[01:42] jrgifford, do you want to test chatb.org/#ubuntu-us-oh tomorrow? [01:42] belkinsa: sure [01:43] Thanks. Anyone else here is more then welcome to join us also. [01:47] Creeping on jrgifford, sounds fun. [01:48] Hah [18:06] paultag: so discission on init-select is not going so well, and i'm not entirely sure why [18:07] yeah [18:07] I have no idea [18:08] i don't really understand obstructing anything so simple, non-obtrusive, and solves so many problems [18:09] there is an undercurrent of deferrence to the TC that i also do not understand [18:09] I think it's because everyone is tired of this [18:09] and any decision is better than continuing with all of it [18:09] why? [18:10] because it's blocking positive work, and it's holding us all back pretty hard [18:10] I'm a strong systemd hardliner, but if upstart was made default, I'd stop fighting and just use it [18:10] I'd rather upstart than sysvinit [18:10] that's the anti-freedom argument that keeps happening. why suport everyone working on the thing they like? [18:10] *why not*( [18:11] because then we have to write (and maintain) all sorts of init things in every daemon package [18:11] and it means we can't be sure of feature x [18:11] e.g. we'd make spec files and unit files and initd files and … [18:11] i'm sure feature x checks can be written, and when so choose another supported init [18:12] if there are people interested in doing all those things, why get in the way of their interests? [18:12] perhaps, but once we switch to {upstart,systemd}, the other becomes hard to support, since we'd not be forced to ship init scripts [18:12] I wouldn't [18:12] but there's no one who's interest it is to patch every dameon [18:13] plus no one will maintain logind [18:13] outside systemd as pid 1 [18:13] which means a lot of things get broken [18:13] so the upstart or openrc or whatever folks would need to join the systemd team to maintain logind [18:13] which is a lot of work and code hacking [18:13] (or GNOME breaks) [18:14] or gnome automagicially init-select's systemd [18:14] then why support something else? :) [18:14] it could basically declare that it was incompatible with the other inits if the work didn't get done [18:15] because people are interested in those other things, and freedom, i think, is the ultimate ideal [18:15] * paultag shrugs [18:15] we'll see where it lands [18:15] if it's upstart, systemd gets torn apart and used as parts [18:15] if it's systemd, all other initds get torn up [18:16] afaict [18:17] or different parts of the system choose the init they prefer: xfce and kfreebsd lands get upstart, gnome and possible kde get systemd [18:18] its about choice and freedom [18:19] and i can't understand it any other way, but maybe i'm too much of an optimist [18:22] I think it's bascially breaks down to those who think Debian's about freedom, and others who think it's about making a stable OS with predictable configs to ensure stability [18:22] e.g. some heisenbug when you swap out your libc and also init to foo when running software x results in a segfault or something [18:23] that's not really a heisenbug as long as reportbug reports your non-default init config [18:24] yeah, but which was it? :) [18:24] the eglibc, the init, or software x? :) [18:24] erm libc* [18:24] anyway [18:24] both views are valid [18:24] and that's likely where some of that comes from [18:24] that's when the maintainer says, hey, try swapping these things to the defaults and let me know if the problem still exists [18:25] you see how it'd not be first-class [18:25] yes, but there is tons of second-class stuff already in debian that gets worked on, figured out, and fixed [18:25] like all of the non-popular architectures [18:26] that's different than a release arch [18:26] if we get a bug on mipsel, we'll still have to deal with it or it's rc-buggy [18:26] no, i mean everything except i386/amd64 [18:26] but those really are second-class archs even though they are release archs [18:26] they are not the thing that the majority of users use [18:27] meh [18:27] I can see it both ways [18:27] i know... [18:33] did I wander into #systemd-vs-upstart by accident? ;) [18:33] yep [18:33] well [18:33] not really [18:33] not exactly [18:33] since gilbert and I are in alignment on philosiphy [18:33] but it's related [18:33] you wandered into gilbert wants peaceful coexistence of all inits [18:34] yeah [18:34] which is great [18:34] but perhaps overly idealistic [18:34] I like upstart's maintainers more, but I do like systemd more technically [18:35] i don't like learning new things :) [18:35] i'mma fork sysv-init and keep rocking it forever [18:36] do it! [18:36] openrc looks like a step up btw thafreak [18:36] it wraps sysvinit [18:36] yea, its already called openrc [18:36] ye [18:36] and debian may one day (fingers crossed) get packages for that [18:36] zigo really did great work [18:36] gilbert: it's in experimental [18:36] as of an hour or two ago [18:37] paultag: oh, awesome! [18:37] NEW is a well oiled machine, gilbert [18:37] nice :) [18:37] now that I have a finger again :> [18:37] that's always useful ;) [18:39] paultag: Yeah, saw that you processed that and really got it down. [18:40] ye [18:40] and another new member is keeping it low [18:40] I can do large scale processes at once, and he's good at incremental processing [18:40] so it's a really nice team :> [18:40] so I did ~200 over vacation [18:40] paultag: {ACCEPT: 271, PROD: 11, REJECT: 24} [18:40] lifetime: [18:40] paultag: {ACCEPT: 1170, PROD: 140, REJECT: 136} [18:41] Need to reject more. ;) [18:41] yeah, only ~10% [20:05] jrgifford: ping [23:40] Woah, hey there, BobJonkman.