| rozzin | Hi. | 05:20 |
|---|---|---|
| rozzin | Someone on the emacs-dev said he can never find anyone helpful here. I'm here to be helpful. | 05:21 |
| SamB | 24 hours a day? | 05:22 |
| rozzin | Maybe for some sense of "helpful".... | 05:23 |
| mgrandi | people are usually good about helping here | 05:23 |
| mgrandi | they have to ask first =P | 05:23 |
| SamB | the mail said something about half-day response times being typical ... | 05:24 |
| rozzin | I guess I can helpfully `be there and listen' while I'm asleep. | 05:24 |
| mgrandi | ive noticed that a lot of people here are in the european/area/timezones | 05:25 |
| mgrandi | so if its 10 pm like it is for me they might not answer =P | 05:25 |
| rozzin | Oh, good--I'm US/Eastern, 5 hours behind them; so I can actually provide useful coverage :p | 05:26 |
| mgrandi | =) | 05:26 |
| rozzin | 00:30, here. | 05:26 |
| ale2 | Hi! | 14:02 |
| rozzin | ale2: Hi. | 14:03 |
| ale2 | =) | 14:05 |
| ale2 | Can you help me with a small question? | 14:05 |
| ale2 | sorry for my poor english | 14:05 |
| LeoNerd | Ask, don't ask to ask | 14:07 |
| ale2 | =) | 14:07 |
| ale2 | I have a question about user list in bazaar | 14:08 |
| ale2 | is it the same of server system? | 14:08 |
| ale2 | or there is a way to separate users list of bazaar and users of system' server? | 14:09 |
| ale2 | I use bazaar over ssh | 14:09 |
| LeoNerd | bzr has no concept of user permissions | 14:09 |
| ale2 | he use ssh, right? | 14:09 |
| LeoNerd | Anyone with access to the files can use it | 14:10 |
| ale2 | if I would like to add a user to bazaar, for example, I must add to my system | 14:10 |
| ale2 | with adduser | 14:10 |
| LeoNerd | Maybe.. depends how you want to run it | 14:10 |
| ale2 | I don't want to mix system's users with bazaar's users | 14:11 |
| ale2 | is possible? | 14:12 |
| LeoNerd | Then don | 14:12 |
| LeoNerd | Then don'r | 14:12 |
| ale2 | ok, I understood well | 14:12 |
| rozzin | ale2: Are you coming from CVS? | 14:12 |
| ale2 | no, I never use a DRC before | 14:13 |
| rozzin | ale2: What have you used? | 14:13 |
| ale2 | none, still now | 14:13 |
| ale2 | I'm looking for a system review | 14:13 |
| LeoNerd | bzr itself doesn't care who owns the files... author names are already stored and set by whoever committed it | 14:13 |
| ale2 | I saw cvs, git, bazaar | 14:14 |
| ale2 | and I'm reading about all of them | 14:14 |
| rozzin | ale2: You have never used *any* version control system? | 14:14 |
| LeoNerd | rozzin: such people do exist ;) | 14:14 |
| ale2 | not until now :D | 14:14 |
| rozzin | OK. | 14:14 |
| ale2 | you scared me :P | 14:15 |
| ale2 | my cousin asked to me to find a way to track the changes of his project | 14:16 |
| ale2 | he has a very small software house | 14:16 |
| ale2 | and I will help him | 14:16 |
| rozzin | Well, it's just interesting--usually questions like that come from people who are already accustomed to using some other tool. | 14:16 |
| ale2 | I have to give up? | 14:16 |
| LeoNerd | Gaaahh | 14:16 |
| LeoNerd | ale2: are you listening to me at all? | 14:17 |
| ale2 | yes LeoNerd | 14:17 |
| LeoNerd | Then what on earth leads you to that idea? | 14:17 |
| LeoNerd | You want multiple users to be able to use bzr, without adding those users on the system level. YES THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID YOU CAN DO | 14:17 |
| ale2 | rozzin scared me :D :D | 14:18 |
| rozzin | Sorry. | 14:18 |
| ale2 | i'm joke :D | 14:18 |
| LeoNerd | bzr users are TOTALLY INDEPENDENT of system users. (for the fourth time:) bzr doesn't care who owns the files, it stores user names, it does not care about owner uid of the underlying files. | 14:18 |
| ale2 | mh, I understand | 14:19 |
| LeoNerd | Infact on a multi-user server setup you can (and probably want to) have every file owned by -the same- user, probably called 'bzr' or maybe a user per project, to which every real person who needs access has an ssh key | 14:19 |
| ale2 | aah!! | 14:20 |
| ale2 | I take advantage of you for only two second | 14:21 |
| ale2 | tell my if I understand | 14:21 |
| ale2 | I have only one users in my system calls "bzr" | 14:21 |
| ale2 | 5 employees connect with the same user | 14:21 |
| ale2 | but bzr can remember one of he with the nickname | 14:22 |
| LeoNerd | Indeedy | 14:22 |
| ale2 | sorry but I have a small problem with english :D :D | 14:23 |
| ale2 | but I'm happy to understand :D | 14:23 |
| ale2 | thank you very much!! | 14:24 |
| rozzin | Normally we just have people use their own accounts, though. | 14:25 |
| LeoNerd | Well yes; at this point you're not massively using the D part of DVCS | 14:26 |
| rozzin | Or, if they don't have an account on the server, then you have them send their changesets to someone else who does have an account. | 14:27 |
| ale2 | when I have a dedicated server with bzr, I use it | 14:27 |
| rozzin | For example, you make a bunch of changes on your computer, then you do "bzr send -o mychanges.patch ..." and mail the project leader that patch, and the project leader merges it into the main codebase and publishes it. | 14:28 |
| ale2 | clear | 14:29 |
| rozzin | ale2: Is your cousin a developer, or just a manager? | 14:30 |
| ale2 | both | 14:37 |
| ale2 | but he use only windows | 14:37 |
| ale2 | without revision history of his code | 14:38 |
| ale2 | brr | 14:38 |
| rozzin | ale2: How big is his dev team? Just him? | 14:49 |
| ale2 | 5-6 developers | 14:52 |
| ale2 | is pretty small | 14:52 |
| rozzin | That's pretty big to be running with no version control. | 14:58 |
| rozzin | How do they collaborate on the same code? Do they have the code on a network drive? | 14:59 |
| rozzin | Or do multiple people not work on the same thing? | 15:00 |
| rozzin | ale2: Why do you not want to give all of the developers ssh accounts on the bzr server? | 15:06 |
| ale2 | rozzin: yes, they collaborate on the same code and they have it on a ftp server | 15:15 |
| ale2 | but happened that an edit crashed all code and no-one knows who delete a part of code | 15:16 |
| ale2 | and my cousin ask me if I know a method to save a things similar to changcode | 15:17 |
| ale2 | for me, is the same give or not an ssh accounts to all developers | 15:17 |
| ale2 | but I want to test bazaar on my local pc | 15:18 |
| ale2 | and I don't want to mix users =) | 15:18 |
| ale2 | that's all!! | 15:18 |
| rozzin | I'm not sure I understand what "don't want to mix users" means. | 15:19 |
| ale2 | sorry | 15:19 |
| fullermd | Neither do I. Users are always better after you cram them in the blender... | 15:19 |
| ale2 | I mean mix users of my personal system with users of bazaar | 15:19 |
| ale2 | lol fullermd :D | 15:20 |
| rozzin | ale2: Do you mean "mix users of your personal system with users of the ssh server"? | 15:20 |
| ale2 | of bazaar server | 15:20 |
| ale2 | but bazaar use ssh, right? | 15:20 |
| fullermd | bzr doesn't really have "users" in any particularly broad sense. It stores a committer identity for each commit, but aside from that it doesn't care about the matter one way or another. | 15:21 |
| rozzin | I think I understand. | 15:21 |
| ale2 | is so difficult to me to speak in english :D | 15:21 |
| ale2 | for me* | 15:22 |
| fullermd | ssh is a way (the most common, probably the best, but not the only) for people to exchange commits once they're made. | 15:22 |
| rozzin | ale2: Yes, bzr itself doesn't handle authentication or access-control at the server. | 15:22 |
| fullermd | And it requires some sort of auth/user accounts/whatnot, but strictly speaking that's outside bzr's sphere of caring. | 15:22 |
| fullermd | Or maybe it's a hypercube of caring. Anyway. | 15:22 |
| ale2 | (thumb up) | 15:23 |
| ale2 | :D | 15:23 |
| ale2 | anyway, is bazaar the correct answer to my cousin's question? | 15:24 |
| rozzin | ale2: login/auth and access control are managed by something else--a transport--like ssh (if you're using ssh as your way of communicating with the server) or a web server like apache (if you're using HTTP). | 15:24 |
| ale2 | I think yes =D | 15:24 |
| fullermd | Well, it's sure as heck a better answer than "CVS". | 15:24 |
| ale2 | but if I use http, I can't send change to server, right? | 15:24 |
| ale2 | thanks fullermd | 15:25 |
| fullermd | The only people for whom CVS is a good answer carry titles like "Inquisitor"... | 15:25 |
| rozzin | ale2: I believe it's possible to give write access via HTTP, but I think it's more complicated to set up than just giving people ssh accounts. | 15:25 |
| ale2 | yes, I read | 15:26 |
| rozzin | I'm not a really experienced webserver admin, though. | 15:26 |
| ale2 | me too :P | 15:26 |
| fullermd | At one point the only way to do it was DAV, and ew. I think you can technically do it via the HTTP smart server, but that's not much less ew. | 15:26 |
| rozzin | In any case, since I understand what you mean now-- | 15:26 |
| rozzin | ale2: It's possible to use bzr on your local PC without even having a network connection. | 15:27 |
| fullermd | One wacky possibility that has occasionally been workable is to run the standalone smartserver in wide-open mode. | 15:27 |
| fullermd | That requires special circumstances to not be a horrifically bad idea, but they do occasionally come up. | 15:28 |
| ale2 | I have a small network in my home ;-) | 15:28 |
| fullermd | e.g., you have to trust everybody who can possibly get network access to it, since it's... y'know. Wide open. | 15:28 |
| ale2 | mh, interesting | 15:29 |
| rozzin | ale2: You create a local repository with "bzr init-repo", create a branch inside it with "bzr init", add files and commit them (entirely offline), and then later do a "bzr push bzr+ssh://myserver/..." of your branch to send it to a server if/when you decide that you want to publish/share your branch. | 15:29 |
| ale2 | they works in the same agency :D | 15:29 |
| fullermd | But if it's on an inside protected network at a company, where only the devs can access it anyway, it's just possible it could fail to fail. | 15:29 |
| fullermd | But ssh is probably better all around, really. Especially with such a small set of users needing to be setup. | 15:30 |
| ale2 | yes rozzin, I read =) | 15:30 |
| rozzin | ale2: As as LeoNerd was saying, bzr doesn't care about what your local user is or whether it's the same name/UID as a remote acccount that you might have on some server somewhere; | 15:31 |
| rozzin | ale2: bzr just knows what name and e-mail address you told it with "bzr whoami". | 15:31 |
| ale2 | I understand! =) | 15:32 |
| ale2 | and it will be useful ;) | 15:32 |
| rozzin | ale2: Do you have bzr installed on your PC yet? :) | 15:33 |
| ale2 | yes | 15:33 |
| ale2 | and Bazaar Explorer installed in other windows PC | 15:34 |
| ale2 | because in future, my cousin will use it from windows | 15:34 |
| ale2 | (my pc is an Arch :P) | 15:34 |
| rozzin | Ah. | 15:34 |
| ale2 | uff, is so complicated.. :( | 15:35 |
| rozzin | Is it? | 15:35 |
| ale2 | I hate windows | 15:36 |
| ale2 | it a complication, ehehe | 15:36 |
| rozzin | Ah. | 15:36 |
| ale2 | hihi | 15:36 |
| ale2 | and I will use ssh on windows pc to my pc | 15:37 |
| ale2 | but I think that's simple | 15:37 |
| rozzin | I've never tried having Windows people using bzr Explorer. | 15:38 |
| fullermd | Remember that in bzr there's a conceptual separation between "working and changing and committing" on the one hand and "sharing/combining those commits with other people", and only that latter involves and ssh or http or whatnot. | 15:39 |
| rozzin | I introduced some Mac people to it and they all discarded it pretty quickly, in favour of just using "bzr qcommit", "bzr qlog", and "bzr qdiff" commands. | 15:39 |
| fullermd | So you can comfortably ignore all that stuff while you get through "learning to use bzr for actual code work" part. | 15:39 |
| ale2 | if I'll succeed, I'll write you :) | 15:40 |
| rozzin | ale2: Have you also looked at TortoiseBzr yet? | 15:40 |
| ale2 | not yet | 15:40 |
| rozzin | ale2: What editor or IDE do people on your cousins team use? | 15:41 |
| rozzin | ale2: MSVC? Eclipse? | 15:41 |
| ale2 | they wrote in c# | 15:41 |
| ale2 | I don't know what IDE they uses | 15:41 |
| ale2 | I know there are a lot of text file | 15:41 |
| ale2 | and mayble some executable | 15:42 |
| rozzin | ale2: You may want to find out and see if there is a plugin for their IDE. | 15:42 |
| ale2 | but I read bzr can process executable files | 15:42 |
| ale2 | ok, I will find | 15:42 |
| rozzin | Yes; bzr can deal with binary files. | 15:43 |
| ale2 | I hope they don't use Visual Studio :D | 15:43 |
| fullermd | I'm not aware of any IDE plugins that are much beyond POC status. | 15:43 |
| rozzin | whether to store the binary files along with the source code in version control, or in another place, is a whole other question though. | 15:44 |
| rozzin | Mmmm: http://wiki.bazaar.canonical.com/VisualStudioIntegration | 16:08 |
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