[00:05] At least we are trying to fix the issue of branding the Community Help wiki. [00:09] some images are good... others just increase load times [00:10] i guess i could optimize the png's we're using on the frontpage [00:10] i'll do that some time in the near future [00:10] it is not taking long to load for me [00:10] so they appear to be pretty good right now [00:10] me neither, but it can always be faster [00:10] they are very small [00:11] cprofitt, did you look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PasiLallinaho/DocumentationTeam/MenuBar already? [00:11] I think they are good... they fit the current Ubuntu themse as well [00:11] I like them [00:11] yep, they are from the official pictograms list [00:11] I figured. [00:12] Looking at the menu bar now... had not looked at it yet [00:12] looks nice [00:12] should i just go and replace the current one with that? [00:12] i guess the only big change is that there is no "home" (instead, the icon leads to the home page) [00:13] Oh, cprofitt, (sorry for bugging you about this) has my suggestion about having the main wiki page to a program linked to the search of AskUbuntu? [00:13] been used? [00:14] knome: that might not be obvious for everyone. [00:14] knome: I like the lines in the original... but that is a taste thing. [00:14] I also think the home should not just be an icon... unless the other items are icons too [00:14] two different methods for navigation may confuse people [00:15] Agreed. [00:16] I made the image go to home and had a text link on the New York Page [00:16] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewYorkTeam [00:17] belkinsa: I am not sure if the askubuntu link has been discussed [00:17] we should ask for that... [00:17] To the AskUbuntu folks? [00:17] well... ask for the askubuntu team to discuss the idea with us [00:17] I have not talked to them about it yet [00:17] Okay, thank you for the update. [00:18] That could also help us to figure what pages we need and don't need based on the AskUbuntu folks. [00:18] I will try to ask around... but I think we should discuss exactly how we would want that too look [00:18] Okay. [00:19] I would want to get their input on how they see their site meshing with the community help wiki [00:19] to ensure there is no feeling of competition [00:19] Okay. [00:20] Thank you again. [00:22] belkinsa: do you use askubuntu? [00:22] Once in awhile [00:23] I just don't like the fact that there are lot of easy to look up questions by newbies that could be found in the wiki if we had a good running one [00:23] Or maybe your suggestion [00:24] And that's why I questioned redundancy in support for Ubuntu and programs in the list. [00:24] different people like using different methods to get help [00:24] I know [00:25] belkinsa: redundancy is only bad when there are conflicts that cause confusion [00:25] even if same questions are answered in multiple places, it's not by definition redundant [00:25] Okay, I see. English is not my first. [00:26] cprofitt, updated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PasiLallinaho/DocumentationTeam/MenuBar [00:26] But what cprofitt said I think that's the issue that I'm seeing with the wiki being a bad form of support. [00:26] i guess we could add some border lines or slightly different bg colors for each other item [00:27] belkinsa: any resources, wiki or ask... can become bad if it becomes out of date [00:29] its a bit like having forums and discourse [00:29] Duh. I think something is just bugging me about the wiki and AskUbuntu that might just be one of those It's-Only-Me issues. [00:29] http://discourse.ubuntu.com/ [00:29] And forums and mailing lists and IRC [00:29] belkinsa: no, no... it doesn't bug just you [00:29] I know, I use discourse for Ubuntu Ohio things [00:29] askubuntu looks to be better because it is newer [00:30] give it three years and it will have out-of-date stuff too [00:30] RIght, right. [00:30] clean-up of old stuff is a large issue [00:30] I have not seen a good solution for it yet [00:30] Microsoft, Apple, Novell and other companies have all had the same issue [00:30] Management is better though on AskUbutu, isn't? [00:31] heck Microsoft has technet articles that link to deleted content [00:31] M$ [00:31] Boo. [00:31] belkinsa: I do not think so... I have not seen any auto-expiration on Aks Abuntu [00:31] it is a document life cycle issue [00:31] Ah. [00:32] Auto-expiration would be nice but that could lead to problems [00:34] It could... [00:35] most document lifecycle solutions I have seen have an automated process to remind about review and update [00:35] and only archive the document if it is not updated by a certain date [00:35] And MoinMoin doesn't have the feature for this? [00:36] And also have a automatic "archived" tag. [00:36] not sure... I can research that [00:36] cprofitt, like the striping on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PasiLallinaho/DocumentationTeam/MenuBar better? [00:37] belkinsa, my idea of tagging things with the creating/major review month would also help with that issue [00:38] cprofitt: and if so, we can propose that idea to the list. [00:38] +1 [00:38] knome: looking better [00:39] Yeah... that makes it easier to read knome [00:40] there may be some way for IS to reun a script and determine the age of pages... not sure [00:40] cprofitt, as on the mailing list, that will only result the last change [00:40] which might be a typo fix or other really small one [00:41] But that requires a ticket to them and knome's comment. [00:41] tagging the page when a good review was done would be more helpful to actually know how old pages are [00:41] But then again, if we need it for the good, then we should ask them [00:42] we can already see the last changes dates [00:42] but that's not helpful in many of the cases [00:42] i guess the first thing to do is decide if we want to keep pages that have information for releases that are not supported [00:43] +1 [00:43] knome: exactly [00:43] like https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Oracle10gDapper [00:44] it would be a really nice feature to have the last five editors sent an email that the page has not been updated in the last 12 months [00:44] cprofitt, imagine my proposal... [00:44] we could just check all pages that have a tag 2012Dec or anything before [00:44] knome: that page was marked for deletion a long time ago [00:44] yes... [00:44] but it's still on the wiki. [00:44] knome: yes, I liked your suggestion [00:45] somebody needs to take action [00:45] if you ACK, i can go through all the pages that are marked for deletion >1 year ago [00:45] but no crying we lost something then ;) [00:45] Action, as action item? [00:46] Or is this for the wiki admins only. [00:46] action as in "get it done" [00:46] Ah, right. DUH. [00:46] anyone have an issue with that page being deleted... [00:46] it is very old and out of date [00:46] well that's not the only page [00:46] and if we're looking for consensus for every page, it's going to take ages [00:46] I know some of the tagged pages need to be deleted because they say so. [00:46] Agreed. [00:47] so either somebody who has the time and knowledge should carefully go through them and either delete or mark them for other actions [00:47] or somebody should just go and remove all marked pages. [00:47] Second one [00:47] In the first place, then the first. [00:48] I can go through them... but may lack the knowledge on some [00:48] I just deleted that page [00:48] if the second.. then there is no doing the first [00:48] Which one? [00:48] I do apologize - I was not aware most of the team had vanished and I was the only one [00:48] Oh. [00:48] the oracle one [00:49] cprofitt, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag/Deletion/List [00:49] cprofitt, start with grepping "dapper" on that list... [00:49] Also, I think we need to clean up the wiki admins team of the inactive one [00:49] knome: yep... I have stayed aware from deletions in the past dues to it being frowned upon when I was just starting out [00:49] First three can be deleted for sure [00:49] I always left that to the more senior folks [00:50] cprofitt, i'm all for deleting pages that discuss dapper, or other long-not-supported releases [00:50] belkinsa: yes... we do there are some inactive people that need to be removed. [00:50] i know others disagree, but meh. [00:51] How many admins are still active anyways? I can think of four. [00:52] the LP team has expiration dates on several of them... [00:52] not the oldest ones though [00:52] I think all but the owner should have expirations that allow people to renew [00:52] When was that changed? [00:53] +1 [00:53] looks like in 2012 [00:53] I will talk with mdke about it... [00:53] Is the owner still active? [00:53] he is around, but not sure he is active [00:53] Thank you. [00:53] mdke just did some stuff, but as i proposed, we should make CC the owner for that team. [00:53] he did respond to the list about how to make people admins [00:53] and editors [00:54] If it really four active folks I think there should a call for a few more, if possible. [00:54] if it's four *active* ones, we're doing great :) [00:55] if it's four "active" ones, then maybe we should call for a few more. [00:55] Yeah, but that might not be enough. [00:55] I been thinking about it but I don't have the skill to know what to delete. [00:56] I think we need to work to get more people active... [00:56] i think we should get more people to contribute to the low-level activities first [00:56] Or that too. [00:56] I think admins around 4 is good, but there is a need for more with editor privs [00:56] But first figure out who is still around [00:56] the first step would be making CC the owner of that team [00:56] yes,... getting more people just reviewing and tagging would be fantastic [00:56] Editors can see the changes and approve them, right? [00:57] then ask somebody in the CC (like pleia2) make all the people expire from the team [00:57] including the admins! [00:57] pleia2 had the idea of Tagging Jams. [00:57] +1 [00:57] because owner is always an admin. [00:57] knome: I can raise the CC question with the CC when we meet next Thursday [00:57] even if the owner wasn't a member of the team. [00:57] cprofitt, that would be good [00:57] tagging jams would be cool [00:57] cprofitt, you happen to be in the CC as well? :) [00:58] Yes [00:58] cool. [00:58] and then, not so cool [00:58] We could organize one soon. [00:58] small amount of people doing lots [00:58] why not so cool? [00:58] true... [00:59] but I am very focused on increasing the number of people learning to take on roles in the community [00:59] yep, not doubting that [00:59] I'm the same, it seems. [00:59] Since most of my work seems to fall into the community part [00:59] It is amazing to think that several of us all were once on a team known as the Ubuntu Beginners Team [01:00] And that's a dead team now, right? [01:01] belkinsa: it is a team that is no longer [01:01] it started with a broad based of people, but only a small number stayed active [01:02] Okay, I think it's removed from the team list [01:02] and as we took on leadership in other parts of Ubuntu we were unable to handoff leadership to others [01:02] it was one of the key points were I realized we had to do more as a community to encourage people to grow in to leadership positions [01:02] Good move. [01:04] Sigh, maybe I should get training on what to delete and apply to the admins team. [01:05] we need low-level contributors as well. [01:06] if we don't have those, there's no need for admins. [01:06] True, true. [01:06] +1 [01:07] I don't know why I joined the team. Maybe just because of my MoinMoin skills that I use in Ubuntu Women. Though I can put those in power, but I might need to find a set of pages to work on. [01:07] alright just deleted the Beagle wiki pages [01:08] nice work [01:08] * knome is cheering for cprofitt [01:08] only 118 to go [01:08] \o/ [01:08] yeah... had I known I was the only wiki admin active I would have reviewed these before [01:13] looks like the Acer One docs should be updated... [01:13] what do you guys think... [01:13] I think those moved or something [01:13] https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AspireOne [01:14] there are articles about old unsupported versions... [01:14] but I believe Acer is still producing machines under that moniker [01:14] Don't know, [01:14] ask in forums or something? [01:15] there are questions on Ask Ubuntu about the models using 13.04 [01:15] But no wiki pages? [01:16] cprofitt, i removed the outdated upgrade instructions [01:16] yeah... wiki pages end at 10.04 [01:17] cprofitt, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag/Unsupported/List [01:17] cprofitt, also interesting list. [01:17] yep [01:17] there's lot of the same pages then in delete list [01:18] Okay, I think it could be deleted. [01:18] maybe those which appear in both could be simply deleted? [01:18] +1 [01:18] we likely need to adopt a policy in regards to when pages should be deleted [01:18] +1 [01:18] I will be updating the Joomla pages [01:18] That's what is needed. A policy, [01:19] wish we could get reports on how much these pages are viewed [01:19] that would help with making some decisions too [01:19] Agreed. [01:20] But that's another ticket, but a well needed one. [01:20] potentially tracking these deletions with launchpad as bugs would help raise awareness [01:20] That could work. [01:21] sounds like a lot of work for really old pages [01:21] I would only do it moving forward [01:21] +1 [01:21] I allows us to track the work as the rest of the projects do [01:21] bugs for updates and deletions [01:24] personally I think all unsupported version tagged pages should also have needs updating or candidate for deletion marks [01:25] depending on which way things are leaning [01:25] Agreed. [01:25] so in that case, shouldn't we just delete all pages that have both the unsupported and delete tags? [01:25] And the updating ones could have some flow that is easier to read. [01:25] just tripped over this page... [01:25] https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AcerAspire1410 [01:25] that is way out of date [01:26] That can go. [01:26] hmm, useful! [01:26] Oh, wait, never mind [01:26] Needs updating tag, if possible, on that page [01:26] https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Aspire1810TZ/Karmic [01:26] it points to that page which does not exist [01:27] delete the page. [01:27] I think deletion might be better [01:27] Okay, I agree. [01:27] Maybe that could be also a perimeter what can be deleted. What other pages are linked in it. [01:31] this page has been given a bit of care [01:31] https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AspireOne522 [01:32] Keep it, too recent. [01:32] yep [01:32] I am [01:32] it shows that other models could have been udpate too though [01:32] Cool [01:33] cprofitt, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EncryptedRootonDapperUsingLUKS :P [01:33] https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AspireOneAOD250 [01:33] same as that one [01:34] knome: I think we should redirect that [01:34] +1 [01:34] if there is a page that handles that topic for recent releases [01:34] But the Dapper one can go [01:35] this is where i disagree with people moest [01:35] *most [01:35] really, a redirection? :) [01:36] It depends... for dapper I would not redirect [01:36] Sigh, no standards. [01:36] EncryptedFilesystemUsingDm-CryptOnDapper [01:36] EncryptedFilesystemUsingLUKSandRemovesKeysOnDapper [01:36] EncryptedRootonDapperUsingLUKS [01:36] i would simply delete all those pages. [01:36] I guess really we would only go back to 12.04 for a redirect [01:36] the issue is the page might be linked too [01:37] from another outdated resource? [01:37] https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EncryptedFilesystems [01:37] knome: Go a head [01:37] yes [01:37] an outdated page that needs to be updated [01:37] +1 [01:37] Wait. Never mind. [01:38] at times even Google [01:38] https://www.google.com/#q=Encrypted+File+Systems+Ubuntu [01:38] First linkk is that page [01:38] deleted those [01:38] second for me, but sure [01:39] https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EncryptedFilesystemHowto2 [01:39] * cprofitt facepalms [01:39] that is for 5.10 [01:39] ;) [01:39] Damn! [01:40] Off with its head! [01:40] is any of the information still valid [01:40] Right. [01:40] Duh. [01:40] this is one of those area in which I do not know [01:40] Same [01:40] so it might still work in 13.04 [01:40] Who might though? [01:41] I do not know [01:41] Maybe a call on a mailing list is needed or something. [01:41] I think we mark it for needs update and push it to the mailing list [01:41] Okay [01:41] that area is a mess though [01:41] https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EncryptedFilesystemHowto3 [01:42] https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EncryptedFilesystemHowto1 [01:42] https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EncryptedFilesystemHowto [01:42] oops [01:42] https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EncryptedFilesystemHowto2 [01:42] https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EncryptedFilesystemHowto1 is not a page [01:42] yes, 1 is not [01:42] meant to type 2 [01:42] it goes 2 - 7 [01:42] 8 [01:42] even [01:42] Dang. [01:42] And those needs a rewrite [01:43] a merge and a re-write [01:43] First person, no-no. Right? [01:43] no need for 9 total pages all covering roughly the same thing [01:43] Agreed. [01:43] yes, first person really should not be used in documentation [01:44] this is the help wiki though, not documentation [01:44] ;) [01:45] Yes. [01:45] cprofitt, do you thikn we'd lost much if you deleted 2-9? [01:45] knome - maybe not... but I would push this to the list first [01:45] perhaps say -- [01:46] we found these pages -- they appear to be out of date, but a great deal of work was put in to them [01:46] from my POV, there's always space for variation and moving bits [01:46] if they look to be really close to each other, it probably isn't worth it to save them all [01:46] if someone withc knowleged on the subject could work on merging/updating them it would be appreciated [01:46] Maybe lump them in one sandbox page? [01:46] Or that. [01:47] In order to clean things up we will review this again in 30 days [01:47] That works. [01:47] would probably be easier to write a new page from scratch [01:47] and delete all but one page (hopefully an updated page) [01:47] knome: I agree [01:47] +1 [01:47] but I find having the old one to make me think about what needs to be covered helps [01:48] sure [01:48] I am keeping the Joomla page around while I create the new one [01:48] Yeah, some base to work off of. [01:48] That's the point of sandboxes. [01:48] I should do that tonight [01:49] turn this http://ftbeowulf.wordpress.com/2013/10/06/joomla-on-ubuntu-server-13-10/ [01:49] in to a wiki article [01:49] I did that when 13.10 was still not released [01:49] joomla article on a blog running wordpress... oops :) [01:49] Idea: maybe the wiki admins and the wiki folks could have monthly jams to get the wiki cleaned up. [01:49] lol [01:49] I think we should talk to the loco council about organizing a global wiki jam event [01:50] I have tried. [01:50] Well, in the LoCo Contacts list [01:50] belkinsa: I want to go straight to the council [01:50] and work with jorge as well [01:50] Oh/ [01:50] cprofitt, ping skellat. [01:50] +1 knome [01:50] skellat will help us out [01:50] I can get him [01:51] I told him [01:51] thanks skellat [01:52] I was about to ask you to come over here [01:52] thanks for joining us [01:52] How may I serve you? [01:52] we were just discussing the potential of organizing a global wiki doc jam [01:52] and thought we should discuss with the loco council [01:52] skellat, i'd like a blanket and some hot chocolate [01:52] knome: At this hour that would have to be ICBM-launched, you know :-) [01:53] hehe [01:53] skellat: Amazon might lone you a drone [01:53] And maybe do this for every cycle. [01:53] Okay [01:53] If needed. [01:53] I think every cycle could be useful [01:53] if nothing else help tag article that need to be updated for the new release [01:54] once the wiki is in better shape, regular maintaining should keep us in a relatively good shape [01:54] And to get others to work on updating those pages. [01:55] Those who have those technical skills for those programs. [01:55] skellat: I think the good thing is that we have a very dedicated and active group of people interested in working on developing the framework for an event [01:55] First question: What do you want to have as the outcome for wiki doc jam #1? [01:55] likely to need to do some classroom time -- or Google Hangout stuff [01:55] outcome? [01:56] knome: Results [01:56] I think every jam would have to have a training component - get new people trained on how to assist with the Wiki [01:56] A cleaner wiki then what we have? [01:56] one thing i could think of is getting the pages marked for deletion either deleted or updated [01:56] overall goal is to have a up to date wiki [01:56] That too of cprofitt's idea. [01:56] (a practical goal) [01:56] a) get people trained on how to help [01:56] Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic, Time-bound [01:57]