[00:12] <tony-smlr> SMLR E115 Live now!  Video http://youtu.be/2kdsiusMCS4 Audio: http://live.smlr.us:8000/streaming
[00:25] <cmaloney> I've got dishes and dishes and dishes and dishes
[00:25] <cmaloney> and dishes and dishes and dishes and dishes
[00:25] <cmaloney> and dishes and dishes and dishes and dishes
[00:25] <cmaloney> and dishes and dishes and dishes and dishes
[00:25] <cmaloney> and dishes and dishes and dishes and dishes to wash.
[00:28] <rick_h__> you too? wife made school cookies, holiday cookies, casarole for dinner, and the boy helped so what a mess
[01:36] <cmaloney> heh
[01:36] <cmaloney> JoDee made some shortbread cookies
[02:10] <rick_h__> waf what was the lispy web stuff you showed at MUG?
[02:11] <rick_h__> nvm, closure got it
[02:12] <waf> clojure
[02:12] <waf> the clojure -> javascript thing is clojurescript, the server-side stuff was compojure.
[02:19]  * cmaloney is playing with Panda3d, which is a library for creating games in Python and C++
[02:19] <cmaloney> There's a Blender exporter that can export the meshes and other blendery things into the .egg format that Panda3d uses
[02:19] <cmaloney> IT's called "Chicken"
[02:19] <cmaloney> I <3 Developers.
[02:22] <rick_h__> waf: yea, my boss is prepping a big chat around functional programming and linked us all to http://swannodette.github.io/2013/12/17/the-future-of-javascript-mvcs/ tonight
[02:22] <rick_h__> so I'm writing up my rebuttal email...which is getting quite long :/
[02:25] <cmaloney> "and furthermore..."
[02:26] <jrwren>  rebutting what?
[02:27] <rick_h__> well, not rebuttal, but balancing out the blog post
[02:28] <jrwren> that blogpost starts out in crazy land, hello! clojure!
[02:28] <rick_h__> :)
[02:28] <rick_h__> my boss is a BIG closure fan
[02:28] <rick_h__> and comes from a 'worked at zope foundation' background
[02:28] <jrwren> closure or clojure
[02:28] <rick_h__> sorry, clojure
[02:28] <jrwren> ugh.
[02:28] <jrwren> JVM is evil
[02:28] <rick_h__> but hey, compiles you some JS :P
[02:29] <jrwren> clojurescript does
[02:29] <rick_h__> yea
[02:29] <jrwren> clojure is YAJVML
[02:29] <rick_h__> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6603154/ in case anyone cares what I think about the future of client side JS dev :)
[02:30] <rick_h__> see you next week
[02:30] <jrwren> the flame graph comparison is pretty damning of backbone
[02:30] <rick_h__> yea
[02:30] <jrwren> you hate angular?!?!?
[02:31] <jrwren> but
[02:31] <jrwren> bb but
[02:31] <jrwren> but
[02:31] <rick_h__> HATE
[02:32] <jrwren> why?
[02:32] <jrwren> what about backbone?
[02:32] <jrwren> what about ember?
[02:33] <rick_h__> backbone was ground breaking, but it's old, needs a lot of love. It's gotten a lot better over the years, but it's an incomplete solution that you'll constantly be working around at larger app scales
[02:33] <rick_h__> ember I can't speak to intelligently. I've never used it, only looked at it
[02:34] <jrwren> how old is backbone now? 2 or 3?
[02:34] <rick_h__> over 3 yrs
[02:34] <rick_h__> I looked it up for my reply :)
[02:34] <jrwren> hehe, nice.
[02:34] <jrwren> i didn't know it was that old.
[02:35] <jrwren> but I guess I've been completely away from that world for almost 2yrs, so over 3 makes sense.
[02:35] <rick_h__> yea, it's got a lot of history to keep up with and things have changed a LOT in client side MVC in the last 3 yrs
[02:35] <jrwren> yup
[02:35] <jrwren> A_LOT
[02:35] <rick_h__> I do agree with the original blog post that we're entering a world of "browsers and things have changed enough over XX years we need a new revision"
[02:35] <rick_h__> unfortunately angular could have been it but fubar'd it all up
[02:35] <jrwren> I think the biggest thing isn't any one framework, its how much it all has schanged in the last 1-3 yrs
[02:36] <rick_h__> right
[02:36] <rick_h__> really it's browsers, networks, mobile, and user expectations
[02:36] <rick_h__> they've all changes a TON in 3yrs
[02:36] <jrwren> its a huge reason i'm glad I don't work on some big web  app
[02:36] <rick_h__> anyway, back to the dishes. I just wasted the last hour plus doing this
[02:37] <rick_h__> heh https://github.com/juju/juju-gui
[02:37] <jrwren> because if you make a decision to go with one of these, in a year, you might regret it.
[02:44] <rick_h__> definitely, though most of these have a decent lifespan I think
[02:44] <rick_h__> I mean people have been using backbone for years, just don't get sucked into making it your dev world
[02:44] <rick_h__> and SOA ftw so you can change things up as you need :)
[02:44] <rick_h__> though that's more backend thatn client side MVC
[02:45] <jrwren> how do you SOA your SPA js MVC framework?
[02:46] <rick_h__> yea, just meant trying to keep apps split somewhat.
[02:46] <rick_h__> nothing says admin app has to be servied via same JS as front end reading app/etc
[02:46] <rick_h__> then again twitter's done huge re-arch's what 3 times?
[02:47] <jrwren> ah right
[02:47] <jrwren> but then... single knowledge base for devs, need to know N frameworks instead of 1, yada yada
[02:49] <rick_h__> yea
[03:16] <cmaloney> I think I'm in love.
[03:17] <cmaloney> Just exported an old snowman mesh that I did a long time back
[03:17] <cmaloney> and had the panda3d hello world program spin around it (in glorious white on gray, but still)
[03:34] <rick_h__> wrapping done woot!
[12:02] <cmaloney> Morning
[12:44] <brousch> Holy crap. I have never seen a road so icy. It's a skating rink
[12:45] <brousch> Made it 1/4 mile from home before I gave up
[13:35] <rick_h__> yea, slick out there
[13:35] <rick_h__> this coffee will taste better because of the drive out for it
[13:38] <cmaloney> I'm glad I don't have to drive to the office for the remainder of the year.
[13:40] <brousch> Salt trucks are in the neighborhood now
[13:45]  * cmaloney just created a smart mix called "prog metal explosion"
[13:46] <cmaloney> using Animals as Leaders as the artist to riff on
[13:56] <jrwren> raining here :(
[13:56] <jrwren> too warm. i wish it had stayed below freezing.
[13:56] <jrwren> high 20s is a great temperature.
[13:57] <jrwren> cmaloney: i've never heard of it ;)
[14:22] <jjesse> morning how is the ice out there?
[14:23] <jjesse> on that side of the state
[14:28] <rick_h__> not as bad I think. Little warmer.
[14:29] <jjesse> i think every school in kent county is closed today
[14:29] <jjesse> apparently it was really bad this morning
[14:37] <jjesse> hrmm looks like my corporate vpn doesn't play well with IRC :(
[14:40] <rick_h__> booooo
[14:40] <rick_h__> kill it
[14:42] <jjesse> well need it to access some servers today
[14:42] <jjesse> instead of driving into the office
[14:43] <jjesse> yeah i know its like 10 minutes away :)
[14:48] <jrwren> lots of corp block IRC ports, for good reason.
[14:48] <jrwren> bots on infected machines use IRC as a phone home for C&C
[14:48] <jjesse> yeah but my corp is very loose as to what it allows and doesn't, joy of being a small shop full of consultants
[14:49] <jrwren> ah, bummer.
[14:50] <jrwren> I mean, awesome company, but bummer about VPN
[14:51] <jjesse> 95% of what i do i don't need VPN anymore
[14:51] <jjesse> but when i'm building servers these days i need it
[14:55] <rick_h__> for cmaloney http://www.stgraber.org/2013/12/20/lxc-1-0-blog-post-series/
[14:55] <rick_h__> might want to watch that one <3 lxc
[14:56] <cmaloney> jrwren: Animals as Leaders? Some awesome musicianship in that band.
[14:56] <cmaloney> rick_h__: Oh, I'll have to check my rss feeds to see if I'll get those.
[14:59] <cmaloney> http://onethingwell.org/post/70581342332/wow-such-doge
[14:59] <cmaloney> I don't understand this, but it's awesome.
[15:04] <cmaloney> Back to subscribing to the Ubuntu planet.
[15:05] <cmaloney> Thanks rick_h__ !
[15:32] <brousch> jjesse: It is very nasty, until the road is salted, then it's perfectly fine
[15:43] <jjesse> well then i'm glad i'm heading out later
[15:56] <greg-g> g'morn
[15:56] <cmaloney> g'morning.
[16:09] <jrwren> good morning!
[16:28] <greg-g> alright, who has an awesome home nas that wants to help Debian: https://identi.ca/debian/note/BFn7ViBMSgWqNX8XMrow3g
[16:28] <greg-g> ;)
[16:30] <brousch> Archive.org wouldn't do that?
[16:30] <cmaloney> I wish
[16:31] <greg-g> brousch: might be an idea
[17:11] <greg-g> so, I set the LastPass hashing cycles thing to the max, which makes Fx lock up for ~3 seconds on my laptop
[17:11] <greg-g> kind of annoying, but, security?
[17:14] <rick_h__> ah, is that why it does that?
[17:14] <cmaloney> I'm having some garlic and garlic with garlic for lunch
[17:14] <rick_h__> I noticed when I started using firefox lastpass hangs for a bit when I first 2fa
[17:15] <rick_h__> didn't think about the hash cycles I've set
[17:15] <cmaloney> aka 2Booli leftovers
[17:15] <rick_h__> chrome has no issues with it
[17:15] <cmaloney> wonder if it's because Chrome can handle multiple processes better than Fx.
[17:17] <greg-g> probably yeah
[18:02] <cmaloney> Few things make me feel smug like ordering recordings that are releasable in other countries because they're in the public domain but aren't available here because of the clusterfuck of a public domain we have here.
[18:02] <cmaloney> see: Naxos Historical
[18:03] <cmaloney> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00008OP1C
[18:04] <greg-g> cmaloney: well done sir
[18:05] <cmaloney> Although I don't like the copyright grab that Naxos does
[18:07] <greg-g> yeah, see also: Bob Dylan's bootleg 'release' of only like 100 copies to extend the copyright
[18:07] <greg-g> he didn't do it, the publisher did, of course
[18:07] <cmaloney> Yeah, which is horseshit.
[18:07] <greg-g> yep
[18:08] <greg-g> copyright as incentive has failed, we need to get over it
[18:08] <greg-g> it's too broken, causes incentive to do anti-useful things, so get rid of it
[18:08] <brousch> Money is useful!
[18:08] <greg-g> (as a gov regulation, there is no natural state of copyright, it's all made up anyways)
[18:09]  * greg-g rants
[18:09] <greg-g> brousch: it's a little more complicated than that ;)
[18:09] <cmaloney> It's about having a stable of artists that can be entered into races
[18:10] <greg-g> heh
[18:32] <jrwren> how does that bob dylan thing work?
[18:33] <jrwren> one of the most disturbing things to me is how brainwashed the masses are about (C). for a country which claims to love freedom. we don't even challenge that we should not have (C) freedom. We just give it up and hand it over.
[18:34] <brousch> You buy it and are free to play it
[18:34] <jrwren> no i don't and yes, of course I am.
[18:34] <brousch> I think if you charged per play, the restrictions would be more obvious
[18:35] <jrwren> freedom means being able to do whatever I want with it.
[18:35] <jrwren> freedom means I can make 1000 copies and sell it. Why should I not be free to do this?
[18:35] <jrwren> ... or a million...
[18:35] <jrwren> freedom means there are no limits to this.
[18:36] <jrwren> anything else is a restriction of freedom
[18:36] <jrwren> but in the US we don't even think this way. We have been programmed to not think this way.
[18:39] <brousch> We have been programmed to accept that whatever technique makes the most money is the best
[18:40] <brousch> See Apple
[18:40] <greg-g> slavery.
[18:46] <jrwren> brousch: i've no idea what you are talking about now :)
[18:46] <jrwren> greg-g: debt!
[18:48] <greg-g> jrwren: that was the second one, yeah
[18:48] <greg-g> and debt ~= slavery (historically, especially, now it's just fuzzy handcuffs, but still handcuffs)
[18:52] <jrwren> greg-g: i'm making biblical references.
[18:52] <jrwren> greg-g: "the borrower is slave to the lender"
[18:52] <greg-g> jrwren: oh right, that
[18:52] <jrwren> Proverbs 22:7
[18:52] <greg-g> jrwren: did you read Debt by David Graeber?
[18:52] <jrwren> i did not.
[18:52] <greg-g> you'd like it, I think. Though it was badly edited (could have been cut down from 500pgs to 300, at least)
[18:53] <jrwren> ugh.
[18:53] <jrwren> i wonder if I could find cliffs notes :)
[18:53] <greg-g> there's 3 chapters in the middle you can skip
[18:56] <jrwren> reminds me of when Bane kills his bankroller in that Batman movie.
[18:56] <greg-g> ... his dad?
[18:59] <jrwren> no.
[18:59] <jrwren> the most recent batman movie
[19:03] <jrwren> Dagget. when Bane kills Dagget.
[19:03] <jrwren> "I'm in control here"
[19:03] <jrwren> "Do you feel in control?"
[19:03] <jrwren> "I've given you money"
[19:03] <jrwren> "And this gives you power over me?"
[19:05] <greg-g> dark knight rises?
[19:05] <jrwren> yes
[19:07] <greg-g> hah:
[19:07] <greg-g> 2013 IRS 1099 Forms will be available beginning January 31, 2014
[19:07] <greg-g> Dear Greg,
[19:07] <greg-g> This email is to remind you that the 2013 IRS 1099 Forms from Lending Club will be available no later than January 31, 2014.
[19:07] <greg-g> these two things do not agree
[19:07] <greg-g> mutually exclusive, even
[19:07] <jrwren> not, it works. you get them on Jan 31.
[19:08] <jrwren> they can't legally get them to you later than that IIRc
[19:08] <greg-g> oh, right not mutually, just one day of overlap
[19:08] <greg-g> right
[19:08] <greg-g> (speaking of debt, heh, I'm a slave owner)
[19:09] <greg-g> just very small portions of many slaves
[19:09] <jrwren> oh?
[19:09] <jrwren> how does that worK?
[19:09] <greg-g> you 'invest' in personal loans (mostly consolidation loans) in increments of $25
[19:09] <greg-g> either 3 year or 5 year loans
[19:10] <greg-g> you get your prorated interest from their payments
[19:10] <greg-g> if they default, well, you lose your $25
[19:10] <jrwren> sounds risky
[19:10] <greg-g> it is
[19:10] <jrwren> what are the returns like?
[19:10] <greg-g> they do all of the verification of income/credit score stuff
[19:10] <greg-g> one sec
[19:11] <greg-g> sorry, had to hug someone
[19:11] <greg-g> if you're safe, like 7%
[19:11] <greg-g> if you're risky, around 13%ish
[19:11] <jrwren> that is really good
[19:11] <greg-g> (that's including the historic default rate, too)
[19:11] <brousch> Like Kiva
[19:11] <greg-g> yeah, except you make money
[19:11] <brousch> But you get some interest back
[19:11] <greg-g> kiva you don't
[19:11] <greg-g> right
[19:12] <brousch> You are a micro credit union
[19:12] <greg-g> kinda, only it's for-profit
[19:13] <brousch> Do you have your own knee-capper?
[19:13] <greg-g> the thing that got over my incredibly high moral standards is that these loans are usually consolodation (credit card) loans at a much lower interest than the credit card companies
[19:13] <greg-g> brousch: DIY
[19:21] <cmaloney> Wonder if I can sign up for a Kiva loan. ;)
[19:21] <greg-g> oh people eating breakfast at 11:20am
[19:21] <greg-g> people == coworker who decided to sit right behind me
[19:21] <brousch> Anything after 10:30 is lunch
[19:24] <jrwren> i take it back. 7% is crap :p
[19:24] <cmaloney> jrwren: compared to my savings account, 7% is princely.
[19:25] <cmaloney> I couldn't shave a bitcoin more than my savings account rate.
[19:25] <jrwren> there are many stocks out there which pay well over that in dividends and aren't insanely risky
[19:25] <jrwren> and arguably are less risky than being a money lender.
[19:25] <cmaloney> jrwren: Awesome. Be my broker.
[19:26] <brousch> Do you not have a 401k?
[19:26] <brousch> Just bump it up
[19:26] <cmaloney> I have a 401K
[19:26] <cmaloney> it's about as bumped as you can get
[19:27] <jrwren> IRA?
[19:27] <jrwren> bump it up! :)
[19:27] <cmaloney> I have an IRA that consists of (most) of my 401Ks from over the years.
[19:28] <brousch> You are putting $17,500/yr into your 401k?
[19:28] <cmaloney> I'm puttin ghte max percentage rate from my check
[19:28] <cmaloney> whatever that is
[19:28] <jrwren> holy shit! 17.5k!?!?!  i should do that!
[19:29] <cmaloney> Honestly what I really need is a financial advisor that will tell me what to do with my money outside of "pay down those fucking credit cards"
[19:29] <cmaloney> because I'd like to evolve at some point. :)
[19:29] <brousch> Well until your CCs are gone, that is the best financial advice
[19:29] <jrwren> err wait, no, don't max your 401k cuz mutual funds are a scam.
[19:30] <cmaloney> jrwren: You're sounding like a nutritionist now. :)
[19:30] <jrwren> how so?
[19:30] <cmaloney> Don't eat fatty foods, except these fats are OK, but only in moderation but not with these carbohydrates and ...
[19:31] <jrwren> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/business-economy-financial-crisis/retirement-gamble/how-retirement-fees-cost-you/
[19:31] <jrwren> cmaloney: any one who says don't eat fatty foods, is misinformed at best, and a fool at worst.
[19:32] <cmaloney> jrwren: Right, but it seems nutritional advice (and financial advice) are like fashion trends.
[19:32] <cmaloney> Invest in your IRA except after labor day. ;)
[19:33] <jrwren> except after tax day! :p
[19:33] <cmaloney> hah
[19:34] <cmaloney> I'm convinced that no matter what I put into 401Ks or IRAs some jackass in govt. will get a bright idea to do something incredibly irresponsible and J and I will be utterly fucked
[19:34] <cmaloney> or in banking
[19:34] <cmaloney> I'm not even concerned if it will happen, only when.
[19:38] <rick_h__> hey, don't rain on my 401k parade. I've already written off anything from social security in my planning
[19:38] <brousch> Buy gold
[19:38] <brousch> rick_h__: Yes, I assume Social Security will not exist
[19:38] <rick_h__> you can't take that away as well or I might possibly only be left with my house by then
[19:46] <brousch> Houses not in the urban center will be worthless because there will be no way to get to your job when the petrol dries up
[20:06] <cmaloney> http://www.reddit.com/r/opensource/comments/1t8u4y/all_packt_drmfree_ebooks_videos_are_5/
[20:06] <cmaloney> This catches me at my weakest point
[20:09] <brousch> But PAckt
[20:10] <cmaloney> Yeah, I'm holding my nose while downloading the two Panda3D books I've been eyeballing.
[20:11] <cmaloney> the cookbook book is actually the one that I wanted, and it appears to have good reviews
[20:13] <brousch> There has been a professor giving PAnda3d talks at the last 2 pyohios
[20:13] <cmaloney> Yeah, I sat in on one of them
[20:14] <cmaloney> I had a change of heart about it
[20:15] <cmaloney> I used to think "Oh, but Panda3D makes it too easy, and it nerfs the development process. I need to make things from scratch to truly understand things"
[20:15] <cmaloney> And that's just dumb
[20:15] <brousch> heh
[20:16] <brousch> There is a game engine built on kivy if you're interested
[20:16] <cmaloney> How am I going to learn if I have to fit the entirety of what prompted them to create this library into my head before getting off the ground
[20:16] <cmaloney> brousch: Yeah, it looked interesting
[20:17] <cmaloney> I really wish I had my epiphanies sooner. :)
[20:17] <cmaloney> Bt I recently watched that Indie Game documentary and realized a few things
[20:17] <cmaloney> a) I'm not getting any younger
[20:17] <brousch> It takes a while of beating your head on things before you give up and move up a layer
[20:17] <cmaloney> b) I really despise the glut of platformer games out there
[20:18] <cmaloney> c) I'm not making any headway under the current model of thinking.
[20:19] <cmaloney> I guess I come from a mindset that was all about purity in rolling your own
[20:19] <cmaloney> and that's frankly bullshit.
[20:19] <cmaloney> There's a level of understanding that comes from knowing the tools and being able to drop down a level if needed
[20:20] <brousch> It comes down to rolling your own or learning someone else's. How do you want to spend your time?
[20:20] <cmaloney> but honestly if I need to invent the universe in order to bake a pie from scratch I'm never ever baking that pie
[20:20] <cmaloney> and that makes me sad
[20:21] <cmaloney> Well, I'm in love with the idea of learning OpenGL because I associate that with 3D graphics under Linux
[20:22] <cmaloney> but if the last CHC is anything to gauge it's going to take me longer to learn the ins and outs of OpenGL than it is to get something useful out of it
[20:23] <cmaloney> and by ins and outs I mean figuring out how to get the fucking cmakefile the OpenGL Superbible uses to compile anything.
[20:23] <brousch> Yeah, I have not touched opengl in Kivy, even though it's there
[20:23] <cmaloney> I dunno. Maybe it's a phase. But frankly I'm tired of getting down on myself because I can't shit out awesome right out of the gate.
[20:24] <brousch> Well that's because you don't use Django. Switch to Django and you shit awesome all day long
[20:24] <cmaloney> I thought Django allowed you to shit ponies which in turn shit awesome
[20:24] <cmaloney> it's like the awesome-shit-by-extension shit.
[20:25] <brousch> I joke, but that is my primary reason for using it. Whatever I want to do has been done, is relatively well maintained, and was done better than I could have done it
[21:14] <jrwren> ddjango really is all that
[21:48] <jrwren> i never knew about this: http://sourceforge.net/projects/ubuntuzilla/
[21:48] <jrwren> kinda a cool idea.
[21:48] <jrwren> would be a cool way to do nightlies or aurora
[23:35] <rick_h__> lmao "Sorry about that, how about we give you a deal to come back and give us more of your money...kthx" https://twitter.com/mashable/status/414169774521081856