[10:17] <rmg51> Morning
[11:31] <JonathanD> mornign.
[13:00] <teddy-dbear> Morning peoples, dogs, turkeys, hamsters and everything else
[14:05] <ChinnoDog> morning
[14:59] <MutantTurkey> mornin turkeys
[14:59] <MutantTurkey> or dogs
[15:00] <MutantTurkey> I'm havin major trouble getting in to work _before_ 10
[15:02] <MutantTurkey> esp since school starts wed and i have to be up at 7 to bike to class
[15:10] <lazypower> Morning everyone
[15:55] <MutantTurkey> morn
[15:56] <MutantTurkey> hopefully my karma hits 4,000 before feburary
[18:03] <waltman> MutantTurkey: I think part of your problem today was not realizing it's a holiday. :)
[19:02] <MutantTurkey> waltman: it's a holiday set up by the government to give everyone the day off, but personally i am still working because i have stuff to finish.
[19:04] <MutantTurkey> weirdly virginia had a comibnation "Lee-Jackson-King day, which is kind of ironic, Robert E Lee, Stonewall Jackson, and the MLK jr
[19:04] <MutantTurkey> buncha crazy hicks!
[19:05] <penth> It was the only way they could get the MLK holiday approved when they took the vote. As opposed to Arizona, which refused to recognize it and then the governor vetoed the bill after it finally passed
[19:06] <penth> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrFOb_f7ubw
[19:12] <MutantTurkey> nice
[19:15]  * waltman experiences the joy of dealing with a student with one of the best grades in the class whining about why he lost a few points on his labs.
[19:15]  * waltman backed up his TAs
[19:17] <penth> It's always the perfect ones...
[19:18] <waltman> The TAs docked him a few points for using his private instance variables directly instead of using accessor methods.
[19:18] <penth> I can deal with the ones who say "what was the bug there" or "how did I get that wrong" rather than just trying to claim the points back
[19:18] <waltman> he was like "the assignment didn't say to do this so why did I lost points?"
[19:19] <penth> Yeah, code hygiene is important in java . That's why I don't use it
[19:19] <waltman> and I was like "well, you were given 4 classes and asked to write a 5th, maybe you should've followed their model"
[19:24] <MutantTurkey> god I hate java. I hate that the first programming class at most universities is focused on stupid crap like OOP and proper data hiding
[19:26]  * penth prefers GSD languages
[19:27] <MutantTurkey> 'get stuff done'?
[19:27] <penth> si
[19:27] <MutantTurkey> so python?
[19:27] <penth> python's fine once you adjust to the java-like left edge slice indexing
[19:27] <MutantTurkey> i think something that is strictly typed,  memory safe and more like classic C (nothing confising like mutability and iterators)
[19:27] <MutantTurkey> maybe that's rust?
[19:28] <MutantTurkey> i think before you get into all sorts of pythonic stuff, you should understand now basic flow control does, for loops, while loops... idk
[19:28] <penth> well, I still have that from my highschool pascal classes :)
[19:29] <penth> I'm not saying college courses should be taught in python; I'm just saying that I like languages that are leaner and quicker than java
[19:30] <MutantTurkey> sure
[19:30] <MutantTurkey> i wouldn't ever go to java to solve a problem
[19:31] <waltman> MutantTurkey: There's certainly plenty of stupid crap in Java, but I'm not sure I'd include OOP and proper data hiding among them. :)
[19:33] <penth> It's the off-by-one stuff that gets me in python, like "Penth"[0:2] producing 'Pe' rather than 'Pen'
[19:34] <penth> and apparently Guido decided to inherit that from Java rather than using inclusive indexing like perl's
[19:43] <MutantTurkey> waltman: i think there should be more of a focus on flow control and logic rather than ins and outs of a specific language
[19:43] <MutantTurkey> penth: yeah i always have to lookup, is it [:num] or [num:] and then negatives any yeesh!
[19:45] <penth> I think perl never caught on in academia because of TMTOWTGI (s/Do/Grade/)
[19:45] <MutantTurkey> 3same with python...
[19:46] <MutantTurkey> iterating, using it's functional builtins like filters, comprehensions
[19:47] <penth> But of course there's also the 'how many (types of) jobs will this language get me' thing. Until go is ready for 1.0, java's the thing for ANdroid, not just the corporate world
[21:02] <waltman> penth: that off-by-one crap is particularly annoying in numpy, since otherwise it's quite similar to matlab (which is inclusive)
[21:03] <waltman> MutantTurkey: just because you don't use OOP doesn't mean it's not important :)
[21:03] <MutantTurkey> i think it is important, i do sometimes us it
[21:04] <waltman> in fact, if you make it out to West tonight you can see a fun thing I did with c++ classes :)
[21:04] <MutantTurkey> but i think there are more important things whnen people  are struggling to understand the very basics
[21:04] <MutantTurkey> tonight i wil be happily eating indian food in ambler
[21:04] <MutantTurkey> away from any C++ nonense
[21:06]  * waltman notes that all the money to be made in programming these days is in mobile app dev, which is nearly exclusively done in OOPy language (java and objc).