[05:20] Hi. [05:21] Someone on the emacs-dev said he can never find anyone helpful here. I'm here to be helpful. [05:22] 24 hours a day? [05:23] Maybe for some sense of "helpful".... [05:23] people are usually good about helping here [05:23] they have to ask first =P [05:24] the mail said something about half-day response times being typical ... [05:24] I guess I can helpfully `be there and listen' while I'm asleep. [05:25] ive noticed that a lot of people here are in the european/area/timezones [05:25] so if its 10 pm like it is for me they might not answer =P [05:26] Oh, good--I'm US/Eastern, 5 hours behind them; so I can actually provide useful coverage :p [05:26] =) [05:26] 00:30, here. [14:02] Hi! [14:03] ale2: Hi. [14:05] =) [14:05] Can you help me with a small question? [14:05] sorry for my poor english [14:07] Ask, don't ask to ask [14:07] =) [14:08] I have a question about user list in bazaar [14:08] is it the same of server system? [14:09] or there is a way to separate users list of bazaar and users of system' server? [14:09] I use bazaar over ssh [14:09] bzr has no concept of user permissions [14:09] he use ssh, right? [14:10] Anyone with access to the files can use it [14:10] if I would like to add a user to bazaar, for example, I must add to my system [14:10] with adduser [14:10] Maybe.. depends how you want to run it [14:11] I don't want to mix system's users with bazaar's users [14:12] is possible? [14:12] Then don [14:12] Then don'r [14:12] ok, I understood well [14:12] ale2: Are you coming from CVS? [14:13] no, I never use a DRC before [14:13] ale2: What have you used? [14:13] none, still now [14:13] I'm looking for a system review [14:13] bzr itself doesn't care who owns the files... author names are already stored and set by whoever committed it [14:14] I saw cvs, git, bazaar [14:14] and I'm reading about all of them [14:14] ale2: You have never used *any* version control system? [14:14] rozzin: such people do exist ;) [14:14] not until now :D [14:14] OK. [14:15] you scared me :P [14:16] my cousin asked to me to find a way to track the changes of his project [14:16] he has a very small software house [14:16] and I will help him [14:16] Well, it's just interesting--usually questions like that come from people who are already accustomed to using some other tool. [14:16] I have to give up? [14:16] Gaaahh [14:17] ale2: are you listening to me at all? [14:17] yes LeoNerd [14:17] Then what on earth leads you to that idea? [14:17] You want multiple users to be able to use bzr, without adding those users on the system level. YES THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID YOU CAN DO [14:18] rozzin scared me :D :D [14:18] Sorry. [14:18] i'm joke :D [14:18] bzr users are TOTALLY INDEPENDENT of system users. (for the fourth time:) bzr doesn't care who owns the files, it stores user names, it does not care about owner uid of the underlying files. [14:19] mh, I understand [14:19] Infact on a multi-user server setup you can (and probably want to) have every file owned by -the same- user, probably called 'bzr' or maybe a user per project, to which every real person who needs access has an ssh key [14:20] aah!! [14:21] I take advantage of you for only two second [14:21] tell my if I understand [14:21] I have only one users in my system calls "bzr" [14:21] 5 employees connect with the same user [14:22] but bzr can remember one of he with the nickname [14:22] Indeedy [14:23] sorry but I have a small problem with english :D :D [14:23] but I'm happy to understand :D [14:24] thank you very much!! [14:25] Normally we just have people use their own accounts, though. [14:26] Well yes; at this point you're not massively using the D part of DVCS [14:27] Or, if they don't have an account on the server, then you have them send their changesets to someone else who does have an account. [14:27] when I have a dedicated server with bzr, I use it [14:28] For example, you make a bunch of changes on your computer, then you do "bzr send -o mychanges.patch ..." and mail the project leader that patch, and the project leader merges it into the main codebase and publishes it. [14:29] clear [14:30] ale2: Is your cousin a developer, or just a manager? [14:37] both [14:37] but he use only windows [14:38] without revision history of his code [14:38] brr [14:49] ale2: How big is his dev team? Just him? [14:52] 5-6 developers [14:52] is pretty small [14:58] That's pretty big to be running with no version control. [14:59] How do they collaborate on the same code? Do they have the code on a network drive? [15:00] Or do multiple people not work on the same thing? [15:06] ale2: Why do you not want to give all of the developers ssh accounts on the bzr server? [15:15] rozzin: yes, they collaborate on the same code and they have it on a ftp server [15:16] but happened that an edit crashed all code and no-one knows who delete a part of code [15:17] and my cousin ask me if I know a method to save a things similar to changcode [15:17] for me, is the same give or not an ssh accounts to all developers [15:18] but I want to test bazaar on my local pc [15:18] and I don't want to mix users =) [15:18] that's all!! [15:19] I'm not sure I understand what "don't want to mix users" means. [15:19] sorry [15:19] Neither do I. Users are always better after you cram them in the blender... [15:19] I mean mix users of my personal system with users of bazaar [15:20] lol fullermd :D [15:20] ale2: Do you mean "mix users of your personal system with users of the ssh server"? [15:20] of bazaar server [15:20] but bazaar use ssh, right? [15:21] bzr doesn't really have "users" in any particularly broad sense. It stores a committer identity for each commit, but aside from that it doesn't care about the matter one way or another. [15:21] I think I understand. [15:21] is so difficult to me to speak in english :D [15:22] for me* [15:22] ssh is a way (the most common, probably the best, but not the only) for people to exchange commits once they're made. [15:22] ale2: Yes, bzr itself doesn't handle authentication or access-control at the server. [15:22] And it requires some sort of auth/user accounts/whatnot, but strictly speaking that's outside bzr's sphere of caring. [15:22] Or maybe it's a hypercube of caring. Anyway. [15:23] (thumb up) [15:23] :D [15:24] anyway, is bazaar the correct answer to my cousin's question? [15:24] ale2: login/auth and access control are managed by something else--a transport--like ssh (if you're using ssh as your way of communicating with the server) or a web server like apache (if you're using HTTP). [15:24] I think yes =D [15:24] Well, it's sure as heck a better answer than "CVS". [15:24] but if I use http, I can't send change to server, right? [15:25] thanks fullermd [15:25] The only people for whom CVS is a good answer carry titles like "Inquisitor"... [15:25] ale2: I believe it's possible to give write access via HTTP, but I think it's more complicated to set up than just giving people ssh accounts. [15:26] yes, I read [15:26] I'm not a really experienced webserver admin, though. [15:26] me too :P [15:26] At one point the only way to do it was DAV, and ew. I think you can technically do it via the HTTP smart server, but that's not much less ew. [15:26] In any case, since I understand what you mean now-- [15:27] ale2: It's possible to use bzr on your local PC without even having a network connection. [15:27] One wacky possibility that has occasionally been workable is to run the standalone smartserver in wide-open mode. [15:28] That requires special circumstances to not be a horrifically bad idea, but they do occasionally come up. [15:28] I have a small network in my home ;-) [15:28] e.g., you have to trust everybody who can possibly get network access to it, since it's... y'know. Wide open. [15:29] mh, interesting [15:29] ale2: You create a local repository with "bzr init-repo", create a branch inside it with "bzr init", add files and commit them (entirely offline), and then later do a "bzr push bzr+ssh://myserver/..." of your branch to send it to a server if/when you decide that you want to publish/share your branch. [15:29] they works in the same agency :D [15:29] But if it's on an inside protected network at a company, where only the devs can access it anyway, it's just possible it could fail to fail. [15:30] But ssh is probably better all around, really. Especially with such a small set of users needing to be setup. [15:30] yes rozzin, I read =) [15:31] ale2: As as LeoNerd was saying, bzr doesn't care about what your local user is or whether it's the same name/UID as a remote acccount that you might have on some server somewhere; [15:31] ale2: bzr just knows what name and e-mail address you told it with "bzr whoami". [15:32] I understand! =) [15:32] and it will be useful ;) [15:33] ale2: Do you have bzr installed on your PC yet? :) [15:33] yes [15:34] and Bazaar Explorer installed in other windows PC [15:34] because in future, my cousin will use it from windows [15:34] (my pc is an Arch :P) [15:34] Ah. [15:35] uff, is so complicated.. :( [15:35] Is it? [15:36] I hate windows [15:36] it a complication, ehehe [15:36] Ah. [15:36] hihi [15:37] and I will use ssh on windows pc to my pc [15:37] but I think that's simple [15:38] I've never tried having Windows people using bzr Explorer. [15:39] Remember that in bzr there's a conceptual separation between "working and changing and committing" on the one hand and "sharing/combining those commits with other people", and only that latter involves and ssh or http or whatnot. [15:39] I introduced some Mac people to it and they all discarded it pretty quickly, in favour of just using "bzr qcommit", "bzr qlog", and "bzr qdiff" commands. [15:39] So you can comfortably ignore all that stuff while you get through "learning to use bzr for actual code work" part. [15:40] if I'll succeed, I'll write you :) [15:40] ale2: Have you also looked at TortoiseBzr yet? [15:40] not yet [15:41] ale2: What editor or IDE do people on your cousins team use? [15:41] ale2: MSVC? Eclipse? [15:41] they wrote in c# [15:41] I don't know what IDE they uses [15:41] I know there are a lot of text file [15:42] and mayble some executable [15:42] ale2: You may want to find out and see if there is a plugin for their IDE. [15:42] but I read bzr can process executable files [15:42] ok, I will find [15:43] Yes; bzr can deal with binary files. [15:43] I hope they don't use Visual Studio :D [15:43] I'm not aware of any IDE plugins that are much beyond POC status. [15:44] whether to store the binary files along with the source code in version control, or in another place, is a whole other question though. [16:08] Mmmm: http://wiki.bazaar.canonical.com/VisualStudioIntegration