[00:00] <knome> double-click the desktop
[00:00] <bluesabre> nope
[00:00] <knome> = napsauta työpöytää hiiren oikealla painikkeella
[00:00] <bluesabre> but en_US is different than en_GB
[00:00] <bluesabre> Trash Can vs Rubbish Bin
[00:00] <knome> yes, but both have a shared language name: English
[00:00] <bluesabre> ok, another example, chinese
[00:01] <knome> sure, but if the menu shows the selected language when opened, why show almost 100% the time redundant information?
[00:03] <bluesabre> to know what variant you have at a glance without opening the menu?
[00:04] <bluesabre> probably handy for translators
[00:04] <knome> how many people use several variants of a single language?
[00:04] <bluesabre> ^
[00:04] <knome> so we are designing the default greeter for translators, not users?
[00:04]  * knome facepalms
[00:05] <bluesabre> what real benefit is there to not showing the locale?
[00:05] <knome> less clutter
[00:05] <knome> what real benefir is there to show the locale?
[00:05] <knome> currently, we're showing an icon
[00:06] <bluesabre> ah
[00:06] <bluesabre> I have a good reason now
[00:06] <bluesabre> input method
[00:06] <knome> shoot
[00:06] <knome> is that tied to the locale+
[00:06] <knome> ?
[00:06] <bluesabre> dunno
[00:07] <knome> i mean, can't you have a northern chinese input method even if you are using the finnish language?
[00:07] <knome> sure you can.
[00:07] <bluesabre> changes the keyboard layout though
[00:07] <knome> umm,
[00:07] <knome> not sure if even that is true
[00:07] <knome> or, 
[00:07] <knome> if it can't be unlinked
[00:07] <knome> language is language
[00:07] <knome> locale is locale
[00:08] <knome> input method is input method
[00:08] <knome> and yes, you guessed it,
[00:08] <knome> keyboard layout is keyboard layout
[00:08] <knome> they barely have nothing to do with each other
[00:08] <knome> except that *usually*, you don't mix them (too much)
[00:10] <bluesabre> while I was working at the college, there were some international students with key locations swapped because of their locale
[00:10] <bluesabre> so they would bring it in and we wouldn't be able to type correctly
[00:10] <bluesabre> :)
[00:10] <knome> i'm not saying locale can't affect the rest of the stuff
[00:10] <knome> whether it should... that's debatable
[00:10] <knome> in most cases, it makes sense
[00:11] <bluesabre> I'm just saying that it can be a usability visual cue
[00:12] <knome> bluesabre, tell me (unrelated)
[00:12] <knome> why does my power button just switch the pc off
[00:13] <knome> when power button is pressed: nothing
[00:13] <knome> in xfce4-power-manager
[00:13] <bluesabre> thats a known bug
[00:13] <knome> and, how do i fix it
[00:13] <bluesabre> and I bet Unit193 can find it faster than me!
[00:13] <bluesabre> there's currently no fix I believe
[00:14] <knome> any workaround?
[00:14] <knome> that sucks.
[00:14] <bluesabre> unless there is one downstream in suse
[00:14] <Unit193> Not likely, right?  I'm bit busy. :P
[00:14] <knome> i'm used to use that to open the logout menu
[00:14] <knome> uuuuuniiiiiit
[00:14] <Unit193> /etc/systemd/logind.conf 
[00:14] <bluesabre> bbiab, dinner time
[00:15] <knome> Unit193, and the workaround? :P
[00:16] <knome> brb
[00:18] <knome> ok, i fixed that
[00:18] <knome> no
[00:18] <knome> i didn't
[00:18] <knome> well the button is ignored now
[00:19] <ochosi> knome: i was away, but i really think the discussion is a bit ridiculous, given that we're talking about 2 vs. 4 chars
[00:19] <knome> ochosi, we've had discussions about single pixels
[00:20] <ochosi> anyhow, as bluesabre and me seem to be both ok with passing along whatever we get from lightdm, i think we'll go with that
[00:20] <knome> my opinion will be smelly
[00:20] <knome> :P
[00:20] <ochosi> i also don't feel like doing string-operations on that and then maybe failing or showing misleading info
[00:20] <ochosi> yeah, feel free to report a bug against lightdm ;)
[00:21] <ochosi> and i have to admit i've become weary of single-pixel discussions
[00:22] <knome> as long as you accept that you might be offering misleading information with showing everything as well.
[00:22] <ochosi> no, i reject that in fact
[00:22] <ochosi> then you can say that the menu is offering misleading choices
[00:22] <knome> sure.
[00:22] <ochosi> and if you do that, go complain to lightdm
[00:23] <ochosi> it has nothing to do with the greeter
[00:23] <knome> except if the menu overrides all settings
[00:23] <ochosi> so it's simply an invalid bugreport
[00:23] <ochosi> not sure what you're talking about now
[00:23] <knome> nvm.
[00:23] <ochosi> and even less so, how that is related to changing the flag to the code
[00:23] <knome> fix my stupid power key.
[00:24] <ochosi> use the stupid PPA with the fix
[00:24] <knome> where the stupid PPA is
[00:24] <knome> :P
[00:24] <ochosi> :)
[00:24] <ochosi> it's one of Noskcaj's
[00:24] <ochosi> and has powermanager in its name i think
[00:25]  * knome sighs
[00:26] <knome> brb
[00:27] <knome> yay for Noskcaj
[00:27] <knome> now meh
[00:43] <bluesabre> oh good, it resolved itself :)
[00:43] <knome> me?
[00:43] <knome> :P
[00:44] <bluesabre> alrighty, menulibre time
[01:33] <ochosi> brainwash: so 1) and 2) are fixed
[01:33] <ochosi> waiting for your patches :>
[02:02]  * Noskcaj heard knome was discussing en_AU.
[02:02] <ochosi> :}
[02:03] <Noskcaj> now if i can just find the old translation script
[02:04] <ochosi> Noskcaj: for clarification: it was about the latest commit to the greeter, which shows the language code instead of the flag-icon now
[02:04] <Noskcaj> I saw. It's a good thing to change
[02:05] <ochosi> yup, greeter received lots of love in the last weeks
[09:54] <brainwash> ochosi: oh, I planned to look at the new issues somewhat soon, but let me mention them here 1) when you enable larger fonts via menu, the menus are drawn partially offscreen 2) reverting to normal font size does not rescale the top panel and login box properly 3) the onboard window cannot be closed via its "X" button
[10:38] <ochosi> brainwash: ok, waiting for those patches then :)
[10:38] <knome> hey ochosi,
[10:38] <ochosi> oy knome 
[10:38] <knome> have you planned to run moderation on ~xubuntu-art proposed members?
[10:39] <ochosi> hmm, i can do that
[10:39] <ochosi> so far i've always rejected all members and sent them an email asking them to introduce themselves
[10:39] <knome> for your convenience: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Toolbox/Messages
[10:40] <ochosi> no-one ever repliked
[10:40] <knome> but, if you have another template, you could add it there as well
[10:40] <ochosi> replied
[10:40] <knome> yeah, i'm not surprised ;)
[10:41] <ochosi> mkay, will take a look at how many are pending atm
[10:41] <knome> just asked because one recently popped up
[10:41] <ochosi> btw, if you wanna test the greeter language menu (and get angry at it again ;)), you can use the greeter's daily ppa, i pushed it yesterday night
[10:41] <knome> your way is probably better than the short, general message
[10:41] <knome> i probably should, and look if i can get what i want with changing LC_IDENTIFICATION
[10:42] <knome> though i guess not
[10:42] <ochosi> up to you
[10:42] <ochosi> but don't complain after 14.04 is released ;)
[10:43] <knome> well, if the "default" locale for a language is two-letter, i don't personally have a problem
[10:45] <ochosi> ok, then i guess it's fine
[10:45] <ochosi> ok, only one pending member, sent msg
[11:13] <slickymaster> morning all
[11:20] <slickymaster> bluesabre: you around?
[11:21] <bluesabre> hey slickymaster: just got here
[11:21] <slickymaster> bluesabre: dou you have a minute or two to talk about mugshot docs?
[11:23] <bluesabre> sure, works for me
[11:24] <bluesabre> tbh, I haven't really thought much about it.  Mugshot already has some mallard documentation in its repository, so you might able to use that as a starting point
[11:25] <slickymaster> well, My first question would be exactly that
[11:25] <slickymaster> is the documentation intended to be made on mallard, dockbook,...?
[11:26] <bluesabre> I think I might do what xfce does and use dokuwiki (since I've already been getting familiar with it)
[11:28] <slickymaster> to me that would be great, since I've never worked with Mallard and I have no problems with dokuwiki
[11:28] <ochosi> yeah, i think dokuwiki is a great choice
[11:28] <ochosi> nicer learning curve imo :)
[11:28] <ochosi> and to the worst you can use html for offline docs
[11:28] <slickymaster> if knome won't object to it, I' would bo for dokuwiki
[11:28] <bluesabre> heh
[11:28] <slickymaster> exactly ochosi 
[11:28] <bluesabre> its my project, what's he going to say about it :P
[11:29]  * bluesabre hides
[11:29] <slickymaster> yeah, we'll showing who's the boss
[11:29]  * slickymaster also hides
[11:30] <slickymaster> bluesabre: can you provide me the mugshot repository link, so I can take a look at the already existing docs?
[11:31] <bluesabre> slickymaster: https://code.launchpad.net/~mugshot-dev/mugshot/trunk
[11:31] <bluesabre> you'll find the docs under ./help/C
[11:31] <slickymaster> oh, it's in LP
[11:32] <slickymaster> good
[11:32] <slickymaster> btw bluesabre, you mentioned here, the other day, something about the help button. Were you referring to big 1229205
[11:33] <slickymaster> bug 1229205 ^^
[11:34] <bluesabre> slickymaster: I was originally going to remove that button, but since you'll be updating the docs, I'll update that button to open the online docs
[11:35] <slickymaster> bluesabre: will you set up everything at http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php for the mugshot docs, or do you want me to?
[11:36] <bluesabre> slickymaster: if you're able to, please do
[11:37] <bluesabre> I think I made you an admin, so you have free reign
[11:37] <slickymaster> do I have permissions to set up a new namespace?
[11:37] <bluesabre> I think so
[11:37] <slickymaster> ok
[11:37] <slickymaster> that's all I think
[11:37] <slickymaster> thanks
[11:39] <bluesabre> I made you an admin, you might have to log out/in
[11:39] <knome> bluesabre, slickymaster: as i've said, i don't mind how the upstream docs are written... but we'll want some portions of it in docbook for the xubuntu docs
[11:39] <bluesabre> right
[11:40] <bluesabre> but thats a different project altogether :)
[11:40] <knome> yep
[11:40] <bluesabre> btw HI knome!
[11:40] <slickymaster> knome: can't it be ported afterwards?
[11:40] <knome> but just that you both acknowledge that we need that as well
[11:40] <knome> slickymaster, most definitely
[11:40] <knome> hello bluesabre ;)
[11:41] <slickymaster> and a good morning knome 
[11:41] <slickymaster> even though it's almost lunch time :P
[11:41] <knome> morning slickymaster 
[11:41] <knome> yeah, it's definitely lunch time
[11:41] <knome> i was just thinking what i'd eat
[11:41] <knome> we haven't got much in the fridge, so i might not have many options
[12:19] <slickymaster> bbl ->
[13:38] <brainwash> ochosi: can you fix the greeter menu text shadows too please?
[13:38] <brainwash> git/master
[13:39] <elfy> hi brainwash 
[13:39] <ochosi> yeah yeah, i said i'll do that when i'm done with the greeter
[13:39] <elfy> and you too :)
[13:39] <ochosi> hey elfy 
[13:39] <brainwash> hi elfy 
[13:39] <ochosi> i'm already practically done with the session-menu, but i wanna support as many sessions as possible
[13:41] <brainwash> how many does unity-greeter support?
[13:41] <ochosi> not so many
[13:41] <brainwash> doesn't it simply display the session .desktop icon?
[13:41] <ochosi> no
[13:41] <ochosi> unity-greeter has a weird custom system
[13:42] <ochosi> i implemented a more standard-compliant version
[13:42] <ochosi> they use pngs, i use symbolic svgs
[13:42] <ochosi> they use /usr/share/unity-greeter/*_badge.png, i use /usr/share/icons/hicolor/scalable/places
[13:42] <brainwash> but how do you determine which icon to use?
[13:43] <ochosi> so actually ppl can add support for their session by adding icons to their icon-theme
[13:43] <ochosi> gtk_image_set_from_icon_name (GTK_IMAGE(session_badge), g_strdup_printf ("%s_badge-symbolic", current_session),
[13:43] <ochosi> fallback is the gear-icon
[13:44] <brainwash> mmh, ok
[13:44] <ochosi> anyway, i might push things as they are now and i can add support for more sessions later easily
[13:45] <brainwash> what about the mixed session like Gnome/openbox?
[13:45] <ochosi> depending on what session-string they set, they get an icon (or fallback if there's no match)
[13:46] <ochosi> so it's not the greeter's responsibility in fact, but the session's
[13:46] <brainwash> ok
[14:02] <ochosi> brainwash: how many sessions do you have installed now?
[14:05] <ochosi> zequence: ping
[14:06] <brainwash> ochosi: most
[14:06] <ochosi> ok, then i'm looking forward to you testing the session-menu :)
[14:07] <sergio-br2> hello everybory
[14:07] <brainwash> I'll add MATE too, should be available via ubuntu's repo now
[14:08] <sergio-br2> ochosi, elementary-xfce is still based on elementary?
[14:08] <ochosi> brainwash: don't have a mate-badge yet
[14:08] <knome> ochosi, how does one test the greeter then
[14:08] <ochosi> knome: add the lightdm-gtk-greeter daily PPA
[14:09] <ochosi> sergio-br2: well yes, kinda. i manually merge stuff from upstream, if it doesn't mess with the consistency. but there is no real automatic sync anymore
[14:09] <brainwash> so changes are already merged?
[14:09] <ochosi> brainwash: not yet
[14:09] <ochosi> i need a few more minutes
[14:09] <sergio-br2> ochosi, so i can use icons from there?
[14:09] <ochosi> and then i need to manually trigger a rebuild of the PPA, so don't expect anything before 1hr or so from now
[14:09] <brainwash> alright
[14:09] <ochosi> sergio-br2: you can, as long as you provide a consistent look across all sizes
[14:10] <brainwash> the new square terminal icon looks stupid in deskbar mode, forgot to mention this before
[14:11] <brainwash> a terminal is not meant to be square
[14:12] <brainwash> ochosi: do you like the new terminal icon?
[14:12] <sergio-br2> are there other icon theme similar to elementary-xfce?
[14:13] <ochosi> sergio-br2: there are others based on elementary, like ubuntu's humanity, but to be frank, it's quite unmaintained for a long time. so there's nothing worth mentioning that i know of
[14:13] <ochosi> brainwash: i just fixed it, personally i don't care so much about every li
[14:14] <ochosi> li'l icon
[14:14] <ochosi> i merge icons from elementary upstream that are consistent
[14:14] <ochosi> and i don't mind square icons
[14:15] <sergio-br2> ochosi, could you see later if my pull is right? just a feedback
[14:15] <brainwash> ochosi: I don't suggest changing it, so I'll just revert it locally
[14:16] <ochosi> sergio-br2: yeah, it looks ok technically, still gotta review the icons
[14:17] <sergio-br2> ok
[14:18] <ochosi> sergio-br2: don't have much time now, so i just looked at calculator and that looks fine!
[14:18] <sergio-br2> i tried to align somethings to pixel unity, so it fit better when is converted to png
[14:18] <ochosi> yeah, you always have to align everything to the grid
[14:18] <ochosi> otherwise -> fuzzy mess
[14:20] <sergio-br2> are any plan to use 256 pixel icons? 
[14:20] <ochosi> we can add them, but they're not used in xfce anywhere
[14:20] <ochosi> i've been maintaining that icon theme pretty much alone for a long time now
[14:21] <zequence> ochosi: pong
[14:21] <ochosi> and i don't have so much time for it with all the other things i'm working on
[14:21] <sergio-br2> elementary-xfce?
[14:21] <ochosi> yes
[14:21] <ochosi> zequence: what greeter does ubuntu-studio use? unity or lightdm-gtk?
[14:21] <zequence> lightdm-gtk
[14:21] <ochosi> zequence: and do you install a session-badge for unity-greeter?
[14:22] <zequence> ochosi: What's that?
[14:22] <ochosi> zequence: ok, i guess not then :}
[14:22] <ochosi> it's a white png of the studio-logo
[14:22] <zequence> ah
[14:22] <ochosi> goes into /usr/share/unity-greeter/
[14:22] <zequence> hmm, no I don't think we have added that yet
[14:23] <ochosi> thing is that i've added support for session-badges in the lightdm-gtk-greeter just now (about to merge it)
[14:23] <ochosi> and i added a badge for you guys as well, but i need to know the name of your session
[14:23] <ochosi> the unity-badge would've been one way of easily finding that out
[14:23] <zequence> it's "ubuntustudio"
[14:24] <ochosi> oh, cool, you know it
[14:24] <ochosi> these are the badges i've added so far: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-01162014-032426pm.php
[14:25] <zequence> Looks good :)
[14:25] <ochosi> in case it's not clear what i'm talking about: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-01162014-013359pm.php
[14:26] <zequence> Ok, so the session is chosen from the top bar
[14:26] <ochosi> yup
[14:27] <ochosi> that was also the case before
[14:27] <ochosi> so that's not a new change or anything
[14:27] <ochosi> before it just showed a generic gear-icon
[14:27] <ochosi> (and still does, if you use gtk2 or a session that has no badge)
[14:38] <ali1234> ochosi: did you ever want to make a theme where the active/inactive borders are a different size?
[14:38] <ali1234> because i am going to make that possible
[14:42] <ali1234> actually, forget that idea, it would mean patching half the source files
[14:42] <ali1234> however, you can have different sized corners :)
[14:45] <ochosi> ali1234: sounded interesting :)
[14:45] <ochosi> i guess it's not possible until xfwm4 is gtk3, but support for the dark_theme setting could also be nice
[14:45] <ali1234> i dunno what that means
[14:46] <ochosi> apps can ask gtk3 for a dark theme variant
[14:46] <ochosi> so the whole UI of e.g. video-players, image-viewers goes dark
[14:46] <ali1234> hmm
[14:46] <ochosi> not exactly a prime example of UI consistency ;)
[14:46] <ochosi> has caused some flamewars, but i can still see the point to some extent
[14:47] <ochosi> (greybird doesn't feature a dark variant on purpose not to have that weird bright window-border in xfce)
[14:48] <pmjdebruijn> that makes sense :)
[14:48] <pmjdebruijn> should be everything or nothing :)
[14:49] <ochosi> says the guy who made darktable use a custom dark gtkrc file? :D
[15:13] <ochosi> ok, so the session-menu has been pushed and a PPA rebuild is queued
[15:20] <pmjdebruijn> ochosi: touche
[15:20] <pmjdebruijn> ochosi: we actually tried to hint the gnome3 wm with the gtk3 dark reques thint, but it didn't work :)
[15:20] <pmjdebruijn> ochosi: and more importantly, darktable is meant to be used fullscreen anyhow :D

[15:25] <ochosi> pmjdebruijn: i'm surprised it didn't work with mutter, usually it should work fine with dark themes...
[15:31] <pmjdebruijn> the hint is only easy to set with gtk3
[15:31] <pmjdebruijn> we briefly tried to kludge it with gtk2, but we didn't bother investing too much time
[15:31] <ochosi> ah right, darktable is still gtk2 :/
[15:31] <pmjdebruijn> indeed
[15:31] <pmjdebruijn> we're porting slowly
[15:32] <pmjdebruijn> latest release has all the gtk3 changes that don't break gtk2
[15:32] <pmjdebruijn> now we're working on the gtk2 breaking changes for the next major release :)
[15:33] <ochosi> hehe
[15:33] <ochosi> sounds nice
[15:34] <ochosi> isn't porting just a lot of fun...
[15:34] <pmjdebruijn> yeah, we're lucky to have a contributor do it for us :)
[15:34] <pmjdebruijn> but contributing a gtk2/gtk3 port sortof makes him a core dev :)
[15:37] <ochosi> indeed
[15:40] <ochosi> ali1234: i forgot to paste that before, here's an example of an app using the gtk3 dark style: http://www.deviantart.com/art/gthumb-never-looked-sexier-426981212
[15:55] <ochosi> brainwash: greeter should be built and greybird has been fixed
[15:55] <ochosi> i guess i'll modify the greeter theme more heavily before the release, but this should be ok for testing now
[15:56] <brainwash> ok, I'll test it later today
[15:56] <ochosi> i'd be interested in which badges work :}
[16:36] <knome> ochosi, is the xfce session badge supposed to work with whatever version is in PPA now?
[16:42] <le_prof> pardon for interrupting, but as one who admins a small subnet of laptops with Pentium M processors, how complicated is it to include the code that fakes the PAE reporting for the new kernels?
[16:43] <le_prof> upgrades have become a huge time sink...:-(
[16:46] <knome> include the code where?
[16:46] <le_prof> in the install program
[16:47] <knome> won't do that for the main xubuntu images, but it should be pretty trivial to add that to a remastered image
[16:48] <le_prof> I get that...there is still an awful lot of older hardware out there though...and not all are capable
[16:48] <knome> yes, and since people usually only need to install one system.. it's barely a problem
[16:49] <knome> there are images prebuilt for lubuntu with fake-pae
[16:50] <knome> Unit193, tell us how hard it would be to modify any existing ISO and patch it with fake-pae
[16:50] <knome> Unit193, with a script, that is
[16:50] <le_prof> ! musta missed that...BBL
[16:53] <ochosi> knome: no, it uses the fallback until you send me the badge and i svg it
[16:53] <knome> :P
[16:53] <knome> ok
[16:53] <knome> i'm pretty sure i have it as svg
[16:54] <ochosi> ok, then send it to me in 16px
[16:54] <ochosi> bbl
[16:54] <knome> yes yes, when i'm on my desktop :P
[17:12] <brainwash> ochosi: so all the standalone wm session entries fall back to cog icon, like expected
[17:13] <brainwash> lubuntu does not show its icon
[17:13] <brainwash> the ubuntu icon is to grey-ish
[17:13] <brainwash> too
[17:32] <ochosi> brainwash: ok, so lubuntu has a different session name then. and the ubuntu icon needs some fixes. feel free to add icons for standalone sessions in /usr/share/icons/hicolor/scalable/places
[17:35] <brainwash> you really want to add icons for the basic wm only sessions?
[17:37] <brainwash> icons for cinnamon and so on would be nice
[17:37] <brainwash> the popular/major desktop environemts
[17:40] <brainwash> I'm not sure how to reproduce it, but I was always able to move the top panel twice already
[17:49] <elfy> brainwash: do you remember what the bug was that caused this? http://imagebin.org/287051
[17:49] <elfy> yay got live image working - now to track down all the myriad dupes
[17:50] <brainwash> elfy: xfdesktop --reload  fixed this, right?
[17:51] <elfy> no - didn't know what it was - just really checking that the iso loaded now
[17:52] <elfy> closed it again now - but I'll look later to see if it does
[17:52] <brainwash> so try to reload it
[17:52] <elfy> not now - just got in
[17:52] <brainwash> :D
[17:52] <elfy> bbl
[17:53] <brainwash> the daily iso already ships xfdesktop4 4.11.2
[17:54] <brainwash> let me find my own bug report
[17:55] <brainwash> elfy: https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10605
[17:56] <brainwash> eric_the_idiot: ^
[17:57] <brainwash> got a possible fix which I could test?
[18:04] <knome> ochosi, ygm
[18:04] <elfy> brainwash: yea - that's it - is there a LP one for it?
[18:16] <brainwash> elfy: no, haven't seen one yet
[18:17] <elfy> ok - well I'll do one at some point then if it's necessary - particularly prior to us testing A2 next week - easier if there is one there - cuts down on dupes sometimes
[18:17] <brainwash> add it to the know issues list
[18:17] <brainwash> known
[18:18] <elfy> well you'd best do that then - I've not seen any known issue list
[18:18] <elfy> you seem to know about one :)
[18:19] <brainwash> didn't the A1 announcement page have one?
[18:19] <elfy> that would have done yes
[18:19] <elfy> thought you meant a sensible list that everyone knew about
[18:20] <brainwash> so A2 will still lack most of the new stuff?
[18:21] <elfy> who knows
[18:21] <elfy> I don't
[18:21] <brainwash> including possible panel layout changes and gtk3 indicators
[18:21] <brainwash> :/
[18:23] <elfy> well - not completely sure when the image gets frozen other than soon
[18:23] <elfy> but I would have to assume at this point - the answer to that is a no
[18:25] <elfy> the next milestone will be the end of February
[18:25] <elfy> so - I'd have to hope we get all these things in by then at least
[18:26] <knome> brainwash, things will move forward faster if more people are helping
[18:33] <brainwash> more people with merge/upload permissions are needed :/
[18:33] <knome> yes, but more people can help get stuff into sponsorship queues, create patches/diffs etc to improve the situation even without new uploaders
[18:33] <knome> whining doesn't, unfortunately, help
[18:34] <knome> otherwise we would have gotten a lot more things done in the past and during this cycle
[18:36] <elfy> perhaps people knowing about that stuff can pass on the information to those who don't for the things that they could do 
[18:36] <elfy> sponsorship queues etc
[18:36] <elfy> back at 7
[18:36] <knome> sure... but won't do it unless asked, because it's a waste of time to tell people who are unwilling to help
[18:41] <elfy> of course
[18:50] <brainwash> knome: I mean it's currently not that easy to test the daily iso and contribute with patches/fixes
[18:51] <brainwash> if the tester is required to use all the PPAs
[18:51] <knome> i understand
[18:52] <brainwash> :)
[19:04] <elfy> brainwash: that said - people testing the daily iso are testing it - warts and all
[19:04] <elfy> those wanting to test with the ppa's know - they got told
[19:08] <ali1234> so i just finished implementing support for gtk 3.10 header bar apps in xfwm
[19:08] <knome> so...
[19:08] <knome> we should have a meeting :P
[19:08] <ali1234> it's ready for testing if yer brave
[19:08] <knome> who's here?
[19:08] <elfy> o/
[19:08] <ali1234> o/ obviously
[19:09] <elfy> hi ali1234 - didn't see you there :p
[19:09] <knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
[19:09] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 16 19:09:39 2014 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[19:09] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[19:09] <jjfrv8> o/
[19:09] <knome> !team | meeting time
[19:10] <lderan> Hello
[19:10] <knome> #topic Items carried on
[19:10] <knome> #subtopic Open action items
[19:10] <knome> #action ali1234 follows up on gtk3 indicator status 
[19:10] <meetingology> ACTION: ali1234 follows up on gtk3 indicator status
[19:10] <knome> isn't that all done now?
[19:10] <ali1234> not as far as i know
[19:10] <knome> aha, so what are we missing?
[19:11] <ali1234> well we're missing indicators that work at all in trusty
[19:11] <ali1234> the upstart stuff is still a blocker
[19:11] <ali1234> this affects unity too of course
[19:11] <ali1234> it's up to them to fix it
[19:11] <knome> okay
[19:11] <knome> then let's carry on with that
[19:11] <ali1234> afaik nothing has changed with that since last time
[19:12] <knome> ok
[19:12] <knome> #action elfy and knome/ochosi to discuss lightlocker testing - perhaps include old post install testing in that 
[19:12] <meetingology> ACTION: elfy and knome/ochosi to discuss lightlocker testing - perhaps include old post install testing in that
[19:12] <ali1234> we have all our ducks in a row afaik
[19:12] <knome> tbd
[19:12] <knome> elfy did discuss the future of -testers with me
[19:12] <knome> #info for now, we will keep -testers, but make the members expire every 6 months unless they extend their membership manually
[19:13] <knome> #action ochosi and knome to come up with more testing stuff later (within a week)
[19:13] <meetingology> ACTION: ochosi and knome to come up with more testing stuff later (within a week)
[19:13] <knome> well, ochosi did
[19:13] <knome> but let's carry on, we will still prepare even more stuff
[19:13] <knome> #action knome to be in touch with people re Tech Lead position 
[19:13] <meetingology> ACTION: knome to be in touch with people re Tech Lead position
[19:13] <knome> tbd
[19:13] <knome> ....aaaand i've got the session fix uploaded
[19:13] <knome> #action ochosi to follow up on xfce 4.12 release with nick and report back 
[19:13] <meetingology> ACTION: ochosi to follow up on xfce 4.12 release with nick and report back
[19:13] <elfy> yep - ty knome 
[19:14] <knome> ochosi doesn't seem to be around, so carrying that
[19:14] <knome> #topic Team updates
[19:14] <knome> please use #info and #action as appropriate
[19:14] <elfy> you want mine
[19:14] <knome> (and you're free to go!)
[19:14] <elfy> #info Called for Xubuntu Application package tests this week
[19:14] <elfy> #info Preparing call for Alpha 2 for next week
[19:14] <elfy> #info Calls have been going out to xubuntu-testers for most of the cycle
[19:15] <elfy> #info Have been noticing new names on the package tracker reports - so one of the calls is working - perhaps it's that call
[19:15] <elfy> #info 32bit image tests in the last 7 days = 9 ; 64bit same period = 3
[19:15] <elfy> #info package testing 'appear's to receive more constant testing
[19:15] <elfy> #info package testing 'appear's to receive more constant testing
[19:15] <elfy> #info xubuntu-qa checking/improving/fixing testcases for each package call prior to call
[19:15] <elfy> #action Xubuntu-QA - what is blocking https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+bug/1256898 , contact team where necessary
[19:15] <meetingology> ACTION: Xubuntu-QA - what is blocking https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+bug/1256898 , contact team where necessary
[19:15] <elfy> done
[19:16] <jjfrv8> #info knome helped jjfrv8 update blueprint for t-docs
[19:16] <jjfrv8> #info knome sent a call to the ML for doc contributors
[19:16] <knome> #info knome helped ochosi updated blueprint for t-features
[19:16] <knome> -d
[19:16] <knome> :P
[19:16] <jjfrv8> #info knome volunteered to look into the graphics problem with bug 1207493
[19:16] <jjfrv8> done
[19:17] <knome> #info knome has worked with improving the website, and we're getting nearer to release
[19:17] <elfy> #action  knome to look into the graphics problem with bug 1207493
[19:17] <meetingology> ACTION: knome to look into the graphics problem with bug 1207493
[19:17] <knome> #info knome updated the website content a bit
[19:17] <knome> i've put that on my todo for today
[19:18] <knome> anything else?
[19:18] <elfy> not here
[19:19] <jjfrv8> me neither
[19:19] <elfy> aah
[19:19] <knome> i know ochosi did things, but since he's not here, let's let him do the updates later
[19:19] <lderan> #info we have the first autopilot test for xubuntu merged
[19:19] <knome> oh yay
[19:20] <elfy> knome: A2 due next week - I suspect we'll get a mail from Kate, if it looks like I've not seen it can you answer - not sure what time I'm about early next week
[19:20] <knome> #info ochosi and bluesabre worked on the lightdm-gtk-greeter
[19:20] <elfy> lderan: sorry forgot that :(
[19:20] <knome> elfy, iirc, kate hasn't signed up for that release task, but yep, somebody will be in touch with us
[19:20] <elfy> ta
[19:20] <lderan> elfy, its okay :)
[19:21] <elfy> #action xubuntu-qa to update list of apps we can work autopilot with
[19:21] <meetingology> ACTION: xubuntu-qa to update list of apps we can work autopilot with
[19:21] <elfy> knome: how do you undo?
[19:21] <knome> #undo
[19:21] <meetingology> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x1a406d0>
[19:21] <elfy> #action lderan to update list of apps we can work autopilot with
[19:21] <meetingology> ACTION: lderan to update list of apps we can work autopilot with
[19:21] <knome> heh ;)
[19:21] <elfy> knome: ta :)
[19:21] <knome> np
[19:22] <knome> #topic Announcements
[19:22] <knome> nothing from me
[19:22] <knome> well,
[19:22] <knome> #info A2 next week
[19:22] <knome> that's it
[19:22] <knome> anything else?
[19:23] <elfy> nope
[19:23] <jjfrv8> nah
[19:23] <knome> #topic New and emerging items
[19:23] <knome> #subtopic Enabling more people to push to Xubuntu branches
[19:23] <knome> #info Carrying on, right people aren't around
[19:23] <knome> #subtopic Social media outlet interaction
[19:23] <knome> #info Carrying on, right people aren't around
[19:23] <knome> #subtopic Status of Bluetooth in Xubuntu
[19:23] <knome> yes, you guessed it:
[19:23] <knome> #info Carrying on, right people aren't around
[19:24] <knome> #subtopic Discuss documentation translations 
[19:24] <knome> there's a few things i want to discuss about, but we might want to have *more* people around
[19:24] <knome> anyway:
[19:24] <knome> what's our translation cut-off pergentage?
[19:25] <knome> eg. if a language is translated less than n%, it's not included; what should n be?
[19:25] <ali1234> depends on the language
[19:25] <jjfrv8> fraid I don't have an informed opinion
[19:25] <knome> ali1234, in which way would it depend on the language?
[19:25] <ali1234> like en_GB could be 1% done and still completely fine
[19:26] <ali1234> since 99% of strings probably don't need any translation in that case
[19:26] <knome> en_GB users could be able to read en_US to being with
[19:26] <ali1234> exactly
[19:26] <knome> (so why ship the 1% translation?)
[19:27] <ali1234> because the 1% might include every single string that actually is different
[19:27] <ali1234> ie it can be 1% done according to metrics and 100% done in reality
[19:27] <ali1234> this is a corner case anyway :)
[19:27] <knome> we're getting into translation technicalities, but in that case, the 99% should be translated with exactly the same strings
[19:28] <knome> but yes, we need more people to discuss that one
[19:28] <knome> another question
[19:28] <elfy> wouldn't this discussion be better served with some data/numbers
[19:28] <knome> do we want to automatically guess the users language, or would we be fine with just showing an english startpage with a list of languages the documentation is shipped in
[19:28] <knome> elfy, what kind of numbers?
[19:29] <elfy> % of translation in languages now
[19:29] <knome> some data: 80% seems to be a relatively standard cut-off
[19:29] <knome> finnish 100%
[19:30] <knome> occitan 17%
[19:30] <elfy> automatically guessing is ok - but assumes that the user is using the language we guess at
[19:30] <knome> russian 84%
[19:30] <knome> spanish 50%
[19:30] <knome> portugues 50%
[19:30] <knome> err
[19:30] <knome> 100% :P
[19:30] <elfy> lol
[19:30] <knome> i don't know how that helps in deciding though
[19:31] <elfy> :)
[19:31] <knome> the cut-off percentage is something the translators should *aim* at
[19:31] <knome> and we still have time to tell them what it is
[19:31] <knome> and they still have time to reach that
[19:31] <ali1234> i think it also depends which 50% is translated
[19:31] <elfy> because without some data - all we're going to do is flail about guessing 
[19:32] <elfy> how would we "or would we be fine with just showing an english startpage with a list of languages the documentation is shipped in"
[19:32] <knome> since it will be an automated process, we can't decide on "what is translated"
[19:32] <knome> elfy, that's actually the easier way...
[19:32] <elfy> then it's going to always be a guess - so why not just do what others do
[19:32] <knome> i don't know what others do :)
[19:32] <knome> with the list, it's not a guess
[19:32] <elfy> if someone wants it in Occitan - then point them to how
[19:33] <knome> the user can either go to the english or occitan language
[19:33] <knome> re: data or not,
[19:33] <elfy> I'm talking about the other 83%
[19:33] <elfy> knome> some data: 80% seems to be a relatively standard cut-off
[19:33] <elfy> so why not just do what others do
[19:33] <knome> i don't think it should matter if we have data or not...
[19:34] <elfy> ^^
[19:34] <knome> if we get say 10 more languages in by lowering the cut-off % to 10, what does that matter if they are only 10% translated
[19:34] <knome> because that's really little
[19:34] <knome> otoh requiring 100% is a bit... too tight :)
[19:34] <knome> yeah, i'm fine with 80%
[19:34] <elfy> yep
[19:34] <knome> the other option is anything > 0%
[19:35] <knome> the other relatively meaningful
[19:35] <ali1234> shipping the incomplete translations might encourage people to work on them
[19:35] <knome> we're not moderating the translations though...
[19:35] <knome> so allowing 1% translations might give us some unwanted results, like spam
[19:36] <knome> if nobody happened to look at the translations
[19:36] <ali1234> yeah there's that too
[19:36] <knome> so it does encourage to pump up the percentage
[19:36] <knome> 10-20% starts to be quite a lot to translate without being serious
[19:36] <knome> (75-150 strings)
[19:36] <ali1234> how easy is it for people to get the not-shipped translations?
[19:37] <elfy> how about finding the % translated for those over 60% then looking at those first
[19:37] <knome> elfy, looking in what sense? moderating?
[19:37] <knome> elfy, or including?
[19:37] <elfy> including
[19:38] <knome> ali1234, it's possible, but the regular user who needs the translation in his own language probably won't be able to do that very easilt
[19:38] <knome> *easily
[19:38] <elfy> surpised that spanish is 50% 
[19:38] <knome> ali1234, and then there's actually building the translation with the .po file....
[19:40] <knome> elfy, so, are you suggesting 60% as the cut-off percent?
[19:41] <knome> elfy, or, suggesting that nearer to the end of the cycle, see if 60% would make sense?
[19:41] <elfy> the second 
[19:41] <knome> okay
[19:41] <knome> #info elfy suggests considering 60%
[19:41] <knome> #undo
[19:41] <meetingology> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x17f4c10>
[19:42] <knome> #info elfy suggests considering 60% as the translations cut-off percentage
[19:42] <knome> those are/were the two biggest questions i had
[19:42] <elfy> but it is just a guess - based on 50% Spanish surprising me 
[19:42] <knome> lol
[19:42] <knome> #subtopic Schedule next meeting 
[19:42] <GridCube> :/ im sorry abuot that
[19:42] <knome> so A2 is next week
[19:42] <knome> do we want to move the meeting for wed?
[19:42] <elfy> GridCube: lol 
[19:43] <elfy> knome: ok with me
[19:43] <knome> or even tue?
[19:43] <jjfrv8> either is okay with me
[19:43] <knome> i guess that wouldn't make much sense actually
[19:43] <elfy> I'm good with any day at this time - just not much time here between now and Tues/Wed
[19:43] <knome> we should even make it well before the freeze, or then just thu
[19:44] <elfy> then stay with Thursday - and make the one before the next milestone more about B1 perhaps
[19:44] <knome> iirc, the freeze for A1 was moved to mon/tue/wed
[19:44] <knome> but can't remember which
[19:45] <knome> #info Next meeting: Thu, Jan 23 at 19UTC
[19:45] <knome> #endmeeting
[19:45] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 16 19:45:32 2014 UTC.  
[19:45] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2014/xubuntu-devel.2014-01-16-19.09.moin.txt
[19:45] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2014/xubuntu-devel.2014-01-16-19.09.html
[19:45] <lderan> \o/
[19:45] <knome> thanks
[19:45] <knome> bbl
[19:45] <elfy> cya
[19:48] <brainwash> so we got a working replacement for gnome-system-tools aka users-admin aka "users and groups"?
[19:48] <brainwash> the new gnome version depends on the gnome settings manager and does not allow to configure groups
[19:49] <elfy> in what way configure?
[19:49] <brainwash> and can anyone confirm that bug 1016932 is still around? 13.10/14.04
[19:50] <brainwash> elfy: kicking users out of groups, or create new groups
[19:50] <brainwash> this stuff
[19:50] <brainwash> configure like in "manage"
[19:50] <elfy> I can move people in and out of groups ok here 
[19:51] <elfy> not tried to create new ones
[19:51] <brainwash> nono, xubuntu still ships the old gnome version
[19:51] <brainwash> which is not maintained anymore
[19:51] <elfy> oh right
[19:52] <brainwash> the new version is crippled and required the gnome settings manager
[19:52] <brainwash> requires
[19:52] <brainwash> not an option for us
[19:54] <brainwash> mate-users-admin could be one
[19:54] <ali1234> "whatever ubuntu uses" since they are forking all that stuff
[19:54] <elfy> no idea I'm afraid
[19:54] <brainwash> it's basically the same application
[19:54] <brainwash> but maintained I guess
[19:55] <brainwash> and the mate desktop environment will be available in the ubuntu repos starting with 14.04 I think
[19:57] <ali1234> https://github.com/mate-desktop/mate-system-tools/pull/7
[19:57] <elfy> night
[19:58] <brainwash> looks promising
[20:01] <brainwash> "The MATE user admin program (mate-users-admin), when setting a user’s type to “Administrative”, does not add the user to the “sudo” group. The workaround is to explicitly add the user to the sudo group."
[20:01] <brainwash> :/
[20:01] <brainwash> no one cares to fix this
[20:25] <knome> there's a new tool pretty much ready
[20:25] <knome> but it's still hidden.
[20:38] <Unit193> knome: In theory not hard at all, but I've stayed very far away from the fake-pae stuff.  I like the docs landing page idea as well.
[20:39] <knome> Unit193, do you have time now to mull over the docs stuff?
[20:45] <Unit193> I'm going to be making coffee, but otherwise..
[20:45]  * genii sips
[20:46] <knome> Unit193, well i can wait for you to come back :P
[20:46] <Unit193> Alrighty-o.
[20:46] <Unit193> Shoot
[20:49] <knome> well, the translation stuff
[20:49] <knome> and packaging
[20:49] <knome> and modifying the startpage
[20:53] <Unit193> OK, so the startpage is something I Just tossed up to have links.  Packaging wouldn't be too hard for the second method, already did that one, and translations are easy.
[20:54] <knome> how would you show the links?
[20:54] <knome> full language names?
[20:54] <knome> language codes?
[20:54] <knome> on the start-start page, or a subpage for that?
[20:55] <Unit193> 1. No idea.  2. If so, of course translated.  3. Could do, or flags. :P  4. Why subpage?
[20:56] <knome> noooo flaaaaags
[20:56] <Unit193> :D
[21:02] <Unit193> OK, changed my script to add them if they are above 80% complete now.
[21:03] <knome> okay
[21:03] <knome> did you have a ppa or something for that package?
[21:04] <Unit193> Nope.
[21:04] <knome> even the "something"?
[21:04] <Unit193> Thought something = repo, but I have it uploaded.  Recreating it now, just a sec (fresh translations.)
[21:05] <knome> oki
[21:06] <Unit193> https://unit193.net/xubuntu-docs_14.04.0_all.deb
[21:08] <brainwash> knome: new secret user/group management tool? does that mean that we can ignore all the issues in gnome-system-tools?
[21:08] <knome> means we shouldn't worry about fixing them right now
[21:09] <brainwash> ok
[21:09] <knome> and it's not really secret-secret, it's just not public yet either
[21:09] <knome> it's written by someone in #xfce-dev, and i'm really interested to see it
[21:09] <brainwash> me too
[21:18] <Unit193> knome: For online use, I move desktop-guide/ to en_US/ :P
[21:20] <knome> mhm
[21:21] <knome> i guess that's my only semi-problem
[21:21] <knome> if we want to build all the translations with the same code, they will either each need to have the same includes (stupid) or link to the same relative path
[21:26] <Unit193> It's doing the second now.
[21:30] <knome> yep, but can't do that with the branch in trunk
[21:31] <Unit193> You can't?
[21:31] <Unit193> I pushed some make changes didn't I?
[21:32] <knome> oh, then it probably can ;)
[21:32] <knome> did i merge them yet?
[21:32] <Unit193> Those were so the docs knew where the 'libs' where, but also made it so the languages share.
[21:32] <knome> mhm
[21:32] <knome> good
[21:33] <Unit193> Meh, wrong 'where'
[21:34] <knome> ;)
[21:42] <jjfrv8> knome, pushed an MP with correction for the slideshow bug 1213933. Marked you as reviewer per your request.
[21:42] <jjfrv8> this is just in case lderan doesn't come up with a more elegant solution
[21:43] <lderan> going to look at it over the weekend :)
[21:43] <jjfrv8> cool
[22:25] <knome> i'm off from desktop for today, but i will probably pop back in with the laptop later
[22:25] <knome> jjfrv8, i'll look at that today or tomorrow, thanks
[22:51] <knome> hrm, either the xfce4 powerman patches aren't working correctly or there is something else wrong in my setup
[22:54] <brainwash> knome: what doesn't work?
[22:54] <knome> hmm, everything seems to work now
[22:54] <brainwash> magic?
[22:54] <knome> unless i can be sure it's related to the patch, i won't tell you :P
[22:55] <knome> nah, some weird locale stuff
[22:55] <knome> i always seem to have problems with locales, and that might have been the root cause for my other issue as well
[22:56] <ochosi> knome: sorry i missed the meeting, wasn't possible to be here
[22:56] <ochosi> will read the backlog though
[22:56] <knome> that happens
[22:56] <ochosi> and thanks for the xfce-logo
[22:57] <knome> especially when we're talking about you
[22:57] <knome> ;P
[22:57] <ochosi> i've already converted it
[22:57] <knome> converted?
[22:57] <ochosi> and i'll push it later, together with the fixed ubuntu icon
[22:57] <knome> didn't you want an svg
[22:57] <ochosi> yeah, you need to use a certain bg-color for symbolic icons
[22:57] <ochosi> so "converted" is probably a bit much for what i've done :p
[22:57] <knome> if you had told me...
[22:58] <knome> if you can wait 5mins, i'll put up the meeting minutes
[22:58] <knome> (if you can't, i'll postpone that)
[23:01] <knome> i'm also waiting for your reply :P
[23:03] <brainwash> does noskcaj avoid joining this channel lately? :D 
[23:04] <knome> you would have to ask him
[23:04] <knome> haven't seen him around much lately anyway, so maybe he's just busy though
[23:05] <brainwash> I want him to sru his patched power manager package
[23:05] <knome> fwiw, there is no reason why you couldn't manage the SRU
[23:05] <brainwash> because the debian maintainer won't add the missing systemd patches soon-ish
[23:06] <brainwash> not quite sure how to handle the debdiff/changelog stuff
[23:08] <ochosi> knome: i'll be around in a few minutes
[23:08] <knome> okay, i'll set up the meeting minutes in a sec then
[23:09] <brainwash> so I'm waiting for him to tell me, if he is now in the mood to release the patched package + SRU
[23:09] <knome> brainwash, that's a skill you can learn
[23:10] <brainwash> learning by doing
[23:11] <pleia2> sorry for missing the meeting, still recovering from cold+jetlag schedule
[23:12] <knome> pleia2, that's also ok
[23:12] <knome> pleia2, you are more forgiven than simon is
[23:12] <knome> the minutes are up for you who want to read them
[23:13] <pleia2> thanks :)
[23:13] <brainwash> I missed the first half, because my nick is not in the highlight list :(
[23:13] <brainwash> please add it :D
[23:14] <ochosi> knome: thanks, will read them in a bit
[23:15] <knome> updated the monthly updates
[23:15] <knome> brainwash, you are not in the team
[23:16] <brainwash> ok, it's a team meeting after all
[23:17] <ochosi> thanks for the minutes, went through them now
[23:17] <knome> well, community meeting; the highlight is to have as many team members around as possible
[23:17] <ochosi> i did lightdm-gtk-greeter theming, light-locker is pretty UI-less
[23:17] <knome> ochosi, you can add them to the team report
[23:18] <knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/TeamReports/14/January
[23:18] <knome> pleia2, how well are you feeling?
[23:18] <pleia2> knome: well enough to do Work work
[23:18] <knome> so do you have time for a PM then?
[23:18] <pleia2> hehe
[23:19] <knome> or we can do it here but that's just flooding the channel :P
[23:27] <knome> fyi, http://xubuntu.org/products/ is live
[23:28] <pleia2> \o/
[23:49] <ochosi> brainwash: could you try whether renaming the lubuntu badge to lxde works?
[23:52] <ochosi> pleia2, knome: if you got time to quickly talk a few things wrt wallpaper contest, lemme know
[23:52] <knome> i do
[23:55] <Unit193> I forgotted to add it earlier: http://goo.gl/2xntc3
[23:55] <knome> haha, still faster than any of us ;)
[23:55] <Unit193> Scripted. :P
[23:55] <knome> ...still
[23:55] <Unit193> (Well, almost.)
[23:56] <Unit193> knome: That's because, if it's not on the calendar, it's not happening in my memory. :D
[23:56] <knome> ;)
[23:57] <knome> i try to not get that depending on calendars
[23:57] <knome> but lately i've noticed i have to put some things down
[23:58] <ochosi> knome: we could accept the last round of wallpapers then