KI7MTgodbyk, you around for a question or two ?18:52
godbykKI7MT: I'm here now.22:27
KI7MTgodbyk, I got what I needed I think, talked with knome .. was having trouble with local repos and working on multiple fixes as things. Seems the only way I can do that is to have separate branches in a none shared local repo.22:31
godbykKI7MT: Ah, okay. Yeah, that's the only way I've found to deal with it, too.22:32
godbyk(I often wish we used git instead of bzr for that reason. But perhaps I'm just missing an obvious feature of bzr that would help.)22:33
KI7MTYeah, I created a bit of a mess with ubuntu-docs .. sent up on MP .. was merged, then did a second MP, then an unrelated bux fix, used > bundle and well made a mess .. lol ..22:33
godbykHeh.. yeah, I've been there. :)22:34
godbykI end up checking out a new branch for each MP and each bug fix and dealing with them one by one.22:34
godbykOtherwise I'm not sure how to keep it all straight.22:34
KI7MTI wouldn't be an issue if the repo wasn't Distributed + gatekeeper, but I can see why they want it controlled.22:34
* godbyk should learn how to use bzr better.22:34
godbykFor the manual, anyone on the team can directly commit to our repository. We don't bother with MPs generally.22:35
godbykSo far it hasn't been much of a problem.22:35
KI7MTIm now using a branch  .. then cp -R to say ubuntu-docs-lp12345  and work it that way.22:35
godbykWe'll occasionally have someone that commits something that breaks the build.22:35
godbykBut it's usually a quick and simple fix.22:36
godbykThat's what I end up doing, too.22:36
KI7MTI had to pull my second MP and adn the fix into their repsective repos, but think it's all sorted. The docs say to setup a shared repo .. but that's leads to torubles.22:37
KI7MTAllot of these fixes are a line or two of text, so can do several fixes per day.22:38
KI7MTHows progress on the 14.04 manual going? saw some email traffic on translations.22:39
godbykIn the next couple weeks I'm going to start putting out calls for volunteers again.22:40
godbykWe usually don't begin writing too early as we have to wait for things to actually land in Ubuntu before we can document them.22:41
KI7MTIs there a task list of to do's somwhere?22:41
godbykNot really. We usually assign authors and editors to particular chapters/sections of the manual.22:41
godbykAfter they're finished, we then proofread the entire manual.22:42
KI7MTHave you looked at an applicaiton called asciidoc ?22:42
godbykI think I've seen that one before.22:44
godbykI've looked at pandoc, too.22:44
KI7MTIt has a LaTex backend: http://www.methods.co.nz/asciidoc/#X1   docbook well supported as is Mallard.22:44
godbykMost of the convert-to-LaTeX apps I've seen do a fair job, but not really as good as we can do by just using LaTeX directly.22:45
godbykThere's a slight learning curve when people start working on the manual, but I don't think it's too bad these days.22:46
KI7MTFor me it's kinda frustraighting . all the docs seem to use different tools. Kinda rough for new folks to come in and help out .. I think the authors and editors approach is pretty good though.22:46
godbykThe LaTeX syntax we use is fairly limited at the moment, so you don't have to learn too much.22:46
godbykYeah that is a problem sometimes.22:46
godbykI don't mind having to learn a new markup language and tools as long as they're well-documented.22:47
godbykAnd the docs project isn't documented nearly as well as I think it should be.22:47
godbykI'm hoping we can continue to work on that going forward.22:47
KI7MTThats just it, relevant examples is hard to find, then how that markup is to used used on a project, or lack of templates22:47
KI7MTI think ubuntu-manual is pretty good, the styles guide explains allot.22:48
godbykFor the manual project we went to quite a bit of effort to make it easy for people to work on our project.22:49
KI7MTSo what's the key freeze point for the manual, Feature Freeze?22:49
godbykWell, the final deadline is to publish the manual the same day that Ubuntu 14.04 is released.22:50
godbykWe try to have all the editing done at the beginning of that week (so I have a couple days to do any last-minute tidying up).22:51
KI7MTYou have a definitive list of topics as well yes?22:51
godbykAnd going back from there we try to give the editors and authors as much time as we can.22:51
godbykYeah, kind of.22:51
godbykWe've been sticking with the current chapter/section outline, but we can change that if need be.22:51
godbykIf we think we need to add another topic or remove one or shuffle things about, etc.22:51
godbykNothing is really set in stone, but it serves as a guideline.22:52
KI7MTI find looking through the Ubuntu-QA app testing list a good template regarding docu some apps have their own help, some done, wehre does one draw the line in the sand so to speak :-)mentation needs, but22:53
KI7MT*some dont .. ..22:53
godbykYeah, I don't know how that works.22:53
godbykI think some app developers write their own documentation and others don't.22:54
KI7MTthat's odd. mentaton need, but got added.. no idea how that happened ..lol22:54
godbykFor the Ubuntu system (desktop) docs, we inherit the docs from GNOME and then tweak that documentation to account for differences between Unity and GNOME.22:54
godbyk(The differences are becoming more and more pronounced it seems.)22:54
KI7MTFrom a user stand point, where do they go fist .. app help, system help, external docs .. it's all kinda crazy.22:55
godbykYeah, it is.22:55
godbykAnd I don't know what users *actually* do... I'd love to find out, though.22:55
godbykI don't know if anyone reads the system documentation on their desktop (e.g., open the Dash and run the Help program).22:55
KI7MTYeah, that's would be an interesting set of data for sure.22:55
godbykI don't know if they visit help.ubuntu.com..22:55
godbykOr if they visit wiki.ubuntu.com...22:55
godbykor if they just ask Google and go where it leads.22:56
godbykHopefully some of them read the Ubuntu Manual, too. ;-)22:56
KI7MTIm actually confused on that one myself .. in IRC  I try to send people to help.ubuntu.com.. was tols the wiki is more or less for developers .. then there's askubuntu.com .. LOL ..22:56
godbykYeah, I forgot about askubuntu.com.22:57
godbykMyself, I tend to just Google things.22:57
KI7MTI send folsk that say, "Im new to Linux, where to I start", or I need some general how too for ubuntu etc to the ubuntu-manual.22:57
KI7MTIf they ask for a specific topic .. how to I do x,y,z .. then usually help.ubuntu.com .. unless I can't find an up to date one, wheich that needs allot of work too.22:58
godbykI think that's a good way to go.22:59
godbykFor the manual, we write it when a novice Ubuntu user in mind.22:59
godbykIt's geared toward new Ubuntu users.22:59
KI7MTmy typing is horrible today .. Im on an HP Mini right now, fingers bigger than the keys .. lol ..22:59
godbykGah, I hate small keyboards!22:59
KI7MTditto ..23:00
KI7MTOr laptops with a touch pad right where it should NOT be .. lol .. like 99% of them are.23:00
godbykYes! My laptop has a touchpad that my wrist keeps hitting and so the cursor moves and I start typing elsewhere in the document.23:01
KI7MTis there a repo specifically for gnome-docs ? I keep seeing allot of reference to that on the ubuntu-docs stuff.23:01
godbykYeah, they have a git repository.  One sec and I'll dig up the link.23:02
KI7MTOn the ubuntu-docs task list, says we need to check ubuntu-docs against gnome-docs ..23:02
KI7MTlol .. and of course, it's Git and bugzilla :-)23:03
godbykYeah. We have to diff the GNOME docs (keeping in mind that Ubuntu may be using an older version of GNOME than the latest and also that the GNOME docs themselves may be out of date for that version) and the Ubuntu docs.23:04
godbykThen update the Ubuntu docs accordingly.23:04
KI7MTv.s. bzr and launchpad23:04
godbykBut it's not a process we can automate. We have to have humans looking at the diffs and deciding what to keep and what not to.23:04
KI7MTThat explains why Im seeing allot of gnome .page file things ..23:04
KI7MTauthors and such23:05
KI7MTthey have a nice styles guide also.23:05
KI7MTThat's what we need for ubuntu-docs Help23:06
KI7MTThey gnome-docs moved over to Mallard didnt' they?23:06
godbykYeah, the gnome-docs use Mallard. And that's why ubuntu-docs switched to Mallard, too.23:07
KI7MTfrom a first glance perspective, seems a fare bit easier than DocBook23:07
godbykYeah, there are a lot fewer tags.23:08
godbykMallard was also designed specifically for this type of documentation.23:08
godbykSo it's not designed to produce books or any random document type you can think of.23:08
godbykIt's specifically for documentation.23:08
KI7MTIt looks nice, we jst need to develop a more focused Styles guide foe Help Docs.23:08
KI7MTand get rid of all the DocBook stuff .. except for server docs, but then again, why not move them over to mallard too.23:09
godbykI'd like to see nice documentation for writing Ubuntu system docs (desktop) using Mallard, too. Something like the  Ubuntu Manual style guide would be great.23:10
KI7MTYes, it's definately needed. The gnome guys have a pretty good handle on this.23:11
KI7MTLike, they have a whole page on License usage.23:12
KI7MTThey have their own IRC also .. :-)23:13
KI7MTweb-based though, not a fan of that.23:13
godbykYou can probably still connect to it through an IRC client.23:15
godbykA lot of people just use web clients, though.23:15
KI7MTI was gonna go look .. probably a different server.23:15
KI7MTWeb-Client kinda hard to do on a server :-) .. well a non DE server at lease .. IRSSI be my buddy .. lol23:15
godbykI've thought about switching to irssi but haven't taken the plunge yet. I'm still using xchat.23:18
KI7MTdont know if you seen this, pretty nice: https://developer.gnome.org/gdp-style-guide/stable/23:18
godbykYeah. And the Ubuntu docs style guide reference that GNOME docs style guide.23:18
KI7MTI use both .. server irssi .. DE xchat .. irssi is realyl powerful, but has a learnign curve.23:18
godbykOne of the things I'd like to do for Ubuntu it work with the docs teams and the Ubuntu designers/developers to come up with a list of canonical names and spellings (and capitalizations) of all the various UI elements so we can ensure consistency.23:19
godbykRight now those things are somewhat inconsistent.23:19
KI7MTwell .. maybe that's what we need to do if Unity is the way of the future ..23:19
KI7MTI agree .. and I think the docs teams whould all work form the same styles guide .. and adjsut contest based on platform.23:20
KI7MT*docs teams should .. ..23:21
KI7MTcontest.. lol .. adjust content.23:21
KI7MTLike the use of Dash .. if it's in Dash .. point users to go through Dash to get to it .. not, click this, click that.23:21
KI7MTand for DE .. terminal should be avoided .. I like the terminal .. I can't work without it, but, Unity uses Dash, not the term.23:22
KI7MTAnd workflows .. that would be great, like: https://wiki.gnome.org/DocumentationProject/StatusTracking23:24
KI7MTI asked about status tags .. and ubuntu-docs Help .. they not being used.23:25
godbykYeah, I was a bit wary about the terminal-based instructions for disabling the guest account for that reason.23:26
KI7MTAnd this Shaun McCance is like gnome docs super man, his name is everywhere.23:26
godbykBut since I'm unaware of a GUI way of doing it, I let it go.23:26
godbykYeah, Shaun is the guy who wrote/designed/invented Mallard, too.23:27
KI7MT:-) that explains why he's all over the mallard questions I had :-)23:30
KI7MTre Guest .. I've seen that done allot in the field / real world use. The server guys are terminal guru's .. README's are wthe way of life there.23:34
KI7MTgnome uses Git too :-)23:36

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!