[05:20] <rozzin> Hi.
[05:21] <rozzin> Someone on the emacs-dev said he can never find anyone helpful here. I'm here to be helpful.
[05:22] <SamB> 24 hours a day?
[05:23] <rozzin> Maybe for some sense of "helpful"....
[05:23] <mgrandi> people are usually good about helping here
[05:23] <mgrandi> they have to ask first =P
[05:24] <SamB> the mail said something about half-day response times being typical ...
[05:24] <rozzin> I guess I can helpfully `be there and listen' while I'm asleep.
[05:25] <mgrandi> ive noticed that a lot of people here are in the european/area/timezones
[05:25] <mgrandi> so if its 10 pm like it is for me they might not answer =P
[05:26] <rozzin> Oh, good--I'm US/Eastern, 5 hours behind them; so I can actually provide useful coverage :p
[05:26] <mgrandi> =)
[05:26] <rozzin> 00:30, here.
[14:02] <ale2> Hi!
[14:03] <rozzin> ale2: Hi.
[14:05] <ale2> =)
[14:05] <ale2> Can you help me with a small question?
[14:05] <ale2> sorry for my poor english
[14:07] <LeoNerd> Ask, don't ask to ask
[14:07] <ale2> =)
[14:08] <ale2> I have a question about user list in bazaar
[14:08] <ale2> is it the same of server system?
[14:09] <ale2> or there is a way to separate users list of bazaar and users of system' server?
[14:09] <ale2> I use bazaar over ssh
[14:09] <LeoNerd> bzr has no concept of user permissions
[14:09] <ale2> he use ssh, right?
[14:10] <LeoNerd> Anyone with access to the files can use it
[14:10] <ale2> if I would like to add a user to bazaar, for example, I must add to my system
[14:10] <ale2> with adduser
[14:10] <LeoNerd> Maybe.. depends how you want to run it
[14:11] <ale2> I don't want to mix system's users with bazaar's users
[14:12] <ale2> is possible?
[14:12] <LeoNerd> Then don
[14:12] <LeoNerd> Then don'r
[14:12] <ale2> ok, I understood well
[14:12] <rozzin> ale2: Are you coming from CVS?
[14:13] <ale2> no, I never use a DRC before
[14:13] <rozzin> ale2: What have you used?
[14:13] <ale2> none, still now
[14:13] <ale2> I'm looking for a system review
[14:13] <LeoNerd> bzr itself doesn't care who owns the files... author names are already stored and set by whoever committed it
[14:14] <ale2> I saw cvs, git, bazaar
[14:14] <ale2> and I'm reading about all of them
[14:14] <rozzin> ale2: You have never used *any* version control system?
[14:14] <LeoNerd> rozzin: such people do exist ;)
[14:14] <ale2> not until now :D
[14:14] <rozzin> OK.
[14:15] <ale2> you scared me :P
[14:16] <ale2> my cousin asked to me to find a way to track the changes of his project
[14:16] <ale2> he has a very small software house
[14:16] <ale2> and I will help him
[14:16] <rozzin> Well, it's just interesting--usually questions like that come from people who are already accustomed to using some other tool.
[14:16] <ale2> I have to give up?
[14:16] <LeoNerd> Gaaahh
[14:17] <LeoNerd> ale2: are you listening to me at all?
[14:17] <ale2> yes LeoNerd
[14:17] <LeoNerd> Then what on earth leads you to that idea?
[14:17] <LeoNerd> You want multiple users to be able to use bzr, without adding those users on the system level. YES THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID YOU CAN DO
[14:18] <ale2> rozzin scared me :D :D
[14:18] <rozzin> Sorry.
[14:18] <ale2> i'm joke :D
[14:18] <LeoNerd> bzr users are TOTALLY INDEPENDENT of system users. (for the fourth time:) bzr doesn't care who owns the files, it stores user names, it does not care about owner uid of the underlying files.
[14:19] <ale2> mh, I understand
[14:19] <LeoNerd> Infact on a multi-user server setup you can (and probably want to) have every file owned by -the same- user, probably called 'bzr' or maybe a user per project, to which every real person who needs access has an ssh key
[14:20] <ale2> aah!!
[14:21] <ale2> I take advantage of you for only two second
[14:21] <ale2> tell my if I understand
[14:21] <ale2> I have only one users in my system calls "bzr"
[14:21] <ale2> 5 employees connect with the same user
[14:22] <ale2> but bzr can remember one of he with the nickname
[14:22] <LeoNerd> Indeedy
[14:23] <ale2> sorry but I have a small problem with english :D :D
[14:23] <ale2> but I'm happy to understand :D
[14:24] <ale2> thank you very much!!
[14:25] <rozzin> Normally we just have people use their own accounts, though.
[14:26] <LeoNerd> Well yes; at this point you're not massively using the D part of DVCS
[14:27] <rozzin> Or, if they don't have an account on the server, then you have them send their changesets to someone else who does have an account.
[14:27] <ale2> when I have a dedicated server with bzr, I use it
[14:28] <rozzin> For example, you make a bunch of changes on your computer, then you do "bzr send -o mychanges.patch ..." and mail the project leader that patch, and the project leader merges it into the main codebase and publishes it.
[14:29] <ale2> clear
[14:30] <rozzin> ale2: Is your cousin a developer, or just a manager?
[14:37] <ale2> both
[14:37] <ale2> but he use only windows
[14:38] <ale2> without revision history of his code
[14:38] <ale2> brr
[14:49] <rozzin> ale2: How big is his dev team? Just him?
[14:52] <ale2> 5-6 developers
[14:52] <ale2> is pretty small
[14:58] <rozzin> That's pretty big to be running with no version control.
[14:59] <rozzin> How do they collaborate on the same code? Do they have the code on a network drive?
[15:00] <rozzin> Or do multiple people not work on the same thing?
[15:06] <rozzin> ale2: Why do you not want to give all of the developers ssh accounts on the bzr server?
[15:15] <ale2> rozzin: yes, they collaborate on the same code and they have it on a ftp server
[15:16] <ale2> but happened that an edit crashed all code and no-one knows who delete a part of code
[15:17] <ale2> and my cousin ask me if I know a method to save a things similar to changcode
[15:17] <ale2> for me, is the same give or not an ssh accounts to all developers
[15:18] <ale2> but I want to test bazaar on my local pc
[15:18] <ale2> and I don't want to mix users =)
[15:18] <ale2> that's all!!
[15:19] <rozzin> I'm not sure I understand what "don't want to mix users" means.
[15:19] <ale2> sorry
[15:19] <fullermd> Neither do I.  Users are always better after you cram them in the blender...
[15:19] <ale2> I mean mix users of my personal system with users of bazaar
[15:20] <ale2> lol fullermd :D
[15:20] <rozzin> ale2: Do you mean "mix users of your personal system with users of the ssh server"?
[15:20] <ale2> of bazaar server
[15:20] <ale2> but bazaar use ssh, right?
[15:21] <fullermd> bzr doesn't really have "users" in any particularly broad sense.  It stores a committer identity for each commit, but aside from that it doesn't care about the matter one way or another.
[15:21] <rozzin> I think I understand.
[15:21] <ale2> is so difficult to me to speak in english :D
[15:22] <ale2> for me*
[15:22] <fullermd> ssh is a way (the most common, probably the best, but not the only) for people to exchange commits once they're made.
[15:22] <rozzin> ale2: Yes, bzr itself doesn't handle authentication or access-control at the server.
[15:22] <fullermd> And it requires some sort of auth/user accounts/whatnot, but strictly speaking that's outside bzr's sphere of caring.
[15:22] <fullermd> Or maybe it's a hypercube of caring.  Anyway.
[15:23] <ale2> (thumb up)
[15:23] <ale2> :D
[15:24] <ale2> anyway, is bazaar the correct answer to my cousin's question?
[15:24] <rozzin> ale2: login/auth and access control are managed by something else--a transport--like ssh (if you're using ssh as your way of communicating with the server) or a web server like apache (if you're using HTTP).
[15:24] <ale2> I think yes =D
[15:24] <fullermd> Well, it's sure as heck a better answer than "CVS".
[15:24] <ale2> but if I use http, I can't send change to server, right?
[15:25] <ale2> thanks fullermd
[15:25] <fullermd> The only people for whom CVS is a good answer carry titles like "Inquisitor"...
[15:25] <rozzin> ale2: I believe it's possible to give write access via HTTP, but I think it's more complicated to set up than just giving people ssh accounts.
[15:26] <ale2> yes, I read
[15:26] <rozzin> I'm not a really experienced webserver admin, though.
[15:26] <ale2> me too :P
[15:26] <fullermd> At one point the only way to do it was DAV, and ew.  I think you can technically do it via the HTTP smart server, but that's not much less ew.
[15:26] <rozzin> In any case, since I understand what you mean now--
[15:27] <rozzin> ale2: It's possible to use bzr on your local PC without even having a network connection.
[15:27] <fullermd> One wacky possibility that has occasionally been workable is to run the standalone smartserver in wide-open mode.
[15:28] <fullermd> That requires special circumstances to not be a horrifically bad idea, but they do occasionally come up.
[15:28] <ale2> I have a small network in my home ;-)
[15:28] <fullermd> e.g., you have to trust everybody who can possibly get network access to it, since it's...  y'know.  Wide open.
[15:29] <ale2> mh, interesting
[15:29] <rozzin> ale2: You create a local repository with "bzr init-repo", create a branch inside it with "bzr init", add files and commit them (entirely offline), and then later do a "bzr push bzr+ssh://myserver/..." of your branch to send it to a server if/when you decide that you want to publish/share your branch.
[15:29] <ale2> they works in the same agency :D
[15:29] <fullermd> But if it's on an inside protected network at a company, where only the devs can access it anyway, it's just possible it could fail to fail.
[15:30] <fullermd> But ssh is probably better all around, really.  Especially with such a small set of users needing to be setup.
[15:30] <ale2> yes rozzin, I read =)
[15:31] <rozzin> ale2: As as LeoNerd was saying, bzr doesn't care about what your local user is or whether it's the same name/UID as a remote acccount that you might have on some server somewhere;
[15:31] <rozzin> ale2: bzr just knows what name and e-mail address you told it with "bzr whoami".
[15:32] <ale2> I understand! =)
[15:32] <ale2> and it will be useful ;)
[15:33] <rozzin> ale2: Do you have bzr installed on your PC yet? :)
[15:33] <ale2> yes
[15:34] <ale2> and Bazaar Explorer installed in other windows PC
[15:34] <ale2> because in future, my cousin will use it from windows
[15:34] <ale2> (my pc is an Arch :P)
[15:34] <rozzin> Ah.
[15:35] <ale2> uff, is so complicated.. :(
[15:35] <rozzin> Is it?
[15:36] <ale2> I hate windows
[15:36] <ale2> it a complication, ehehe
[15:36] <rozzin> Ah.
[15:36] <ale2> hihi
[15:37] <ale2> and I will use ssh on windows pc to my pc
[15:37] <ale2> but I think that's simple
[15:38] <rozzin> I've never tried having Windows people using bzr Explorer.
[15:39] <fullermd> Remember that in bzr there's a conceptual separation between "working and changing and committing" on the one hand and "sharing/combining those commits with other people", and only that latter involves and ssh or http or whatnot.
[15:39] <rozzin> I introduced some Mac people to it and they all discarded it pretty quickly, in favour of just using "bzr qcommit", "bzr qlog", and "bzr qdiff" commands.
[15:39] <fullermd> So you can comfortably ignore all that stuff while you get through "learning to use bzr for actual code work" part.
[15:40] <ale2> if I'll succeed, I'll write you :)
[15:40] <rozzin> ale2: Have you also looked at TortoiseBzr yet?
[15:40] <ale2> not yet
[15:41] <rozzin> ale2: What editor or IDE do people on your cousins team use?
[15:41] <rozzin> ale2: MSVC? Eclipse?
[15:41] <ale2> they wrote in c#
[15:41] <ale2> I don't know what IDE they uses
[15:41] <ale2> I know there are a lot of text file
[15:42] <ale2> and mayble some executable
[15:42] <rozzin> ale2: You may want to find out and see if there is a plugin for their IDE.
[15:42] <ale2> but I read bzr can process executable files
[15:42] <ale2> ok, I will find
[15:43] <rozzin> Yes; bzr can deal with binary files.
[15:43] <ale2> I hope they don't use Visual Studio :D
[15:43] <fullermd> I'm not aware of any IDE plugins that are much beyond POC status.
[15:44] <rozzin> whether to store the binary files along with the source code in version control, or in another place, is a whole other question though.
[16:08] <rozzin> Mmmm: http://wiki.bazaar.canonical.com/VisualStudioIntegration