the projects do
[01:21] <cprofitt> bugs for updates and deletions
[01:24] <cprofitt> personally I think all unsupported version tagged pages should also have needs updating or candidate for deletion marks
[01:25] <cprofitt> depending on which way things are leaning
[01:25] <belkinsa> Agreed.
[01:25] <knome> so in that case, shouldn't we just delete all pages that have both the unsupported and delete tags?
[01:25] <belkinsa> And the updating ones could have some flow that is easier to read.
[01:25] <cprofitt> just tripped over this page...
[01:25] <cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AcerAspire1410
[01:25] <cprofitt> that is way out of date
[01:26] <belkinsa> That can go.
[01:26] <knome> hmm, useful!
[01:26] <belkinsa> Oh, wait, never mind
[01:26] <belkinsa> Needs updating tag, if possible, on that page
[01:26] <cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Aspire1810TZ/Karmic
[01:26] <cprofitt> it points to that page which does not exist
[01:27] <knome> delete the page.
[01:27] <cprofitt> I think deletion might be better
[01:27] <belkinsa> Okay, I agree.
[01:27] <belkinsa> Maybe that could be also a perimeter what can be deleted.  What other pages are linked in it.
[01:31] <cprofitt> this page has been given a bit of care
[01:31] <cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AspireOne522
[01:32] <belkinsa> Keep it, too recent.
[01:32] <cprofitt> yep
[01:32] <cprofitt> I am
[01:32] <cprofitt> it shows that other models could have been udpate too though
[01:32] <belkinsa> Cool
[01:33] <knome> cprofitt, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EncryptedRootonDapperUsingLUKS :P
[01:33] <cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AspireOneAOD250
[01:33] <cprofitt> same as that one
[01:34] <cprofitt> knome: I think we should redirect that
[01:34] <belkinsa> +1
[01:34] <cprofitt> if there is a page that handles that topic for recent releases
[01:34] <belkinsa> But the Dapper one can go
[01:35] <knome> this is where i disagree with people moest
[01:35] <knome> *most
[01:35] <knome> really, a redirection? :)
[01:36] <cprofitt> It depends... for dapper I would not redirect
[01:36] <belkinsa> Sigh, no standards.
[01:36] <knome> EncryptedFilesystemUsingDm-CryptOnDapper
[01:36] <knome> EncryptedFilesystemUsingLUKSandRemovesKeysOnDapper
[01:36] <knome> EncryptedRootonDapperUsingLUKS
[01:36] <knome> i would simply delete all those pages.
[01:36] <cprofitt> I guess really we would only go back to 12.04 for a redirect
[01:36] <cprofitt> the issue is the page might be linked too
[01:37] <knome> from another outdated resource?
[01:37] <cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EncryptedFilesystems
[01:37] <belkinsa> knome: Go a head
[01:37] <cprofitt> yes
[01:37] <cprofitt> an outdated page that needs to be updated
[01:37] <belkinsa> +1
[01:37] <belkinsa> Wait. Never mind.
[01:38] <cprofitt> at times even Google
[01:38] <cprofitt> https://www.google.com/#q=Encrypted+File+Systems+Ubuntu
[01:38] <belkinsa> First linkk is that page
[01:38] <knome> deleted those
[01:38] <knome> second for me, but sure
[01:39] <cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EncryptedFilesystemHowto2
[01:39]  * cprofitt facepalms
[01:39] <cprofitt> that is for 5.10
[01:39] <knome> ;)
[01:39] <belkinsa> Damn!
[01:40] <belkinsa> Off with its head!
[01:40] <cprofitt> is any of the information still valid
[01:40] <belkinsa> Right.
[01:40] <belkinsa> Duh.
[01:40] <cprofitt> this is one of those area in which I do not know
[01:40] <belkinsa> Same
[01:40] <cprofitt> so it might still work in 13.04
[01:40] <belkinsa> Who might though?
[01:41] <cprofitt> I do not know
[01:41] <belkinsa> Maybe a call on a mailing list is needed or something.
[01:41] <cprofitt> I think we mark it for needs update and push it to the mailing list
[01:41] <belkinsa> Okay
[01:41] <cprofitt> that area is a mess though
[01:41] <cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EncryptedFilesystemHowto3
[01:42] <cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EncryptedFilesystemHowto1
[01:42] <cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EncryptedFilesystemHowto
[01:42] <cprofitt> oops
[01:42] <cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EncryptedFilesystemHowto2
[01:42] <belkinsa> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EncryptedFilesystemHowto1 is not a page
[01:42] <cprofitt> yes, 1 is not
[01:42] <cprofitt> meant to type 2
[01:42] <cprofitt> it goes 2 - 7
[01:42] <cprofitt> 8
[01:42] <cprofitt> even
[01:42] <belkinsa> Dang.
[01:42] <belkinsa> And those needs a rewrite
[01:43] <cprofitt> a merge and a re-write
[01:43] <belkinsa> First person, no-no.  Right?
[01:43] <cprofitt> no need for 9 total pages all covering roughly the same thing
[01:43] <belkinsa> Agreed.
[01:43] <cprofitt> yes, first person really should not be used in documentation
[01:44] <knome> this is the help wiki though, not documentation
[01:44] <knome> ;)
[01:45] <belkinsa> Yes.
[01:45] <knome> cprofitt, do you thikn we'd lost much if you deleted 2-9?
[01:45] <cprofitt> knome - maybe not... but I would push this to the list first
[01:45] <cprofitt> perhaps say --
[01:46] <cprofitt> we found these pages -- they appear to be out of date, but a great deal of work was put in to them
[01:46] <knome> from my POV, there's always space for variation and moving bits
[01:46] <knome> if they look to be really close to each other, it probably isn't worth it to save them all
[01:46] <cprofitt> if someone withc knowleged on the subject could work on merging/updating them it would be appreciated
[01:46] <belkinsa> Maybe lump them in one sandbox page?
[01:46] <belkinsa> Or that.
[01:47] <cprofitt> In order to clean things up we will review this again in 30 days
[01:47] <belkinsa> That works.
[01:47] <knome> would probably be easier to write a new page from scratch
[01:47] <cprofitt> and delete all but one page (hopefully an updated page)
[01:47] <cprofitt> knome: I agree
[01:47] <belkinsa> +1
[01:47] <cprofitt> but I find having the old one to make me think about what needs to be covered helps
[01:48] <knome> sure
[01:48] <cprofitt> I am keeping the Joomla page around while I create the new one
[01:48] <belkinsa> Yeah, some base to work off of.
[01:48] <belkinsa> That's the point of sandboxes.
[01:48] <cprofitt> I should do that tonight
[01:49] <cprofitt> turn this http://ftbeowulf.wordpress.com/2013/10/06/joomla-on-ubuntu-server-13-10/
[01:49] <cprofitt> in to a wiki article
[01:49] <cprofitt> I did that when 13.10 was still not released
[01:49] <knome> joomla article on a blog running wordpress... oops :)
[01:49] <belkinsa> Idea: maybe the wiki admins and the wiki folks could have monthly jams to get the wiki cleaned up.
[01:49] <cprofitt> lol
[01:49] <cprofitt> I think we should talk to the loco council about organizing a global wiki jam event
[01:50] <belkinsa> I have tried.
[01:50] <belkinsa> Well, in the LoCo Contacts list
[01:50] <cprofitt> belkinsa: I want to go straight to the council
[01:50] <cprofitt> and work with jorge as well
[01:50] <belkinsa> Oh/
[01:50] <knome> cprofitt, ping skellat.
[01:50] <cprofitt> +1 knome
[01:50] <cprofitt> skellat will help us out
[01:50] <belkinsa> I can get him
[01:51] <belkinsa> I told him
[01:51] <cprofitt> thanks skellat
[01:52] <cprofitt> I was about to ask you to come over here
[01:52] <cprofitt> thanks for joining us
[01:52] <skellat> How may I serve you?
[01:52] <cprofitt> we were just discussing the potential of organizing a global wiki doc jam
[01:52] <cprofitt> and thought we should discuss with the loco council
[01:52] <knome> skellat, i'd like a blanket and some hot chocolate
[01:52] <skellat> knome: At this hour that would have to be ICBM-launched, you know :-)
[01:53] <knome> hehe
[01:53] <cprofitt> skellat: Amazon might lone you a drone
[01:53] <belkinsa> And maybe do this for every cycle.
[01:53] <skellat> Okay
[01:53] <belkinsa> If needed.
[01:53] <cprofitt> I think every cycle could be useful
[01:53] <cprofitt> if nothing else help tag article that need to be updated for the new release
[01:54] <knome> once the wiki is in better shape, regular maintaining should keep us in a relatively good shape
[01:54] <belkinsa> And to get others to work on updating those pages.
[01:55] <belkinsa> Those who have those technical skills for those programs.
[01:55] <cprofitt> skellat: I think the good thing is that we have a very dedicated and active group of people interested in working on developing the framework for an event
[01:55] <skellat> First question: What do you want to have as the outcome for wiki doc jam #1?
[01:55] <cprofitt> likely to need to do some classroom time -- or Google Hangout stuff
[01:55] <knome> outcome?
[01:56] <skellat> knome: Results
[01:56] <cprofitt> I think every jam would have to have a training component - get new people trained on how to assist with the Wiki
[01:56] <belkinsa> A cleaner wiki then what we have?
[01:56] <knome> one thing i could think of is getting the pages marked for deletion either deleted or updated
[01:56] <cprofitt> overall goal is to have a up to date wiki
[01:56] <belkinsa> That too of cprofitt's idea.
[01:56] <knome> (a practical goal)
[01:56] <cprofitt> a) get people trained on how to help
[01:56] <skellat> Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic, Time-bound
[01:57] <knome> other one is to tag/categorize all pages
[01:57] <cprofitt> are you breaking out SMART on my skellat
[01:57] <cprofitt> :-)
[01:57] <belkinsa> Yes, and that can get others to fix them.
[01:57] <knome> then we could look at some reorganization
[01:57] <skellat> cprofitt: :-)
[01:58] <cprofitt> belkinsa and knome
[01:58] <cprofitt> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMART_criteria
[01:58] <knome> the current way how things work seems to be "throw a page in the root"
[01:58] <cprofitt> check that out for what skellat is looking for
[01:58] <belkinsa> Oh, right, SMART.
[01:58] <knome> i think i have proposed a few that fit the SMART definition ;)
[01:58]  * skellat admits he spent some time in the private sector
[01:59] <cprofitt> skellat: Boy Scout training covers that
[01:59] <knome> now now, let's not go into the private sectors ;)
[01:59] <belkinsa> xD
[01:59] <cprofitt> I think skellat is correct that we need to develop something that fits SMART
[01:59] <cprofitt> it will make it easier to move forward
[01:59] <belkinsa> +1
[02:00] <knome> cprofitt, "either delete or update all pages marked for deletion" ?
[02:00] <skellat> I do follow the ubuntu-doc e-mail discussions
[02:00] <skellat> There is frankly a ton that could be done
[02:00] <cprofitt> just knowing that the idea is interesting to the LoCo council is a good enough to get started thing
[02:00] <belkinsa> That works.
[02:00] <cprofitt> yes, the mailing list will work for follow up
[02:00] <skellat> I'm always in favor of good documentation
[02:00] <knome> after that we should have like 1-100 less pages to maintain/worry about.
[02:00] <cprofitt> we will likely start a mail thread on it tonight
[02:00] <cprofitt> skellat: there is a cubic butt-tonne of stuff to do on the wiki
[02:00] <knome> i'm likely to hit the sack soon, but i'll get to it tomorrow
[02:00] <belkinsa> Um, it's not documentation, skellat.
[02:01] <cprofitt> knome: I can write the kick-off email tonight
[02:01] <knome> i'll gladly let you lot do it :)
[02:01] <skellat> belkinsa: For LoCo Council, the wiki **is** our documentation
[02:01] <skellat> At least in regards to our pages
[02:01] <belkinsa> Oh, right.  But for support, that's a different story.
[02:01] <knome> i guess there are some documentationish parts
[02:02] <skellat> Yep
[02:02] <knome> and some flavors seem to maintain their documentation there as well
[02:02] <skellat> Kubuntu has been doing that somewhat, if memory serves, then translating their stuff back to Docbook
[02:02] <knome> weird workflow, but whatever works for people
[02:03]  * belkinsa nods
[02:03] <skellat> knome: We have the most conventional docs workflow over in Xubuntu land
[02:03] <knome> yes
[02:03] <knome> courtesy of knome ;)=
[02:03] <belkinsa> xD
[02:03] <skellat> Okay
[02:03] <knome> but yeah, i'm off to bed
[02:03] <cprofitt> so we will work on this a bit skellat
[02:04] <belkinsa> skellat, thanks for for your help here
[02:04] <knome> it's 4am and my head hurts
[02:04] <belkinsa> knome: night.
[02:04] <cprofitt> and then try to give a proposal to the LoCo council
[02:04] <cprofitt> night knome
[02:04] <knome> great
[02:04] <knome> see you later:)
[02:04] <skellat> cprofitt: At this point, it may be best to triage down to your three most burning issues and then pick one or two you will want to have something done on
[02:04] <cprofitt> yep, I agree
[02:05] <skellat> We just had another US state LoCo fall into the Council's ownership today
[02:05] <skellat> Which means we own 2 now
[02:05] <cprofitt> skellat: which one?
[02:05] <skellat> Massachusetts
[02:05] <cprofitt> ouch
[02:05] <belkinsa> What happened?
[02:12] <skellat> I sent out a bunch of Verification bug notices last night and that usually tells us when Points of Contact are no longer Points of Contact.
[02:13] <skellat> Please don't forget to also ask individual communities to gauge their interest in participating in a docs jam.
[02:14] <skellat> If there is nothing else, I have an SRU bug I need to get back to starting the write-up on...
[02:14] <belkinsa> I see.
[02:14] <belkinsa> I think we are good now.
[02:14] <belkinsa> Thank you again
[02:14] <cprofitt> skellat: yes, I can ping the loco list
[02:15] <cprofitt> thanks skellat
[02:28] <cprofitt> belkinsa: know about this page
[02:28] <cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/IconsPage
[02:30] <belkinsa> That can go.  I remember updating a link somewhere to the new Icons Page.
[02:30] <cprofitt> I think we need to update it
[02:31] <cprofitt> unless there is a new one
[02:31] <belkinsa> There is.
[02:31] <cprofitt> there is a better one on wiki.ubuntu.com
[02:31] <belkinsa> Give me a sec
[02:31] <cprofitt> not sure if those are connected though
[02:31] <belkinsa> yeah, it's that one.
[02:31] <belkinsa> I think
[02:31] <cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IconsPage
[02:32] <cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IconsPage/32pixel
[02:32] <belkinsa> Yes, that one.  But I will check something first
[02:32] <cprofitt> I started the 32 pixel page
[02:32] <cprofitt> good to see it is still there
[02:32] <belkinsa> But is it needed?
[02:32] <cprofitt> I think the help.ubuntu.com/Community one should likely be updated
[02:33] <cprofitt> and only have icons used for the help wiki
[02:33] <cprofitt> I like the 32 pixel page because it organized things to a specific size
[02:33] <cprofitt> which made it easier to keep things consistent
[02:33] <belkinsa> That could work.
[02:33] <belkinsa> Because I fixed a page with that issue here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2013-September/017743.html
[02:33] <cprofitt> the main icons page was all over the place
[02:34] <belkinsa> And used that link from the ubuntu.com one
[02:34] <belkinsa> Because it was outdated
[02:34] <cprofitt> I am just not sure if the two wikis are hosted together...
[02:34] <cprofitt> if not lining the icons may be more difficult
[02:34] <belkinsa> Another ticket to IS?
[02:35] <cprofitt> attachment:IconsPage/IconUbuntu.png
[02:35] <cprofitt> No, not ticket to IS
[02:35] <cprofitt> I think we just have to test...
[02:35] <belkinsa> Yeah, that's been a question of mine.  Why the two wikis?   I know is one is support and the other is for other things, but is it needed?
[02:35] <cprofitt> and if it does not work we can manually edit the icons page
[02:35] <belkinsa> Okay, that works.
[02:36] <cprofitt> I think they are
[02:36] <cprofitt> wiki.ubuntu.com is for teams/people
[02:36] <cprofitt> help.ubuntu.com is for help
[02:36] <belkinsa> I hope most things aren't scattered.
[02:37] <cprofitt> they should not be...
[02:37] <belkinsa> Unless some users messed up like me.
[02:38] <cprofitt> those things can always be fixed
[02:38] <belkinsa> Right
[03:19] <cprofitt> anyone want to review a candidate
[03:19] <cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/Joomla
[03:19] <cprofitt> to replace
[03:19] <cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Joomla
[03:20] <cprofitt> I think we point them to official documentation for administering the site
[03:20] <cprofitt> Joomla's official documentation
[03:20] <cprofitt> Atamira: hello
[03:25] <Atamira> after cprofitt
[03:25] <Atamira> brb. system restart after an update
[03:25] <cprofitt> k
[03:29] <cprofitt> Atamira: I just updated this
[03:29] <cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Joomla
[03:33] <Atamira> mmm. that could be helpful
[03:33] <Atamira> i might give that a go
[03:33] <Atamira> once i get rid of half the files on this pc
[03:34] <cprofitt> cool
[15:59] <cprofitt> hello all
[15:59] <knome> hey cprofitt
[15:59] <cprofitt> knome: did you catch my email to the list about the global jam?
[16:00] <knome> yep
[16:00] <cprofitt> what are your thoughts?
[16:00] <knome> sounds good
[16:05] <knome> we should start discussing different policies on deleting/renaming pages
[16:05] <cprofitt> yes, we should
[16:11] <cprofitt> I really like the suggestion from Wesley to do a main page then have sub pages for specific versions too
[16:12] <knome> yep
[16:13] <cprofitt> so, we want to revise and discuss standards for help.ubuntu.com/community
[16:14] <cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki
[16:14] <cprofitt> likely starting with this page
[16:18] <cprofitt> knome: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki/Tasks/Organization
[16:19] <knome> yep.
[16:19] <knome> that's not explicit on the subpages
[16:19] <cprofitt> we might want to revise that page
[16:20] <cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide
[16:20] <knome> there should be a clear outline of the subpages we want
[16:20] <cprofitt> that page would be important too
[16:21] <knome> http://pad.ubuntu.com/NEBLAcp4eo
[16:22] <knome> one of my questions is if we want to do rewrites?
[16:22] <knome> and for how long
[16:22] <knome> or should we keep them forever?
[16:23] <knome> because in that case, why bother renaming
[16:23] <cprofitt> I agree... I would not want to rename.
[16:24] <knome> i kind of would.
[16:25] <knome> ultimately, people will find the new pages.
[16:25] <knome> and if it's nicely organized, even more so
[16:25] <knome> and easier to maintain as well
[16:25] <cprofitt> true... I wonder if instead of rename -- do a redirect though
[16:26] <knome> redirects are meh as well
[16:26] <knome> if we want to do them, fine
[16:27] <knome> but that means we will need to keep the wrongly named pages as long as we have the redirects
[16:27] <cprofitt> true
[16:28] <cprofitt> or perhaps say rename for six months
[16:28] <knome> that's a compromise, but...
[16:28] <knome> is that really necessary?
[16:28] <cprofitt> we really need to have standards set for how to move, redirect, delete
[16:28] <knome> people will keep linking to the old pages for that 6 months
[16:28] <cprofitt> knome: I am not sure... it depends on how much stuff is linked to it
[16:28] <cprofitt> again -- getting some traffic statistics would help
[16:28] <knome> then when we delete the redirect...
[16:29] <cprofitt> if I have a page with 3 visits delete
[16:29] <knome> internal linking is the smallest problem we have tbh
[16:29] <cprofitt> if I have a page with 3000 visits... not sure I want to lose the traffic
[16:29] <knome> the bigger problem is getting the external links updated
[16:29] <cprofitt> yes, internal linking should work itself out
[16:29] <cprofitt> the external ones are the ones I am nervous about
[16:29] <knome> if there's 3000 visits, the people will be able to find the new page
[16:29] <cprofitt> particularly if 'official docs' link to external content on the community wiki
[16:30] <knome> because ultimately, formatting the pages in better structure makes them more findable
[16:30] <cprofitt> I would not want an end user to click on a link in official system docs and get page not found
[16:30] <knome> and even more ultimately...
[16:30] <knome> we wouldn't need any categories
[16:30] <knome> because the parent page works as a category
[16:30] <knome> it's relatively easy to check the official docs for links to the community help wiki
[16:31] <knome> so i wouldn't be worried about that either
[16:31] <cprofitt> I think we really need to break this down in to bite size chunks
[16:31] <cprofitt> and decide what goes first
[16:31] <cprofitt> try to get three of the chunks done by 14.04 release
[16:31] <cprofitt> and then define three more
[16:32] <knome> :)
[16:32] <cprofitt> this appears to be large and over whelming when you look at it as a whole
[16:32] <knome> once we get the policies up, people can proceed even faster
[16:32] <knome> i like those challenges.
[16:32] <belkinsa> Will whatever is being talked about be posted in the mailing list?
[16:32] <knome> but only as long as you are allowed to go ahead at some point :)
[16:32] <cprofitt> so chunk 1)  Develop policy regarding new strucutre
[16:32] <cprofitt> 2) Create top level pages for new strucutre
[16:33] <knome> i'm actually quite sure those exist already
[16:33] <knome> pleia2, ping
[16:33] <cprofitt> the policy?
[16:33] <knome> 2)
[16:33] <hannie> hi guys (and girls). I just read the emails about structuring the pages. Good idea. I just follow this conversation out of interest.
[16:34] <belkinsa> They may, but just not being actively used.
[16:34] <cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Hardware
[16:34] <cprofitt> hardware does
[16:34] <knome> hannie, welcome lurking
[16:34] <hannie> :)
[16:34] <belkinsa> Hello there, hannie.
[16:34] <cprofitt> but that is OLD
[16:34] <cprofitt> hello hannie
[16:34] <belkinsa> True, true.
[16:34] <knome> cprofitt, i'm thinking a lot of the structure is laid out in the topics on the front page
[16:34] <knome> cprofitt, if you get what i mean...
[16:35] <cprofitt> +1
[16:35] <knome> or if not, then the front page needs updating :)
[16:35] <belkinsa> +1
[16:35] <cprofitt> take a look at the Hardware section...
[16:35] <slickymaster> hi hannie
[16:36] <hannie> hi david
[16:36] <cprofitt> with the proposal you made would we need the Drives and Partitions to be
[16:36] <cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Hardware/DrivesAndPartitions
[16:36] <cprofitt> instead of what it is currently?
[16:36] <belkinsa> Not a page,
[16:36] <belkinsa> Oh, wait.  Never mind.
[16:37] <cprofitt> do we need a tag then to help find all the Hardware related pages?
[16:37] <knome> cprofitt, not sure if "partitions" has anything to do with hardware...
[16:37] <cprofitt> ... we currently use a category right?
[16:37] <knome> CategoryHardware, it looks like
[16:38] <cprofitt> knome: that is the other issue -- how many things are vague and might belong in two areas
[16:38] <cprofitt> the categories allow for that
[16:38] <knome> well partitions and encryption do not belong in hardware
[16:38] <cprofitt> true
[16:38] <knome> they should have their own area somewhere else
[16:38] <cprofitt> though they are related
[16:38] <knome> and that could be surely linked from the drives-hardware area
[16:40] <cprofitt> so what is our first step or goal?
[16:40] <cprofitt> update the wiki guide?
[16:40] <knome> i would say that needs to be updated as we go
[16:40] <cprofitt> well... that would be second I guess
[16:41] <cprofitt> first we have to agree on the new structure
[16:41] <cprofitt> then upgrade the guide
[16:41] <knome> that
[16:41] <cprofitt> adjust as we go
[16:41] <knome> the other thing is to delete pages as we go.
[16:42] <hannie> Could the categories be in sync with Ask Ubuntu?
[16:43] <cprofitt> hannie: possibly
[16:43] <cprofitt> we would have to look at those
[16:43] <knome> hannie, is there a page that lists those?
[16:43] <hannie> I'll have a look...
[16:43] <cprofitt> http://askubuntu.com/tags
[16:43] <cprofitt> there are a cubic butt-tonne of them
[16:44] <hannie> cprofitt, nice
[16:44] <cprofitt> we could use some of those, but not all
[16:44] <knome> ah, the tags
[16:44] <hannie> agree, too many
[16:44] <knome> i don't think that helps with creating the structure
[16:45] <hannie> I think it could. Just leave out all the version tags and use the main categories
[16:46] <knome> how do you filter the main categories out?
[16:46] <knome> there's a tag called 'nautilus'
[16:46] <knome> that's far from what we wish to use
[16:46] <hannie> you could make a tag "file managers"
[16:47] <knome> or just nautilus under the software
[16:47] <belkinsa> Syncing the categories would be nice for AskUbuntu, too.
[16:48] <knome> cprofitt, the software is going to be one nasty thing to structure.
[16:48] <cprofitt> yep
[16:48] <cprofitt> I added the goal to the wiki page I created last night
[16:48] <cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki/WikiJamDraft
[16:48] <cprofitt> does that work?
[16:49] <knome> yes
[16:49] <belkinsa> I like it.
[16:50] <hannie> Software is too general. You can break that down in sub-categories
[16:50] <belkinsa> +1
[16:51] <knome> i'll be back in an hour at most. i'll start working on the proposed structure then.
[16:51] <knome> (stay tuned!)
[16:51] <cprofitt> knome: thanks
[16:51] <hannie> knome, see you
[16:51] <cprofitt> anyone can contribute to the ether pad page
[16:51] <cprofitt> hannie belkinsa and slickymaster
[16:51] <belkinsa> Yes?
[16:52] <belkinsa> Oh, right, right, I know.
[16:52] <slickymaster> yes
[16:52] <cprofitt> feel free to add to the etherpad
[16:52] <hannie> still present ;)
[16:52] <cprofitt> lol
[16:52] <cprofitt> I truly appreciate all the activity, good ideas and effort guys
[16:52] <slickymaster> I'm just catching up on the mails from this weekend (dozen of them)  ;)
[16:53] <cprofitt> slickymaster: yes, it is good to have dozens of them
[16:53] <hannie> I am glad to see the docs team revive
[16:53] <cprofitt> these have all been very positive too
[16:53] <slickymaster> well, I'm used to
[16:53] <cprofitt> sometimes when you get dozens of them its just a flamewar
[16:53] <slickymaster> knome, keeps es very busy in the xubuntu teams
[16:53] <belkinsa> Thank you cprofitt for getting us going again
[16:53] <slickymaster> +1
[16:54] <cprofitt> I deserve no credit
[16:54] <hannie> 60 emails this morning...
[16:54] <cprofitt> knome is the one who kicked the tires...
[16:54] <cprofitt> I just heard the noise and woke up
[16:54] <cprofitt> :-)
[16:54] <belkinsa> Oh, right, knome got us going.
[16:54] <belkinsa> Thanks knome!
[16:54] <belkinsa> But you helped.
[16:55] <cprofitt> Thanks... I do what I can.
[16:55] <hannie> I have to go. See you later. Keep up the good spirit :)
[16:55] <cprofitt> with three little ones it is at time rough
[16:55] <cprofitt> see you later hannie
[16:55] <slickymaster> cy hannie
[16:55] <belkinsa> Later hannie
[16:56] <cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpWikiQualityAssurance
[16:57] <belkinsa> That's still useful, right?
[16:57] <cprofitt> I think it is a bit old, but gives us some history
[16:57] <cprofitt> I think the current tag system was a result of that
[16:57] <belkinsa> Yeah
[17:02] <cprofitt> belkinsa: take a look at the top of the Etherpad... that is the proposed strucutre from knome
[17:03] <belkinsa> Did I do something wrong?
[17:03] <cprofitt> no, not at all
[17:04] <cprofitt> I just wanted to make sure you had seen that
[17:04] <belkinsa> I have seen it.
[17:04] <cprofitt> cool
[17:04] <belkinsa> My edits are in that green color.
[17:04] <belkinsa> Edits/thoughts*
[17:04] <cprofitt> still thinking about it
[17:05] <cprofitt> just updated the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki/WikiJamDraft
[17:05] <belkinsa> Same, and multitasking.
[17:05] <cprofitt> this is a very large project and we have to ensure we break it up in to little bites
[17:06] <belkinsa> Right.
[17:06] <cprofitt> so we can find success by not getting lost in larger things that never seem to finish
[17:06] <cprofitt> particularly as we look for others to assist -- things have to be very obviously easy to accomplish
[17:07] <belkinsa> Agreed.  I know that we need some technical folks in to make calls.
[17:09] <belkinsa> I Tweeted something about us: Thanks to knome, @indigo196, and the rest of the wiki editting folks of the #Ubuntu Doc Team for working on getting the wiki cleaned up!
[17:11] <pleia2> hehe, taking saturdays off sure means I miss a lot sometimes!
[17:11] <cprofitt> thanks
[17:11] <pleia2> busy day yesterday :)
[17:11] <cprofitt> hey pleia2
[17:11] <cprofitt> yeah... I was home with a sick boy so I had a bit more time than planned
[17:11] <pleia2> knome: pong
[17:11] <cprofitt> I had to skip random hacks of kindness
[17:11] <belkinsa> Hey pleia2.  We been busy this weekend in here.
[17:11] <cprofitt> knome said he would be out for a bit
[17:11] <pleia2> cprofitt: aw, bummer, hope he's feeling better
[17:11] <cprofitt> he is
[17:12] <cprofitt> he is upstairs playing minecraft
[17:12] <cprofitt> I am making him earn game time by working on Python programming
[17:12] <knome> i'm really afk, but do you have an hour or so today for a quick sprint?
[17:12] <pleia2> cprofitt: hehe
[17:12] <pleia2> knome: probably, on?
[17:13] <belkinsa> The pad if you want to help working on structure of wiki pages: http://pad.ubuntu.com/NEBLAcp4eo (to pleia2)
[17:13] <knome> pleia2, whatever works for you. 19UTC?
[17:13] <belkinsa> knome started it.
[17:13] <pleia2> knome: sure, but I meant what about? :)
[17:13] <knome> pleia2, aha :)
[17:13] <knome> pleia2, about the community help wiki restructuring and setting some policies regarding deleting/renaming/redirecting
[17:14] <pleia2> today was supposed to be spent working with one of the partimus folks on a lubuntu iso for one of our schools, but much schedule chaos on his side
[17:14] <knome> pleia2, and "expiring" pages
[17:14] <pleia2> knome: ok, I thought the current documentation on all of that was pretty clear
[17:14] <knome> pleia2, not really...
[17:14]  * pleia2 looks at the pad
[17:15] <knome> and there isn't really active admins in addition to us and cprofitt, and maybe somebody else
[17:15] <pleia2> yeah
[17:15] <pleia2> hey look at that, I got added to editors while I was day offing
[17:15] <knome> the current documentation sets some general guidelines, but doesn't explicitly define anything
[17:15] <knome> pleia2, as i said, lots of wiki admin goodness ;)
[17:15] <knome> pleia2, the front page is also updated.
[17:16] <pleia2> great
[17:16] <knome> let's kick the stuff going seriously, like we did with the xubuntu docs and much more
[17:17] <pleia2> we should talk about it ;)
[17:17] <knome> nah.
[17:24] <cprofitt> alright... gotta be afk for a while -- lunch time and time to spend with the kids
[17:24] <pleia2> enjoy
[17:27] <slacker_nl> cprofitt: thnx (re my suggestion ;))
[17:29] <belkinsa> Did I miss anything?
[17:32] <pleia2> cprofitt went to lunch :)
[17:32] <belkinsa> Okay.
[17:32] <belkinsa> Somehow I can't connect to my Yahoo account with Thunderbird.  It seems to timeout and I have restart my computer.
[17:35] <pleia2> I didn't even realize yahoo offered that
[17:37] <belkinsa> Most E-mail services allow it.  But somehow the retention rules don't stay what they should be.
[17:37] <pleia2> last I looked, pop access was a paid feature for yahoo
[17:37] <belkinsa> Well, the popular three.
[17:37] <pleia2> I guess they've finally entered the 21st century :)
[17:37] <belkinsa> They have.
[17:37] <belkinsa> But I use the other one
[17:57] <belkinsa> Does anyone know how useful this New Docs thing is (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs)?
[17:58] <slickymaster> belkinsa, :)
[17:59] <slickymaster> belkinsa, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs was started in the UF and it's still, and continuously a WIP
[17:59] <belkinsa> I see.
[18:00] <slickymaster> we started it earlier this year, in January to be exact
[18:00] <belkinsa> I like the idea of the most popular pages.
[18:01] <belkinsa> Maybe that could be tied in what we are planning to do with the wiki clean up.
[18:01] <slickymaster> and we aimed  it to be  user friendly and fast work resource, enabling users of all skill levels to find the information they need to become proficient with their operating system of choice.
[18:01] <slickymaster> yes
[18:03] <belkinsa> Okay.  Are you planning to add a link to the front page of the Community Help wiki?
[18:03] <slickymaster> belkinsa,  there's something I've created there which is the https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ToBeReviewed
[18:04] <slickymaster> please take a look because it's something that we're also talking' about as it addresses the outdated issue of a lot of pages in the wiki
[18:04] <belkinsa> Sure.
[18:04] <slickymaster> yes, I'm planning on adding that link
[18:06] <slickymaster> belkinsa, just FYI and in case you're interested https://launchpad.net/~newdocs
[18:07] <belkinsa> That's what caught my eye, is the LP link to the NewDocs.
[18:07] <slickymaster> ah, okay :)
[18:07] <belkinsa> Is there a requirement to join?
[18:08] <slickymaster> no, just hit the link. I'll be more then glad to welcome you
[18:08] <belkinsa> Okay, thank you.
[18:09] <knome> pleia2, ping. i'm available if you are
[18:09] <slickymaster> it's a major gain for the all team to have you aboard
[18:11] <pleia2> knome: what, it's not 19 yet
[18:11] <knome> pleia2, i know! sick, isn't it
[18:11] <pleia2> hehe
[18:11] <knome> wife has gone to work, i have my tummy full
[18:11] <pleia2> I am arguing with people on the internet, give me a few minuts
[18:11] <knome> sure :)
[18:12] <belkinsa> slickymaster: I joined.
[18:12] <knome> slickymaster, what's 48HourUpdating?
[18:12] <slickymaster> belkinsa, you honor us with your presence
[18:12] <belkinsa> Thank you.
[18:13] <belkinsa> You do all of your work via the mailing-list?
[18:13] <slickymaster> yes, so far
[18:13] <belkinsa> Okay.
[18:13] <slickymaster> before the creation of the team it was done through PM in the UF
[18:14] <slickymaster> and some of it through http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2110857
[18:14] <belkinsa> I saw the thread.
[18:15] <slickymaster> you asked about 48HourUpdating
[18:15] <belkinsa> No, knome did.
[18:15] <slickymaster> I must confess that I'm not aware of what that is.
[18:16] <slickymaster> where did you saw ity?
[18:16] <knome> in the title index.
[18:17] <slickymaster> don't have the slightest idea of what it is
[18:18] <slickymaster> oh wait
[18:18] <slickymaster> yes I know
[18:19] <belkinsa> slickymaster: should I introduce myself to the list of the NewDocs team?
[18:19] <slickymaster> that's the sandbox area that https://launchpad.net/~taurusone (who originally came up with the idea of NewDocs)
[18:20] <slickymaster> when he first started to make his editing in the wiki
[18:20] <slickymaster> belkinsa, yes you could do that, I think the team would appreciate taht
[18:21] <belkinsa> Okay.
[18:23] <knome> pleia2, i've been removing "personal" pages from the wiki
[18:23] <pleia2> what's a personal page?
[18:23] <knome> those are either really useless and/or really old
[18:23] <knome> example: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DavidDecotigny
[18:24]  * slickymaster hopes that knome won't wipe out his from the face of the wiki :)
[18:24] <knome> slickymaster, if you have a personal page... move it to wiki.ubuntu.com while you can ;)
[18:25] <knome> nah, i've kept pages that seem to be somewahat carefully crafted and updated in the last 3 years
[18:25]  * slickymaster one is already ther
[18:25] <slickymaster> there ^^
[18:25] <knome> that'd make all of the 0 pages
[18:25] <knome> pleia2, did you look already?
[18:25] <pleia2> knome: so my only concern is that this will demotivate people, I'd suggest a process more like: email person whose page it is to move to wiki.ubuntu.com, explaining that it doesn't belong on help.ubuntu.com, delete it in 2 weeks
[18:26] <knome> most of them are "last edited" in 2008, by "localhost" (wiki migration clearly)
[18:26] <knome> i don't have any concerns, or guilty over removing people's pages
[18:26] <slickymaster> afk
[18:26] <knome> i guess that's why i'm the right person to do this :P
[18:26] <belkinsa> +1 to pleia2's idea.
[18:26] <pleia2> knome: deleting pages is bad :(
[18:26] <knome> yes, i am bad
[18:27] <pleia2> a lot of people really don't understand the difference between the wikis
[18:27] <knome> as i said
[18:27] <knome>  i've kept pages that seem to be somewahat carefully crafted and updated in the last 3 years
[18:27] <knome> all 0 of them.
[18:27] <pleia2> heh
[18:27] <knome> no, seriously.
[18:27] <knome> they. aren't. needed.
[18:27] <pleia2> ok ok
[18:28] <pleia2> but if we do find current ones, let them know :)
[18:28] <knome> most definitely
[18:28] <knome> or actually,
[18:28] <knome> i will just move them to wiki. ...
[18:28] <knome> and let them know then.
[18:28] <knome> IF i meet those pages ;)
[18:29] <knome> such pages should be against the community wiki rules
[18:29] <knome> i'm not kidding... :)
[18:29] <knome> pleia2, did you finish arguing with (other) people already?
[18:31] <pleia2> yep
[18:31] <knome> ok, let me get rid of the F's
[18:31] <belkinsa> AFK
[18:32] <belkinsa> Er, so not needed.
[18:32] <knome> so, the pad
[18:32] <knome> what's your take on the questions listed?
[18:32]  * pleia2 looks
[18:33] <slickymaster> +1 on knome's idea of deleting those pages. Clearly 5 years is long time frame and can considered as abandoned pages
[18:37] <knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Apache
[18:37] <knome> WHAT?
[18:37] <slickymaster> LOL
[18:37] <slickymaster> someone really take over that one
[18:38] <knome> nope, it never was related to apache the web server
[18:38] <knome> pleia2, one last chance to see it before it goes! ;)
[18:38] <pleia2> I think I need some caffeine before I fight with knome on all of this
[18:38] <knome> oki
[18:38] <slickymaster> oh, I thought it was
[18:38] <pleia2> knome: seriously, don't just delete things
[18:38] <knome> i'll be removing pages while you are away
[18:38] <pleia2> we need to set up redirects
[18:38] <knome> these are personal pages.
[18:38] <knome> most of them say email addresses
[18:38] <pleia2> ok ok
[18:38] <knome> or "find me at wiki.ubuntu.com/SamePerson"
[18:39] <knome> i wouldn't delete anything precious
[18:39] <knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Apache/EnablingModRewrite
[18:39] <knome> heh.
[18:39] <knome> freaky.
[18:39] <knome> somebody built on it.
[18:40] <slickymaster> and that's somehow  related to the web server
[18:40] <knome> yep
[18:41] <pleia2> ack, that's not a redbull
[18:41] <pleia2> too many cans
[18:42] <pleia2> ok, the first question has me troubled
[18:42] <knome> the first real question
[18:42] <pleia2> I am not a huge fan of a whole overhaul here
[18:42] <knome> or the first first question
[18:42] <pleia2> coming up with a structure means never-ending work maintaining it as random people come and create pages in crazy places
[18:42] <knome> me neither, but i guess you can see the benefits of having the pages structured?
[18:43] <knome> pleia2, sure... but not being in a structure means never-ending work maintaining the categories
[18:43] <pleia2> we can't just *move* them, since people link to them immediately after creation, so it's redirecting
[18:43] <knome> that's true
[18:44] <pleia2> my favorite part is when the etherpad randomly logs me out
[18:44] <knome> that's always cool!
[18:45] <belkinsa> I heard that happened during a LoCo vUDS session for this cycle
[18:46] <pleia2> we can plan structure all day long, but I don't think people will use it
[18:46] <knome> pleia2, what's your take on the lifecycle of a page?
[18:46] <knome> my point is that creating a structure helps the maintainers
[18:46] <knome> i thought there was awfully lot of pages in the wiki
[18:46] <knome> but ultimately... there isn't *too* many
[18:47] <knome> it's doable
[18:47] <pleia2> ok, I think coming up with guidelines for how it should work is good, so if people want to follow the rules..
[18:49] <pleia2> as for lifecycle, I don't think we should have one ;)
[18:49] <belkinsa> Why?
[18:49] <belkinsa> Too much work?
[18:49] <belkinsa> For a wiki?
[18:49] <knome> you probably knew i'd disagree :)
[18:50] <pleia2> every cycle our first job would be adding the 14.04 tag to every single page
[18:50] <pleia2> that's insane
[18:50] <pleia2> unmaintainable ;)
[18:50] <belkinsa> RIght/
[18:50] <knome> i'm not suggesting that.
[18:50] <knome> i'm suggesting that if we find a page that targets dapper and only dapper, we should delete that page.
[18:50] <belkinsa> But if it was automatic, would a tag that had the month and year be possible?
[18:51] <knome> pleia2, and i know you disagree...
[18:51] <pleia2> I do
[18:51] <belkinsa> Scratch that.
[18:51] <knome> the idea that came up in the mailing list was to create subpages per release
[18:52] <pleia2> that's even worse :)
[18:52] <knome> because?
[18:52] <pleia2> tons of duplication
[18:52] <pleia2> postfix doesn't change a lot
[18:52] <pleia2> one for every release? what if there is a bug in that doc, fix on 6 pages?
[18:52] <pleia2> so much maintenance overhead
[18:52] <knome> no need to do that if the changes are small
[18:53] <slickymaster> yes
[18:53] <pleia2> plus sometimes we need dapper docs, a tiny embedded systems using an old unsupported version exist, I hate deleting history
[18:53] <knome> but if there is already several pages for the same thing, all targeting different release
[18:53] <belkinsa> Too bad we have no achiving system
[18:53] <pleia2> but then the assumption would be "no postfix page under 14.04? I guess there are no docs, not "oh, I should look under 13.10"
[18:53] <knome> pleia2, there should always be a main page that's the "current" information
[18:54] <knome> pleia2, which applies to the latest version unless otherwise mentioned
[18:54] <pleia2> knome: and who maintains that exactly?
[18:54] <knome> who maintains the wiki anyway?
[18:54] <pleia2> that's the trouble, you end up with a
[18:54] <knome> "current" being latest information available
[18:54] <pleia2> "current" page that is not current, it's confusing
[18:54] <knome> it's not called "current"
[18:55] <knome> it's just called HelpTopic/
[18:55] <belkinsa> You guys.  :) the admins, I think, but the the upper level ones.
[18:55] <knome> and the old versions are at HelpTopic/12.04
[18:55] <pleia2> belkinsa: haha
[18:55] <pleia2> nooo
[18:55] <pleia2> knome: I prefer just using version tags
[18:55] <pleia2> and create an "All" tag too
[18:56] <knome> pleia2, but oh the work of adding version tags for each page after we release a new release
[18:56] <knome> pleia2, isn't that what you just argumented.
[18:56] <pleia2> knome: I am going back to that bad idea because this bad idea is worse :)
[18:56] <knome> so hear my another idea
[18:56] <knome> which i think is superior to both
[18:56] <pleia2> ok
[18:57] <knome> tag the pages with the creating/last review month.
[18:57] <knome> last review not being the last modification date
[18:57] <knome> because that can be a minor thing, or a typo fix
[18:57] <knome> that way we'd know "this page hasn't been reviewed for 14 months"
[18:58] <pleia2> I don't know
[18:58] <pleia2> this is hard to maintain too, I think we have to do the best we can with last modified
[18:58] <slickymaster> knome, do you mean create a new tag just for that purpose?
[18:58] <pleia2> it's not optimal, but it is a technical solution that gives some guideance
[18:58] <knome> slickymaster, yep.
[18:58] <knome> pleia2, some, but that guidance might be quite a lot off
[18:58] <pleia2> yep, it might
[18:59] <slickymaster> well that just might be the best of two worlds
[18:59] <pleia2> but so will a tag that someoene doesn't understand they are supposed to update when they update a page
[18:59] <knome> it's easier to monitor tag changes than page changes
[18:59] <pleia2> or  even if they understand tags, "is this update important enough to change the tag for?"
[18:59] <slickymaster> and faster to fix
[18:59] <knome> ugh, i missed your point
[19:00] <knome> yeah, i can relate to that
[19:00] <knome> but the guidelines is relatively clear
[19:00] <knome> *guideline
[19:00] <pleia2> lol at people reading guidelines
[19:00] <pleia2> :)
[19:00] <pleia2> people find a wiki page via google, see and error, log in and fix it
[19:00] <knome> if it covers all releases at that moment, apply the new tag.
[19:00] <pleia2> they don't read how
[19:01] <pleia2> s/and error/an error
[19:01] <knome> we're always prone to user errors
[19:01] <pleia2> it's a wiki, peope just fix things
[19:01] <knome> yes, and they should
[19:01] <knome> and that's okay
[19:01] <knome> and when they "just fix" things, we probably don't want a new tag
[19:01] <knome> unless they did a huge overhaul
[19:02] <knome> and the next time a wiki admin or somebody in the team sees that, they can update the tag
[19:02] <knome> i mean,
[19:02] <knome> it's not a problem that these tags are *outdates*
[19:02] <knome> *outdated* too
[19:02] <knome> because if they are, then we will go and see how the page is
[19:02] <knome> and we can get those "oooh, they fixed this page" moments
[19:02] <knome> and just update the tag
[19:03] <pleia2> this sounds like a maintenance nightmare too
[19:03] <knome> it sounds like it's harder to set up
[19:03] <knome> but not as much maintaining as release tags are
[19:03] <knome> or release subpages
[19:03] <pleia2> how about this:
[19:03] <slickymaster> the problem is that maintenance wise, most of the solutions tend to be nightmares
[19:03] <pleia2> two headers about versioning
[19:04] <knome> (the monthly tags i'm talking about should probably be wiki "categories" btw)
[19:04] <pleia2> 1. This documentation is for <All> (tag) versions of ubuntu
[19:04] <pleia2> 2. This documentation has been confirmed/tested for <10.04/11.10/12.04> (tags) versions of ubuntu
[19:05] <pleia2> so then the user knows that it's supposed to cover everything, but that someone only actually reviewed it and confirmed working for some
[19:05] <knome> hmm,
[19:05] <pleia2> maybe wording a bit different, since both headers will be on the page
[19:05] <knome> sounds like a maintaining nightmare as well.
[19:06] <knome> did you read my last comment on parenthesis?
[19:06] <pleia2> yes, but with the ALL tag it means we don't actually need to touch every page each release, it would be nice to make sure it's good, but we don't *have* to
[19:06] <knome> so i'm not actually proposing visible "tags", just categories
[19:06] <pleia2> ah
[19:06] <belkinsa> Categories might be better than version tags.
[19:06] <knome> so monthly categories
[19:07] <knome> so we can track when certain pages are *really* reviewed the last time
[19:07] <pleia2> my proposal means it's important to see the tags
[19:07] <knome> or created
[19:07] <belkinsa> Those too.
[19:07] <knome> in my proposal, it's only important for the maintainers to know what they mean.
[19:07]  * slickymaster agrees with pleia2 on visibility 
[19:07] <pleia2> but we still have the problem of usings not knowing what they're looking at
[19:07] <knome> the wiki page content itself should make it obvious if it should work with 14.04 or not
[19:08] <pleia2> it doesn't
[19:08] <knome> but it should
[19:08] <pleia2> apache 1.3 looks a lot like apache 2.4 if you don't know what you're doing, and it can cause huuuge problems
[19:08] <belkinsa> pleia2, yes.  Without stats, we have nothing, but only the most popular pages as what the NewDocs do.
[19:08] <pleia2> belkinsa: sorry, I didn't mean popular pages there, I meant when a user looks at a page they don't know what version it's for
[19:09] <belkinsa> Oh, I see.
[19:09] <belkinsa> But I agree there.
[19:09] <pleia2> so we do need a user-facing mechanism for indicating what version the page is for
[19:09] <knome> pleia2, sure, but in that case Apache/ should probably be a landing page saying "choose your apache version"
[19:09] <knome> pleia2, and then pointing to either Apache/1/ or Apache/2/
[19:09] <knome> and hear,
[19:10] <pleia2> knome: people don't know what apache version they're using, if they know their ubuntu version we're lucky
[19:10] <knome> i'm not saying we should force that kind of structure for everything
[19:10] <knome> but in some cases, it's useful at least
[19:10] <belkinsa> +1
[19:10] <knome> pleia2, the page should then show the user how they can find out their apache version before proceeding.
[19:10] <knome> pleia2, that's a trivial thing to do in the end.
[19:11] <pleia2> now we're getting all meta into software versions
[19:11] <knome> we? you started that! :P
[19:11] <belkinsa> Is meta good in this case?
[19:11] <slickymaster> but if someone is going to edit a wiki page I think it's fair to assume that that someone will have a reasonable amount of knowledge  of what they're about to write off
[19:11] <knome> meta or not, we need to make sure there aren't problems regarding that
[19:11] <pleia2> this becomes worse when ubuntu changes defaults, so you may be running apache 2.4, but in raring we changed $this_default_setting so now you really need to look at ubuntu versions, not just apache
[19:12] <knome> slickymaster, or at least knowledge on what page they are on. if they don't, that will need moderator intervention anyway
[19:12] <slickymaster> yes
[19:12] <knome> pleia2, sure, but the apache 2 page should cover that raring anomaly then.
[19:13] <slickymaster> if  the pages content is accurate it should anyway
[19:14] <knome> pleia2, i think we're getting sidetracked here
[19:14] <pleia2> we're off in the weeds
[19:14] <knome> look at the pad
[19:15] <knome> i'm trying to gather our options there
[19:15] <knome> so we can try to make a good choice
[19:15] <belkinsa> Good move, knome.
[19:15] <belkinsa> Using the pad.
[19:15] <pleia2> boo, laggy freenode
[19:25] <knome> pleia2, how does using the CheckedWith and the month tag together sound?
[19:26] <knome> or the Targets + month tags
[19:26] <pleia2> knome: I think we can try it out
[19:26] <pleia2> I still worry that I'll forget to add the month tag :)
[19:26] <pleia2> I am so used to using wikis where we rely upon last modified dates and checking history that it still seems unnatural for me
[19:27] <knome> i see your point
[19:27] <knome> but there is no way to reliably know when the last real update was done :/
[19:27] <pleia2> yeah
[19:27] <knome> or even,
[19:27] <knome> a real check if "it still works with the latest" was done
[19:28]  * pleia2 nods
[19:28] <knome> i do consider that pro a big one for that
[19:28] <pleia2> I mean, we do have to trust editors to some degree
[19:28] <pleia2> I'm certainly not going to spend all my time confirming that the guy who updated it to say 13.10 works really checked it
[19:28] <knome> heh, sure
[19:29] <pleia2> that's official docs work :)
[19:29] <knome> yep
[19:29] <belkinsa> I agree, trust is key here.
[19:29] <slickymaster> +1
[19:29] <knome> so shall we talk about the subject categorizing a bit
[19:29] <pleia2> ok
[19:29] <knome> currently, we're using tags like CategoryHardware
[19:29] <pleia2> I have a half hour left to chat about this, then I need to go work on other things
[19:30] <knome> do we want to keep on using those?
[19:30] <knome> that's an alternative for some structure
[19:30] <knome> but that's prone for people not marking their pages as well
[19:30] <knome> in the same way they can add them anywhere they like
[19:31] <knome> i guess the pro is that changing/adding the category doesn't break the link
[19:31] <belkinsa> +1
[19:32] <pleia2> I think we keep them for now
[19:32] <knome> that's not what i asked :)
[19:32] <pleia2> oh
[19:32] <knome> i was asking if we want to keep on doing the categorizing for new pages
[19:32] <knome> and maintaining that system
[19:32] <pleia2> right, that's what I was saying yes to :)
[19:32] <knome> heh, ok
[19:33] <belkinsa> I will say, "yes" to this too.
[19:33] <knome> i guess we need to, if we don't want to create any structure
[19:33] <pleia2> URL-based structure is just tough on a collaborative wiki
[19:33] <pleia2> with a tight team that collaborates a lot it's easier (like teams on wiki.ubuntu.com)
[19:33] <knome> more or less, yes
[19:34] <pleia2> so as yucky as it is, I think we just let people continue creating pages where they think they belong, and tag them appropriately
[19:34] <pleia2> err, category
[19:34] <belkinsa> +1
[19:35]  * slickymaster also thinks that category must be kept
[19:35] <knome> icky
[19:35] <pleia2> I know
[19:35] <belkinsa> Since you, the admins, have the power to do that.
[19:35] <pleia2> users can't set categories?
[19:35] <belkinsa> They might not know how to format the link to do it.
[19:36] <belkinsa> If it's /cat/sub.
[19:36] <belkinsa> But that might be me.
[19:36] <slickymaster> afk
[19:36] <knome> if it's a category, then they just need to write CategoryCategory
[19:36] <knome> eg. CategorySound
[19:37] <belkinsa> Oh, I see.  Even I got it wrong.  Maybe that can be added into the style guide?
[19:37] <belkinsa> If not already.
[19:40] <knome> bleh.
[19:40] <knome> pleia2, my last question is the translated pages...
[19:41] <slickymaster> that's bound to be a Herculean task
[19:41] <belkinsa> Translating?
[19:41] <pleia2> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HelpOnCategories is linked in the docs on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/Formatting
[19:41] <pleia2> cprofitt: what needs updating on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide ?
[19:42] <pleia2> knome: ah yeah, I don't know
[19:42] <pleia2> knome: on the ubuntu wiki we use something like /Fr/new_page_here
[19:42] <pleia2> but again, structure-based, eeeghhh
[19:42] <knome> pleia2, in this wiki, they float around anywhere..
[19:43] <belkinsa> Oh, duh, right.  But it seems that something confusing to newbies as ballons said in the vUDS.
[19:43] <pleia2> actually, looks like we did a few things
[19:43] <pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue98/Fr heh
[19:43] <knome> pleia2, oops. :)
[19:43] <pleia2> so yeah, this url-based stuff is a mess
[19:43] <slickymaster> sorry my ignorance but are there any .po files for the wiki documents? I'm under the impression that there aren't
[19:43] <pleia2> knome: maybe just language categories?
[19:43] <pleia2> slickymaster: nope
[19:44] <knome> pleia2, there are already. don't know if they are working well.
[19:44] <pleia2> knome: ah
[19:44] <pleia2> knome: maybe we try harder to get them to work well :)
[19:44] <knome> also, there aren't too many pages translated
[19:44] <pleia2> yeah
[19:44] <knome> so that's really scattered
[19:44] <slickymaster> so the solution would be to /language of the translated page for each and every one of the pages?
[19:44] <knome> some of them are also marked for deletion
[19:45] <pleia2> btw, just to be clear here, we had like 2 volunteers for the past 2 years, so everything works badly right now ;)
[19:45] <pleia2> I think any solutions we come up with will be a bit trial and error
[19:45] <knome> don't worry, i'm expecting them to :P
[19:45] <pleia2> hehe
[19:45] <knome> the point is
[19:46] <knome> how do we check why some of the translated pages are marked for removal?
[19:46] <pleia2> ask someone :)
[19:46] <pleia2> we can probably drag loco teams in to help, they are cool
[19:46] <knome> what if i don't know what language it is in? :P
[19:46] <pleia2> google helps
[19:46] <slickymaster> yeah
[19:47] <pleia2> when I go to a page, chrome offers to translate :D
[19:47] <knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/page
[19:47] <knome> there's a "page" for you
[19:47] <pleia2> lol
[19:47] <knome> have permission to delete?
[19:47] <slickymaster> just a question, what about the future translations? how is that going to be? a /language of the translated page for each and every one of the pages?
[19:48] <knome> slickymaster, i don't think that's a target
[19:48] <slickymaster> oh, I see
[19:48] <pleia2> knome: yes, but that's a specific case we should discuss privately
[19:48] <knome> slickymaster, if people want to transalte, good, but if not... then not
[19:48] <slickymaster> okie dokie
[19:50] <knome> i'll rm that.
[19:55] <knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UsefulDocumentation
[19:55] <knome> that seems like something we might want to merge to the guides page or the other resources page
[19:55] <knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UsefulDocs
[19:55] <knome> but what's that?
[19:55] <pleia2> yeah
[19:56] <knome> looks like an off shot
[19:56] <pleia2> huh
[19:56] <belkinsa> Yeah, messy messy messy...
[19:56] <knome> i saw another page that had that content
[19:56] <knome> can't remember the page name, but it was something totally unrelated
[19:56] <knome> i deleted the page, btw
[19:56] <knome> pleia2, don't cry!
[19:56] <pleia2> :P
[19:57] <knome> and i'll delete this now
[19:57] <slickymaster> knome, almost every item on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UsefulDocumentation is already listed on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UsefulDocumentation
[19:57] <belkinsa> I think UsefulDocs must go.
[19:57] <knome> haha
[19:57] <belkinsa> Too Subjective to me
[19:57] <knome> slickymaster, you're not making sense.
[19:57] <slickymaster> ups
[19:57] <slickymaster> already listed on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs
[19:57] <slickymaster> sorry
[19:57] <knome> heh, oki
[19:57] <knome> not removing *that*
[19:57] <knome> (yet)
[19:59] <knome> ok, i think i've purged most of the useless personal pages
[19:59]  * knome is happier than before
[20:00] <pleia2> congrats
[20:01] <knome> heh, weird
[20:01] <knome> when i go to https://help.ubuntu.com/community
[20:01] <knome> the page says login to edit
[20:02] <knome> but obviously i'm already logged
[20:02] <belkinsa> I can access the edit
[20:02] <pleia2> it works fine for me
[20:02] <knome> hmm, some cache issues i guess
[20:02] <belkinsa> Maybe relog in IP?
[20:02] <belkinsa> Or clear cache.
[20:02] <pleia2> knome: yeah
[20:02] <belkinsa> Happens to me for Ubuntu Ohio.
[20:02] <knome> pleia2, i noticed you and cprofitt are now watching all my moves
[20:02] <knome> boo ;)
[20:02] <pleia2> lol
[20:03] <pleia2> I told him how to subscribe
[20:03] <pleia2> to .*
[20:03] <knome> i did that as well
[20:03] <knome> let's see how much spam that builds
[20:03] <knome> (now that i stopped playing around, probably not too much)
[20:03] <pleia2> I'm interested to see how active all of this really is
[20:03] <belkinsa> Me too.
[20:04] <knome> pleia2, are you subscribed to trivial changes?
[20:04] <pleia2> knome: yeah
[20:04] <knome> i figured so
[20:04] <pleia2> apparently I like pain
[20:04] <pleia2> and email
[20:04] <knome> haha
[20:05] <belkinsa> Oh snap, you guys can see that?
[20:05] <knome> "oh yay i got email"
[20:05] <knome> "it's 4am and you were sleeping"
[20:05] <knome> the story of lyz and her husband
[20:05] <knome> just kidding!
[20:05] <pleia2> lol
[20:05] <belkinsa> xD
[20:05] <pleia2> this is why I am not allowed to check email in the middle of the night
[20:05] <pleia2> "oh, I need to reply to that"
[20:05] <pleia2> sometimes I still do :(
[20:05] <knome> mhm
[20:06] <pleia2> bad pleia2
[20:06] <knome> yep
[20:06] <knome> good for us though!
[20:06] <belkinsa> Hehe.
[20:06] <knome> oops.
[20:06] <pleia2> lol
[20:06] <knome> i try to avoid your sleeping times
[20:06] <knome> at least mostly
[20:06] <knome> actually, i think i don't :(
[20:06] <knome> only on IRC
[20:06] <pleia2> lol
[20:06] <belkinsa> Aren't you guys ten time zones a part?
[20:06] <pleia2> I ignore when you pleia2: me anyway
[20:06] <knome> yep
[20:07] <pleia2> it noon!
[20:07] <pleia2> it's
[20:07] <belkinsa> Wait, I can count, 8.
[20:07] <knome> yeah sure, it's 10pm
[20:07] <belkinsa> Or nine.
[20:07] <knome> no, it's ten
[20:07] <pleia2> you were right :)
[20:07] <belkinsa> Oh.
[20:07] <knome> i'm just staying up too long on most of the nights
[20:07] <belkinsa> Most people here seem too.
[20:08] <knome> sometimes i've seen pleia2 and the rest of the lot across the pond go sleeping before me :/
[20:08] <pleia2> I like sleeping
[20:08] <knome> me too
[20:08] <knome> but i like being awake as well
[20:08] <pleia2> the husband and the cats are still in bed
[20:08] <belkinsa> I don't know how to stay up.
[20:09] <knome> pleia2, the what? "cats" ?
[20:09] <knome> ;)
[20:09]  * belkinsa lurks
[20:09]  * belkinsa is a cat person too
[20:09] <pleia2> fluffy, cause trouble
[20:09] <knome> look bored in vUDS
[20:09] <pleia2> lol
[20:09] <pleia2> everyone looks bored in vUDS
[20:10] <pleia2> :D
[20:10] <belkinsa> Yeah.
[20:10] <knome> hah
[20:10] <knome> no standards there
[20:10] <belkinsa> Well, at least we got something done for the team.
[20:10] <pleia2> :)
[20:10] <knome> you always got things done when you put two or more xubuntu team members together ;)
[20:11] <knome> s/got/get/
[20:11] <belkinsa> Will this and the pad be posted to the list for others to see?
[20:11] <pleia2> someone (knome) should email what we decided re:tagging
[20:11] <knome> did we decide anything?
[20:11] <pleia2> in case someone wants to discuss more
[20:12] <belkinsa> Yes, and the link to the pad also.  Since it all there.
[20:12] <knome> i guess i can get myself together later today and send a mail
[20:12] <pleia2> oh I don't know
[20:12] <belkinsa> Okay, thank you.
[20:12] <belkinsa> Why?
[20:12] <pleia2> and I can add people to the etherpad team if they need
[20:13] <pleia2> ok, for real now, I need to work on other things now
[20:13] <knome> have fun!
[20:13] <belkinsa> Thank you pleia2 for coming to help.  See ya around.
[20:13] <knome> godbyk, since you asked so nicely... http://open.knome.fi/2013/12/07/efforts-on-documentation/
[20:16] <godbyk> knome: Nicely done! Thanks!
[20:16] <knome> godbyk, your turn :)
[20:16] <godbyk> :)
[20:16] <belkinsa> I think I need to do the same with what we talked about this weekend.
[20:17] <pleia2> godbyk: you should apply for ubuntu membership :)
[20:18] <knome> soudns good
[20:18] <knome> i lost my ability to type
[20:18] <knome> if i ever had one
[20:18] <belkinsa> It seems that you have.  ;)
[20:18] <belkinsa> But who was that "sounds good" too?
[20:19] <knome> belkinsa, you and pleia2  ;)
[20:19] <godbyk> pleia2: Yeah, I should do that sometime. I've never bothered. Do I have to collect a bunch of testimonials and the like?
[20:19] <pleia2> godbyk: testimonials help, a quick note to the -doc and -manual lists should get you a pile of 'em ;)
[20:20]  * belkinsa needs to do that soon, herself
[20:20] <godbyk> pleia2: Okay, I'll add that to my to do list. Along with updating my wiki page.
[20:20] <pleia2> your work is well documented though, it shouldnt be much work
[20:20] <pleia2> \o/
[20:20] <pleia2> belkinsa: yes yes, you too!
[20:20] <godbyk> pleia2: My work *is* documentation. ;-)
[20:20] <pleia2> godbyk: hehe, right
[20:31] <godbyk> pleia2: I'll write an email later, but I think we should merge in the GNOME docs before we start editing the system docs.
[20:33] <pleia2> godbyk: thanks, yeah, I figured there might be something like that required first
[20:36] <godbyk> You know what'd be awesome? If every gamepad I bought didn't have a completely different button mapping.
[21:40] <belkinsa> Does anyone have the link to the meeting logs?
[21:41] <belkinsa> never mind found the
[21:43] <pleia2> belkinsa: if you have some time, updating the wiki with meeting stuff would be super helpful :)
[21:43] <pleia2> update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda and browse to the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/DocTeam to see what we've done in the past
[21:43] <belkinsa> Sure, I will.
[21:44] <belkinsa> Let me finish my blog post first
[21:45] <pleia2> thanks :D
[21:45] <belkinsa> Not a problem.
[21:49] <knome> pleia2, ygm
[21:53] <knome> baghh, slow wikis
[21:54] <pleia2> ygm?
[21:54] <knome> as in "you've got mail"
[21:54] <pleia2> oh :)
[21:54] <pleia2> no moar
[21:54] <knome> you asked for that yourself!
[21:54] <belkinsa> Yes, no moar for now.
[21:54] <pleia2> :)
[21:55] <pleia2> looks good, thank you
[21:55] <knome> moar mail for you both
[21:55] <belkinsa> Yeah, I saw.
[21:55] <belkinsa> But I have nothing to say to it
[21:56] <knome> not all mail needs responding ;)
[21:56] <knome> i'm really good at spamming pleia2's mailbox
[21:56] <belkinsa> Heh
[21:56] <belkinsa> Hehe*
[21:58] <knome> even moar mail
[21:58] <slickymaster> you keep them coming
[21:58] <knome> lots of things to organize
[21:59] <slickymaster> indeed
[21:59] <knome> wondering if i should start spamming you two with xubuntu stuff next
[21:59]  * slickymaster nods
[22:00] <belkinsa> NOOOOOOO!
[22:00]  * belkinsa is a Ubuntu user
[22:00] <knome> belkinsa, i was referring to slickymaster and pleia2 ;)
[22:01] <belkinsa> Oh.
[22:01]  * slickymaster thought so
[22:35] <belkinsa> pleia2 for the meeting agenda page, what should I do?  Clear out?
[22:36] <pleia2> belkinsa: I think so, maybe look at history to be sure?
[22:36] <belkinsa> Okay, I will.  If it loads.
[22:41] <belkinsa> Is LP down or what?
[22:42] <belkinsa> There we are. It loaded.
[22:46] <belkinsa> Also, I will change the meeting info on this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam pleia2
[22:50] <pleia2> belkinsa: I don't think you want to remove the banner, just edit it
[22:51] <belkinsa> I can't.  I don't know where that banner is
[22:51] <pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingBanner?action=recall&rev=7 shows the text you want to use
[22:51] <belkinsa> Thanks
[22:54] <belkinsa> And fixed.
[22:54] <belkinsa> Everything should correct now.
[22:54] <pleia2> woohoo, thanks!
[22:55] <belkinsa> Not a problem.
[22:58] <belkinsa> pleia2, one other thing, can I see the source code to the front page of Ubuntu Women wiki in order for me to work on getting a get involved story up on that page?  I'm willing to play around with it on a sandbox page on that wiki.
[22:59] <pleia2> belkinsa: does this work for you? http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/Home?action=raw
[22:59] <belkinsa> Yeah.
[22:59] <belkinsa> How did you do that?
[23:00] <pleia2> under "More Actions:" dropdown selected "Raw text"
[23:00] <belkinsa> Thank you.
[23:00] <pleia2> sure thing :)