[02:26] <shaunm__> dsmythies, KI7MT: I don't personally see much value in using conditionals for the desktop env in ubuntu-help (or gnome-help for that matter). as you point out, those documents are for their respective environments, and should just always reflect that
[02:27] <shaunm__> it could be valuable if we had a common pool of pages that both teams considered to be upstream, but there's a lot of logistics in making that work
[02:27] <shaunm__> conditionals for the desktop environment are very useful for app help, however
[02:36] <KI7MT> shaunm__, Maybe I pulled the wrong repo then, I branched Lp:ubuntu-docs .. and that is where I ran into this initially. Is that not the correct repo for Ubuntu Desktop Sys Documentation ?
[02:39] <shaunm__> that's correct, I think
[02:40] <shaunm__> what I'm saying is, I think those conditionals were added to that document and to the gnome-help document early on, when conditionals were new and we were testing them and figuring out best practices
[02:41] <shaunm__> and I think we've now moved away from using them in those specific documents, for good reasons, but you're seeing lingering conditionals that were just never removed
[02:44] <KI7MT> Ok, well that will give me something work work on first then. I found it interesting to read up on though.
[03:26] <KI7MT> Question:  how is the "More Information" and "See Also" being added to the bottom of the pages, say for instance on Add a new user account, More Information links to Manage user accounts?
[03:28] <KI7MT> with respect to Ubuntu Sys Help Docs.
[05:20] <shaunm__> KI7MT: "More Information" links are guide links. you get them when the page has <link type="guide"> in its info, *OR* when another page has <link type="topic"> to the page you're looking at
[05:21] <shaunm__> "See Also" are seealso links. you get them when the page has <link type="seealso"> in its info, *OR* when another page has <link type="seealso"> to the page you're looking at
[05:22] <shaunm__> the important thing to realize here is that most types of links declared in the info element automatically go in both directions in some way or another
[05:33] <dsmythies> KI7MT: Re: conditionals: See this thread: <https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2013-September/017658.html> 4 e-mails total.
[05:36] <dsmythies> sorry, 5 e-mails total, including the one from Jeremy that the system doesn't realize is the same thread.
[05:39] <KI7MT> dsmythies, thanks. having a crack at updating online-accounts. It seems the interface has changed quite allot in 3.10.2. Is the best way to send out a proposed set of changes a bundle package via e-mail or send up a merge ppa ?proposed merge?
[05:43] <dsmythies> It is just my opinion, but I think merge proposal is best.
[05:45] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Ok, thanks. These e-mails are exactly what I ran into .. Not read all the way through yet.
[05:51] <KI7MT> shaunm__, thanks for the info on Links.  I need to play with that a bit, and see what the results are with different tags.
[15:49] <KI7MT> GM all .. quick question on Sys Docs. I see that in some .page files (files-tilde.page for ecample), legal.xml is included in the <info> section, while others it is not. When should we be adding this to our .page files?
[16:00] <dsmythies> KI7MT: Do you have an example file name that does NOT have the legal.xml line? In the end, there should be a legal link in the footer of every page, but give me some time to catch up.
[16:07] <KI7MT> dsmythies, good morning. Sure, a look at accounts-create.page .. that is the app I am working on now.
[16:19] <dsmythies> KI7MT: I do not know the answer. Before I suspect I was confusing legal.xml with the legal.html that is linked, via the .css for the html versions of stuff. The built in help doesn't have the legal link.
[16:21] <dsmythies> I suspect the legal.xml line should be in every file, but that is just a guess and should not be considered an authoritative answer.
[16:22] <KI7MT> This legal.xml covers Creative Commons .. Where as the other Legal Notice, on the applicaiton itsself..
[16:22] <KI7MT> Is the wording for Ubuntu and Canonical's Legal Notice stuff.
[16:24] <KI7MT> I don't see a reason why we would NOT want Creative Commons each file.
[16:25] <dsmythies> legal.html is not part of ubuntu-docs. It is common for both the serverguide and ubuntu-docs and all releases and is one of about 5 glue files that pull it all together on help.ubuntu.com. see the very last few lines of the spreadsheet.
[16:27] <KI7MT> It's interesting, that when I pull up the Legal Notice, using the link on Online Accounts App. The Heading under About is "License" and using the legal.xml the heading is Creative Commons,.
[16:29] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Yes I saw the files on the Spreadsheet. Im now wondering if we should edit legal.xml to match the working displayed under License from legal.html
[16:32] <KI7MT> legal.html displays as; License: Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 (with not link) and legal.xml displays as; Creative Commons: This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License (with the link).
[16:33] <KI7MT> I know this is splitting hair's, but it jsut looks different. Says the same thing though.
[16:44] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Where is the source file located for legal.html ?
[16:47] <KI7MT> I found it: /usr/share/help/C/web-credentials
[16:57] <dsmythies> Legal.html is 1 of about 5 files where the master file is in the launchpad branch for help.ubtuntu.com. The rest of the files in that branch are NOT master files, but rather slave files with the master files in the launchpad branches that we are working on now.
[16:57] <dsmythies> see: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/help.ubuntu.com/view/head:/index.html
[16:59] <dsmythies> Sorry, see: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/help.ubuntu.com/view/head:/legal.html
[16:59] <KI7MT> dsmythies, I fibured it out, in the .page.stubs pages it is a <license> tag, not an <include href .. .. .  thus, one pages renders with just text, and legal.xml renders with the href.
[16:59] <KI7MT> *figured.
[17:02] <KI7MT> So if we want the Link version, we need to include legal.xml, and if we want just the workding, no link, Legal Commons ShareAlike 3.0  .. we add the <license> tag.
[17:06] <KI7MT> So, question becomes, do we want the href link in the About section to read as legal.xml lays out, or simply add: <license> Creative Commons ShareAlike 3.0</license>  tag.
[17:08] <KI7MT> If you open open up the Online Accounts APP, and click the the Legal Notice Link on the GUI, you can see the <license> tag version.
[17:18] <dsmythies> KI7MT: I don't know. Perhaps someone else will chime in with an opinion.
[17:20] <KI7MT> dsmythies, I think, If the final verdict is we want the link included, we need to add some CSS to tidy it up a bit. I can have a play with that.
[17:36] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Simple work-around: <license> <link href .. Creative Commons .. .. ..</link></licesne> .. That puts it under About: License, and adds the CC link.
[17:37] <KI7MT> And looks nice alongside Written By - Edited By.
[17:48] <KI7MT> dsmythies, I should probably send this idea to the mailing list, but legal.xml as the name probably not the best choice. Maybe copywrite.xml or license.xml  or something, as this merely referrs to the copywrite of the written material.
[18:31] <KI7MT> Question. Regarding yelp-build & images/icon locations:  If we use a system Icons from /usr/share/icons .. .. should we add those icons to /ubuntu-docs/html/img ?   ... when I use that ref location, I'm getting file-not-found errors on the html page, but using the system location /usr/share .. .. all is well.
[18:44] <dsmythies> KI7MT: No. There are bug reports, on this issue. They are either fixed and the new yelp-build hasn't made its way to Ubuntu yet, or the fix is still pending. See the upstream links (4 total, I think) listed in these IRC logs in the last 2 or 3 days.
[18:47] <KI7MT> dsmythies, ok, I'll go look at the bugs, but for future reference, is the proper location ./ubuntu-docs/html/icons  .. ?
[18:48] <KI7MT> sorry ./ubuntu-docs/html/img  .. no icons
[19:00] <dsmythies> KI7MT: Actually, I think you would add an icon to ./ubuntu-docs/ubuntu-help/C/figures. And note that doing so would requre an edit to ./ubuntu-docs/ubuntu-help/Makefile.am
[19:00] <dsmythies> Ki7MT: see http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/trusty/revision/240
[19:02] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Ahh ok .. Im definately not a Makefile guru, but maybe it's time to get into that as well.
[19:03] <KI7MT> Or, simply don't use an Icon :-0
[19:06] <dsmythies> KI7MT: and http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/trusty/revision/316
[19:06] <dsmythies> KI7MT: Yes, avoid new icons.
[19:12] <KI7MT> dsmythies, actually, that Makefile is not so bad :-) .. a couple of other projects I work on for docs, the Makefiles are well, they make my head spin. This one is pretty straight forward.
[19:16] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Actually, that was really good info, becasue if we wanted to propose a new series help files, or change some names of existing ones, it's good to know we need to update the Makefile as well with a proposed merg.
[19:17] <KI7MT> dsmythies, the file that does make my head hurt though, is the ubuntu-help.pot file .. that thing is a beast ! :-)
[19:18] <KI7MT> surely that file is generated not manually coded right ?
[19:28] <dsmythies> KI7MT: Makefile.am: Yes trivial. Others, Yes complicated.
[19:30] <dsmythies> KI7MT: .pot file: Do not look at it. There is no need. Yes, it is a compiled file and is related to translations. Then why is it there, isn't it like folding downstream work back into upstream work? Yes, I find the workflow a little odd in this respect.
[19:32] <dsmythies> the .pot file file be updated just at documentation string freeze, in preparation for the translators to start.
[19:32] <KI7MT> dsmythies, I know very little about .pot files, that stuff is like black-magic to me.
[19:50] <KI7MT> dsmythies, do we have a list anywhere of page:  type="abc" style="xyz"   ?
[19:54] <KI7MT> dsmythies, found you bugs on bugs.gnome.org for yelp-tools
[19:54] <KI7MT> *your
[19:56] <dsmythies> KI7MT: re list: Not that I am aware of. Note: I have never thought about that line at all.
[19:56] <dsmythies> KI7MT: I think I misdirected you to the bug reports. A potential new icon is a different story, which I think we covered now.
[19:57] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Im new at this type of documentation , and Mallard, so I'm just going through each element and trying to understand how it works and the proper usage.
[19:58] <KI7MT> dsmythies, re, icons, yes, thing I ahve that one under control.
[19:58] <KI7MT> *think
[20:00] <dsmythies> KI7MT: I'm fairly new to mallard myself. I came from the serverguide which is docbook, and still do more work there than on ubuntu-docs.
[20:03] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Yeah, I was working the ubuntu-maual for a while, trying to get my head around LaTeX  .. then, yes, DocBook, which I need to work allot more on, and now Mallard .. I wish all the docs would go to one setup woudl make like allot easier.
[20:03] <KI7MT> *make life
[20:04] <KI7MT> dsmythies, do you use the bughelper cli tools?
[20:29] <KI7MT> Found another block that's baffling me, <desc> block. Some pages simple have a one line plain test description, others are putting xref's to related pages.
[20:29] <KI7MT> *simply have
[21:07] <dsmythies> KI7MT: bughelper tools: No, never heard of them.
[21:16] <KI7MT> dsmythies, link from ubuntu bug squat launchpad: https://launchpad.net/bughelper-data
[21:20] <dsmythies> KI7MT: <desc>: I do not understand what is baffling you. Sometimes it is desired to have a link in the text in the <desc> block, somtimes not. Look at the next level up from the actual .page file...
[21:21] <dsmythies> for example for tips.page look at index.page ...
[21:21] <dsmythies> and you will see the <desc> block there, with the link.
[21:22] <dsmythies> Note: when I said "look", I meant in the unity help. i.e. the finished prodcut.
[21:25] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Ahh ok, that's makes sense.  I was confused over where the block should reside in the .page file. Some have been inside of <info> block and others outside.
[21:44] <KI7MT> dsmythies, well had my first 14.04 crash .. Nautilus went nutty bonkers upon Browse then open with Gedit :-)
[22:05] <dsmythies> KI7MT: Two days ago my 14.04 dekstop VM, hosted on a 12.04 server, just wouldn't work at all. Then yesterday, there was a new kernel and now it works, more or less. I do have grief with my VM's sometimes.
[22:07] <KI7MT> dsmythies, I installed form an ISO, about ohh a week or so ago. That's the first real issue I've had. I do updates constantly though.
[22:09] <KI7MT> dsmythies, my current Kernel is 3.13.0.1 Generic, x86_64
[22:09] <KI7MT> I did see a Gnome package, can't recall whihc now, that had a pkgversion of 0.0.0 :-)
[22:10] <dsmythies> KI7MT: mine also: Linux doug-desktop 3.13.0-1-generic #16-Ubuntu SMP Tue Jan 7 19:44:06 UTC 2014 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
[22:12] <KI7MT> dsmythies, So do you run a headless server with Desk VM ?
[22:15] <dsmythies> KI7MT: Mostly yes. I do sometimes have a cosnole attached, sometimes not. I also run 32 bit 14.04 server VM, mainly so that I can compile the kernel for my i386 server minimum requirements test computer, as it is not able to compile the kernel. I also have a 64 bit 14.04 VM
[22:17] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Toward the final release, I want to set that up as well, headless 14.04 server and run Desktop VM's from it.
[22:20] <dsmythies> I resisted getting into VM for a very long time, but now do not know how to live without them. That being said, there is some often odd stuff with my VNC connections. When things break, it seems that emormous amounts of time is wasted trying to figure it out.
[22:21] <KI7MT> yes, understand. I do allot of ISO install and desktop app testing, VM is the only way to go.
[22:22] <KI7MT> I'd like to learn more about LXC and the could stuff, just dont have enough HW for it.
[22:22] <KI7MT> *cloud
[22:47] <KI7MT> dsmythies, well .. 4 files down, another 4 to go :-)