[00:32] <popey> finally finished
[00:40]  * popey throttles torrent before bed
[07:01] <MooDoo> morning all
[07:59] <dwatkins> hiya
[08:01] <MooDoo> hi dwatkins
[08:02]  * dwatkins is becoming increasingly disillusioned about Ubuntu, but puts it down to lack of coffee
[08:03] <dwatkins> !bug 1070598
[08:03] <MooDoo> dwatkins: come now, sit on my knee tell unvle moodoo all about it.
[08:03]  * dwatkins picks up his teddy bear
[08:03] <MooDoo> dwatkins: opt in would be nice, but turning it off isn't that hard
[08:04] <dwatkins> it's more the general attitude that seems to being portrayed, that the Powers That Be are pushing Ubuntu in a certain direction and won't listen to suggestions, but I could be misreading the situation
[08:05] <TheOpenSourcerer> Morning
[08:05] <dwatkins> hiya TheOpenSourcerer
[08:05] <MooDoo> dwatkins: I agree with you, but can't say it's that bad when the option to turn it off is easy
[08:05] <MooDoo> TheOpenSourcerer: morning
[08:06] <dwatkins> I guess I'm just thinking of the stereotypical "new" user not knowing this sort of thing.
[08:07] <MooDoo> the steriotypical new user won't know of the problem so probably won't care imo
[08:09] <TheOpenSourcerer> What a morning... Thing 2 has had a cold that went croupy - at 06:30am was told to call 999 as he was having trouble  breathing. Whilst waiting for Ambulance we administered Thing 2's adrenalin pen... This seemed to help but now wife and Thing 2 are at hospital. Not bad for 50mins 1st thing on a Wed. morning eh?
[08:10] <ali1234> dwatkins: you are just noticing this now?
[08:10] <MooDoo> TheOpenSourcerer: oh dear, we had that the other week, so purchased a humidifier that worked a treat in their bedroom
[08:11] <TheOpenSourcerer> We've had a steamer going for the last two nights.
[08:11] <TheOpenSourcerer> As he has asthma/peanut allergy he seems to get croup rather too frequently for my liking
[08:12] <dwatkins> ali1234: noticing that users don't notice, or noticing that the powers that be are pushing this sort of thing?
[08:12] <MooDoo> oh dear :(
[08:12] <ali1234> dwatkins: the latter
[08:14] <dwatkins> ali1234: yes, although I may have not been paying a lot of attention to this sort of thing until recently.
[08:14] <dwatkins> TheOpenSourcerer: hope Thing 2 is back home and all better soon
[08:14] <ali1234> pushing through unpopular changes has been completely standard since about 2010/2011
[08:15] <dwatkins> ali1234: ah ok, I guess I should find out more
[08:15] <MooDoo> Our Thing 1 has a cold at the moment as is constantly tired, glad it's end of school yyear on friday.
[08:17] <dwatkins> poor things
[08:18] <MooDoo> dwatkins: yeah it's hard trying to console a 5 year old that want s to go to bed at 4 but he can't for a few more hours :S
[08:23] <MooDoo> join #debian-uk
[08:23] <MooDoo> oops lol
[08:24] <directhex> ali1234, dwatkins, clearly everything went downhill when they removed mono from the default install
[08:25]  * dwatkins sniggers
[08:37] <TwistedLucidity> If they get too much wrong, they get forked. (e.g. Linux Mint)
[08:38] <MooDoo> move to debian before all the problems start at all ;)
[08:38] <TwistedLucidity> Some of their choices might stick in the craw of the tech savvy - but for new users the choices might make sense. For most people "Simple == Good"
[08:40] <TwistedLucidity> MooDoo: Not really practical for consumer use cases; games (for example) might require newver features than Debian provides. (Well, Debian Stable anyways)
[08:40] <ali1234> directhex: i'm seeding your steam thingy since 6:30 this morning. it downloaded it about 5 seconds and it's uploading at about 10KB.
[08:41] <TwistedLucidity> Still...whatever Canoncial does it can't be as bad as the fluctercuck that's Windows 8. Man that thing is horrid, Had to set a laptop up recently...took me ages to configure the accounts etc. PITA
[08:41] <TwistedLucidity> The user took one look at it and asked "How long to get Linux on it?" I left them on Win 8 as I didn't have a HDD with me to image the drive, I expect I'll be doing it the next time I see them.
[08:42] <ali1234> xubuntu is best ubuntu
[08:42] <TwistedLucidity> ali1234 Kubuntu! BURN THE HERETIC! :-D
[08:42] <ali1234> no, you are the heretic. nobody likes KDE
[08:43] <TwistedLucidity> Looked at Xubuntu 13.10 recently, pretty sweet.
[08:43] <MooDoo> to be honest it's the same with everything if you know it it's easy, i've used windows 8 for months and months and I quite like it after a period of hating it
[08:43] <ali1234> 13.10 was pretty broken
[08:44] <TwistedLucidity> ali1234: Some of the KDE rendering is ass, screen tearing is a pain, quality isn't always what it should be (Krita, Calliga, Amarok all unstable) but nothing is perfect and I have (pretty much) got it to where I want.
[08:44] <ali1234> KDE font rendering is lol
[08:44] <ali1234> oxygen theme is just... it just needs to go away
[08:44] <TwistedLucidity> ali1234: Yeah, it always manages to look a bit "off" somehow. Not sure what's up with it.
[08:45] <ali1234> i actually know what is "up" with it
[08:45] <ali1234> i reported a bug and they told me exactly why it is impossible to fix it
[08:45] <TwistedLucidity> Can it be fixed? Ah...I see.
[08:45] <ali1234> so yeah... i'm not really pleased with the idea of the default theme having an unfixable bug due to the way Qt is designed
[08:46] <TwistedLucidity> Well, maybe I'll consider Xubuntu. But having "Kompare" a click or so away in "Dolphin" is pretty dang awesome.
[08:47] <TwistedLucidity> I don't like the way I can't force the titlebar to black. Not the entire window; just the titlebar. I guess I could learn how to hack the theme....
[08:47] <ali1234> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=283106 if anyone cares
[08:48] <ali1234> TwistedLucidity: xubuntu theming is incredibly easy and with some themes you actually can override the colours
[08:48] <TwistedLucidity> ali1234: Ah, but I'm on Kubuntu.
[08:49] <ali1234> well i dunno about kubuntu. i mean it has an option for everything, but who knows where it is
[08:50] <TwistedLucidity> ali1234: With something like the "Oxygen" theme you can't set the titlebar colour; only the window colour. I just picked a different theme that let me set the titlebar colour.
[08:50] <ali1234> yeah, well, oxygen sucks for many reasons
[08:50] <TwistedLucidity> Hmm....wonder if it has that font issue?
[08:50] <ali1234> the "bug" i pasted is basically... Qt can't do buttons with drop shadows and make them look decent
[08:51] <ali1234> due to limitations in the way it is designed
[08:51] <TwistedLucidity> Yes, yes it does. Now I've seen it I can't unsee it. You've ruined my desktop!
[08:51] <ali1234> and neither can gtk... but the gtk theme designers are smart enough to work within the limitations of the software
[08:51] <ali1234> yeah you're not the first person who has told me that
[08:54] <TwistedLucidity> ali1234: Like your pic at the end of the bug. So the shadow is rendered within the button area? That's retarded.
[08:54] <TwistedLucidity> Maybe easier to code, but not what a shadow *is*
[08:56] <ali1234> right. but there's nothing can be done about it in the QtWidgets model
[08:56] <ali1234> the only correct decision is... design a theme that doesn't have drop shadows on everything
[08:56] <TwistedLucidity> Well, workaround.
[08:57] <TwistedLucidity> I don't quite follow what a bug can't be logged against Qt, but then I only have a tiny brain.
[08:57] <ali1234> well, buttons can't draw stuff outside themselves
[08:57] <ali1234> that's just a fundamental thing
[08:58] <ali1234> and if you design using QML this isn't an issue since you can do whatever you want then
[08:58] <ali1234> but there is no such thing as themes in QML
[08:59] <TwistedLucidity> Hmm...well...remembering my tiny brain here...a object on the screen could gain a "margin" of sorts which is ignored for positioning etc, but gets used for shadows and what have you.
[09:00] <TwistedLucidity> But I am no Qt or UI expert; so that probably would lead to a slew of bugs "I mage shadows 200px offset and now I can't read my buttons!"
[09:01] <AlanBell> faux 3d always causes problems
[09:01] <AlanBell> see the top bar shadow for lots of them
[09:02] <AlanBell> one day raised buttons will be raised because they are GL objects modeled right
[09:02] <TwistedLucidity> I actually thought that the compositor would be doing the shadows etc "Button at X,Y. Shadow that, offset -4,+4; colour #00000, alpha 50%"
[09:03] <TwistedLucidity> Like I say, no expert
[09:04] <TwistedLucidity> Luckily the new fashion seems to be for "flat" windows. No shadows, no rounded corners, nada.
[09:07] <TwistedLucidity> Top tip: When running an install, don't click on "No" when you mean "Yes". face/palm
[09:09] <gordonjcp> AlanBell: 2.5D touch screens
[09:10] <gordonjcp> AlanBell: tiny beads under the surface that swell when a current is applies
[09:10] <gordonjcp> *applied
[09:10] <gordonjcp> when the button is raised, the button is *raised*
[09:11] <gordonjcp> it'll be great, a huge improvement in UI interaction, and everyone will hate it
[09:11] <TwistedLucidity> gordonjcp: Oh yeah, I rememver reading about that. That would sure solve it!
[09:11] <gordonjcp> TwistedLucidity: there was a neat thing I saw about varying the apparent friction of touch screens for things like slider controls
[09:12] <gordonjcp> by vibrating the glass slightly you break the stiction between the surface and your finger
[09:12] <gordonjcp> stop vibrating and your finger stops
[09:12] <TwistedLucidity> Well, rather than raising the button, I'd raise the edges and a symbol. That way you could navigate by feel.
[09:12] <gordonjcp> yes
[09:13] <TwistedLucidity> Technology - so advanced we're going backwards!
[09:18] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Bake Cookies Day! :-D
[09:48] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[09:50] <MartijnVdS> \o bc
[09:51] <bigcalm> Hi MartijnVdS
[09:55] <MartijnVdS> Yay.. need to rebuild my OpenwRT firmware tonight
[09:55] <MartijnVdS> http://git.openwrt.org/?p=openwrt.git;a=commitdiff;h=45c1d0704c17b0f0c166ec732bbefbb390c0b33d;hp=fdd86b954bab15f7490b1998795f910cd8721347
[09:55] <dwatkins> I've been using Windows (in a virtual machine) for about seven seconds and it already annoys me ;)
[09:56] <MartijnVdS> dwatkins: which version of iwndows?
[09:56] <dwatkins> Windows 7
[09:58] <MooDoo> dwatkins: you're too impatient, and you have to remember, it's not ubuntu.....
[10:02] <dwatkins> yeah, unfortunately not
[10:02] <dwatkins> ctrl+alt+F1 doesn't let me do things blindingly fast ;)
[10:04] <MooDoo> oh stop knocking it, there is nothing wrong with windows 7
[10:10] <dwatkins> I know, I'm just used to operating systems which do my bidding :)
[10:11] <MooDoo> dwatkins: you doth protest too much
[10:11] <MooDoo> :)
[10:14] <dwatkins> I could wax lyrical about the little useability issues I encounter every five minutes, but I mostly keep stumm.
[10:14] <dwatkins> This applies to all operating systems, since the tools I'm referring-to are mostly web-based.
[10:16] <MartijnVdS> yay web-based tools
[10:17] <TwistedLucidity> dwatkins: Focus follows mouse. FOCUS FOLLOWS MOUSE!
[10:18] <dwatkins> TwistedLucidity: that's related to my original issue (I wanted a window below my mouse to scroll without selecting it)
[10:18] <TwistedLucidity> dwatkins: KatMouse (other de-borking tools are available)
[10:22] <bigcalm> Remind me how one finds out the version of an installed package?
[10:23] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: dpkg -l? apt-cache policy?
[10:23] <bigcalm> MartijnVdS: ta
[10:30] <dwatkins> thanks TwistedLucidity :)
[10:42] <bigcalm> Gah, I keep doing this
[10:43] <bigcalm> git - I meant to commit a change to a branch but did it to the master by mistake. I haven't pushed, so how might I fix the situation?
[10:44] <SuperMatt> roll back?
[10:46] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: create a new branch now, git checkout -b foo
[10:46] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: then go back to the master commit, git checkout 32472987239abcdefg
[10:46] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: (or whatever the id of your "correct" master commit is)
[10:46] <MartijnVdS> then the scary bit:
[10:47] <MartijnVdS> oh wait
[10:47] <MartijnVdS> git branch -f branch-name new-tip-commit
[10:48] <MartijnVdS> that's not too scary :)
[10:48] <MartijnVdS> branch-name = "master" in your case
[10:48] <MartijnVdS> and "new-tip-commit" the id of the proper master commit
[10:48] <MartijnVdS> so you might not even need the checkout
[10:50] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: ?
[10:51] <bigcalm> Okay...
[10:51] <bigcalm> I'll have a go
[10:52] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: so, checkout -b, then branch -f master original_master_commitid
[10:52] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: then put this in your .bashrc:
[10:52] <MartijnVdS> . /usr/lib/git-core/git-sh-prompt
[10:53] <MartijnVdS> and after that, put this in PS1:
[10:53] <MartijnVdS> $(__git_ps1 "(%s) ")
[10:53] <MartijnVdS> (like so: PS1='${debian_chroot:+($debian_chroot)}$(__git_ps1 "(%s) ")\u@\h:\w\$ ')
[10:53] <bigcalm> Oh, I already have the branch name in my prompt, along with colouring. Makes life a lot easier :)
[10:56] <bigcalm> MartijnVdS: that appears to have worked. Thanks :)
[10:57] <MartijnVdS> \o/
[11:02] <directhex> moop
[11:03] <popey> moooop
[11:03] <MartijnVdS> noop
[11:03] <diplo> directhex: pimp your url, couldn't find it :)
[11:03] <diplo> yoop
[11:03] <directhex> http://directhex.github.io/steamos-installer/
[11:03] <popey> my vps has a ratio of ~5.3, desktop has ratio of 1.9 for that torrent
[11:04] <diplo> Mines only 0.6 :/
[11:04] <popey> left it running rate limited over night
[11:04] <diplo> Me to, seems you're preffered :)
[11:06] <popey> hah
[11:15]  * bigcalm throws the torrent onto his home server
[11:17] <bigcalm> error(s): [11:17:05] Problem connecting to tracker - <urlopen error unknown url type: udp>
[11:17] <bigcalm> Humf
[11:19] <bigcalm> I've allowd TCP+UDP in my router's firewall rule for torrents. So why the error?
[11:20] <MartijnVdS> "udp>"
[11:20] <MartijnVdS> ?
[11:21] <bigcalm> directhex: "30.5GB plus space for games" 30.5GB for the OS alone? o.O
[11:22] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: this isn't DOS 3.3 you know ;)
[11:22] <bigcalm> Pfft :P
[11:23] <directhex> bigcalm, steamos upstream defines 0.5GB for EFI system partition, 10GB for /, 10GB for swap, 10GB for recovery partition, and all remaining space for /home
[11:23] <bigcalm> Oh, okay
[11:24] <MartijnVdS> still quite a lot for the efi partition
[11:24] <directhex> the actual disk usage is closer to 2.5gb
[11:24] <bigcalm> So, why is the torrent not working for me?
[11:24] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: which client do you use
[11:24] <directhex> they're being *super* conservative, i think
[11:24] <bigcalm> Um
[11:25] <bigcalm> btdownloadcurses
[11:25] <bigcalm> From my .bashrc: alias torrent='btdownloadcurses --minport 6881 --maxport 6889 --max_upload_rate 150 $1'
[11:25] <bigcalm> Hehe, spooky
[11:25] <directhex> bigcalm, i don't think btdownloadcurses supports UDP trackers, or DHT peer finding
[11:26] <bigcalm> Is there a better headless bt client I can run on my servers then?
[11:27] <diplo> I use transmission bigcalm
[11:27] <bigcalm> diplo: I've used that on the desktop, I did not know there was a headless version
[11:27] <diplo> I'm sure they support cli as well, but I opted to use their web front end
[11:27] <diplo> ooh yes, works quite well ( for me anyway )
[11:27] <bigcalm> I see. Simple to set-up?
[11:28] <diplo> https://trac.transmissionbt.com/wiki/WebInterface
[11:28] <diplo> Very
[11:28] <diplo> Took me a couple of mins probably
[11:28] <diplo> All apt-gettable
[11:28] <diplo> https://trac.transmissionbt.com/wiki/ConfigurationParameters
[11:29] <diplo> Is the main area you need to change which is in settings.json from memory
[11:30] <bigcalm> Aha, it's transmission-daemon that I was looking for
[11:30] <diplo> Yeah sorry should have mentioned that.
[11:32] <diplo> Off to hospital, have any issues leave me a PM and I'll help if I can :)
[11:32] <diplo> ttfn
[11:37] <bigcalm> Humf, the web interface doesn't want to let me log in. Not so useful
[11:42] <bigcalm> There we go
[11:42] <bigcalm> Downloaded quickly enough :)
[11:42] <bigcalm> Now throwing 150KB/s into the mix
[11:54] <foobarry> guys, how can i use gmail for my work email instead of o365? how would that work if i want 2 separate gmail accounts? (personal and work accounts)
[11:56] <bigcalm> foobarry: you can log into multiple gmail and google apps accounts at the same time
[11:57] <bigcalm> Or you can use an email client, such as Thunderbird
[11:57] <foobarry> on my phone
[11:57] <bigcalm> You can add multiple gmail/google apps accounts to your phone
[11:57] <foobarry> its mainly to get round the issue that i can't read email on my phone with o365
[11:57] <bigcalm> You can't?  It works for me
[11:57] <foobarry> how?
[11:57] <bigcalm> Using exchange
[11:57] <foobarry> activesync?
[11:58] <bigcalm> I have an android phone
[11:58] <foobarry> how do u access the email though on your phone? web client, activesync, imap?
[11:58] <bigcalm> What OS is your phone using?
[11:58] <foobarry> android
[11:59] <bigcalm> Settings -> Add account -> Microsoft Exchange ActiveSync
[11:59] <foobarry> the imap implementation sucks and used my entire 3g allowance in 1 week. the activensync is a no go because they require admin rights (ability to wipe phone etc)
[11:59] <foobarry> did it ask you for admin rights?
[11:59] <bigcalm> I think so, yes
[12:00] <foobarry> my employer is not to be trusted not to accidentally wipe device
[12:00] <foobarry> and on principle i cannot give those rights to my personal device to someone just to read mail
[12:01] <foobarry> hence the gmail request
[12:02] <DJones> foobarry: Could you set the O365 mail to forward to gmail and set gmail to have a reply to address as your o365 email address
[12:03] <bigcalm> One has to go through a lot of steps to get to the screen where one can wipe a device
[12:03] <DJones> Externally people probably wouldn't notice, but you'd end up with the mails you send in gmail & the mails you receive in both
[12:03] <bigcalm> I don't know if your email admin has access to that, or if it's only visible to the account owner
[12:05] <foobarry> bigcalm: its two clicks
[12:06]  * bigcalm shrugs
[12:06] <bigcalm> If you know where to look, maybe
[12:07] <foobarry> a user has aciidentally done it
[12:07] <bigcalm> Nice
[12:07] <foobarry> its very easy in o365
[12:07] <foobarry> ^a user^users
[12:11] <popey> i thought you could override those settings
[12:11] <popey> I know I did a couple of years ago
[12:11] <foobarry> not possible now in o365 2013
[12:11] <popey> ☹ http://serverfault.com/questions/328828/how-to-disable-remote-wipe-for-exchange-2010-activesync
[12:11] <popey> "No"
[12:11] <foobarry> so how can i read 2 gmail accounts on my phone and keep them separate?
[12:12] <popey> easy
[12:12] <popey> the gmail app has multi-account capability
[12:13] <bigcalm> I did say
[12:13] <popey> you just add each account and switch between them
[12:13] <popey> yes, but you said via exchange which muddied the answer
[12:13] <popey> I'm talking only about gmail accounts
[12:13] <bigcalm> I was also talking about gmail and google apps accounts at the time
[12:14] <popey> i have 4 gmail accounts on my phone. seems to work okay
 on my phone
 You can add multiple gmail/google apps accounts to your phone
[12:14] <foobarry> sorry bigcalm i got confused ,
[12:15] <bigcalm> No worries :)
[12:15] <foobarry> o365 is stressing me
[12:15] <foobarry> gmail should spam filter a bit better too
[12:15] <popey> ʘ‿ಠ
[12:15] <popey> I find the gmail spam filter to be excellent
[12:15] <bigcalm> Ditto
[12:15] <foobarry> we have corporate o365
[12:16] <bigcalm> I never get spam to my inbox
[12:16] <foobarry> i think stuff has been disabled
[12:16] <foobarry> by my wonderful company
[12:16] <popey> you keep flip-flopping between moaning about gmail and o365
[12:16] <popey> which makes it hard to follow
[12:16] <bigcalm> I also never get spam to my inbox with o365
[12:16] <foobarry> no, i'm not moaning about gmail at all
[12:16] <foobarry> gmail is great
[12:16] <funkyHat> I find the gmail spam filter *usually* excellent, but occasionally it lets through stuff that should be obviously spam, and I have to check spam because it occasionally marks stuff as spam when it's not
[12:16] <popey> 12:15:37 < foobarry> gmail should spam filter a bit better too
[12:16] <foobarry> gmail will filter spam coming via my o365
[12:17] <funkyHat> Actually it went through a phase of marking nearly every freecycle email as spam even though I'd repeatedly clicked the "not spam" button on hundreds of them
[12:17] <foobarry>  gmail should/will spam filter those mails coming through o365a bit better
[12:17] <foobarry> gmail is spam free, largely, o365 is full of spam about property development
[12:17] <foobarry> and other such crap
[12:21] <foobarry> lol my first email from gmail team got spammed by gmail
[12:21]  * DJones contemplates a new laptop
[12:30]  * foobarry has it setup now. accoutn switching very slick, cheers popey bigcalm 
[12:30] <foobarry> undecided whether to use the o365 smtp or gmail smtp
[12:31] <popey> yay
[12:31] <foobarry> currently takes 30 seconds+ to send mail via TB to o365
[12:31] <foobarry> never known such a bad system
[12:34] <DJones> Looks a nice price, i7, 6Gb ram, 1TB hdd for £540, wonder what the downside is (apart from the default Win 8 install)
[12:36] <MartijnVdS> DJones: spinning rust disks, probably
[12:36] <MartijnVdS> DJones: also, 6GB isn't a lot these days
[12:36] <DJones> MartijnVdS: I would guess so, can't see a laptop at that price having 1 TB SSD
[12:37] <MooDoo> are we doing anything for the global jam this year?  or  is it to early to organise?  Get christmas/newyear out of the way first? AlanBell ?
[12:37] <MartijnVdS> DJones: you MIGHT get an 1TB SSD at that price.
[12:37] <MartijnVdS> DJones: just the drive
[12:37] <DJones> Exactly
[12:37] <MartijnVdS> MooDoo: didn't you suggest a hangout?
[12:38] <MooDoo> MartijnVdS: yeah that was a christmas one, but didn't get much interest in that lol
[12:40] <MartijnVdS> aww
[12:41] <MooDoo> just wanting to get involved with more things as I wasn ubuntu membership at some point.
[13:00] <TwistedLucidity> I have an HP printer. When I load photo paper and leave the paper type at "Automatic" or set it to "Photo"; printing fails due to thr wrong type of paper.
[13:01] <TwistedLucidity> If I force "Plain" (which *is* the wrong type of paper), printing works.
[13:01] <TwistedLucidity> Printing from Windows is fine.
[13:02] <TwistedLucidity> How the heck do I figure out who to file the bug against? (Kubuntu, HP (drivers team), HP (printer)....)?
[13:09] <foobarry> don't think much of this 3 bird roast sandwich
[13:09] <foobarry> tastes like chicken and mince pie
[13:11] <foobarry> according to this article , this could be noah's ark https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=39+26'26.32%22N+%2F+44+14'04.54%22E&hl=en&ll=39.440626,44.235098&spn=0.002059,0.00574&sll=39.428354,44.230746&sspn=0.00242,0.005284&t=h&ecpose=39.43429465,44.234594,2678.96,0,44.993,0&z=18
[13:11] <foobarry> http://www.viewzone.com/noahx.html
[13:12] <foobarry> One bitcoin was trading for as low as 2,560 yuan ($421, £258), according to the South China Morning Post.
[13:12] <AlanBell> MooDoo: I am up for the christmas hangout
[13:13] <MooDoo> AlanBell: cool :D
[13:20] <MooDoo> it's amazing how many people come unprepared for ubuntu membership meetings.
[13:20] <foobarry> without their deelyboppers and hot pants?
[13:21] <MooDoo> yeah that's the one
[13:21] <AlanBell> elf costume is only for applications in December
[13:22] <MooDoo> AlanBell: I didn't know that you can also get ubuntu membership for irc related work from you lot :D
[13:23] <foobarry> MooDoo: consistently appearing in top10 on ircstats :P
[13:23] <TheOpenSourcerer> afternoon.
[13:23] <AlanBell> you can indeed, there were lots of people who did oodles of support in #ubuntu and/or were operators
[13:23] <AlanBell> hi TheOpenSourcerer
[13:23] <TheOpenSourcerer> Back from a hospital :-D
[13:23] <TheOpenSourcerer> Thing 2 is fine.
[13:24] <AlanBell> yay
[13:24] <MooDoo> foobarry: foobarry I used to be at one point then I stopped coming in here for a bit so I've laxed a lot lol
[13:25] <foobarry> tbh not much support actaully happens in here
[13:25] <foobarry> its more community chit chat
[13:25] <TheOpenSourcerer> Mostly talk about food ;-)
[13:25] <MooDoo> harldy any at all, neuro is the one next in my headlights on the irc stats lol
[13:25] <TheOpenSourcerer> And chickens
[13:25] <jussi> lots of chicken talk...
[13:25] <jussi> :P
[13:25] <MooDoo> or chilies
[13:26] <TheOpenSourcerer> Indeed,
[13:26] <foobarry> and nostalgia and talk about smartphones
[13:26] <jussi> or drinking on trains...
[13:26] <MooDoo> or stabbing davmor2 or czajkowski ;)
[13:26] <jussi> haha
[13:26] <jussi> poor davmor2
[13:26] <TwistedLucidity> Oh good grief....the number of golks with their HP printers exposed on the public Internet. Jesus wept.
[13:26] <foobarry> i'd be in fifth place if i didn't keep changing my name
[13:27] <TwistedLucidity> (Was looking into my printing issue)
[13:27] <TwistedLucidity> s/golks/folks
[13:27] <TwistedLucidity> And a bug logged with hplip, see if they do anything. Last time I spoke to them, they didn't seem too interest in GNU/Linux.
[13:34] <dwatkins> TwistedLucidity: at least they're not webcams...
[13:35] <TwistedLucidity> dwatkins: No, but some are scanners
[13:36] <MooDoo> jussi: davmor2 and czajkowski fight a lot, just stay and watch :)
[13:36] <directhex> ok, ive posted detailed instructions regarding Ye Olde SteamOSe dual-boot. https://github.com/directhex/steamos-installer/wiki/Dual-Booting
[13:36] <dwatkins> I've just been discussing "What is a Raspbery Pi?" with some colleagues who have never used one before. It reminds me that many people have little idea about how computers work nor how to set them (or their scanners and printers) up.
[13:36] <dwatkins> directhex: nifty, what linux distro is it based on?
[13:38] <directhex> dwatkins... steamos!
[13:38] <dwatkins> aha I see
[13:40] <dwatkins> looks like Debian
[13:40] <MooDoo> dwatkins: steamos is debian
[13:40] <dwatkins> groovy
[13:41] <MooDoo> older version that wheezy iirc
[13:41] <shauno> directhex: speaking of which, that torrent is much healthier now.  I've only pushes 17gig so far, but it seems to be running like the hot proverbial off a shovel
[13:41] <dwatkins> it'll be interesting to see which graphics cards it supports
[13:42] <gordonjcp> directhex: great SteamOS guru, would you think a Core 2 Duo with a Geforce 210 would run it, or am I going to have to build a new HTPC?
[13:42] <MooDoo> dwatkins: nvidia at the moment, ati and intel soon
[13:42] <directhex> gordonjcp, i'd feed it a better gpu if i expected any games to run
[13:43] <gordonjcp> directhex: okay
[13:43] <MooDoo> http://steamcommunity.com/groups/steamuniverse/discussions/1/648814395741989999/
[13:43] <gordonjcp> directhex: I mean the same card coped okay with HL2 in a similar machine, before I nicked it for the HTPC
[13:43] <MooDoo> i tell a lie, it is based on wheezy
[13:43] <gordonjcp> not stellar but playable
[13:44] <directhex> gordonjcp, any card on "supported products" on http://www.nvidia.com/Download/driverResults.aspx/69372/en-us should work out of the box on steamos
[13:49] <foobarry> my little boy makes a convincing shepherd in the nativity http://i.imgur.com/zFPYBr3.jpg
[13:55] <popey> awwww
[13:55] <dwatkins> MooDoo: hooray, I have an NVidia card
[13:55] <popey> thats very cute
[13:55] <popey> Sam was a mouse.
[13:56] <popey> not allowed to publish any photos of the nativity ☹
[13:56] <TwistedLucidity> THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
[13:57] <foobarry> depends. could do. at that distance they are all pixels
[13:57] <dwatkins> I've been asked to take photos of the homeless shelter I'm volunteering for, but I suspect that homeless people don't want their photos taken for some corporate "look what we helped with" page
[13:58] <foobarry> he was in 2. was a sheep in this one https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=248707738618724
[13:59] <foobarry> dwatkins: need to find a fake actor to receive a bread roll
[14:00] <MooDoo> popey: I wasn't allowed to take photos or video at all, mobile phones had to be off...:(
[14:00] <jussi> hrm, hands are minorly cold now...
[14:01] <popey> oh, we were allowed to take pics/video, just told that they can't be shared on social networks
[14:01] <jussi> I guess in -3 I should actually wear gloves when cutting wood...
[14:01] <MooDoo> :(
[14:01] <popey> there's a kid on the school who cannot be photographed
[14:01] <jussi> popey: sinced when was IRC a social network? :P
[14:01] <popey> heh
[14:01] <AlanBell> and casts no shadow
[14:01] <popey> heh
[14:01] <MooDoo> a friend of mine was told under no circumstances was any image allowed on facebook, google+ rocks ;)
[14:02] <TwistedLucidity> Ha ha ha ha
[14:04] <TheOpenSourcerer> We had the same instructions popey - "you can film/take picture, BUT ON NO ACCOUNT MUST THEY FIND THEIR WAY ONTO ANY SOCIAL NETWORK!" (To be read in the voice of a thunderous female headmaster)
[14:05] <foobarry> but google image search is ok
[14:05] <TheOpenSourcerer> My kids was doing the sound (behind the curtain) anyway ;-)
[14:06] <TheOpenSourcerer> *kid
[14:06] <MartijnVdS> the sounds behind the curtain? Hmmm
[14:06] <TwistedLucidity> Meh, just get the approval of very parent...
[14:07] <TwistedLucidity> *every
[14:08] <jussi> food would be nice.............. nothign in the cupboard though :/
[14:12] <jussi> very wiet on the network currently...
[14:12] <jussi> quiet even
[14:18] <MartijnVdS> everyone's died from sudden lack of food
[14:18] <MartijnVdS> they were in a quantum state of dead and not dead (because of not eating), and your looking in the cupboard killed them
[14:18]  * dwatkins starts on the peanuts
[14:21]  * jussi eyes MartijnVdS stonily
[14:23] <bashrc> superposition
[14:24] <TheOpenSourcerer> Was just reading this rather interesting analysis of the fiasco that is Microsoft of late: http://mobileopportunity.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/has-microsoft-gone-nuts.html?m=1
[14:25] <BigRedS> Free Windows Phone makes loads of sense - it's a way to not get sued by MS for using Android
[14:25] <directhex> free windows phone won't help sell windows phone
[14:25] <TheOpenSourcerer> And in other news I won a bottle of wine from a tweet :-D
[14:25] <MartijnVdS> Isn't MS almost 40 years old, making this a mid-life crisis?
[14:25] <TheOpenSourcerer> directhex: +1
[14:26] <directhex> there aren't users asking for it. if someone goes into carphone whorehouse, it doesn't matter how good a lumia or ativ is. they want iphone or galaxy
[14:26] <ali1234> isn't windows phone already free?
[14:26] <BigRedS> I know several people happy with windows phones
[14:27] <AlanBell> TheOpenSourcerer: nice one :)
[14:27] <directhex> BigRedS, doesn't mean there's demand for it
[14:27] <ali1234> i mean if they say "windows phone is £70 but now e're making it free" and then knock £70 off the price of a lumia, they will be paying people to take them
[14:28] <BigRedS> directhex: no, but many people will buy what they're sold, rather than what they've researched
[14:29] <BigRedS> I took that article to mean free to the manufacturers, in an effor to get more companies to produce more Windows devices
[14:30] <ali1234> they charge manufacturers to make devices with their software on?
[14:30] <ali1234> no wonder nobody will touch it
[14:31] <TheOpenSourcerer> They charge most big OEMs to make Android phones ali1234
[14:31] <TheOpenSourcerer> They being Microsoft.
[14:31] <ali1234> right. which makes big OEMs hate them even more
[14:31] <BigRedS> well, yeah, but that's different-but-related
[14:31] <jussi> which is why tizen is getting legs...
[14:32] <BigRedS> if a Windows Phone OS costs as much to use as Android, but doesn't attract lawsuits from MS, it looks more appealing than Android
 they charge manufacturers to make devices with their software on? <-- it's cheaper than Android
[14:32] <TheOpenSourcerer> Not if you are a consumer or developer...
[14:32] <jussi> BigRedS: except consumers dont buy it....
[14:32] <ali1234> how much exactly does it cost?
[14:32] <TheOpenSourcerer> Well it's pretty much only Nokia anyway
[14:33] <TheOpenSourcerer> Other WP devices are almost all dead. Like Win RT
[14:33] <ali1234> i saw a lumia tablet the other day
[14:33] <BigRedS> jussi: they have 12% of the market I thought? That's not huge, but it beats Apple on the desktop
[14:33] <TheOpenSourcerer> And now NOK says it's working on an Android phone.
[14:33] <ali1234> it actually looked really nice
[14:33] <ali1234> except for the OS
[14:34] <BigRedS> I think I could get used to the OS
[14:34] <BigRedS> In the time I've used it feels far less unfinished than Android. And more like someone set out to produce a product than a rival
[14:35] <BigRedS> but maybe most of my issues with Android are through having used it a lot...
[14:35] <MartijnVdS> the big problem is that all apps have already been written twice, and nobody wants to write everything a third time, in a third SDK
[14:35] <TheOpenSourcerer> Anyway - the point was I found that piece an interesting critique of what MS looks like from the outside and what they might have to do. I personally think the split up and sell off would be the best for the shareholders in the end.
[14:35] <ali1234> how does android feel unfinished?
[14:35] <MartijnVdS> (twice = A&A)
[14:36] <BigRedS> yeah, that's what surprised me about WM - it seems to have most of the apps people actually want
[14:36] <BigRedS> (or the people I know who have them)
[14:36] <popey> 14:30:19 < ali1234> they charge manufacturers to make devices with their software on?
[14:36] <popey> they also pay software companies to bring their software to it
[14:36] <directhex> android is a mess, but it's a well supported mess with all the apps
[14:36] <directhex> android is the windows xp of smartphones
[14:36] <ali1234> apps are overrated
[14:37] <directhex> then you don't want a smartphone
[14:37] <BigRedS> ali1234: Oh come on, it's a meme all of its own. The magic back button, inconsistent swiping, about six different style ideas in Google apps
[14:37] <directhex> the defining feature of a smartphone is apps
[14:37] <MartijnVdS> directhex: and android will still get updates after April ;)
[14:37] <popey> carriers wont touch a platform without 100 or so very specific apps
[14:37] <popey> without carriers you end up selling in your own shop.. see Jolla
[14:37] <jussi> Jolla are doing remarkably well though...
[14:37] <ali1234> you mean the magic back button that is the only one that actually makes you go back?
[14:37] <BigRedS> directhex: I think the idea that you need half a bajillion apps to be succesful is largely wrong. There's probably a few dozen that account for the huge majority of use-cases
[14:38] <BigRedS> twitter, mail, a compass etc.
[14:38] <popey> its about 50
[14:38] <popey> once you have those 50 (to 100) you go to market
[14:38] <BigRedS> ali1234: yeah, but you can never really tell how far back it's going to take you, or whether it's taking you back or up
[14:38] <TheOpenSourcerer> ... Google Maps and Navigation ;-)
[14:38] <jussi> popey: also, Jolla do have *some* carrier support
[14:38] <popey> then you get the next 300, then next 1000 etc
[14:38] <ali1234> it never takes you "up"
[14:38] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: comes with the OS though
[14:38] <popey> jussi: not the point I was making
[14:38] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: usually
[14:38] <ali1234> it always takes you to whatever screen you were on before the current one
[14:38] <popey> ali1234: nope, not true at all
[14:38] <BigRedS> ali1234: no it doesn't
[14:38] <ali1234> on most other platform back is the same as up
[14:39] <MartijnVdS> in some apps it's VERY broken, in others it's sane
[14:39] <BigRedS> If I open K9 mail in 'all mailboxes' and then press back I get a list of mailboxes
[14:39] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: sounds like K9 is broken
[14:39] <ali1234> yep
[14:39] <ali1234> try using... gmail
[14:39] <popey> launch App A, go into App A somewhat, switch to App B, click a notification made by App A, you get to App A - some buried subscreen. Press Back, thinking you'll go back where you were to App B, you don't you go back in App A.
[14:39] <ali1234> popey: that's entirely not true
[14:39] <popey> it is
[14:40] <popey> i have done it
[14:40] <ali1234> firstly, applications shouldn't even steal focus like that, they should put a notification into the top panel thing
[14:40] <popey> where App A is play store
[14:40] <BigRedS> Launch app A which triggers App B (play store, say), press back and you often go 'up' (to the play store home page)
[14:40] <MartijnVdS> popey: it depends on what App A and App B have been programmed to do on Back
[14:40] <popey> I said tap on a notification
[14:40] <popey> i.e. you branch from App B to notification to App A
[14:40] <BigRedS> and teh hold-down-home thingy that shows all the apps has the play store screen in place of App A
[14:41] <BigRedS> ali1234: the gmail app only does gmail accounts
[14:41] <BigRedS> but, yeah, this is a meme all to itself - there's probably hundreds of people who've enumerated most of this
[14:41]  * TheOpenSourcerer has never noticed an issue with the back button. It seems to do what I want it to.
[14:41] <BigRedS> Android is basically the Linux desktop
[14:41] <popey> hah
[14:42] <MartijnVdS> popey: http://www.androidpolice.com/2012/09/18/ux-things-i-hate-about-android/ ?
[14:43] <popey> heh, yeah, I have seen that
[14:43]  * TheOpenSourcerer updates website to Joomla! 3.2.1 - Which works just like WordPress now :-)
[14:43] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: is it secure yet? :)
[14:44] <BigRedS> hah, and that's the Gmail app!
[14:44] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: also, does it not do a million heavy db queries anymore? ;)
[14:44] <TheOpenSourcerer> lol MartijnVdS
[14:44] <TheOpenSourcerer> Never noticed MartijnVdS
[14:44] <AlanBell> popey: what is "back" in Ubuntu touch?
[14:44] <ali1234> i have never seen that happen
[14:45] <popey> AlanBell: we dont have a soft button for back
[14:45] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: the db admins at my previous job cursed joomla (or its plugins) for being horribly inefficient, selecting everything from the database several times, and filtering/sorting on the client, stuff like that
[14:47] <AlanBell> like all big PHP apps, you think "I could do so much better if I started from scratch in something else and spent a few years building it"
[14:48] <popey> hah! just did it
[14:48] <popey> i was in irssi notifier, got a notification that some apps needed updating
[14:48] <popey> so I pulled down the notification, tapped it, it takes me to the play store
[14:48] <popey> there's an "update all" button, so I press that and accept the new permissions stuff by clicking ok
[14:49] <popey> it starts installing the apps, I press back and i dont get back to irssi notifier, I get to the home screen
[14:49] <ali1234> i just did that and then i pressed back and it took me back to gmail
[14:49] <popey> so it's inconsistent then.
[14:49] <ali1234> but only for you
[14:49] <popey> yeah, right.
[14:49] <popey> it works for you so I must be the only one affected?
[14:49] <ali1234> you can always never press back, if that's what you want
[14:50] <popey> "patches welcome"
[14:50] <popey> "you're holding it wrong"
[14:50] <ali1234> between us, yes, you are the only one affected :)
[14:50] <popey> etc
[14:50] <MooDoo> sigh why are people allowed to purchase domain names :(
[14:50] <MartijnVdS> MooDoo: ?
[14:50] <foobarry> had to bring my shaver to work today to do a shave
[14:50] <AlanBell> so, in firefox OS, that should architecturally get the back button right more often I think
[14:50] <foobarry> no time otherwise
[14:50] <MooDoo> MartijnVdS: "just purchased a xxx domain but wasn't sure what it's for"
[14:50] <MooDoo> MartijnVdS: not me customer.
[14:51] <foobarry> :-|
[14:51] <AlanBell> not that back buttons in web browsers work properly all the time
[14:51] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: I hope Firefox OS isn't as much of a memory hog as Firefox itself
[14:51] <MartijnVdS> MooDoo: ...
[14:51] <AlanBell> dunno, if I ever get a handset I will tell you
[14:51] <MooDoo> MartijnVdS: sigh lol
[14:51] <popey> someone has given me their Firefox OS handset
[14:53] <ali1234> MooDoo: what domain did they get?
[14:54] <foobarry> firefo.xxx
[14:54] <MooDoo> ali1234: can't remember just a genericname.xxx
[14:54] <MooDoo> trouble is the .xxx holding page is porn, imaging if you buy nottinghamchurchchoir.xxx for example lol
[14:55] <ali1234> lol
[14:55] <AlanBell> why would you.. I don't even . .
[14:56] <gordonjcp> MooDoo: <shrug>
[14:56] <gordonjcp> MooDoo: Rule 34 I guess
[14:56] <MartijnVdS> MooDoo: at least it's not a .travel domain. It's hard to convince people those are real
[14:56] <MartijnVdS> Same with .museum
[14:56] <MartijnVdS> http://netherlands.national.ethnology.museum/
[14:57] <ali1234> for reals?
[14:57] <MooDoo> AlanBell: they didn't realise xxx was porn
[14:57] <gordonjcp> MooDoo: how... what... <incoherent>
[14:57] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: .museum is real
[14:57] <MartijnVdS> gordonjcp: ah, you can't even :)
[14:57] <ali1234> but the rest isn't?
[14:58] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: .travel is too
[14:58] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: but "normal" people assume it's fake
[14:58] <ali1234> i know
[14:58] <MartijnVdS> they know .com, .net, .org, .nl, etc.
[14:58] <gordonjcp> MartijnVdS: indeed I can't even
[14:58] <gordonjcp> I am 40 and what is this?
[14:58] <ali1234> but is netherlands national ethnology museum real?
[14:58] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: Well, we call it the "Museum Volkenkunde", but yes, it's real
[14:59] <ali1234> but is that their real web page address?
[14:59] <AlanBell> MooDoo: did you encourage them to diversify their product offering to take advantage of the sunk cost of their marketing spend?
[14:59] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: that's one of them, listed on nic.museum
[14:59] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: they usually advertise with http://volkenkunde.nl/ though
[14:59] <ali1234> but what happens if someone wants to have a national ethnology museum in a different country?
[15:00] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: "tough, we were there first" ?
[15:00] <MartijnVdS> dunno really
[15:00] <ali1234> this domain system is completely backwards and dumb
[15:00] <MartijnVdS> OK, ali1234.name
[15:00] <BigRedS> it's in the same category as smtp in my mind
[15:01] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: nice idea, horrible execution?
[15:01] <BigRedS> it worked on a small network, and then nobody got around to replacing it before it got too big to be replaced
[15:01] <BigRedS> so many things are like that because "it seemed like a good idea in 1973 and nobody's had a good enough idea since to bother replacing it"
[15:01] <ali1234> no, i just mean the way they've set out that museum name
[15:01] <BigRedS> oh!
[15:02] <ali1234> it's backwards
[15:02] <ali1234> the country bit should be last
[15:02] <ali1234> not first
[15:02] <BigRedS> yeah, it should be ethnology.national.netherlands.museum
[15:02] <MartijnVdS> http://index.museum/land.php?country=UK&lang=uk
[15:02] <AlanBell> popey: how is the firefox os handset? is it the orange ZTE?
[15:02] <ali1234> or how about ethnology.museum.netherlands
[15:02] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: like.. nl ?
[15:02] <ali1234> right, exactly
[15:02] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: because who wants to type "netherlands" all the time
[15:03] <popey> AlanBell: yes
[15:03] <BigRedS> nah, I like the idea of an international council of historians managing the '.museum' namespace
[15:03] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: there's both "london.design.museum" and "design.london.museum"
[15:03] <ali1234> you could even have ethnology.national.ac.nl since presumably a museum is academic
[15:03] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: yes but we don't use second-level domains here
[15:03] <ali1234> well, you should
[15:04] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: tell that to the guy who set it all up
[15:05] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: .nl was one of the first ccTLDs
[15:05] <ali1234> fair enough then i guess
[15:05] <arsen> Ho Ho Ho
[15:06] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: .nl was created by the same guy as the Kremvax hoax
[15:06] <MartijnVdS> (Piet Beertema)
[15:07] <MartijnVdS> http://www.godfatherof.nl/kremvax.html
[15:08] <ali1234> that silly long museum url doesn't actually work for me
[15:08] <ali1234> it resolves, then times out
[15:08] <MartijnVdS> doesn't work here either.. must have abandoned it (lack of use)
[15:08] <ali1234> hmm i wonder why
[15:09] <MartijnVdS> bit rot
[15:12] <AlanBell> Azelphur: bad day for bitcoin?
[15:20] <Azelphur> AlanBell: *shrug* fairly standard boring day for bitcoin
[15:22] <directhex> dogecoin remains stable
[15:22] <arsen> as long as the dogs are safe.
[15:22] <MartijnVdS> directhex: such stable!
[15:23] <directhex> MartijnVdS, wow! such market cap!
[15:24] <SuperMatt> just... wow... http://lists.debian.org/debian-security-announce/2013/msg00235.html
[15:25] <arsen> for lols i mined some "stablecoin"
[15:26] <dwatkins> That sounds like BSD levels of dilligency
[15:26] <BigRedS> yeah
[15:26] <BigRedS> maybe they're still feeling it from the ssh bug
[15:27] <MartijnVdS> that, or maybe they used to link gnupg with libalsa 8-)
[16:00] <quorra> bye
[16:05] <SuperMatt> oh, good bye quorra...
[16:05] <SuperMatt> we hardly knew you
[16:05] <SuperMatt> like, at all.
[16:06]  * Laney got scared that you meant "good bye Quora"
[16:07] <Laney> not that I'm not cut up about quorra leaving
[16:35] <foobarry> didn't even have time to shave at work today
[16:35] <SuperMatt> you shave *at* work?
[16:35] <foobarry> didn't have time to shave at home since a week ago
[16:35] <foobarry> thought i might find more time at work
[19:13] <SuperMatt> well well well, looks like I'm going to be a racker
[19:17] <daftykins> o rly?
[19:17] <daftykins> what service?
[19:23] <SuperMatt> don't quite know yet
[19:23] <SuperMatt> I've been offered the job, but I need to study everything in detail tomorrow
[19:23] <daftykins> oic a job :)
[19:23] <SuperMatt> their hiring process is a bit fuzzy
[19:23] <daftykins> hehe
[19:23] <daftykins> well congrats!
[19:23] <SuperMatt> they ask you to come in for the interview and then pick the best fit
[19:26] <MartijnVdS> wrecker?
[19:29] <SuperMatt> racker
[19:29] <SuperMatt> rackspace :)
[19:33] <MartijnVdS> ah, cool
[19:33] <MartijnVdS> hardware or software? :)