[00:03] <dsmythies> KI7MT: Those icons are auto pulled by the build process (for the html), and ultimatley end up in the same directory as the html. They are called by the .css file. Otherwise the help system knows where to find them...
[00:04] <KI7MT> dsmythies, yes I saw that, Im not gonna mess with them, just Important Icon should be different than the Info Icon "i"
[00:04] <dsmythies> KI7MT: currently there appears to be regular "notes" exceed "important" notes by a factor of 5. (Roughly 51 normal and 10 important, on a lsightly out of date count.)
[00:05] <dsmythies> Ki7MT: the info icon is a different story.
[00:07] <KI7MT> dsmythies, I think that's a product of using <note style="tip"> the wrong way .. e,g, not using  <note style="important"> enough
[00:08] <dsmythies> KI7MT: Yes. I was referring to regular note Vs. important note.
[00:08] <KI7MT> Yeah, we need Wiki guidance on that too.
[00:10] <KI7MT> dsmythies, there's like what, 4 regularly use item, Tip/Info .. Caution, Warning, Important .. we need use cases and properly setup CSS
[00:11] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Also, while I am here, what should I do about the "personal copyright" pages, leve them be or add the legal.xml to them.
[00:13] <dsmythies> KI7MT: I am only aware of 4: Tip Info Warning and Important. I am not aware of Caution. The .css is a compiled file, and in this regard is O.K. (as far as I know).
[00:14] <dsmythies> KI7MT: Copyright: I am not following. Didn't we decide to wait a bit for the doc list e-mail thread.?
[00:15] <KI7MT> Item #4 on the email I sent out.
[00:16] <dsmythies> KI7MT: Yes, but we need to wait at least enough time for people that are currently asleep to have an opportunity to chime in.
[00:17] <KI7MT> Ok so I'll just them inplace then, and revert the ones I added <license> tags too v.s. legal.xml
[00:44] <dsmythies> KI7MT: Re: note styles. Your were looking at things like <note style="important">. I was just looking at the .png files and assuming the mapping was what was logical and would make sense...
[00:44] <dsmythies> KI7MT: However the mapping is illogical, and in my mind, wrong...
[00:45] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Write a Bug so we cna fix it.
[00:45] <KI7MT> *can
[00:46] <KI7MT> dsmythies, the .png files don't really mean anything with the code behind it to render them properly.
[00:46] <dsmythies> note style tip maps to the blue circle with the "i" (which I guess you knew, but I didn't)
[00:46] <KI7MT> I know
[00:47] <dsmythies> note style info maps to the little yellow rectangle with the pin in it.
[00:47] <dsmythies> important to the satr (which is right)
[00:47] <dsmythies> important to the star (which is right)
[00:47] <KI7MT> dsmythies, and that particular Icon, is, by system default standards, an "Info" icon.
[00:48] <dsmythies> wanring to the warning thingy (which is right)
[00:48] <dsmythies> which "particular Icon"?
[00:48] <KI7MT> "i"
[00:48] <KI7MT> style="tip"
[00:49] <KI7MT> that icon is system Info Icon
[00:49] <KI7MT> so I guess "tip" and "info" be seen as same thing.
[00:50] <dsmythies> O.K. I'm confused. Do you agree there is a mapping error or no?
[00:50] <KI7MT> what file you looking at?
[00:51] <knome> fwiw, in the xubuntu documentation, note/tip are both mapped to (i), caution/important to (!)
[00:52] <dsmythies> I grepped for "<note" and then for each hit, I opened the file with the help system to observe.
[00:52] <dsmythies> knome: thanks.
[00:53] <knome> we still keep on using them separately, since it's possible we want to change the icon for either later
[00:53] <knome> not likely, but want to make sure it's possible without headache and tears
[00:53] <KI7MT> dsmythies, what file you looking at for the mapping?
[00:57] <dsmythies> KI7MT: I was just looking at source and final display. The actual mapping file will be buried somewhere, probably in yelp-tools. I didn't even start to look into that yet.
[00:59] <dsmythies> knome: thanks again.
[01:01] <KI7MT> Anyway, I need to finish the bug .. YELP_HELP_INIT .. not found that yet ..  want to look at that.
[01:35] <KI7MT> dsmythies, I'm about to send up the mods for lp:1268775
[02:18] <KI7MT> dsmythies, How did you determine which server pkg's were a priority for this cycle?
[02:37] <KI7MT> where everyone .. way too quiet in here :-)
[03:06] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Just curious, why is the 10.04 Server guide still up and running online? would it not make sense to re-direct that to 12.04 Server ? Allot of the server bugs are against 10.04 ..
[04:20] <dsmythies> KI7MT: Peter Matulis determined the priorities for the server guide for this cycle. Typically, the ones that nobody got to for awhile are highlighted. You can make other lines higlighted priorities, if you want. I did for 11.1 when we realized that config files now need to have a .conf extention, for example.
[04:21] <KI7MT> dsmythies, ok .. sounds good Looks like we are getting some traction on the coyright issue, getting some feedback now.
[04:21] <dsmythies> KI7MT: 10.04 is an LTS release, and has not reached EOL yet.
[04:21] <KI7MT> Oh.. yeah, on the server hasn't EOL yet, DE has.
[04:21] <dsmythies> KI7MT: serverguide is switching to LTS only as of 14.04
[04:22] <dsmythies> KI7MT: 13.04 is EOL at end Jan. On or about Feb 1st, it will be deleted from help.ubuntu.com
[04:23] <KI7MT> dsm found a Bug in the HTML Makefile for .. ui:expand  .. I'll write it up and fix it, affets 3 or 4 files, and will also send a note to ubuntu-docs
[04:23] <KI7MT> dsmythies, that was fer you
[04:23] <dsmythies> KI7MT: for serverguide I never backport. Peter tries to.
[04:24] <KI7MT> dsmythies, servers, in my opinion, should not be cutting edge, the should be industrial stable :-)
[04:24] <dsmythies> hecne why we are going to lts only serverguide
[04:25] <dsmythies> the other reason is that we simply can not maintain the old versions that are still active.
[04:25] <KI7MT> dsmythies, that + you dont have snough resoureces to write it up every six mos.
[04:25] <KI7MT> *enough
[04:26] <dsmythies> KI7MT: bug in Makefile: Hey great it has been figured out.
[04:26] <KI7MT> No, not all fo them fixed yet, jsut the Deprecated ui:expand URL .. still workign on the other three errors.
[04:27] <dsmythies> Sorry, that is what I meant.
[04:27] <KI7MT> :-) it's all good. one down, three to go :-0
[04:28] <KI7MT> Im getting Unmatched block error, neams an open block somewhere, that's not gonna be easy to fix.
[04:28] <KI7MT> this is not on my code, jsut HTML build in general.
[04:29] <dsmythies> I can not catch up just now, it'll have to be tomorrow sometimes.
[04:30] <KI7MT> dsmythies, you have more MP's to review.
[04:30] <dsmythies> KI7MT: I saw, but they have to wait also, unless another does them.
[04:31] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Where are all the commiters ?
[04:32] <dsmythies> KI7MT: "little girl" did say she would be absent for chunks of time. I guess this is one of those times. When she is here things really happen.
[04:33] <KI7MT> dsmythies, yeah, cuz seems you got alloy going on.
[04:33] <KI7MT> *allot
[04:34] <dsmythies> KI7MT: I am absent for chunks of time on occasion also.
[04:34] <dsmythies> KI7MT: I missed the entire 12.04 cycle.
[04:35] <dsmythies> KI7MT: I meant tosay 12.10 cycle
[04:35] <KI7MT> well when I get up to speed, I can help out, been doing this stuff for a long time, just not with thos Distributed + Gatekeeper setup.
[04:40] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Generally, I dont spend allot of energy on the intermediate releases. LTS to LTS is my main thing.
[04:45] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Im wonderign whey nobody else is moaning about the ui:depricated errors .. I checked on 3 branch pulls, fails on all three.
[06:22] <godbyk> KI7MT: I merged your UI fixes. I think that the experimental UI spec URI used to be valid but no longer is. So it may not have yelled at us last cycle.
[06:23] <KI7MT> godbyk, Yes, I suspect so, somwhere along the line, he moved it to an active url .. was easy fix
[06:24] <godbyk> I also looked at Doug's bug about copying files from the wrong location. It seems a bit more involved, though, and I haven't stumbled across the right answer yet.
[06:24] <godbyk> I'm slowly working through my inbox. :-)
[06:25] <KI7MT> godbyk, But I'm stumped on the Makefile cp issue . Im not a sed guru unfortunately.
[06:26] <KI7MT> godbyk, There is also a file or 2 that have open section tags some  where  .. that's a needle ins a stack of needles to find :-)
[06:27] <godbyk> I understand the sed command.. but the sed command itself doesn't try to copy anything.
[06:28] <godbyk> The copying happens within the yelp-build shell script.
[06:28] <godbyk> And that shell script isn't documented very well.
[06:28] <KI7MT> where is the script ?
[06:28] <godbyk> It involves taking each .page file and running a huge xslt script against it to extract the files it wants to copy and then tries to copy them.
[06:28] <godbyk> Run 'which yelp-build' to find it. :)
[06:29] <KI7MT> I know where that is, and the xsl .. and yes, there's allot to that file.
[06:30] <godbyk> The failed cp commands happen on line 471 of the yelp-build script.
[06:31] <godbyk> Not all the copies fail.. most of them work fine. Just the files that GNOME uses but we don't.. those are the ones that fail.
[06:32] <KI7MT> Im looking at yelp-build .. how did you find out it was line 471 failing?
[06:33] <godbyk> Well, I searched for the cp commands in that file and picked the one that made the most sense..
[06:33] <godbyk> Then I added an echo line above it to check my suspicions.
[06:34] <KI7MT> ahh ok
[06:36] <KI7MT> I can do a good bit of bash, but that script is a bit beyond my ability  ..
[06:37] <godbyk> The bash aspects of that script aren't too bad.
[06:37] <godbyk> The problem is the huge xslt stuff they've just pasted in the middle everywhere.
[06:42] <KI7MT> yeah, there's a good bit of that in there too .. it's hard to keep track of all this xsl stuff.
[07:01] <KI7MT> godbyk, While youe here, what is the code for assigning a bug to wiki instead of ubundu-docs ?
[07:03] <godbyk> KI7MT: As far as I know, the wiki stuff falls under the ubuntu-docs project as well.
[07:04] <godbyk> (Though I sometimes wish there were a separate project for that.)
[07:05] <KI7MT> Yeah, there's loads of bugs for the wiki's .. I wsa tols the other day, can't remember by whom, no to write bugs for the wiki's and help.ubuntu.com
[07:05] <KI7MT> *was told
[07:05] <godbyk> In my mind, it's often silly to file a bug report against the wiki when you could just fix it directly.
[07:05] <godbyk> But not everyone reading the wiki has the knowledge to fix the bugs.
[07:06] <godbyk> Oftentimes it's someone trying to use the wiki to solve a problem or learn how to do something. When things don't work out well, or the instructions lead them astray, their only real recourse is to file a bug and hope someone fixes it.
[07:06] <KI7MT> Yes, and some folks, like me, were taught to work tasks form bugs reports :-)
[07:08] <KI7MT> godbyk, Im very interested in making sure help.ubuntu.com is correct, as that's my got site for Ubuntu Support IRC .. I send folks to pages there allot, and it annoys me to send them to a non-ubuntu site for a ubuntu issue.
[07:08] <KI7MT> *go too.
[07:08] <godbyk> What would be nice is if people interested in or working on particular projects would monitor the wiki pages referencing those projects and keep them up to date and accurate.
[07:09] <godbyk> I agree. I think that lousy documentation leads to a negative user experience and we want to avoid those whenever possible.
[07:09] <KI7MT> godbyk, There's too many go too places, we have Wiki, Help, Ask, >. which is the master .. to many sites to watch. not enough automation.
[07:10] <dsmythies> The reason you typically should not file a bug against help.ubuntuc.com is because that is not where the master files are. The master files are in serverguide and desktop help projects
[07:10] <godbyk> dsmythies: I assumed he was talking about filing bugs against the wiki at h.u.c, not against the system docs or server guide.
[07:11] <dsmythies> Peter M. has been setting bugs against wiki to INVALID. I do not think that is correct action.
[07:11] <KI7MT> Oh and I forgot, then there's the Forums, which, is a great place for info, lots of realyl smart folsk in there writing how-too's
[07:11] <dsmythies> godbyk: Oh.
[07:11] <godbyk> KI7MT: That's true and I can understand how that could cause confusion—especially when not all of the docs are up to date. But I think that different forms of documentation have different uses, all of which are valid.
[07:12] <KI7MT> Yes, I was .. there's bugs filed again wiki issues, then assigned to ubuntu-docs ..
[07:12] <KI7MT> godbyk, indeed, it's jsut hard to keep them all in sync, and ot kno where to send folks as the go too place.
[07:13] <godbyk> dsmythies: I think that ubuntu-docs bugs should be about bugs in the *documentation*. Unfortunately, it seems to be a catchall for 'something is wrong and I don't know who to complain to'.
[07:13] <KI7MT> heck even ubutto has bad data .. lol ..
[07:13] <dsmythies> Oh my, e-mail in box has lots of stuff...
[07:13] <dsmythies> godbyk: Agreed.
[07:14] <KI7MT> godbyk, I agredd . ubuntu-docs ==> Desktop Help Bugs .. wiki bugs, against the wiki
[07:14] <godbyk> dsmythies: Tell me about it! :-)  You guys and your bug reports and merge proposals have filled mine up the past week. I'm trying to get through the backlog now. :)
[07:15] <KI7MT> AND .. we need a way to filter against the release, not being funny, but an issue in 13.04 does interest me, it's EOL
[07:15] <dsmythies> godbyk: fair enough. Aren't you two times zone ahead of me? I.E. isn't it late for you?
[07:15] <KI7MT> adn 13.10 is EOL in what July I think ?
[07:15] <dsmythies> Typically, most bugs carry forward. Of course some not.
[07:17] <KI7MT> dsmythies, godbyk is looking at that cp stat error .. I could not figure it out. even asked in SED gnome and gnome-docs .. nil everywehre.
[07:17] <godbyk> dsmythies: I'm in US/Central.. it's 1:17 a.m. here.
[07:17]  * godbyk is a night owl.
[07:18] <dsmythies> There are two type of copy errors. I saw your discussion above.
[07:18] <godbyk> KI7MT: Well, we're still interested in old bugs that haven't been fixed yet and still exist in 14.04.
[07:19] <KI7MT> If they exist .. but if there no longer valid for the next release, and the release they were written against is EOL, shoudl they not be closed?
[07:19] <godbyk> dsmythies: What are the two types?  You mean the (1) missing figures/blah file and (2) /usr/share/blah/blah that gets prepended with the local dir?
[07:20] <godbyk> KI7MT: Unless we're up for releasing updates, yeah. I don't know what the procedures and policies are for that, though.
[07:20] <dsmythies> godbyk: Yes, I think so, I actually need to review, but cann't get it it until at least tomorrow.
[07:21] <KI7MT> godbyk, I dont thing there's enough man-/-girl power to do updates too.
[07:21] <KI7MT> what's with these other two MP's they been there for a while now
[07:21] <godbyk> KI7MT: You're probably right.
[07:22] <godbyk> KI7MT: Usually I get to MPs more quickly, but I've been on vacation for a bit. I just got back this past week and have been getting caught up on housework and the like.
[07:22] <godbyk> KI7MT: Also, I'd say that smaller MPs get processed a lot more quickly.
[07:22] <dsmythies> KI7MT: I am only aware of one old one for DeskTop and one old one for Serverguide. Is that what you are referring to?
[07:23] <godbyk> If I can glance at a diff and immediately see what it's doing and that it doesn't break anything, it's easy for me to accept it.
[07:23] <godbyk> If it's a huge diff, it takes me longer to test it and read through everything.
[07:23] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Yes I think your right maybe they got updated .. maybe I just been looking at that page too much . LOL
[07:24] <dsmythies> KI7MT: I do not have the ability to test the DeskTop one. Peter was looking at Serverguide one, and it os now stale. I'll kick the serverguide one. I hate MP sitting around forever.
[07:25] <KI7MT> ALl I know is there's allot of work to do .. lots of clean up stuff., and lots of validation.
[07:25] <dsmythies> KI7MT: last cycle, I cleaned up all old (some very very old) Serverguide MP's.
[07:26] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Oh the hinbernate one, that's not a good one to enable actually, but the docs should be available .. hibernate is less that 50.50 to work on all HW.
[07:26] <godbyk> KI7MT: Yeah, that's why I haven't touched the hibernate one.
[07:26] <godbyk> Well, a couple reasons:
[07:27] <godbyk> 1. I don't like having to tell people to type cryptic commands into a terminal.
[07:27] <godbyk> 2. I'm not sure that's the best solution. It seems more like a software bug than a documentation bug.
[07:27] <godbyk> If a feature isn't exposed by the software, it shouldn't be our job to provide cryptic workarounds.
[07:28] <KI7MT> I look at it this way, if it's Grey'ed out by the Developers, probably a good reason for that :-)
[07:28] <godbyk> We should document the software as it exists today.
[07:29] <KI7MT> I agree .. there's enough to do with that, let alone adding to the pile.
[07:29] <dsmythies> godbyk: I was thinking similar. That bug report went on and on and on, and I never really understood doc involvment or requirement.
[07:30] <KI7MT> that's becasue they want the feature, but there's not official workaround, so they work it from other angles .. lol
[07:30] <KI7MT> You shoud sit a watch Ubuntu IRC for a while .. OMG . some of the things they do to try and circumvent things is amazing :-)
[07:32] <godbyk> dsmythies: Yeah, for the longest time I couldn't figure out how docs figured into that bug either. I had to reread their messages a few times to see what was going on.
[07:33] <KI7MT> Ubuntu-Docs doesn't really .. Hibernate is not a Application Support feature.
[07:33] <godbyk> If that bug is still open when I get that far down my inbox, I'll add a note to this effect and move it off of our plate.
[07:33] <KI7MT> I gotta get back into Bug Control .. makes that stuff easy then.
[07:34] <KI7MT> but being in bug-squad can change priority and things.
[07:35] <KI7MT> In all actuality, the bug "I think" should be against upower not ubuntu-docs to document the hack.
[07:37] <godbyk> This MP has been handled already, right? https://code.launchpad.net/~ki7mt/ubuntu-docs/accounts-files-patch/+merge/201182
[07:37] <godbyk> (It says it's been merged, but from the comments, I'm not sure if it's completely settled or not.)
[07:37] <KI7MT> Yes it has.
[07:38] <godbyk> Okay, cool. I get to move another email out of my inbox. \o/
[07:38] <KI7MT> I did one MP, screwed it up, did another MP and had to push an update to that one .. and it still ahd issues, whihc are now fixed :-)
[07:40] <KI7MT> godbyk, YOu on that last email to gunnar .. we need a full aduit, and we need to use Dash >> Some Applicaiton .. where ever possible I think
[07:40] <KI7MT> *You right .. .. .
[07:42] <godbyk> Ah, gotcha.
[07:42] <KI7MT> There is allot of hold over form point and clickv..
[07:43] <KI7MT> from point and click ..
[07:43] <godbyk> I'd say that for some items where there are direct menus that we can use (e.g., the indicator menus), it's faster to use those than to search in the Dash and then hope it shows the results we expect.
[07:44] <godbyk> The results that the Dash shows are dependent on what applications a person has installed, which applications are used most frequently or more recently, etc.
[07:44] <godbyk> So it's rather nondeterministic from a documentation point of view.
[07:44] <KI7MT> Yeah those on the Top-Bar, yeah, those ore easy P&C ..
[07:44] <KI7MT> But what is that Bar called, and si everyone using the same name for it?
[07:46] <godbyk> That's one of the questions I'd like to get settled for 14.04.
[07:46] <KI7MT> gnome docs calling the Activity Bar now I think
[07:46] <KI7MT> and its labeled as such, can't miss it.. lol
[07:47] <godbyk> Yeah, it's not called that in Unity.
[07:47] <KI7MT> In the gnome style guide, i'll go find it again, they took a pic and labeled everything  for docs.
[07:48] <godbyk> Yeah, I pestered mpt about this a while back.
[07:48] <godbyk> At the time, he said the top bar is called the menu bar.
[07:48] <godbyk> The menu bar contains the window title, window menus, application status menus, and system status menus.
[07:49] <godbyk> I don't know, however, if that is still the preferred terminology or not.
[07:50] <KI7MT> I dont know, that's just it .. when Unity hot the street is when this should have been hashed out.
[07:50] <godbyk> Agreed.
[07:51] <godbyk> There's inconsistencies throughout the UI and various docs projects, too.
[07:51] <godbyk> I'd like to get everyone on the same page.
[07:51] <godbyk> Establish a canonical list of terminology (along with spelling, capitalization, etc.).
[07:51] <godbyk> Then we can file bugs and patches to fix things in the docs and UI to bring about some consistency.
[07:52] <KI7MT> akaq Terms: https://developer.gnome.org/gdp-style-guide/stable/gnome-glossary-desktop.html.en
[07:53] <godbyk> Yeah, the Ubuntu docs style guide references that, too, I think.. but some terms differ and may even be out of date for GNOME.
[07:53] <godbyk> For example, menubar is now spelled as two words: menu bar.
[07:53] <KI7MT> We just need to make it for Ubuntu.
[07:55] <godbyk> Well, we have one.. though it's out of date: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/StyleGuide/StandardTerminology
[07:55] <KI7MT> Actually, on my laptop here, Im using gnome 3.1 it's actually very nice to use.
[07:56] <KI7MT> Yes, the split from gnome to Unity .. allot of things need goign over form the beginning I think .. we'll get there eventually .. lol
[07:57] <KI7MT> I like Evolution mail better that TBird also, TBird address book is terrible I think
[07:58] <KI7MT> Doesn't KDE have their own Sites now ?
[07:59] <godbyk> I think they do.
[07:59] <KI7MT> Yeah, pretty Blue one's I think.
[07:59] <KI7MT> Thats the best part about KDE, the color, but that's where it ends for me .. LOL
[08:00] <KI7MT> Although, this QtRazor rumor is a bit worrying ..
[08:01]  * dsmythies not a night owl... guys, back tomorrow
[08:01] <KI7MT> cul dsmythies
[08:01] <godbyk> G'night, dsmythies!
[08:02]  * godbyk is going to tackle this hibernate MP+bug now...
[08:02] <KI7MT> Ok I'll be round for a while yet.
[08:05] <KI7MT> godbyk, We sould sure use one of these, tailored for Desktop Help: http://blogs.gnome.org/shaunm/files/2012/01/mallardcheatsheet.png
[08:06] <godbyk> Nice find!
[08:06] <KI7MT> I don't know Mallard well enough yet, but  I been keeping notes
[08:12] <godbyk> Okay, here are the comments I added to the bug and MP: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/+bug/1232814/comments/59
[08:12] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1232814 in indicator-session (Ubuntu) "Hibernate option is missing from menu in 13.10 even after trying to re-enable" [Undecided,Confirmed]
[08:12] <godbyk> We'll see how much flak I get for them. :)
[08:12] <KI7MT> LOL
[08:14] <KI7MT> I think that's the right answer, while the patch may work, it's outside the scope of sys-docs to engineer workarounds.
[08:15] <godbyk> I also feel uncomfortable instructing readers to type long commands into the terminal.
[08:15] <KI7MT> We need to get all the writing on one style .. be it XML, plain txt .. something ..
[08:15] <godbyk> Who is 'we'?
[08:15] <KI7MT> long commands, new users, I normally see them in Ubuntu IRC shortly after .. LOL
[08:16] <KI7MT> we  being all the doc teams  we :-)
[08:17] <godbyk> You mean between desktop docs and server guide, for instance?
[08:17] <KI7MT> server on DockBook, Desktop on Mallard, Ubuntu-Man on L aTeX .. Im not sure what the flavors are on right now.
[08:17] <godbyk> Ah, gotcha.
[08:17] <godbyk> Well, those markup languages are all geared toward different end products.
[08:18] <godbyk> Mallard is good for short bits of online help,
[08:18] <KI7MT> Mallard, :-)
[08:18] <godbyk> LaTeX is good for generated printed material (and PDFs),
[08:18] <godbyk> Docbook kind of tries to be all things to all people.. but it can generate html and PDFs and the like.
[08:19] <KI7MT> Asciidoc :-)
[08:19] <godbyk> I wouldn't use Mallard to write a book, for instance.
[08:19] <godbyk> Docbook can generate PDFs, but I don't think they look very good and it doesn't have very much typographic control as far as I can tell.
[08:20] <godbyk> asciidoc is like the lowest common denominator which means it's bad at everything. :-)
[08:20] <KI7MT> what's your email you use normlay or prefer, I'll share a UIbuntu One folder with real quick.
[08:20] <KI7MT> Ubuntu One
[08:21] <godbyk> I use godbyk@gmail.com for Ubuntu One.
[08:22] <KI7MT> see if you can DL this: http://ubuntuone.com/5MVA3ylPXyuJWQOi9W2tpO
[08:23] <godbyk> Yep
[08:24] <KI7MT> You need to extract it fist then run the HTML
[08:24] <godbyk> Which html file should I open?
[08:24] <KI7MT> Any of them, is three diff TOC's
[08:24] <KI7MT> ot TOC type.
[08:25] <KI7MT> the author of the application is a Nobel prize guy in Astro Physics or something like that, Joe, K1JT
[08:26] <KI7MT> Anyway, I wrote up his manual using Asciidoc in about two days.
[08:28] <godbyk> cool
[08:28] <KI7MT> the source directory is the raw input
[08:28] <KI7MT> one line command to generate the pages.
[08:29] <KI7MT> Point is, Im not say Asciidoc is the best, but something like is it what we need, plain test front end, multiple back-ends.
[08:29] <KI7MT> plain text
[08:29] <godbyk> The problem is that the plain text frontend isn't expressive enough.
[08:29] <KI7MT> Ascidoc does text in, DocBook Back end, LaTex baxkend, epub, all sorts.
[08:30] <KI7MT> expressive ?
[08:30] <godbyk> Can asciidoc handle Mallard <link> tags, for instance?
[08:30] <godbyk> Or its <info> tags?
[08:31] <godbyk> Basically, with plain text, you lose the structure.
[08:31] <godbyk> And asciidoc is still a markup language.. it's just different than XML or LaTeX or Docbook.
[08:31] <KI7MT> Yes, Shaun said it works with Malllard, he tried it .. either  Ascidoc, or Asci-Doctor (Ruby Gem Version)
[08:31] <KI7MT> I'd have to ask him which again.
[08:32] <KI7MT> I think ascii-doctor it was .. not sure .. Ascii-Doctor is a Ruby Gem Port of Asciidoc.
[08:33] <godbyk> How do you mark something as being a GUI element in asciidoc?
[08:33] <godbyk> Does it have any sort of semantic markup?
[08:33] <KI7MT> LOL .. I dont know, .. I dont know how to do it in Mallard either .. LOL
[08:34] <godbyk> In Mallard, I think you just write <gui>menu item</gui>.
[08:34] <KI7MT> I think that is all in what they call the back-end, or the Style sheet.
[08:34] <godbyk> Then you can use the style sheet to tell the viewer how to display GUI elements. You can make them bold or italics or a different color or whatever.
[08:34] <KI7MT> Yes
[08:35] <KI7MT> there's two docsuments ya gotta edit for cumstomization, CSS and an xsl sheet I think.
[08:35] <godbyk> Yeah, depending on what you want to customize.
[08:36] <KI7MT> but from a user standing point, to start a list, I just put a *  to have a Level 2 heading start it with == Some Level Two heading Here
[08:37] <godbyk> Yeah.
[08:37] <KI7MT> Look in the source directory,  that shoes the makrkup I did/
[08:37] <godbyk> For LaTeX, I'd just write \chapter{...} or \section{...} for the headings.
[08:37] <KI7MT> shows
[08:37] <godbyk> See, for example, http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/trusty/view/head:/software-management/updates-and-upgrades.tex
[08:39] <KI7MT> I tried to follow  a bot of LaTeX before. Ipersonally, did not think it was too harsh .. but new writers, those new to linux, DocBook and LaTex is like pluto.
[08:39] <KI7MT> *a bot of LaTeX
[08:39] <KI7MT> LOL bIt
[08:39] <godbyk> Yeah, there is a bit of a learning curve—especially if you want to do something other than the defaults.
[08:39] <godbyk> But I think that's true for most markup languages.
[08:40] <KI7MT> Pretty much ..
[08:41] <KI7MT> this is an href - {wsjtx}  this is a marker/shortcut [[X7]]
[08:42] <KI7MT> Note with the icon I want: [icon="./images/icons/example.png"]
[08:42] <KI7MT> [note] standard not icon
[08:42] <KI7MT> Everything has a learning curve for sure.
[08:45] <KI7MT> But, the thing is, with a test input font-end, of whatever kind, that allows allot more people to participate.
[08:46] <godbyk> Well, unless the original source files migrate to that frontend, I don't think it'd work.
[08:46] <godbyk> And if the end result is to be Mallard (for example), why not just start there to begin with?
[08:47] <KI7MT> The first thing you see wiht Desktop and Server guide is, got create some crazy PGP /SSH stuff .. sure is easy for you and me, but probably not to a Windows guy.
[08:47] <godbyk> Then you have all the power of Mallard at your fingertips instead of the watered-down version you'd get via asciidoc or another frontend/translator.
[08:47] <godbyk> Well, sort of.
[08:47] <godbyk> There are more options and we should make those clear if they're not.
[08:48] <godbyk> For example, people can report bugs and let others deal with the markup.
[08:48] <godbyk> Or email the list.
[08:48] <KI7MT> Yeah, I agree for those that can handle the Markup of Mallard, definitely best way to go.
[08:48] <godbyk> They don't need to create a Launchpad account, learn bzr, Mallard, etc., necessarily.
[08:48] <KI7MT> We need to tell them that though
[08:48] <godbyk> I agree.
[08:49] <godbyk> We only started writing/updating the 'how to be an ubuntu-docs contributor' documentation last cycle.
[08:49] <godbyk> And what we've written so far is just to cover what we had to learn ourselves to get up and running.
[08:49] <KI7MT> Here's what ya get for getting started: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuDesktopGuide
[08:49] <godbyk> As we move forward, we can start expanding the team docs to encompass other ways of contributing.
[08:50] <KI7MT> That's what's what I talking about .. BZR, SSH, PGP.. all scare words to allot of folks not familiar with them
[08:51] <KI7MT> That's why I linke the ubuntu-manual model, writers and editors ..
[08:52] <godbyk> Well, we could do that for the ubuntu-docs team, too, if we have enough people.
[08:52] <KI7MT> Maybe it's just a slow time for Doks right now, but, not allot of MP's hitting launchpad.
[08:52] <KI7MT> *for Docks
[08:52] <godbyk> But the authors and editors on the manual team write LaTeX directly, generally.
[08:52] <KI7MT> Yeah, thing is, why no people?
[08:53] <godbyk> Well, part of that is because we're kind of in between cycles. Not enough has been finished in 14.04 to document yet.
[08:54] <godbyk> As to the lack of volunteers, I think there are a few reasons for that:
[08:54] <godbyk> Historically, people who approached the docs team asking how they could help would be thrust into the world of Docbook/Mallard/bzr/Launchpad/etc.
[08:54] <godbyk> The barrier to entry was just too high, and so they gave up and left.
[08:55] <godbyk> The docs team wasn't very communicative with the rest of the community, either.
[08:55] <godbyk> So we didn't even know the team was completely dead until late in the 13.04 cycle.
[08:55] <godbyk> So for 13.04 and 13.10, we were just trying to get things minimally updated and pushed out the door.
[08:56] <godbyk> Now that we're starting to get our legs under us, we'll work in finding more volunteers to help out.
[08:56] <KI7MT> Oh .. I didn't know that ..
[08:57] <KI7MT> well .. I just jumped in .. should have read more, should have done allot of things different, but that the way I am,  go get it done, fix it and move on :-)
[08:57] <KI7MT> But not everyone is like that.
[08:58] <KI7MT> I learned a long time ago, dont know who said it originally, but if your not breaking something, your not trying hard enough :-)
[08:58] <godbyk> I tell that to the students I work with, too. :)
[08:59] <KI7MT> Not being funny, but, it's documentation, if we break the build, the box still gonna work, and we cna fix what we broke.
[09:00] <KI7MT> Things like Kernels and Vid Drivers etc, may want to be a bot more careful :-)
[09:00] <KI7MT> *bit
[09:00] <godbyk> Yeah.
[09:01] <KI7MT> I had no idea the team fell apart in 13.04 - 13.10 .. I spent allot more energy on LTS builds normally.
[09:02] <godbyk> Yeah, the final docs team member mentioned that he was the last one standing during the 13.04 cycle.
[09:02] <godbyk> Doug and Ben and I stepped in to try to get the docs out for 13.04.
[09:02] <KI7MT> Like right now there's 36 folks in this room .. and probably less that 10 have chatted over the last 24hrs.
[09:03] <godbyk> And then we tried to update some things for 13.10, but only got so far along before we ran out of time.
[09:03] <KI7MT> yeah, there's only so much you can do when it's crunch time.
[09:07] <KI7MT> Dont think this one gonna be fixed, Jocky has gone away: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/+bug/409338
[09:07] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 409338 in Ubuntu Documentation "Change the name of "Hardware drivers"" [Undecided,New]
[09:09] <godbyk> nice
[09:09] <godbyk> Let's see what the current docs say..
[09:12] <KI7MT> Mine says Additional Drivers, but Im on 12.04.4
[09:12] <godbyk> Looks like it mentions the Additional Drivers tab on only one page.
[09:14] <godbyk> I don't see the 'hardware drivers' app mentioned any longer in the docs, so I'll close this bug.
[09:14] <KI7MT> Yup
[09:15] <KI7MT> there's also so clever code going on in the background, your box needs these drivers, that thing shows up, if ya dont, it wont.
[09:15] <KI7MT> *if your box .. .. ..
[09:15] <godbyk> it's timing out when I try to mark the bug fixed. Guess I'll have to try again in a bit.
[09:16] <KI7MT> I need to get back into bug control .. im only in Bug Squad right now.
[09:17] <godbyk> Maybe you can answer a question for me..
[09:17] <godbyk> We get a decent number of bugs filed under the docs project that don't belong there.
[09:17] <godbyk> Sometimes I know where they should go and redirect them..
[09:17] <godbyk> but sometimes I don't.
[09:17] <godbyk> Is there a general catchall I can put them under so someone smarter than I can triage them?
[09:18] <godbyk> (finally got that bug marked as 'fix released', btw.)
[09:18] <KI7MT> Im not sure .. I used to use just ubuntu  but it's been a long time since I could triage bugs or disposition them.
[09:19] <KI7MT> You can select the more / advanced options ans do some searching .. but there's hundreds of tags available.
[09:22] <KI7MT> this one 6 months old: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/+bug/1194589
[09:22] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1194589 in Ubuntu Documentation "Firefox gave an Untrusted Site Warning for two separate Community Ubuntu Documentation Sites." [Undecided,New]
[09:26] <godbyk> I'll flag that one as incomplete. I don't see any errors when I visit the docs sites with Firefox.
[09:26] <KI7MT> I didn't either.
[09:28] <KI7MT> I talks wiht Doug briefly about this one, Windows Live still a viable entity:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/+bug/1228952
[09:28] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1228952 in Ubuntu Documentation "Windows Live references obsolete" [Undecided,Confirmed]
[09:30] <godbyk> Wikipedia says Windows Live was closed down in April 2013: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Live
[09:31] <KI7MT> mHmmm
[09:32] <godbyk> What's more important, however, is what it's called in the Ubuntu UI.
[09:33] <godbyk> For 13.10, it has "Windows Live" as a type of online account I can add.
[09:33] <godbyk> I'm not sure what it'll say for 14.04 yet.
[09:34] <KI7MT> I did not change the reference in the Online Accounts docs, left it as Windows Live .. but that may be wrong.
[09:38] <KI7MT> godbyk, I asked in Bugs about a default bug bucket, and they said we should not put anything if we don't know .. but I don't think LP will allow us to leave the Tag null.
[09:38] <godbyk> I don't know if I can remove a bug's association with the ubuntu-docs project without assigning it to a different project.
[09:39] <godbyk> I think I tried that once and it didn't work.
[09:39] <KI7MT> Yeah, think I did to, but if shouted at me for it.
[09:39] <KI7MT> *it
[09:40] <KI7MT> godbyk, Here we go: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Tags#Generic_bug_tags
[09:41] <godbyk> I don't want tags, though.
[09:41] <KI7MT> what bug you looking at?
[09:41] <godbyk> I want to know what project or package to assign the bug to.
[09:42] <godbyk> Well, let's pretend that this bug doesn't belong to ubuntu-docs, for instance: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/+bug/1228952
[09:42] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1228952 in Ubuntu Documentation "Windows Live references obsolete" [Undecided,Confirmed]
[09:42] <godbyk> (It does, but we can look at it..)
[09:42] <godbyk> When I click the edit link for Ubuntu Documentation, I have to give it another project/package in its place.
[09:43] <KI7MT> I use the hour-glass to search for it based on the bugs write.
[09:44] <KI7MT> Using the Tags should, put it with the right project .. and if you get the right one, the correct package too. In the real world, that id the submitters responsibility.
[09:45] <KI7MT> But the Triage team has to check all that based on the reports sent in.
[09:51] <godbyk> Well, it's nearly 4 a.m. here. I need to get some sleep.
[09:52] <KI7MT> Yeah, me too .. CU tomorrow
[09:52] <godbyk> G'night, KI7MT!
[19:13] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Are you working on bug lp:1269100 or do you want us to work it?
[19:33] <dsmythies> KI7MT: I only added your name for your potential interest, and since it relates to, and is follow up from, our IRC conversation yesterday. I'll do it, eventually.
[19:34] <dsmythies> KI7MT: However, take it if you want it.
[19:37] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Ok, yeah I can work it, shouldn't take too long. One of the files has that personal copyright thing on it though.
[19:38] <dsmythies> KI7MT: O.K. thanks very much. I am trying to get some serverguide stuff done. While minor, it keeps slipping and slipping and...
[19:38] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Yup. no problem, will submit it later this afternoon.
[21:13] <KI7MT> dsmythies, done with the edit, could only do minor things on the wacom pages, as I don't have that tablet.
[21:43] <KI7MT> Who writes the installation guide listed here: https://help.ubuntu.com/13.10/installation-guide/index.html
[21:48] <godbyk> No one.
[21:49] <godbyk> I think it's effectively dead.
[21:50] <KI7MT> godbyk, GA .. another question for you .. Nautilus or Files .. the install package, 14.04 is 3.8.2 .. but when I look at the about information, it's name if Files ?
[21:54] <godbyk> Yeah, it's called Files now.
[21:54] <KI7MT> godbyk, Ok, jst needed to make sure I had that correct.
[21:55] <godbyk> np
[21:58] <dsmythies> KI7MT: godbyk; Yes, someone picked up the work on the installation guide late last cycle. He missed the deadline for including the updates.
[21:59] <godbyk> dsmythies: Oh, did someone pick up the installation guide? Excellent! I must've missed that.
[21:59] <dsmythies> I guess I better check about progess for this cycle.
[21:59] <dsmythies> godbyk: Yes.
[22:00] <godbyk> I'm currently reading through the hibernation thread on the tech board mailing list. So far I'm not seeing anything that convinces me to change my view on the docs patch.
[22:00] <dsmythies> godbyk: Last night I forgot to warn you that KI7MT doesn't sleep.
[22:00] <godbyk> dsmythies: Yeah, I'm starting to realize that! :)
[22:07] <dsmythies> KI7MT: godbyk: Installation guide missed deadline due to floods in Colorado. Understandably, the person was unable to do ubuntu stuff for awhile.
[22:08] <KI7MT> dsmythies, ahh i see . was just curious as I don't recall seeing that format before
[22:09] <godbyk> dsmythies: Ah, yeah.. I remember something about that now.
[22:10] <dsmythies> KI7MT: What you see is my crude hack job at trying to eliminate, or at least reduce, all the errors due to the old theme.
[22:12] <KI7MT> dsmythies,  I see, I have not been not been on the 13.10 much.
[22:12] <KI7MT> 13.10 pages .. .
[22:20] <dsmythies> KI7MT: godbyk: For your possible interest: https://code.launchpad.net/~qbalazs/installation-guide/trunk/+merge/190783 (i'll ping him also)
[22:23] <godbyk> dsmythies: Thanks. The installation guide uses docbook, right?
[22:30] <KI7MT> godbyk, I think I opened pandoras box .. documents-x.page files and files-x.page files .. wow  that's allot of work.
[22:31] <dsmythies> godbyk: Ugh... Ugh... I forget. ... Yes, it looks DocBook ish to me. I'll be forced to remember better when I have to build it again.
[22:31] <KI7MT> Bad thing is, documents-x.page files nto on the excell spreadsheet ..
[22:31] <KI7MT> So we just add them in a needed ?
[22:31] <KI7MT> *as
[22:31] <dsmythies> yes, just add them
[22:31] <KI7MT> ok
[22:32] <KI7MT> There's only 16 of them .. LOL
[22:33] <KI7MT> 13 w/o the stubs though ..
[22:40] <KI7MT> 12 .. there's 3 stubbies :-)
[22:40] <KI7MT> *4
[22:51] <dsmythies> KI7MT: my 14.04 DeskTop VM is on the fritz again. There will be a delay before I can look at your MP.
[22:52] <KI7MT> dsmythies, There's no hurry .. I have plenty of other things to work on.
[23:20] <belkinsa> jono, can I PM you about something?
[23:21] <jono> belkinsa, sure
[23:25] <dsmythies> KI7MT: I see other issues in the mapping of spreadsheet files to actual .page files. Am soring it out.
[23:25] <dsmythies> *sorting
[23:30] <KI7MT> dsmythies,sri, im not following  what your saying, whats the issue?
[23:33] <dsmythies> KI7MT: There are some .page files that exist that are not on the spreadsheet (more than you just found). There are some files listed in the spreadsheet that do not actually exist.
[23:35] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Oh yes, many more .. and allog of .stub files in the /C that dont need to be there, was going to propose we move them to /C/templates as I gave an idea or two on how we could use that setup./
[23:35] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Im on my phone and fat fingers not typing too well .. lol
[23:38] <dsmythies> KI7MT: gobbyk knows about the .stub files and why they are there and such. Myself, I forget what Kevin said about them, last cycle when I asked.
[23:40] <KI7MT> dsmythies, I know what they are for when using the gnome system of tags and yelp to create templates.
[23:40] <KI7MT> dsmythies, But if we're not using that system it's just cluttering up the source tree.
[23:42] <KI7MT> dsmythies, We have /C/Templates/games :-) .. not sure that's being using, but it could  as there's solitaire installed by default I think.,
[23:43] <godbyk> The stub files are just unfinished page files.
[23:43] <godbyk> Page files that someone started or thought might be needed but didn't actually finish writing.
[23:44] <KI7MT> Yeah, there are allof of them, like 50+ or so, and allot of old dates, 2012 ish ,, was gonna propose we move them into /C/templates
[23:45] <godbyk> I wouldn't put them in templates as they're not templates.
[23:46] <KI7MT> Ok,  good point, I started playing wiht Shaun's cheatsheet, making  pages for those as a quick ref.
[23:46] <KI7MT> Not in ubuntu-docs source tree though
[23:48] <KI7MT> like yelp tables.page  and pulls up the tables page with examples etc etc
[23:49] <KI7MT> examples being the Mallard code we'd need to use in the docs, not just the final table render.
[23:50] <KI7MT> Cuz right now I'm using Gnotes or Tomboy for quick ref stuff ..cut and paste things..
[23:55] <KI7MT> I guess  could use Gedit code snippets or something too .. just thought yelp help was good way to display them