[01:42] <belkinsa> jrgifford, do you want to test chatb.org/#ubuntu-us-oh tomorrow?
[01:42] <jrgifford> belkinsa: sure
[01:43] <belkinsa> Thanks.  Anyone else here is more then welcome to join us also.
[01:47] <Unit193> Creeping on jrgifford, sounds fun.
[01:48] <jrgifford> Hah
[18:06] <gilbert> paultag: so discission on init-select is not going so well, and i'm not entirely sure why
[18:07] <paultag> yeah
[18:07] <paultag> I have no idea
[18:08] <gilbert> i don't really understand obstructing anything so simple, non-obtrusive, and solves so many problems
[18:09] <gilbert> there is an undercurrent of deferrence to the TC that i also do not understand
[18:09] <paultag> I think it's because everyone is tired of this
[18:09] <paultag> and any decision is better than continuing with all of it
[18:09] <gilbert> why?
[18:10] <paultag> because it's blocking positive work, and it's holding us all back pretty hard
[18:10] <paultag> I'm a strong systemd hardliner, but if upstart was made default, I'd stop fighting and just use it
[18:10] <paultag> I'd rather upstart than sysvinit
[18:10] <gilbert> that's the anti-freedom argument that keeps happening.  why suport everyone working on the thing they like?
[18:10] <gilbert> *why not*(
[18:11] <paultag> because then we have to write (and maintain) all sorts of init things in every daemon package
[18:11] <paultag> and it means we can't be sure of feature x
[18:11] <paultag> e.g. we'd make spec files and unit files and initd files and …
[18:11] <gilbert> i'm sure feature x checks can be written, and when so choose another supported init
[18:12] <gilbert> if there are people interested in doing all those things, why get in the way of their interests?
[18:12] <paultag> perhaps, but once we switch to {upstart,systemd}, the other becomes hard to support, since we'd not be forced to ship init scripts
[18:12] <paultag> I wouldn't
[18:12] <paultag> but there's no one who's interest it is to patch every dameon
[18:13] <paultag> plus no one will maintain logind
[18:13] <paultag> outside systemd as pid 1
[18:13] <paultag> which means a lot of things get broken
[18:13] <paultag> so the upstart or openrc or whatever folks would need to join the systemd team to maintain logind
[18:13] <paultag> which is a lot of work and code hacking
[18:13] <paultag> (or GNOME breaks)
[18:14] <gilbert> or gnome automagicially init-select's systemd
[18:14] <paultag> then why support something else? :)
[18:14] <gilbert> it could basically declare that it was incompatible with the other inits if the work didn't get done
[18:15] <gilbert> because people are interested in those other things, and freedom, i think, is the ultimate ideal
[18:15]  * paultag shrugs
[18:15] <paultag> we'll see where it lands
[18:15] <paultag> if it's upstart, systemd gets torn apart and used as parts
[18:15] <paultag> if it's systemd, all other initds get torn up
[18:16] <paultag> afaict
[18:17] <gilbert> or different parts of the system choose the init they prefer: xfce and kfreebsd lands get upstart, gnome and possible kde get systemd
[18:18] <gilbert> its about choice and freedom
[18:19] <gilbert> and i can't understand it any other way, but maybe i'm too much of an optimist
[18:22] <paultag> I think it's bascially breaks down to those who think Debian's about freedom, and others who think it's about making a stable OS with predictable configs to ensure stability
[18:22] <paultag> e.g. some heisenbug when you swap out your libc and also init to foo when running software x results in a segfault or something
[18:23] <gilbert> that's not really a heisenbug as long as reportbug reports your non-default init config
[18:24] <paultag> yeah, but which was it? :)
[18:24] <paultag> the eglibc, the init, or software x? :)
[18:24] <paultag> erm libc*
[18:24] <paultag> anyway
[18:24] <paultag> both views are valid
[18:24] <paultag> and that's likely where some of that comes from
[18:24] <gilbert> that's when the maintainer says, hey, try swapping these things to the defaults and let me know if the problem still exists
[18:25] <paultag> you see how it'd not be first-class
[18:25] <gilbert> yes, but there is tons of second-class stuff already in debian that gets worked on, figured out, and fixed
[18:25] <gilbert> like all of the non-popular architectures
[18:26] <paultag> that's different than a release arch
[18:26] <paultag> if we get a bug on mipsel, we'll still have to deal with it or it's rc-buggy
[18:26] <gilbert> no, i mean everything except i386/amd64
[18:26] <gilbert> but those really are second-class archs even though they are release archs
[18:26] <gilbert> they are not the thing that the majority of users use
[18:27] <paultag> meh
[18:27] <paultag> I can see it both ways
[18:27] <gilbert> i know...
[18:33] <thafreak> did I wander into #systemd-vs-upstart by accident? ;)
[18:33] <paultag> yep
[18:33] <paultag> well
[18:33] <paultag> not really
[18:33] <gilbert> not exactly
[18:33] <paultag> since gilbert and I are in alignment on philosiphy
[18:33] <paultag> but it's related
[18:33] <gilbert> you wandered into gilbert wants peaceful coexistence of all inits
[18:34] <paultag> yeah
[18:34] <paultag> which is great
[18:34] <gilbert> but perhaps overly idealistic
[18:34] <paultag> I like upstart's maintainers more, but I do like systemd more technically
[18:35] <thafreak> i don't like learning new things :)
[18:35] <thafreak> i'mma fork sysv-init and keep rocking it forever
[18:36] <paultag> do it!
[18:36] <paultag> openrc looks like a step up btw thafreak
[18:36] <paultag> it wraps sysvinit
[18:36] <gilbert> yea, its already called openrc
[18:36] <paultag> ye
[18:36] <gilbert> and debian may one day (fingers crossed) get packages for that
[18:36] <paultag> zigo really did great work
[18:36] <paultag> gilbert: it's in experimental
[18:36] <paultag> as of an hour or two ago
[18:37] <gilbert> paultag: oh, awesome!
[18:37] <paultag> NEW is a well oiled machine, gilbert
[18:37] <gilbert> nice :)
[18:37] <paultag> now that I have a finger again :>
[18:37] <gilbert> that's always useful ;)
[18:39] <Unit193> paultag: Yeah, saw that you processed that and really got it down.
[18:40] <paultag> ye
[18:40] <paultag> and another new member is keeping it low
[18:40] <paultag> I can do large scale processes at once, and he's good at incremental processing
[18:40] <paultag> so it's a really nice team :>
[18:40] <paultag> so I did ~200 over vacation
[18:40] <paultag>     paultag: {ACCEPT: 271, PROD: 11, REJECT: 24}
[18:40] <paultag> lifetime:
[18:40] <paultag>     paultag: {ACCEPT: 1170, PROD: 140, REJECT: 136}
[18:41] <Unit193> Need to reject more. ;)
[18:41] <paultag> yeah, only ~10%
[20:05] <belkinsa> jrgifford: ping
[23:40] <belkinsa> Woah, hey there, BobJonkman.