| belkinsa | jrgifford, do you want to test chatb.org/#ubuntu-us-oh tomorrow? | 01:42 |
|---|---|---|
| jrgifford | belkinsa: sure | 01:42 |
| belkinsa | Thanks. Anyone else here is more then welcome to join us also. | 01:43 |
| Unit193 | Creeping on jrgifford, sounds fun. | 01:47 |
| jrgifford | Hah | 01:48 |
| gilbert | paultag: so discission on init-select is not going so well, and i'm not entirely sure why | 18:06 |
| paultag | yeah | 18:07 |
| paultag | I have no idea | 18:07 |
| gilbert | i don't really understand obstructing anything so simple, non-obtrusive, and solves so many problems | 18:08 |
| gilbert | there is an undercurrent of deferrence to the TC that i also do not understand | 18:09 |
| paultag | I think it's because everyone is tired of this | 18:09 |
| paultag | and any decision is better than continuing with all of it | 18:09 |
| gilbert | why? | 18:09 |
| paultag | because it's blocking positive work, and it's holding us all back pretty hard | 18:10 |
| paultag | I'm a strong systemd hardliner, but if upstart was made default, I'd stop fighting and just use it | 18:10 |
| paultag | I'd rather upstart than sysvinit | 18:10 |
| gilbert | that's the anti-freedom argument that keeps happening. why suport everyone working on the thing they like? | 18:10 |
| gilbert | *why not*( | 18:10 |
| paultag | because then we have to write (and maintain) all sorts of init things in every daemon package | 18:11 |
| paultag | and it means we can't be sure of feature x | 18:11 |
| paultag | e.g. we'd make spec files and unit files and initd files and … | 18:11 |
| gilbert | i'm sure feature x checks can be written, and when so choose another supported init | 18:11 |
| gilbert | if there are people interested in doing all those things, why get in the way of their interests? | 18:12 |
| paultag | perhaps, but once we switch to {upstart,systemd}, the other becomes hard to support, since we'd not be forced to ship init scripts | 18:12 |
| paultag | I wouldn't | 18:12 |
| paultag | but there's no one who's interest it is to patch every dameon | 18:12 |
| paultag | plus no one will maintain logind | 18:13 |
| paultag | outside systemd as pid 1 | 18:13 |
| paultag | which means a lot of things get broken | 18:13 |
| paultag | so the upstart or openrc or whatever folks would need to join the systemd team to maintain logind | 18:13 |
| paultag | which is a lot of work and code hacking | 18:13 |
| paultag | (or GNOME breaks) | 18:13 |
| gilbert | or gnome automagicially init-select's systemd | 18:14 |
| paultag | then why support something else? :) | 18:14 |
| gilbert | it could basically declare that it was incompatible with the other inits if the work didn't get done | 18:14 |
| gilbert | because people are interested in those other things, and freedom, i think, is the ultimate ideal | 18:15 |
| * paultag shrugs | 18:15 | |
| paultag | we'll see where it lands | 18:15 |
| paultag | if it's upstart, systemd gets torn apart and used as parts | 18:15 |
| paultag | if it's systemd, all other initds get torn up | 18:15 |
| paultag | afaict | 18:16 |
| gilbert | or different parts of the system choose the init they prefer: xfce and kfreebsd lands get upstart, gnome and possible kde get systemd | 18:17 |
| gilbert | its about choice and freedom | 18:18 |
| gilbert | and i can't understand it any other way, but maybe i'm too much of an optimist | 18:19 |
| paultag | I think it's bascially breaks down to those who think Debian's about freedom, and others who think it's about making a stable OS with predictable configs to ensure stability | 18:22 |
| paultag | e.g. some heisenbug when you swap out your libc and also init to foo when running software x results in a segfault or something | 18:22 |
| gilbert | that's not really a heisenbug as long as reportbug reports your non-default init config | 18:23 |
| paultag | yeah, but which was it? :) | 18:24 |
| paultag | the eglibc, the init, or software x? :) | 18:24 |
| paultag | erm libc* | 18:24 |
| paultag | anyway | 18:24 |
| paultag | both views are valid | 18:24 |
| paultag | and that's likely where some of that comes from | 18:24 |
| gilbert | that's when the maintainer says, hey, try swapping these things to the defaults and let me know if the problem still exists | 18:24 |
| paultag | you see how it'd not be first-class | 18:25 |
| gilbert | yes, but there is tons of second-class stuff already in debian that gets worked on, figured out, and fixed | 18:25 |
| gilbert | like all of the non-popular architectures | 18:25 |
| paultag | that's different than a release arch | 18:26 |
| paultag | if we get a bug on mipsel, we'll still have to deal with it or it's rc-buggy | 18:26 |
| gilbert | no, i mean everything except i386/amd64 | 18:26 |
| gilbert | but those really are second-class archs even though they are release archs | 18:26 |
| gilbert | they are not the thing that the majority of users use | 18:26 |
| paultag | meh | 18:27 |
| paultag | I can see it both ways | 18:27 |
| gilbert | i know... | 18:27 |
| thafreak | did I wander into #systemd-vs-upstart by accident? ;) | 18:33 |
| paultag | yep | 18:33 |
| paultag | well | 18:33 |
| paultag | not really | 18:33 |
| gilbert | not exactly | 18:33 |
| paultag | since gilbert and I are in alignment on philosiphy | 18:33 |
| paultag | but it's related | 18:33 |
| gilbert | you wandered into gilbert wants peaceful coexistence of all inits | 18:33 |
| paultag | yeah | 18:34 |
| paultag | which is great | 18:34 |
| gilbert | but perhaps overly idealistic | 18:34 |
| paultag | I like upstart's maintainers more, but I do like systemd more technically | 18:34 |
| thafreak | i don't like learning new things :) | 18:35 |
| thafreak | i'mma fork sysv-init and keep rocking it forever | 18:35 |
| paultag | do it! | 18:36 |
| paultag | openrc looks like a step up btw thafreak | 18:36 |
| paultag | it wraps sysvinit | 18:36 |
| gilbert | yea, its already called openrc | 18:36 |
| paultag | ye | 18:36 |
| gilbert | and debian may one day (fingers crossed) get packages for that | 18:36 |
| paultag | zigo really did great work | 18:36 |
| paultag | gilbert: it's in experimental | 18:36 |
| paultag | as of an hour or two ago | 18:36 |
| gilbert | paultag: oh, awesome! | 18:37 |
| paultag | NEW is a well oiled machine, gilbert | 18:37 |
| gilbert | nice :) | 18:37 |
| paultag | now that I have a finger again :> | 18:37 |
| gilbert | that's always useful ;) | 18:37 |
| Unit193 | paultag: Yeah, saw that you processed that and really got it down. | 18:39 |
| paultag | ye | 18:40 |
| paultag | and another new member is keeping it low | 18:40 |
| paultag | I can do large scale processes at once, and he's good at incremental processing | 18:40 |
| paultag | so it's a really nice team :> | 18:40 |
| paultag | so I did ~200 over vacation | 18:40 |
| paultag | paultag: {ACCEPT: 271, PROD: 11, REJECT: 24} | 18:40 |
| paultag | lifetime: | 18:40 |
| paultag | paultag: {ACCEPT: 1170, PROD: 140, REJECT: 136} | 18:40 |
| Unit193 | Need to reject more. ;) | 18:41 |
| paultag | yeah, only ~10% | 18:41 |
| belkinsa | jrgifford: ping | 20:05 |
| belkinsa | Woah, hey there, BobJonkman. | 23:40 |
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