[01:04] <ali1234> popey: are you really sure ubuntu touch doesn't use any android userland? so, for example, you're using ofono directly against the hardware, and not RIL?
[01:06] <ali1234> diddledan: i think the main point is that even though you can build all the components and run them without android, you can't do it on any real phone that exists today
[01:07] <ali1234> at least not if you want it to work as a phone
[01:11] <ali1234> diddledan: if you want to really troll that thread, reply to david stating the following answers to his questions: 1. my lenovo ideapad 2. none, because there is no android version for it, 3. no, because no such cable exists for x86 PCs, 4. trusty, 5. the version from trusty
[01:14] <popey> ali1234: maybe some bits, i meant not what people usually mean by android - the dalvik bits
[06:50] <MooDoo> morning all
[07:09] <dwatkins> allo allo
[07:44] <knightwise> morning everyone
[07:48] <MooDoo> morning dwatkins knightwise
[07:51] <MartijnVdS> \o
[07:53] <knightwise> hey guys , how are you all doing today
[08:00] <MooDoo> yeah ok thanks, what about yourself.
[08:07] <knightwise> doin ok :)
[08:07] <knightwise> managed to get my plex server working just the way I want it to .. thus liberatin me from the burdens of iTunes
[08:10] <knightwise> Still need to pick my client side music player
[08:10] <knightwise> clementine or banshee , not quite sure
[08:14] <MooDoo> what's up with rhythmbox, I quite like that
[08:14] <knightwise> ah .. i could have a look at that too
[08:14] <MartijnVdS> I've been switching between rb and banshee
[08:15] <MartijnVdS> they tend to alternate breakage
[08:15] <knightwise> Cool , looks ok too.
[08:15] <knightwise> banshee is a bit "busy" on the ui side
[08:17] <knightwise> i"m thinking of putting elementary on my wife's imac
[08:18] <knightwise> but the distro is based on the "standard" amd64 bit distro of Ubuntu 12.04
[08:18] <knightwise> and not on the AMD64-MAC version
[08:18] <knightwise> so i'm a littel worried that this will cause the iMac to run hot
[08:27] <MartijnVdS> why?
[08:28] <MartijnVdS> isn't the only difference between the "amd64" and "amd64-mac" versions the boot mechanism?
[08:30] <knightwise> I'm not sure
[08:30] <knightwise> i"ve had experiences where, when you take the "non mac" distro on a mac it grows HOT
[08:31] <knightwise> and when you take the AMD-64-MAC edition it's fine
[08:31] <MartijnVdS> that's probably just a package then
[08:31] <MartijnVdS> which you can install separately
[08:33] <knightwise> I was thinking about just choosing the 32 bit version , but I have over 4 gigs of ram in that machine so ...
[08:33] <knightwise> but i'm afraid ubuntu and unity are gonna make the machine slugish ...
[09:28] <foobarry> watched sherlock. very OTT. i realise that moffat does silly episodes on the middle and last episodes of a series (cf. dr who). being a 3 episode series, it was unfortunate
[09:32] <dwatkins> I still can't believe the US version of Sherlock has 24 episodes per season compared to our 3.
[09:32] <foobarry> lol!
[09:32] <foobarry> any english actors?
[09:32] <dwatkins> I doubt it, foobarry.
[09:37] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Poetry At Work Day! :-D
[09:37] <bigcalm> dwatkins: are each of the US episodes 1h 30m long?
[09:37] <Myrtti> foobarry: sure, Jonny Lee Miller and this season Rhys Ifans
[09:38] <dwatkins> bigcalm: fair point, probably not
[09:38] <Myrtti> (not on every episode, mind you)
[09:38] <Myrtti> and each us episode doesn't glue as firmly to others as the uk ones
[09:38] <foobarry> i won't be watching. american tv gives me bellyache at best of times
[09:39] <Myrtti> it's an ok series, better than most of them
[09:39] <MooDoo> dwatkins: are you on about elemetary?
[09:39] <Myrtti> MooDoo: probably
[09:39] <Myrtti> I happily watch both
[09:39] <MooDoo> Myrtti: yeah it is, sorry didn't see jonny lee miller lol
[09:40] <diplo> dwatkins: I really like Elementary
[09:40] <diplo> Good show
[09:40] <diplo> bigcalm: Hour long ( well with adverts so closer to 40/45 mins probably )
[09:51] <bigcalm> Laptop has made it to "In Production". Woop. Wonder how many days it'll stay there
[09:51] <diddledan> lol
[09:51] <diddledan> morning
[09:51] <Myrtti> bigcalm: which one did you get eventually?
[09:52] <bigcalm> Myrtti: http://www.dell.com/uk/p/inspiron-15-7537/pd?oc=cn75305&model_id=inspiron-15-7537
[09:53] <Myrtti> D is looking for a new laptop but is almost militantly against Dells :-/
[09:54] <MartijnVdS> why? build quality has improved a lot, especially in the top-of-the-line model
[09:54] <MartijnVdS> s
[09:55] <Myrtti> I don't get it myself either, I like Dells
[10:03] <foobarry> had v good experience at home and in enterprise with business dells
[10:03] <foobarry> over 15 years working with them
[10:03] <foobarry> excluding the nvidia debacle that affected all vendors
[10:03] <bigcalm> I hope Ubuntu works out of the box on this new laptop
[10:05] <bashrc> it's always a gamble with new hardware
[10:08] <bashrc> IMHO all new laptops should have an Ubuntu preinstall option
[10:08] <foobarry> 1st anniversary of losing my dad today. plus my sons birthday. talk about mixed feelings :S
[10:13] <TwistedLucidity> foobarry: Really? Dell screens fail pretty quickly IME. They get this weird "ring" kind of effect.
[10:14] <TwistedLucidity> Which is odd and Dell desktop screens are pretty awesome.
[10:14] <TwistedLucidity> s/and/as
[10:14] <foobarry> TwistedLucidity: the ring effect is from pushing too hard on the outer case. was common with old inspiron models
[10:15] <MartijnVdS> don't put things on top of laptops
[10:16] <BigRedS> or buy laptops with more rigid backs of screens
[10:16] <TwistedLucidity> foobarry: That's what we used, Inspirons. Not sure what they use now. I'm not important enough to have a laptop and am not in the office any more
[10:16] <TwistedLucidity> MartijnVdS: I don't.
[10:17] <TwistedLucidity> BigRedS: That'd be Apple and we don't support OS X.
[10:18] <popey> my mbp has a small glowing area, i think someone left a pen in the laptop and shut it
[10:19] <TwistedLucidity> Even ThinkPads seems to have poor screens these days - although I've no clapped eye on the new T?40 models
[10:19] <Myrtti> foobarry: hang in there - I know I'll forever dread and hate last four days of June myself
[10:19] <TwistedLucidity> popey: They should have the web cam act as a proximity sensor and sound an alarm on close if an object is in the way.
[10:20] <popey> bigcalm: you have snow!?
[10:20] <bigcalm> popey: we have indeed, quite a surprise
[10:21] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: where are you? the North Pole?
[10:21] <DJones> hmmh, bigcalm = Santa ?
[10:21] <bigcalm> MartijnVdS: if I was, snow would be less of a surprise
[10:21] <bigcalm> DJones: my wife won't let me grow the beard
[10:23] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: show her http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GrowingTheBeard
[10:23] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: "Growing the Beard is the definitive moment when a television series begins to become noticeably better in quality"
[10:24] <bigcalm> MartijnVdS: http://www.flickr.com/photos/bigcuthy/sets/72157606644018228/
[10:25] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: it grows backwards?!
[10:25] <MartijnVdS> or is it all "slightly more shaved", starting from the beginning with a full beard?
[10:26] <bigcalm> ...
[10:26] <bigcalm> I'll let you decide :)
[10:26] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: O dpm
[10:26] <MartijnVdS> blah
[10:26] <MartijnVdS> I don't know how your hair grows!
[10:26] <bigcalm> Heh
[10:27] <bigcalm> Annoyed that the batteries in the flash were dead of the last shot
[10:27] <bigcalm> s/of/for
[10:31] <foobarry> ended up getting a fifth email from linkedin yesterday. thats the nail in the coffin
[10:32] <BigRedS> TwistedLucidity: my thinkpad seems to do okay
[10:32] <BigRedS> the screen's one of the few bits I've not yet replaced
[10:32] <BigRedS> foobarry: you know you can just turn those off?
[10:32] <TwistedLucidity> BigRedS: Got a T430 and whilst the screen is bareable, it's no IPS.
[10:32] <TwistedLucidity> *bearable
[10:33] <TwistedLucidity> And not even close to the g/f's MBP.
[10:33] <BigRedS> nah, but mbps don't have nipples
[10:33] <foobarry> BigRedS: gonna have a look. i have a secret stalker account that some settings mysteriously enabled themselves, causing much embarrasment
[10:34] <TwistedLucidity> BigRedS: Yup, that is a good feature but not as important as the screen. I can't switch to IPS, but there are better Lenovo screens that can be used. Might give modding a bit og a go.
[10:35] <BigRedS> I thought your issue was screens breaking
[10:36] <brobostigon> morning all.
[10:36] <TwistedLucidity> BigRedS: Use to be the case in the office - pretty sure they stopped using Dells now.
[10:36] <TwistedLucidity> I know we dropped them for desktops after they kept failing.
[10:41] <MartijnVdS> TwistedLucidity: where I worked, they always failed inside warranty, so we had Dell engineers to fix them almost every week 8-)
[10:46] <popey> i wish I had pushed back on dell when my xps failed a few years back
[10:47] <popey> hey ho, happy with my thinkpad now
[10:48] <TwistedLucidity> popey: BigRedS: You got a fingerprint reader on yours?
[10:48] <BigRedS> yeah, but it's not plugged in
[10:48] <popey> on my thinkpad? yes
[10:48] <popey> but I never use it
[10:48] <BigRedS> every second kernel upgrade seemed to make a blindingly bright LED stay on permanently
[10:48] <foobarry> sharpie
[10:48] <BigRedS> so one time I took it apart I just didn't plug it back in
[10:49] <TwistedLucidity> popey: Ah, I was going to ask if it worked. Mine scans, says it has my print but then doesn't manage to identify
[10:49] <BigRedS> fingerprint readers for auth on laptops has long seemed like a ridiculous idea to me anyway
[10:49] <popey> it has an LED?
[10:49] <TwistedLucidity> BigRedS: The light only comes on when the pad is enabled and that should only happen if the scanner package is installed and running
[10:49] <BigRedS> They're right next to about 100 copies of an imprint of your fingerprint
[10:49] <TwistedLucidity> popey: Aye, glows green I think
[10:50] <BigRedS> TwistedLucidity: mine always came on when X did
[10:50] <popey> fancy
[10:50] <BigRedS> popey: mine's the one before yours IIRC; X201
[10:50] <popey> i enabled it when i first got the laptop then realised it was silly so disabled it
[10:50] <TwistedLucidity> popey: Yeah, I know it isn't the best idea in the world - just wanted to see if it worked.
[10:51] <popey> yeah, works
[10:51] <popey> well, worked when I tried it ☻
[10:51] <BigRedS> mine never did :)
[10:51] <BigRedS> But I think I only tried it in Debian
[10:54] <TwistedLucidity> About the only thing it doesn't do, which would be nice, is enable/disable the various radios from CLI/DE. Although I'll admit, I haven't looked too hard into it as the Function Key combos seem to work.
[10:59] <davmor2> Morning all
[11:01] <bigcalm> Morning davmor2
[11:01] <bigcalm> Wonder if my new laptop will arrive before the next LUG
[11:06]  * DJones wonders whether to look at the person who accepted a facebook request from an account supposedly using our enquiries@ email account
[11:07] <davmor2> bigcalm: I wonder if my n4 will
[11:08] <bigcalm> Yay toys!
[11:08] <davmor2> bigcalm: work toy for me as they are drop maguro and the old n7 which are the two devices I happen to have :D
[11:09] <davmor2> s/drop/dropping
[11:09] <bigcalm> So they are buying you toys rather than you having to pay I hope
[11:10] <bigcalm> davmor2: is your toy being shipped from China?
[11:11] <davmor2> bigcalm: no idea just the cheapest on the interwebz that I could find, still a whole £2 more than Google were selling them off for though :(
[11:13] <foobarry> my kobo arrived \o/
[11:13] <foobarry> nice rubberised backing
[11:13]  * foobarry puts it back in the box until birthday
[11:16] <popey> sounds similar to the nook which also has a rubberised backing
[11:17] <Laney> oops
[11:17] <Laney> popey: did you ask me about a backport?
[11:18] <Laney> I saw the highlight and then forgot to reply and then forgot what it was about in particular
[11:18] <foobarry> http://www.computershopper.com/var/ezwebin_site/storage/images/media/images/kobo-back/632309-1-eng-US/kobo-back_large.jpg+
[11:18] <popey> i did
[11:18] <popey> mumble
[11:18]  * Laney spins around in circles
[11:18] <popey> 1.2.4
[11:18] <foobarry> sort of diamondy textured rubber
[11:18] <Laney> first step: file the request, second step: someone check it works, third step: it gets uploaded
[11:18] <davmor2> bigcalm: looked on EBAY and the bids there were 236 - 320 for the n4 and then the lower spec one was in at 168+  so typed it into the dash and amazon had one for 201, dash to the rescue \o/ woohoo! :)
[11:19] <Laney> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBackports
[11:21] <popey> kk
[11:41] <foobarry> how do i insert a reference in a LO writer doc, like a vmware official doc [1] says "meh"
[11:48]  * TwistedLucidity blames davmor2 for putting N4 thoughts into his head
[11:51] <davmor2> TwistedLucidity: I blame bigcalm wishing his laptop would arrive
[11:52] <bigcalm> I blame my lack of decent laptop and am rather impatient
[11:53] <popey> Uhoh! School inspection starts next week.
[11:53] <popey> wifey will be fun to live with that week.
[11:53] <davmor2> bigcalm: I was going to say you are the same when you order a pen and I know you have plenty of decent pens :P
[11:53] <bigcalm> davmor2: except that I buy pens direct from high street shops
[11:54] <davmor2> popey: you mean this week and next week, This week preping, next week doing :)
[11:54] <popey> true
[11:54] <davmor2> popey: lavender scented baths for when she comes home ;)
[11:55] <foobarry> and wine, flowers
[11:56] <foobarry> all my pens come from tech shows
[11:56] <popey> heh
[11:59] <Seeker`> sleeping pills in the wine? :P
[12:02] <popey> http://smstextblog.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/raspi-sat-nav.html?m=1
[12:02] <popey> interessin
[12:30] <foobarry> how can a rasb pi be powered? using a phone charger? using a laptop also?
[12:31] <MartijnVdS> foobarry: laptop might work, but 500mA isn't a lot and it might be unstable
[12:31] <MartijnVdS> foobarry: 1A or 1.5A phone charger is your best bet
[12:31] <foobarry> bah, have to wait till tomorrow then
[12:31] <foobarry> left phone charger at hoem
[12:36] <popey> mine works fine via laptop usb
[12:36] <popey> for the pi itself, only becomes unstable if you plug usb wifi adapters and stuff into it
[12:36] <foobarry> great, i'll try via my desktop
[12:37] <foobarry> i wanna run risc os, so no wifi req'd
[12:37] <popey> mine is an old pi though, original B1 model i think
[12:39] <AlexDSX> Hey, can anyone recommend a good UK hosting company?
[12:39] <MartijnVdS> the one with less mem?
[12:39] <MartijnVdS> AlexDSX: hosting what?
[12:39] <diddledan> I've got three of those
[12:39] <AlexDSX> PHP websites, mostly WordPress, some CI projects.
[12:39] <MartijnVdS> AlexDSX: so, VPSes basically?
[12:40] <diddledan> annoying that they increased the mem after I bought them
[12:40] <AlexDSX> Would be looking for dedicated or VPS to host multiple sites on
[12:40] <popey> bitfolk!
[12:40] <popey> http://bitfolk.com/
[12:40] <popey> or #bitfolk on irc.lug.org.uk
[12:40] <AlexDSX> Just having a look :)
[12:40] <MartijnVdS> there's also bytemark, which is very open source friendly :)
[12:40] <popey> i have had a vps from them for uhm... years
[12:41] <popey> since 2006 maybe
[12:41] <AlexDSX> I'm a Developer at a marketing company, so we're looking for a new host.
[12:41] <AlexDSX> Thanks for all the suggestions, just trying to read them all.
[12:41] <AlexDSX> I'm so used to US hosts like hostgator and media temple etc which I love.
[12:42] <ali1234> i don't know why people bother with VPS these days when dedicated servers are so cheat
[12:43] <diddledan> hetzner dedicated servers are ubercheap
[12:43] <diddledan> getting an equivalent system in blighty as I can get from hetzner would cost me nearly double
[12:44] <foobarry> A retired police officer shot dead a fellow cinemagoer in Florida in an argument over texting, police say.
[12:44] <bashrc> I just have a server at home, but then my needs are modest
[12:44] <foobarry> Ex-officer Curtis Reeves, 71, opened fire after asking a man sitting directly in front of him to stop texting several times, a Pasco County Sheriff spokesman said.
[12:44] <foobarry> who takes a gun to the cinema?
[12:44] <ali1234> americans
[12:45] <bashrc> dumb americans
[12:45] <foobarry> i seehow it happens. when people sit in their car outside beeping their horn at 12 midnight, i feel the urge to shoot people
[12:45] <diddledan> foobarry: you would too if you were worried about damned text-addicts
[12:45] <AlexDSX> Do dedicated servers normally come with cpanel?
[12:45] <MooDoo> 71??
[12:45] <foobarry> especially when they set off massive fireworks in the middle of the night for no reason, waking the whole dog/baby up
[12:45] <MooDoo> AlexDSX: not realy unless you purchase it at the same time
[12:46] <MooDoo> cpanel = cpanel.net ??   or a generic control panel?
[12:46]  * TheOpenSourcerer has 5 dedicated servers at Hetzner.
[12:46] <AlexDSX> So generally with dedicated you'd get your basic platform setup, i.e. linux, apache etc. Then it's up to you to install cpanel
[12:46] <AlexDSX> I mean cpanel, not generic.
[12:47] <MartijnVdS> AlexDSX: Most hosting providers have options to use cpanel (or one of its competitors) at install time
[12:47] <TheOpenSourcerer> Don't use Cpanel or Plesk - hate it.
[12:47] <diddledan> TheOpenSourcerer: I've only got one but it's a beast
[12:47] <MooDoo> what MartijnVdS saif
[12:47] <diddledan> me too on the cpanel/plesk hating
[12:47] <AlexDSX> TheOpenSourcerer what do you recommend?
[12:47] <ali1234> yeah, cpanel is something people only use when they have no choice, because they bought shared hosting
[12:47] <TheOpenSourcerer> We have one customer who has 7 VPS with us and ech of those runs CPanel.
[12:47] <AlexDSX> TheOpenSourcerer I'm no a fan of Plesk at all, but being quite comfortable with cpanel.
[12:47] <TheOpenSourcerer>  - lol
[12:47] <MooDoo> I like cpanel, hate plesk
[12:47] <TheOpenSourcerer> I dislike all of them.
[12:48] <AlexDSX> TheOpenSourcerer So what do you use?
[12:48] <TheOpenSourcerer> nothing.
[12:48]  * diddledan hides in shame, but I have a soft spot for virtualmin from webmin guys
[12:48] <TheOpenSourcerer> Command line and KVM
[12:48] <diddledan> I don't use it tho
[12:48] <MooDoo> AlexDSX: you only generally need cpanel if you don't know how to setup everything manually
[12:48] <ali1234> i love it when web designers ask me for "the cpanel login so i can upload the files"
[12:49] <MooDoo> cpanel is a convenience.
[12:49] <TheOpenSourcerer> cpanel is an annoyance
[12:49] <popey> name a vegetable I probably haven't eaten recently that I should try
[12:49] <TheOpenSourcerer> Kol Rabi
[12:49] <popey> (can you tell I'm doing the online grocery shopping)
[12:49] <diddledan> popey: fennel
[12:49] <foobarry> fenugreek
[12:49] <TheOpenSourcerer> popey: ^^
[12:49] <foobarry> pak choi
[12:49] <popey> whats kol rabi?
[12:49] <TheOpenSourcerer> Fenugreek is a herb
[12:50] <foobarry> what's fennel?
[12:50] <popey> ooh, some good suggestions giving me ideas, thanks chaps! that was easy
[12:50] <TheOpenSourcerer> Spelt it wrong: http://www.bbcgoodfood.com/glossary/kohlrabi
[12:50] <popey> keep going tho
[12:50] <TheOpenSourcerer> popey: As a good citizen you should also try for UK grown and preferably seasonal only.
[12:50] <foobarry> celeriac
[12:50] <davmor2> popey: Enokitake
[12:50] <TheOpenSourcerer> Edoes
[12:50] <foobarry> sugru
[12:50] <diddledan> foobarry: this is fennel: http://leighcourtfarm.org.uk/uploads/images/fennel-bulb.jpg
[12:51] <DJones> popey: Romanesco
[12:51] <TheOpenSourcerer> Mooli
[12:51] <foobarry> diddledan: but what is it classified as?
[12:51] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: Venkel!
[12:51] <diddledan> foobarry: green
[12:51] <TheOpenSourcerer> DJones: Good call! That's awaesome
[12:51] <popey> hah, sugru
[12:51] <popey> bit chewy
[12:51] <TheOpenSourcerer> Sweet Potatoes
[12:51] <popey> oh no, not chewy anymore
[12:51] <popey> HELP! MY MOUTH!
[12:51] <TheOpenSourcerer> Butternut Squash
[12:51] <popey> ooh, good call, rarely have sweet potatoes
[12:51] <MartijnVdS> popey: at least you won't need fillings
[12:51] <diddledan> sweet spuds are awesoem
[12:52] <popey> +1
[12:52] <TheOpenSourcerer> Purple Sprouting Brocolli
[12:52] <Dave2> Mash of swede and normal potato with nutmeg and pepper = teh tasty
[12:52] <TheOpenSourcerer> Turnips!
[12:52] <Dave2> I want to make some now
[12:52] <foobarry> ever eaten pickled white asparagus? yum
[12:52] <davmor2> popey: Plantain
[12:52] <TheOpenSourcerer> davmor2: Isn't that a fruit?
[12:52] <diddledan> plantains don't appeal to me
[12:53] <popey> I'd like to try that sometime
[12:53] <diddledan> they look like poor-mans nana
[12:53] <popey> maybe with some jerk chicken
[12:53] <davmor2> TheOpenSourcerer: the first was technically a fungi
[12:53] <davmor2> popey: black pea and bacon iirc for Plantain
[12:53] <TheOpenSourcerer> Never heard of that one before  ;-)
[12:54] <TheOpenSourcerer> My favourite veg: Leeks!
[12:54] <popey> ooh!
[12:54] <popey> good call
[12:54] <popey> love leeks
[12:54] <davmor2> TheOpenSourcerer: don't let your chilis hear you say that
[12:54] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: so.. leekspin.com?
[12:55] <diddledan> popey: I guess you're overbudget this week on shopping, now? :-p
[12:55] <TheOpenSourcerer> Sliced lengthways, put in a roasting dish with a glass of white wine sprinkle with some pine kernels and grated cheese, cover with foil cook in over for 1/2hr or so.
[12:55] <TheOpenSourcerer> Just about perfect
[12:57] <TheOpenSourcerer> davmor2: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+AlanLord/posts/7ysJbZ3JMrL
[12:57] <davmor2> popey: http://www.foodnetwork.co.uk/recipes/plantain-mash-bacon.html?omnisource=gid_uk
[12:58] <popey> bacon!
[12:58] <davmor2> popey: told you plantian went with black pea or bacon
[12:59] <davmor2> popey: jerk chicken is more a side to curried goat and peas and rice :)
[13:00] <TheOpenSourcerer> popey: http://izismile.com/2014/01/09/the_intricate_process_of_making_sriracha_23_gifs.html
[13:02] <popey> there's a shortage isnt there?>
[13:02] <popey> some issue with their factor in SFO
[13:02] <popey> (i have run out)
[13:03] <TheOpenSourcerer> There was some dispute in CA where they said he had to shutdown due to the smells (lol). But from what I heard it was end-of-season anyway and made no difference.
[13:04] <popey> ah
[13:04] <TheOpenSourcerer> But yes, on Amazon it appears to be out of stock.
[13:05] <TheOpenSourcerer> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sriracha-Hot-Chili-Sauce-482/dp/B0002PSOJW/ref=pd_sim_grocery_2 << This one isn't
[13:05] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: there was a fire in a Sriracha factory too earlier this year
[13:05] <TheOpenSourcerer> Oh - was that before or after the move?
[13:07] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: no idea
[13:14] <foobarry> rpi's just turn on wwhen power is connected?
[13:14] <MartijnVdS> yes
[13:16] <foobarry> hmm
[13:16] <MartijnVdS> but you need a properly laid-out SD card for it to actually *do* anything :)
[13:17] <foobarry> and maybe the hdmi->dvi adapter doesn't work with it
[13:17] <MartijnVdS> foobarry: it should
[13:40] <foobarry>  wow. riscos boots in mere seconds :_
[13:41] <foobarry> nostalgia  overload
[13:43] <dwatkins> I played Elite on my Raspberry Pi under RISC OS, hours of fun.
[13:44] <dwatkins> I also had fun writing BASIC programs to draw triangles, and wondered what they did to mess up the mode numbers.
[13:45] <popey> Eben was very keen that the pi would be a "BBC Micro"
[13:45] <popey> shame that didnt initially pan out
[13:45] <dwatkins> Model A vs Model B, shame they didn't call the Model B with more RAM the Model B+
[13:46] <popey> there's lots of models
[13:46] <popey> B1, B1+, B2, A
[13:46] <dwatkins> ah ok. what were they hoping to do? something like the school programme in the 1980s with the beeb?
[13:46] <dwatkins> Micro Live etc.
[13:46] <popey> dunno
[13:46] <dwatkins> would have been neat
[13:47] <diddledan> what's the diff between b1+ and b2?
[13:47] <MartijnVdS> mounting holes I think
[13:47] <popey> http://raspberryalphaomega.org.uk/2013/02/06/automatic-raspberry-pi-board-revision-detection-model-a-b1-and-b2/
[13:47] <popey> that gives you the full diff
[13:48] <diddledan> ta
[13:49] <diddledan> o_O there's B2 and B2 (rev2)?
[13:52] <dwatkins> B2 or not B2....
[13:52] <dwatkins> ...that is the question
[13:52] <dwatkins> I'll get my coat.
[13:53] <diddledan> oh was the B2 the board layout that got mass-produced and the rev2 was just the swap-out of the ram chip therefore not needing a board id change?
[13:53] <lazarus_> hi all
[13:57] <foobarry> http://i.imgur.com/I5a0apc.jpg sooo much nostalgia
[13:58] <foobarry> so fast aswell
[13:58] <popey> i thougt the ram was piggy backed on the cpu
[13:58] <MartijnVdS> popey: it is soldered on top of it
[13:58] <diddledan> popey: it is
[13:59] <diddledan> known as a POP
[14:01] <popey> https://vimeo.com/hnlondon watched that the other day, Eben talking about the history of the pi
[14:01] <popey> some nice little stories in there
[14:11] <MartijnVdS> hm. Amazon applied a £16 discount to my latest order.. by I have *no* idea why. Nothing in my gift card balance.
[14:12] <foobarry> affiliate moneys
[14:12] <MartijnVdS> foobarry: I don't have an affiliate account, afaik
[14:12] <foobarry> voodoo
[14:13] <MartijnVdS> if it's in my favour, why nout
[14:13] <MartijnVdS> not
[14:15] <MartijnVdS> (yay, free shaving)
[14:44] <MooDoo> http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/nerdiest-and-most-high-tech-business-card-youve-ever-seen?utm_content=bufferc5f7f&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
[14:44] <MooDoo> want one :D
[14:57] <awilkins> Where are the right-click shortcuts for Nautilus stored? I renamed my home folder but they are all absolute paths so they no longer work...
[14:58] <MartijnVdS> right-click shortcuts?
[14:58] <awilkins> Yeah, when you right click on the Nautilus icon in the dash, Downloads, Music, etc
[15:01] <MartijnVdS> never tried that
[15:02] <awilkins> I'm actually quite annoyed by the enormous number of things that store an explicit path to your home folder :-)
[15:02] <awilkins> Especially ones that use dconf
[15:03] <MartijnVdS> why change it though
[15:03] <awilkins> I wanted it to agree with the name on another machine - because of yet another thing that can't deal with relative paths (eclipse)
[15:04] <awilkins> I have an external caddy that I plug in and bind-mount folders from into my current home folder so I can carry work around
[15:04] <diddledan> symlink?
[15:05] <diddledan> sudo ln -s /home/pc1homefolder /home/pc2homefolder
[15:05] <awilkins> diddledan, Doesn't work properly - some things climb out of the linked folder
[15:05] <diddledan> fudge
[15:05] <diddledan> that's annoying
[15:05] <awilkins> Yeah
[15:05] <awilkins> sudo mount -o bind /media/me/otherpc/home/folder ~/folder works well
[15:07] <awilkins> But Eclipse still expects the full path to match ; so having the same home folder path on each drive becomes a goal
[15:07] <MartijnVdS> "So then I switched to vim"
[15:07] <awilkins> I don't think I'm quite ready to move Java development to vim :-P
[15:10] <diddledan> I like sublime text
[15:10] <BigRedS> I keep meaning to try that. But I don't know what I want it to do that vim doesn't
[15:11] <diddledan> BigRedS: the big thing that it does that vim doesn't, is: be not vim
[15:11] <BigRedS> I got geany with crunchbang and while I was looking around it it seems quite nice compared to gedit. But then I tried to use it and left a sprinkling of :w everywhere
[15:11] <BigRedS> diddledan: that's a bug, surely!
[15:12] <diddledan> I can't work vim
[15:12] <BigRedS> ah, the problem there is that you haven't learnt vim
[15:12] <diddledan> I can do basic stuff but anything clever is no-go
[15:12] <awilkins> vim is well worth climbing a little way up the learning curve
[15:12] <BigRedS> though judging by my experience, doing that just makes you intolerant of everything else
[15:12] <awilkins> But it definitely requires intensive study to do anything really clevber
[15:12] <BigRedS> but being conversant in vi is _really_ useful since it's always there
[15:13] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: but.. single-level undo, hjkl, *shudder*
[15:13] <awilkins> Emacs just makes my brain hurt though
[15:13] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: (think vim in compat-mode
[15:13] <diddledan> like, somehow I managed once to split a vi screen and couldn't work out how to unsplit it so I had to quit and restart
[15:13] <awilkins> Huh? vim has unlimited undo, no?
[15:14] <awilkins> And I use hjkl in normal vim
[15:14] <BigRedS> awilkins: vim yes, vim-in-vi-mode no
[15:14] <diddledan> hjkl?
[15:14] <BigRedS> rather than arrow keys
[15:14] <diddledan> oh
[15:14] <awilkins> The arrow keys are far away from everything else
[15:14] <awilkins> Using them is therefore inefficient
[15:14] <BigRedS> It's one bit of vim usage that I've never really got into
[15:14] <BigRedS> well, one of the bits...
[15:15] <awilkins> It's fine once you remember that J is "down" because the butt end of J points downwards
[15:15] <Laney> haha
[15:15] <BigRedS> by the time I've remembered that my hand's on the arrow keys
[15:15] <MartijnVdS> I don't do hjkl. I also use gvim + mouse often
[15:15] <diddledan> a major annoyance I have with vi/vim is that on some systems pressing the arrow keys puts D in your text on a new line
[15:15] <Laney> It just became unconscious after a little while for me
[15:15] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: that's vim in "compat" mode. Try :set nocp
[15:16] <BigRedS> Laney: yeah, I keep trying to spend a day doing it to get my head round it, then by about 9am I've already reverted to muscle memory
[15:16] <BigRedS> Maybe I need to remove my arrow keys
[15:16] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: nah, you need to ignore the haters :)
[15:17] <awilkins> Change your keymap to Dvorak and then try using vim
[15:17] <awilkins> MUAHAHAHA
[15:17] <diddledan> ewwww
[15:17] <awilkins> It's bad enough learning to use vim on a UK keymap, TBH
[15:18] <diddledan> I know someone who insists on using DVORAK
[15:18] <diddledan> he's a scala guru
[15:18] <diddledan> the problem with that is that he's left us with a load of scala properties which noone in our organisation knows how to maintain
[15:19] <awilkins> Well, that's hardly his fault
[15:20] <awilkins> Organizations should do their due diligence about single-points-of-failur
[15:20] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: but that's EXPENSIVE
[15:21] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: can't we just hire a consultant to fix it?

[15:21] <awilkins> I actually worked for one place that made me redundant, then realized that i) they were a software company ii) I was the only developer they had on staff iii) I'd just written them a major mail-merge system
[15:21] <BigRedS> my main problem with dvorak is if you press what looks like ctrl-c, dvorak is ctrl-J
[15:21] <BigRedS> which is equivalent to 'enter'
[15:22] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: they still spam people? ;)
[15:22] <awilkins> They came back a couple of weeks into my notice period and said "can we actually, like, not fire you??"
[15:22] <awilkins> MartijnVdS, No, this was for actual proper stuff - library card issuing or something
[15:23] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: I found a new job wen $boss announced he'd be scrapping most of the devs' jobs. Now the plan didn't go through and the company has a problem of devs running away.
[15:23] <awilkins> My response was "you do know I have a job interview with a 37% pay raise attafched to it tomorrow, right?"
[15:23] <diddledan> surely they kinda burnt their bridge by firing you in the first place
[15:23] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: new job > free money because of firing
[15:24] <awilkins> MartijnVdS, Yeah, they gave me a massive tax-free severance payment too to stop me (quite correctly) suing them for wrongful dismissal
[15:24] <MartijnVdS> that's useful :)
[15:24] <awilkins> Some of the job was interesting
[15:24] <awilkins> And I quite like being the only shark in the pond
[15:24] <awilkins> There was some cool crypto stuff because it was smartcard dev
[15:24] <awilkins> But VB6
[15:25] <diddledan> >.<
[15:25] <MartijnVdS> *le shuddre*
[15:25] <diddledan> eek
[15:25] <diddledan> I literally just swallowed my tongue then
[15:25] <awilkins> I refuse to learn VB.NET on the grounds that it will destroy the fact that I'm an N-th level wizard in VB6
[15:25] <MartijnVdS> I hope this was when VB was current
[15:25] <awilkins> Hahahah
[15:25] <MartijnVdS> VB6*
[15:25] <awilkins> Before the VB6 I did VB3
[15:25] <diddledan> when as VB6 _ever_ been current?
[15:26] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: I moved to Turbo Pascal from Quick Basic 4.5
[15:26] <diddledan> has*
[15:26] <awilkins> I've written XML parsers for VB3
[15:26] <awilkins> And XML / RDBMS  object persistence frameworks for VB6
[15:27] <awilkins> I can make string handling in VB6 go *fast*
[15:27] <diddledan> when I was teaching myself programming I created CGI scripts in VB6
[15:27] <awilkins> VBScript is not VB6
[15:27] <awilkins> Was that ASP pages
[15:27] <diddledan> no, not VBScript
[15:27] <awilkins> Or VB6 programs that ate input and spat output?
[15:27] <diddledan> actual .exe cgi scripts
[15:27] <awilkins> Hehe
[15:28] <awilkins> Did you have to do the little hack to turn them into console programs with STDIN and STDOUT?
[15:28] <diddledan> I can't remember now
[15:28] <MartijnVdS> /topic Welcome to #visualbasic-devs
[15:28] <awilkins> I can't recall what it was now but by default the compiler produces programs with no console
[15:30] <awilkins> The main problem with VB6 was that it was so easy to do stupid and evil things
[15:31] <awilkins> Once you have discipline (and a good set of libraries) it's not a bad language to knock things up in quickly,
[15:31] <awilkins> especially silly little GUI things for editing resources
[15:31]  * MartijnVdS still prefers Perl
[15:35] <diddledan> I really need to teach myself some perl
[15:35] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: yay, it's fun :)
[15:35] <diddledan> I can barely cobble a single-file script
[15:36] <diddledan> but OO and multi-file code I can't wrap my head around
[15:36] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: have a look at Moose (on CPAN, apt-get install libmoose-perl)
[15:36] <awilkins> OO is a definite mental shift
[15:36] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: that's "the" OO framework most people use these days
[15:37] <awilkins> Multi-file code not so much
[15:37] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: also, perldoc perlboot
[15:37] <awilkins> If you're using any modern language you're already using a huge library written in many files - you're just adding more
[15:38] <awilkins> If you have a problem with multi-file code you're probably not familiar enough with making / calling procedures in your own code
[15:38] <BigRedS> nah, I spent ages shoving everything in one file just because it's easier to edit and distribute that way
[15:38] <awilkins> The key point to grasp for OO is polymorphism, not implementation inheritance (which is what many sources seem to concentrate on)
[15:39] <BigRedS> it's later on where you notice that having split modules off is actually really handy
[15:39] <awilkins> The Gang of Four "patterns" book is probably a good thing to read for OO
[15:39] <BigRedS> oh, I just meant multiple-files in general. I use OO interfaces now and again but all my code is basically procedural
[15:39] <awilkins> As are Scott Ambler's books
[15:39] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: people should also learn that *composition* is often what you mean when your first instinct is inheritance
[15:39] <diddledan> like I can't work out how to have a sub foo {} in a file bar.pm and get it imported into the namespace of my main.pl
[15:40] <diddledan> so that I can call it with &foo()
[15:40] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: then you need to "use Exporter 'import';" and put it in @EXPORT_OK
[15:40] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: Don't call functions with & in front
[15:40] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: that's so Perl 4
[15:40] <MartijnVdS> :)
[15:40] <diddledan> it's been a while
[15:40] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: 20 years?
[15:40] <MartijnVdS>           5.000alpha1   1993-Jul-31
[15:41] <MartijnVdS>  Larry   5.000          1994-Oct-17
[15:41] <diddledan> heh
[15:41] <diddledan> well I was last messing with perl in earnest in 1999 ish
[15:41] <MartijnVdS> 5.005 era
[15:41] <MartijnVdS> that's when I started
[15:41] <awilkins> I'm afraid I'm not a perler
[15:41] <awilkins> I've fixed perl
[15:42] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: Try asking the people on #london.pm on irc.perl.org if you ever need Perl advice :)
[15:42] <diddledan> all the documentation online at the time said that functions were called as &foo
[15:42] <awilkins> And hacked around the existing perl `xquery` command supplied with the perl binding for libxml to work for libxml2
[15:42] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: most of the smartest Perl people are in there
[15:42] <diddledan> ah nice
[15:42] <awilkins> But I'm more of a Python boy
[15:42] <awilkins> Althogh not much of that
[15:42] <awilkins> Java is my dayjob
[15:42] <diddledan> java \o/
[15:42] <diddledan> :-p
[15:43] <diddledan> why does java get a bad rep, anyway?
[15:43] <awilkins> Dunno
[15:43] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: it already had that in '99
[15:43] <awilkins> I suppose it's not as slick and quick as Ruby or Python
[15:43] <awilkins> Many of the reasons it gets a bad rep have been overtaken by technology
[15:44] <awilkins> Although I still find it *excruciating* to do GUI layouts in
[15:44] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: it was slow, every app comes with its own copy of the jre, it's not as write-once-run-anywhere as you'd hope
[15:44] <awilkins> The "own copy of JRE" thing is still true
[15:44] <diddledan> I can't work ruby, either - it's got things that look like they're painful and make my eyes go screwey
[15:44] <awilkins> Well, for OTHER peoples apps
[15:44] <MartijnVdS> oh and a copy of every supporting libs
[15:44] <MartijnVdS> lib*
[15:44] <awilkins> Ruby just has too many maddening inconsistencies for me
[15:45] <awilkins> And also reverts back to an era where IDEs didn't exist
[15:45] <MartijnVdS> I only use it for chef recipes
[15:45] <awilkins> The whole thing.to_s  convention is just silly when you can have an editor that will autocomplete for free
[15:45] <awilkins> And underscores in naming conventions, blech
[15:45] <awilkins> (python also guilty I think)
[15:46] <MartijnVdS> underscore names for subs, CamelCase for classes
[15:46] <MartijnVdS> (and interfaces, etc.)
[15:46] <awilkins> Like the arrows, underscore is too far away for people to want to type it frequently
[15:47] <awilkins> ctrl-space is easy to reach. Get an IDE / smart editor and use autocompletion.
[15:47] <diddledan> I like camelCase for functions and InitialCapsCamelCase for classes
[15:47] <MartijnVdS> meh :)
[15:47] <awilkins> Yeah, the Java convention for names is fine
[15:47] <awilkins> Especially when you start learning and using patterns
[15:47] <awilkins> Things named consistently for their patterns are very easy to use
[15:48] <awilkins> i_have_a_dev_who_names_things_like_this
[15:48] <diddledan> dead dog man!
[15:48] <MartijnVdS> good man!
[15:48] <awilkins> public bool willAdrianKillHim() { return true; }
[15:48] <diddledan> I mean "dear god man"
[15:50] <BigRedS> haha
[15:50] <BigRedS> Every time I open up a new file I wonder about my extant conventions and whether to change any of them....
[15:50] <BigRedS> it's generally camelcase for everything except hash keys
[15:50] <diddledan> public bool dead = false; public void kill() { dead = this.willAdrianKillHim(); } public bool isHeDeadYet() { return dead; }
[15:50] <BigRedS> I don't know why
[15:50]  * awilkins contemplates opening a tabs vs spaces fight
[15:51] <BigRedS> I don't understand why you'd use spaces and I don't think I'm ever going to
[15:51] <BigRedS> they're like emacs
[15:51] <diddledan> TABS!!!!!
[15:51] <awilkins> Tabs
[15:51] <BigRedS> in that regard
[15:51] <diddledan> I get seriously peed off when I open a file with mixed tabs+spaces
[15:51] <BigRedS> just always always always use spaces to align things on different lines
[15:51] <awilkins> The main argument I get for using spaces is that mid-line code alignment doesn't work properly with tabs
[15:52] <awilkins> To which I say - use tabs for indent and spaces for alignment
[15:52] <awilkins> AND
[15:52] <BigRedS> exactly
[15:52] <awilkins> inline alignment of code is stupid
[15:52] <MartijnVdS> "But I can't see the diffrerence!"
[15:52] <BigRedS> I quite like inline alignment of code
[15:52] <awilkins> because you then add a variable with a longer name and have to re-align the other lines
[15:52] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: it's nice to align key/value pairs nicely.. easy on the eye
[15:52] <diddledan> lol
[15:52] <BigRedS> yeah
[15:52] <awilkins> Which generates a bunch of changes in your VCS that mean nothing
[15:53] <diddledan> yeah VCS with alignment issues is a pain
[15:53] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: Yeah.. well..
[15:53] <awilkins> One of my general rules is that if your code style causes changes to VCS history that don't actually mean changed code logic then it's wrong
[15:53] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: we do write:
[15:53] <MartijnVdS> if (foo) {
[15:53] <MartijnVdS> }
[15:53] <MartijnVdS> else {
[15:53] <MartijnVdS> }
[15:53] <MartijnVdS> to reduce diff noise
[15:53] <awilkins> I would usually do
[15:53] <awilkins> if (foo) {
[15:53] <awilkins> } else {
[15:53] <MartijnVdS> when adding an elsif in there
[15:53] <awilkins> }
[15:54] <BigRedS> awilkins: I view inlined code as not unlike indented code
[15:54] <awilkins> But I will consider your modification to the code style ...
[15:54] <awilkins> I like comma-prefix in lists rather than suffix
[15:54] <awilkins> ie
[15:54] <awilkins> String[] stuff = new String [] {
[15:55] <awilkins>                  "thing"
[15:55] <awilkins>                       , "nextThing"
[15:55] <awilkins>                     , "nextThing2"
[15:55] <BigRedS> I've never come across that and I dislike it already :)
[15:55] <awilkins> (pardon my uneven indents, stupid proportional fonts in IRC text entry bar, but fixed width in output
[15:56] <awilkins> If you add a new item with commas at the end (which is the most common thing to do) you affect 2 lines of code
[15:56] <awilkins> With the comma at the beginning you only add one line
[15:56] <BigRedS> I have a trailing comma on every line generally
[15:56] <BigRedS> partly so I don't need to append one to the preceeding line
[15:56] <awilkins> Ah, but that only works in some languages
[15:57] <BigRedS> yeah, but I only write in some languages :)
[15:57] <awilkins> And it's also dodgy in some of the ones that will permit it, like JavaScript, because implementations differ in different browsers
[15:57] <awilkins> IE chokes on that, but everything else works fine
[15:57] <BigRedS> In fact, I only really write in Perl, so some would say I've no place talking about code aesthetics
[15:58] <awilkins> You might think that some people describe Perl code as "keyboard vomit". I couldn't possibly comment.
[15:58] <daubers> awilkins: You just vomit like me?
[15:58] <awilkins> Nope
[16:10] <diddledan> does perl still use many different sigils depending on context?
[16:10] <diddledan> I never did get used to using the correct one
[16:11] <diddledan> e.g. % for hash, @ for array etc
[16:12] <Laney> ffs
[16:12] <Laney> I wish 6music wasn't so playlisted in the daytime
[16:28] <bigcalm> diddledan: yes, no idea what Perl 6 will use though
[16:29] <diddledan> perl6 was "nearly ready" many years ago iirc
[16:30] <bigcalm> I stopped looking at perl when I got a job in php
[16:30] <bigcalm> That was 2007
[16:30] <bigcalm> Cor
[16:31] <diddledan> I love PHP, but having to do JS front-end stuff I kinda sometimes wish I could do some of the funky tricks you can do in JS
[16:31] <diddledan> I can't think of any off the top of my head
[16:31] <diddledan> but I know there are some
[16:32] <bigcalm> I like doing PHP things in JS with the help of http://phpjs.org/
[16:43] <davmor2> Laney: listen to Absolute 80's/90's/00's/Radio instead
[16:52] <popey> AlanBell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M419D6LsqZU "10 Amazing Science Experiments you can do with Eggs"
[16:53] <popey> not particularly amazing
[17:02] <bigcalm> Fun things though
[17:16] <ujjain> How much would a gross £50k salary net?
[17:17] <ujjain> I am thinking about moving to London.
[17:17] <popey> thats about £3000 per month take home
[17:17] <awilkins> Take home pay about £36l
[17:18] <awilkins> Source : some thing on the internets : http://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php
[17:19] <bigcalm> I use http://www.listentotaxman.com/
[17:20] <awilkins> Of course, London is expensiver
[17:20] <popey> which comes out 2p different per month! Oh no!
[17:21] <bigcalm> Ticking the married box makes no difference
[17:21]  * popey shudders at how much of his salary goes to the tax man
[17:21] <awilkins> Most of my disposable income is down to having bought into the housing market at an opportune time, rather than my pay
[17:21] <bigcalm> Why did I get married then?! :(
[17:21] <popey> appeasment?
[17:21] <AlanBell> bigcalm: I think you have to get married before 1936
[17:24] <ujjain> awilkins, 36k to take home?
[17:24] <awilkins> ujjain, That's what the internet thingy thinks
[17:25] <ujjain> the company is located in London-Middlesex, where would £1k get me? probably 40+ min from the place?
[17:25] <bigcalm> £35,963.36
[17:25] <Laney> mmm tax
[17:25] <awilkins> I imagine that's before deductions for pensions etc
[17:26] <Laney> wowzers, I'm a couple of hundred quid better off in 2014/15
[17:30] <diddledan> Laney, that sounds good
[17:30] <diddledan> Laney: is that less taxing or more income?
[17:30] <Laney> dunno, I'd probably rather spend it on an old peoples home
[17:30] <Laney> the former
[17:44] <diddledan> MartijnVdS: that Moose.pm looks even weirder than my understanding of "normal" OO in Perl!
[17:46] <diddledan> http://search.cpan.org/~ether/Moose-2.1201/lib/Moose.pm <-- about as clear as mud.. at night.. when there's no moon.
[18:06] <ujjain> bilgdo: 3k monthly should be enough to survive living in the center of london right? just a lot of commute I guess.
[18:56] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: just look at a few examples :)
[18:57] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: basically, Moose writes a "new" for you, based on attributes you specify, and also does some funky stuff for introspection
[18:57] <jussi> so... I survived....
[18:57] <jussi> They didn't kill me
[18:58] <jussi> :)
[18:58] <MartijnVdS> jussi: who didn't?
[18:59] <jussi> MartijnVdS: the doctor who cut my throat
[18:59] <MartijnVdS> jussi: any particular reason?
[18:59] <MartijnVdS> jussi: or just "because"
[19:00] <jussi> MartijnVdS: yeah. tonsils adenoids
[19:00] <MartijnVdS> ah
[19:01] <MartijnVdS> so you can stuff bigger.. things.. back there (we teased my sister about that a lot when she had that done)
[19:01] <jussi> oh lol
[19:01] <jussi> MartijnVdS: in anycase, it hurts
[19:02] <MartijnVdS> jussi: yeah, it can hurt for more than a month
[19:02] <bigcalm> My sister was forced to eat lots of toast
[19:02] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: poor her
[19:03] <bigcalm> Not sure why really
[19:03] <jussi> toast?
[19:03] <diddledan> think that's bad, I had to live off a diet of JUST milk for two whole weeks before getting my gall-bladder removed
[19:03] <jussi> Icecream here....
[19:04] <MartijnVdS> I just had to live in the hospital for a week when I was born because I ate my own poop
[19:04] <diddledan> by the end of the fortnight I'd somewhat of a distaste for milk
[19:05] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: what about something like buttermilk?
[19:05] <diddledan> MartijnVdS: nope, had to be pure milk
[19:05] <diddledan> semi skimmed, too
[19:05] <diddledan> wasn't allowed full-fat or skimmed or any other variety
[19:06] <MartijnVdS> UHT vs pasteurised?
[19:06] <shauno> I just can't imagine dan without pizza
[19:06] <MartijnVdS> http://dftba.com/product/1155
[19:06] <diddledan> I think it had to be standard off-the-shelf as the milkman would deliver
[19:07] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: that's better than UHT then, because that tastes like poo
[19:11]  * bigcalm wonders where his link to Broken Age is. Link from HB is somewhat broken?
[19:12]  * bigcalm shrugs and goes looking for dinner
[19:15]  * jussi offers bigcalm a juice icypole
[19:15] <MartijnVdS> eww
[19:16] <diddledan> is that better or worse than an ice juicypole?
[20:31] <foobarry> adele blanc sec could have been so much better than it turned out
[20:31] <foobarry> morphs into a silly kids film
[20:49]  * popey ponders 16GB upgrade for x220
[20:50] <foobarry> android phone dropping call and going into call heolding status - dropped too many times, or a software refresh needed?
[20:52]  * popey wonders if http://www.crucial.com/uk/store/partspecs.aspx?IMODULE=CT102464BF1339 will fit
[20:55] <shauno> does their picker not have your model?
[20:58] <shauno> I tend to use crucial's picker for everything, since they warranty against d'oh that way
[21:07] <popey> it does, but I have seen others say 8GB supported, 16GB works but unsupported
[21:07] <popey> and i have had crucial be wrong before
[21:22] <shauno> that's pretty much how mine is; apple claim 8GB, but 16 works fine
[21:28] <diddledan> I can't upgrade mine :-(
[21:28] <diddledan> the movie "the internship" is fun
[21:28] <diddledan> just got done watching it
[21:29] <diddledan> I bought it through google, obv
[21:36] <diddledan> speaking of which, is it worth going for one of these expensive jobbies over a cheap-n-nasty ebay thing? http://go.bwlh.at/1hUD6oF
[21:37] <diddledan> normally maplin sells them for £99.99.99.99
[21:38] <diddledan> yeah, that's close enough
[21:38] <bigcalm> Oh, this is pleasing. Crucial say the new laptop can do 16gb http://www.crucial.com/uk/store/listparts.aspx?model=Inspiron%2015%20(7537)
[21:38] <diddledan> grr
[21:38] <diddledan> all ya'll with your upgrading shenanigans. I want more gigalumps of rams in my box too!
[21:39] <bigcalm> I haven't even received my new laptop yet and I'm looking at what I can upgrade in it :|
[21:39] <diddledan> lol
[21:39] <bigcalm> Will swap out the HDD for an SDD before powering on
[21:39] <ali1234> diddledan: the used one is worth it i guess
[21:39] <bigcalm> s/SDD/SSD
[21:39] <ali1234> i wouldn't pay £100 for one though
[21:40] <diddledan> ali1234: yeah, 100 seems a bit high for what it is
[21:40] <diddledan> when you can get essentially the same kind of thing with a touchscreen attached for 89 you gotta wonder why it's so expensive
[21:41] <ali1234> because it's maplin
[21:41] <diddledan> even non-maplin vendors of the same unit are super expensive
[21:41] <ali1234> also those £89 tablets are garbage
[21:41] <diddledan> e.g. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Point-View-HDMI-Smart-Dongle/dp/B00AAOR7DO
[21:42] <ali1234> maplin_webdeals?
[21:42] <diddledan> oh
[21:42] <diddledan> yeah, I just spotted that
[21:42] <ali1234> you know maplin sells on amazon right? :P
[21:43] <ali1234> if you google around you can often find the website of amazon sellers and cut amazon out
[21:43] <diddledan> yeah, so I'm guessing maplin have exclusive rights over that particular unit
[21:44] <ali1234> yeah, or alternatively it was made specifically for maplin
[21:46] <diddledan> seems the cheap sub £40 things that often sell on ebay aren't ever software-upgraded by the manufacturer
[21:46] <diddledan> even that PoV unit hasn't been upgraded since release
[21:47] <diddledan> they've instead issued a newer unit with the newer android
[21:47] <ali1234> of course
[21:47] <ali1234> don't expect any kind of support on these things
[21:47] <diddledan> grr
[21:47] <ali1234> your best bet is to buy the one with the best community support
[21:47] <diddledan> I want my googley play-doh movies on my teevees
[21:49] <diddledan> I suppose I could build an x86-based box with flash + drm support and do a custo-job
[21:49] <diddledan> drm still just required the hal package?
[21:50] <ali1234> dunno
[21:50] <ali1234> i just record films off the telly
[21:56] <bigcalm> Would anybody like to help me fix my workstation? I'm somewhat bored of having to make do with Windows
[21:56] <bigcalm> Monday morning I did a dist-upgrade. Noticed that it was going to do something with nvidia packages. After a reboot, I get a blank screen
[21:56] <diddledan> bigcalm: is "fix" a euphemism for "remove windows and put something meaningful on there"?
[21:57] <diddledan> did it finish the update
[21:58] <bigcalm> I can use ctrl alt f1-6 to go to tty1-6 (I know it is doing so because the number lock light will turn on and off for each one if I play with it). But I don't even see the CLI
[21:58] <bigcalm> I believe so, yes
[21:58] <bigcalm> I can SSH in, thankfully
[21:58] <bigcalm> Will a pastebinit of the xorg log help?
[21:58] <ali1234> probably not
[21:59] <ali1234> xorg is probably running and doesn't even know there is a problem
[21:59] <bigcalm> I've run apt-get remove nvidia-* and apt-get install nvidia-current. No change
[21:59] <diddledan> yeah I would surmise the same
[21:59] <ali1234> at what exactly time does the screen go blank?
[22:00] <bigcalm> After selecting Ubuntu in grub
[22:00] <bigcalm> I see the cursor for 1 second and that's it
[22:00] <ali1234> well, that seems odd
[22:01] <ali1234> is this trusty?
[22:01] <diddledan> that suggests that the framebuffer is failing to initialise
[22:01] <bigcalm> Yes
[22:01] <ali1234> the framebuffer never initializes with nvidia
[22:01] <diddledan> oh yeah
[22:01] <ali1234> it uses vga mode console
[22:01] <diddledan> even moar odd then
[22:01] <bigcalm> Also, only 1 of my monitors is powered on. The other 2 are in standby mode
[22:01] <ali1234> so the fact it's even trying suggests it is loading nouveau KMS stuff
[22:01] <ali1234> which obviously conflicts with nvidia quite badly
[22:02] <diddledan> yeah
[22:02] <ali1234> of course, it's trusty - this kind of breakage happens every cycle
[22:03] <bigcalm> Right, this is very odd
[22:03] <diddledan> trusty hasn't even made it to alpha yet?
[22:03] <bigcalm> I've just unplugged the HDMI cable from the nvidia gfx card and plugged it into the HDMI port on the mobo
[22:03] <diddledan> aah we're on alpha 1
[22:03] <bigcalm> I now have a login screen!
[22:03] <ali1234> figures
[22:03] <bigcalm> Which means that it's loaded the intel drivers okay
[22:03] <diddledan> (for opt-in)
[22:04] <ali1234> so it's just using the wrong graphics card
[22:04] <ali1234> perhaps because it couldn't load the nvidia ones
[22:05] <bigcalm> Humm, even though it gave me a login screen, logging in gives me a blank screen (with mouse cursor) and nothing else
[22:06] <bigcalm> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6752885/ if it's of any use
[22:06] <ali1234> that probably indicates that unity believes you have 3d acceleration (because you have an nvidia card) so did not set up the software fallback
[22:06] <popey> hey bigcalm
[22:06] <popey> why remove nvidia?
[22:06] <ali1234> but the nvidia card doesn't work, so unity just draws nothing
[22:07] <ali1234> try using a desktop that doesn't require 3d acceleration
[22:07] <bigcalm> popey: in an attempt to kick it into life. I did reinstall via nvidia-current
[22:07] <ali1234> ie anything that isn't unity or gnome shell
[22:07] <popey> when is that paste from?
[22:07] <bigcalm> Just now
[22:08] <popey> ok, so it failed to load the driver
[22:08] <popey> what kernel you running?
[22:08] <popey> uname -a
[22:08] <bigcalm> 3.11.0-15-generic #23-Ubuntu SMP
[22:08] <popey> oh and what version of ubuntu? 13.10?
[22:08] <bigcalm> 13.10
[22:08] <diddledan> trusty is 14.04
[22:09] <ali1234> that's not trusty
[22:09] <popey> in /var/lib/dkms do you have a folder for the nvidia driver?
[22:09] <bigcalm> popey: nvidia-304
[22:09] <popey> and thats the version of nvidia-* you have installed, right?
[22:10] <bigcalm> Yes
[22:10] <popey> and in that directory is there a dkms log you can paste?
[22:10] <bigcalm> Not that I can see
[22:11] <popey> whats in there?
[22:11] <popey> a directory for 3.11.0.15-generic?
[22:12] <bigcalm> iain@snafu2:/var/lib/dkms/nvidia-304$ ls -l
[22:12] <bigcalm> total 4
[22:12] <bigcalm> drwxr-xr-x 4 root root 4096 Jan 14 21:54 304.117
[22:12] <bigcalm> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root   32 Jan 14 21:54 kernel-3.11.0-15-generic-x86_64 -> 304.117/3.11.0-15-generic/x86_64
[22:12] <popey> right, so go in that folder
[22:12] <bigcalm> There's a make.log
[22:12] <popey> there's a log down there
[22:12] <popey> pastebin the make.log
[22:12] <bigcalm> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6752920/
[22:13] <popey> sudo apt-get update
[22:13] <popey> sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
[22:13] <popey> does it pull anything in?
[22:13] <bigcalm> No
[22:14] <popey> lsmod | grep nvidia
[22:14] <popey> does it list the nvidia module?
[22:15] <bigcalm> I've just noticed that I have  xorg-edgers-ppa-saucy.list in my /etc/apt/sources.list.d
[22:15] <bigcalm>  - bit odd
[22:15] <ali1234> yeah that will do it
[22:15] <popey> ooh
[22:15] <popey> yeah
[22:15] <bigcalm> lsmod shows nothing for nvidia
[22:15] <popey> you probably want to purge that ppa
[22:15] <bigcalm> Do you remember the command, beacuse I never do :)
[22:16] <popey> sudo apt-get install ppa-purge
[22:16] <bigcalm> Already have it
[22:16] <popey> sudo ppa-purge ppa:xorg-edgers/ppa
[22:18] <bigcalm> Wonder when I added that and why
[22:18] <popey> probably when you were faffing with 3 screens
[22:19]  * bigcalm reboots (again)
[22:20] <bigcalm> Login prompt from the intel hdmi port. Maybe I need to unplug it to get nvidia working
[22:20] <popey> i would disable it
[22:20] <popey> in bios
[22:20] <bigcalm> I'll give that a go
[22:23] <bigcalm> There isn't an option to do so. Just an option to set the primary display
[22:23] <bigcalm> Right now I have a flashing cursor
[22:24] <bigcalm> I can ssh in though
[22:24] <popey> waaat
[22:24] <bigcalm> New pastebin of the xorg log http://paste.ubuntu.com/6752971/
[22:24] <popey> [     3.658] (EE) NVIDIA(1): Failed to initialize the NVIDIA kernel module. Please see the
[22:25] <bigcalm> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6752971/
[22:25] <bigcalm> Oops
[22:25] <bigcalm> Failed to initialize the NVIDIA kernel module
[22:25] <diddledan> what about dmesg?
[22:25] <bigcalm> Yeah
[22:26] <bigcalm> What about it?
[22:26] <diddledan> pastebinit?
[22:26] <bigcalm> Doh, sorry :)
[22:26] <bigcalm> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6752978/
[22:26] <popey> [    3.732162] init: bumblebeed main process (1412) terminated with status 1
[22:27] <popey> bumblebee?
[22:27] <diddledan> bingo
[22:27] <popey> is this a laptop?
[22:27] <diddledan> I just got that too
[22:27] <bigcalm> popey: no, desktop
[22:27] <popey> huh
[22:27] <bigcalm> Remove it?
[22:27] <popey> i havent used any bumblebee machines, sorry
[22:27] <diddledan> you really don't want bumblebee on anything that doesn't have optimus label
[22:28] <popey> indeed
[22:28] <bigcalm> I have no idea what bumblebee is :)
[22:28] <bigcalm> Okay, it's about to remove bumblebee and primus
[22:28] <diddledan> it's part of the userland GPU-switcheroo thing that nVidia calls "optimus technology"
[22:28] <diddledan> yes, remove both those
[22:29] <diddledan> the idea of optimus is that you run intel gfx normally but switch-on the nvidia when demanding 3d work is required
[22:29] <bigcalm> Ah
[22:29] <diddledan> it's evil
[22:30] <bigcalm> No idea why it was installed
[22:30] <bigcalm> Right, rebooted and I'm back to a blank screen (no cursor)
[22:30] <diddledan> the nvidia chip can't do 2d and the intel chip can't do 3d (supposedly)
[22:30] <diddledan> so you hybrid the two together
[22:31] <directhex> lolvidia :(
[22:31] <directhex> optimus is so broken
[22:31] <diddledan> optimus is s stupid answer to a problem that was invented for the stupid answer to have a reason to exist
[22:32] <bigcalm> Any suggested next steps? :)
[22:32] <diddledan> just put a standard gfx chip in there damn you, nvidia
[22:32] <directhex> i've never used optimus on linux. i intentionally avoid it
[22:33] <diddledan> often the external port on an optimus laptop is "tied" to one or the other of the intel or nvidia gfx but not both so you need to pipe signals through the one you don't want turned on
[22:33] <diddledan> it really is a stupid idea
[22:33] <diddledan> I can't iterate that enough
[22:35] <shauno> sounds like a lot like my woes trying to get gpu-switching working
[22:36] <diddledan> I run windows on my optimus thing just because running unity under neutered intel-only sucks ass and the optimus thing isn't working under ubuntu
[22:37] <diddledan> if I could get vmware to actually work with optirun I might reconsider
[22:38] <diddledan> photoshop sucks donkey doo doo without gfx accelleration and I sometimes need to use that in my job
[22:38] <diddledan> so. windows.
[22:38] <ali1234> photoshop runs fine for me
[22:38] <ali1234> (in virtualbox with no acceleration)
[22:41] <popey> bigcalm: what does xorg log look like now?
[22:42] <bigcalm> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6753063/
[22:42] <bigcalm> Still no kernel module
[22:43] <popey> sudo apt-get install nvidia-304 --reinstall
[22:43] <popey> and watch the console
[22:43] <popey> see what it does
[22:43] <popey> dkms wise
[22:45] <bigcalm> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6753083/
[22:48] <popey> what if you "sudo modprobe nvidia" ?
[22:48] <bigcalm> Just did that
[22:48] <bigcalm> It seemed to load okay
[22:48] <bigcalm> How do I kick the GUI without rebooting?
[22:49] <ali1234> sudo service lightdm restart
[22:49] <bigcalm> Ta
[22:49] <bigcalm> My other two monitors just woke up
[22:49] <bigcalm> And I have a mouse pointer!
[22:49] <bigcalm> Sadly it's the X
[22:50] <bigcalm> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6753115/
[22:50] <ali1234> well nvidia is working
[22:51] <bigcalm> Yep
[22:52] <bigcalm> Rebooted and nvidia isn't loaded. Do I need to configure it manually?
[22:52] <diddledan> it's not blacklisted at all?
[22:52] <diddledan> /etc/modprobe.d/*
[22:52] <bigcalm> Where would I look?
[22:53] <bigcalm> iain@snafu2:~$ ls /etc/modprobe.d/ | grep nvidia
[22:53] <bigcalm> nvidia-304_hybrid.conf
[22:53] <bigcalm> nvidia-graphics-drivers.conf
[22:54] <diddledan> that doesn't look right - the hybrid one looks odd. can you pastebin that?
[22:54] <ali1234> i have the same thing
[22:54] <diddledan> ok
[22:54] <bigcalm> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6753137/
[22:54] <ali1234> it blacklists nouveau
[22:54] <diddledan> I thought maybe that was a remnant of the bumblebee
[22:54] <ali1234> yeah, got the same
[22:55] <diddledan> yeah that's fine
[23:02] <bigcalm> Oh poo
[23:02] <bigcalm> iain@snafu2:~$ sudo service lightdm restart
[23:02] <bigcalm> stop: Unknown instance:
[23:02] <bigcalm> start: Job failed to start
[23:04] <bigcalm> Removing xorg.conf allowed lightdm to start
[23:04] <bigcalm> Still have a blank screen though
[23:06] <bigcalm> sudo modprobe nvidia no longer loads the module
[23:07] <bigcalm> I think I have edgers installed because of these troubles in the 1st place
[23:08] <ali1234> possibly
[23:08] <bigcalm> s/have/had
[23:08] <ali1234> but that is no longer going to work, because edgers now has too new a version of xorg
[23:09] <bigcalm> x-swat maybe?
[23:09] <ali1234> no idea
[23:13] <bigcalm> No change
[23:22] <daftykins> what's the X version?
[23:25] <bigcalm> Whatever is current in 13.10
[23:25] <daftykins> ah :( i was hoping for greater specificity!
[23:25] <daftykins> if that's even a word.
[23:26] <bigcalm> How do I find out? :)
[23:30] <bigcalm> Version: 1:7.7+1ubuntu6
[23:31] <daftykins> hrmm i was under the impression it was currently in the 1.1x of versions
[23:31] <daftykins> dw though i wouldn't be much use
[23:32] <daftykins> i just vaguely read of x-edgers providing 1.15+ recently? perhaps even that's outdated info though
[23:32] <bigcalm> I did dkpg -s xorg
[23:32] <bigcalm> Or something like that
[23:32] <diddledan> ooh, I just spotted a new (in 13.10) option that I hadn't noticed before in the installer that lets you "reinstall" while keeping settings and some software
[23:33] <daftykins> :O
[23:33] <daftykins> who'd ever want to do that, surely the reason for a reinstall would be due to those very things snarfing up
[23:33] <awilkins> Because upgrades take epic periods of time
[23:34] <awilkins> I used to just move my home folder, reinstall everything, and then move files back as required
[23:34] <bigcalm> Looks like I followed http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/ubuntu-salamander-nvidia.html in the past. Because I found I had the /etc/modprobe.d/nvidia-graphics-drivers.conf file
[23:34] <bigcalm> Have removed the file (which blacklisted nvidia-current) and rebooted
[23:35] <bigcalm> I now have the lightdm login screen on 1 of my monitors
[23:35] <Azelphur> Does anyone know of any 802.11ac Mini PCI Express card with Bluetooth that's supported in Linux?
[23:35] <bigcalm> The other 2 monitors are still in standby
[23:35] <diddledan> bigcalm: login and use the "monitors" app to configure them
[23:35] <bigcalm> Sadly, the login screen is unresponsive. The keyboard has locked up. And I can't ssh into the machine
[23:35] <diddledan> oh
[23:35] <bigcalm> Yeah
[23:36] <bigcalm> I fear I may have killed it
[23:36] <bigcalm> If I hit the power button, I think APCI is responding as I see messages as the machine shuts down
[23:37] <bigcalm> Not sure how I will get so a useable state once more
[23:39] <bigcalm> Upon booting, the cursor blinks in the login password box for a few seconds before becoming solid
[23:40] <bigcalm> I guess I could use a live usb stick, mount the ssd and tinker with files
[23:40] <bigcalm> But I'd be clutching at straws
[23:41] <bigcalm> The machine still boots to Windows. So I know that I'll be able to work in the morning
[23:41]  * bigcalm heads to bed