=== Guest47292 is now known as jrib === slickymaster is now known as slickyma1ter === knome is now known as slickymaster === slickymaster is now known as knome === slickyma1ter is now known as slickymaster === slickymaster is now known as slickyma1ter === slickyma1ter is now known as slickymaster === slickymaster_ is now known as slickymaster [15:24] hello all [15:24] can i ask a wiki related question here? [15:26] yep [15:29] how do i redirect a wiki page to another? [15:29] what tag do i use? [15:32] #REDIRECT NewPageName [15:32] that should work... [15:32] if not: [15:32] #REFRESH 0 NewPageName [15:33] thank you very much [15:33] trying that [15:37] knome: it is taking me https://wiki.ubuntu.com/0 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewPageName instead NewPageName directly [15:38] hmm... what's the page you're trying to redirect? [15:39] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ekushey to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Russell [15:39] i'm noob at wiki stuff... [15:39] Ekushey, fixed it. [15:40] wait, i didn't, or there's some caching [15:40] i would imagine caching [15:41] cleared my browser cache, still seeing the same thing [15:41] what did i do wrong, knome? [15:41] i've no idea :) [15:42] i'm looking into it [15:42] thanks :) [15:44] looks like server-side cache [15:44] something like that [15:44] are you with the wiki team, or the docu team knome? [15:44] i'm doing stuff here and there [15:45] my main work is done with xubuntu, of which i'm the project lead at the moment [15:46] wow! it's an honour to talk to you then :) [15:47] heh, you're welcome ;) [15:47] :) [15:47] humph, i deleted the page and i'm still redirected [15:48] Ekushey, which one did you try first? redirect or refresh? [15:50] refresh [15:50] brb knome, we're having a meeting on #ubuntu-bd [16:59] i'm back, knome. looks like all the same... [17:00] is it possible to delete the page and create again? [17:13] Ekushey: You should be able to revert the page yourself and then try again. Go to: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ekushey?action=info [17:14] ok dsmythies trying that [17:18] Ekushey: Hmmm... Looks as though someone did delete it. [17:23] somehow I did not see knone's comment that he deleted it. I was still getting redirected until a few minutes ago. [18:55] dsmythies, looks like some server side cache maybe :/ [21:54] meeting in a few minutes, we'll have it here because #ubuntu-meeting is busy [21:54] meetingology has joined us for the day :) [21:54] pleia2: Error: "has" is not a valid command. [21:56] haha! [21:56] For what? [21:56] yay for not having to chair a meeting <3 [21:57] Ah. [21:59] yeah, who wants to chair? :) [22:00] a resounding echo [22:00] #startmeeting Documentation Team [22:00] Meeting started Thu Feb 6 22:00:32 2014 UTC. The chair is pleia2. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [22:00] Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired [22:00] * belkinsa is here for the meeting [22:00] pleia2's on top of things today! :-) [22:01] #chair knome dsmythies godbyk bkerensa [22:01] Current chairs: bkerensa dsmythies godbyk knome pleia2 [22:01] in case I get pulled away re: work :) [22:01] we have an agenda! [22:01] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda [22:01] pleia2, sorry, i was following the other meeting... [22:01] oh I happen to be in my office so looks like I'm in attendance [22:01] :D [22:02] #topic Ubuntu Classroom Sessions scheduling [22:02] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Classroom [22:02] so we have topics decided, we just need to select a day [22:02] I can do the Serverguide classroom session. Sorry, I didn't notice before (or forgot) that I was supposed to sign up. [22:02] thanks dsmythies [22:03] we want to do this at a time when telling people this stuff is still useful for the team if they want to join, so before any kind of freezes [22:03] late february? march? weekday or weekend? [22:03] Weekend works the best for me. [22:04] The sooner the better, weekday or wekend O.K. for me. [22:04] Though the week of March 17-23 is free for me. [22:04] * pleia2 pulls up a calendar [22:04] I'm usually available except for Tuesdays and Fridays. [22:04] I'm out of town that week, maybe the week before? [22:04] or maybe March 1 or 2? [22:05] Sure, but MWF works the best for me. [22:05] that's saturday and sunday [22:05] Sunday, March 2nd would be best for me [22:05] That works. [22:05] Either day. [22:05] (I try to take off on Saturdays :)) [22:05] I don't have anything scheduled for March 1 or 2 yet. [22:05] Sunday March 2nd O.K. for me. [22:06] ok, I'll firm up with the other instructors [22:06] #decided March 2nd for Documentation Day Classroom sessions [22:06] We really need people to review docs against 14.04 computers. Should there be a classroom session on how to create and use a virtual computer for this purpose? [22:06] (is that a thing on this bot?) [22:06] dsmythies: I was thinking that would be covered in godbyk's session [22:06] O.K. [22:07] but if we don't think there is enough time, we can do a general "creating a VM for all docs" session [22:07] pleia2: try 'agreed' [22:07] godbyk: ah :) thanks [22:07] #agreed March 2nd for Documentation Day Classroom sessions [22:08] #topic Progress on Desktop Docs GNOME documentation sync [22:08] I know there's been a fair amount of discussion on this topic (whether we're even doing it) [22:09] I will let godbyk start off since he is doing the syncing [22:09] I added this, mostly because I would like to know when it's ok for me to say "ok people, go review docs and submit bugs about grammar+functionality" [22:09] I'll take a look at syncing everything this weekend. [22:09] Whatever we will decide about the syncing, I think that anybody can start reviewing and correcting the present state of the docs right now. [22:09] In my opinion, we are ready for 14.04 docs review now. [22:09] However, does anyone know fo some any doc pages that should be put on hold, due to pending changes that would/could make the page obsolete? [22:10] I don't think it'll take me too long—especially since I can strip out the conditionals now. [22:10] GunnarHj: exactly [22:10] there is no reason that spelling and grammar fixes should not be throughout the entire cycle [22:10] dsmythies: I have no idea what changes are coming in 14.04. Have we found good sources for that info yet? [22:10] bkerensa: well if the entire page is going to be replaced with a synced version, eek [22:10] I don't want to waste peoples time [22:11] I don't know either [22:11] godbyk: There are lots of things coming... Some of this is identifiable from watching the package changes in ubuntu-desk [22:11] others we would need to ping the ubuntu-desktop team [22:11] fwiw last cycle nobody was very helpful [22:11] bkerensa: have you been keeping an eye on that? [22:11] nobody on the desktop or unity teams [22:11] package changes == reading changelog? [22:11] Actually I don't think there are a lot of things that affect the docs. [22:12] pleia2: I have not ideally this is something we need desktop team to do [22:12] bkerensa: but they won't, we need to get past this and stop complaining about it [22:12] For a while, I subscribed to the changes lists for packages, but there was entirely too much traffic for me to manage. It was like drinking from a fire hose. [22:12] GunnarHj: yeah, as an LTS I was hoping not a ton of innovative things were happening :) [22:12] pleia2: so ultimately they provide the info to release team [22:12] so they are doing it [22:12] they just are not shattering it with us [22:12] sharing* [22:12] bkerensa: Just not very early though, right? [22:13] bkerensa: they get this to the release team at day zero [22:13] because the info ends up in the release notes [22:13] yes [22:13] not early enough for us [22:13] but they work on it weeks before [22:13] usually a month before release [22:13] I think we can simply check out whether the current state of the docs is still applicable by comparing it with an updated 14.04. [22:13] sure [22:13] but we will need to break down areas by components maybe [22:13] and delegate reviewing components to certain people [22:14] and hope that no last minute changes happen [22:14] worst case scenario if a last minute change lands after freeze we can SRU [22:14] or get a string freeze exception [22:14] let's cross that bridge when we get to it :) [22:14] Yeah, breaking it down and divide responsibilites is a good thought. [22:14] I know you're frustrated after last cycle, but we need to try to be practical [22:15] I was just hoping to not waste time is all. [22:15] dsmythies: +1 [22:15] * pleia2 nods [22:15] it's an LTS, there shouldn't be any last minute surprises [22:16] pleia2: famous last words. ;-) [22:16] LOL [22:16] pleia2: Right. (They are all busy with the phone anyway.) [22:16] godbyk: yeah, but historically it actually has been accurate :) [22:16] GunnarHj: heh, there is that [22:16] ok, too much bitterness in this meeting so far ;) [22:17] so, should I start telling people to review the docs? [22:17] belkinsa, ping me when it's your turn on the other meeting :D [22:17] or wait until after the weekend and godbyk looks at things [22:17] knome, sure. [22:17] pleia2: Indeed you should. [22:17] did we agree then, conditionals can come out (and already are, actually, and look and feel can deviate [22:17] I agree reviewing it now is probably good [22:17] There is so much to be reviewed [22:17] dsmythies: I'm for removing the conditionals so we have one less potential issue to trip over. [22:17] ok cool, Documentation is one of my 5 tasks I'm talking about at an Ubucon later this month and I have a blog post on the topic to write ;) [22:18] godbyk: Wouldn't that break things for UbuntuGNOME? [22:18] * bkerensa looks forward to hearing the talk at Ubucon [22:19] I don't know what Ubuntu GNOME does about docs, but this would be the ubuntu documentation package [22:19] GunnarHj: The GNOME docs are an entirely separate set of files on Ubuntu. So our changes to ubuntu-docs won't impact GNOME docs at all. [22:19] yeah, that [22:20] ok, anything else on this topic? [22:20] godbyk: Are you sure that UbuntuGNOME refers to the GNOME docs? After all it's an Ubuntu flavour. [22:20] GunnarHj: Yep. We've tested it before. [22:20] #action godbyk to look at gnome sync this weekend, conditionals will be/are removed [22:20] ACTION: godbyk to look at gnome sync this weekend, conditionals will be/are removed [22:20] Gunnar: Yes. we tested [22:20] godbyk: Ok. [22:20] #agreed ok to recruit reviewers now [22:20] GunnarHj: If by 'UbuntuGNOME' you're referring to running GNOME shell under Ubuntu. [22:20] GunnarHj: If it's a separate distribution, then they're on their own. [22:21] Ubuntu GNOME is a flavor [22:21] (like Xubuntu) [22:21] I think, but am not sure, that it what I tested. [22:22] I would like to add an item to the agenda if we can squeeze it in that being Documentation Release Process [22:22] #topic Guidelines about wiki work [22:22] Gunnar: can we go off line and make sure we are talking about the same thing? [22:23] dsmythies: Sure, after the meeting? [22:23] O.K. [22:23] belkinsa & knome - all yours :) [22:23] I brought that item up on the agenda. [22:23] oh, GunnarHj! [22:23] sorry :) [22:24] hehe [22:24] But more people ought to be interested. ;-) [22:24] yeah, i just wanted to read it [22:24] The next item is mine though it might need to be only talked about and get used. [22:24] and comment [22:25] I'm just wondering how we will reach conclusions and actions with respect to those topics. [22:25] Thinking of discussions about tags and page deletion. [22:25] GunnarHj, do you have a clear summary of the current state of the discussion in mind? [22:25] or does it look like it's not clear what people want to do [22:26] I'm not that updated... [22:26] I admit, I kind of lost track of this discussion :( [22:26] right [22:26] As regards page deletion: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2013-December/018472.html [22:26] I think the same also. [22:27] i think there never was a clear conclusion to things [22:27] which is why we're still wondering :) [22:27] knome: Right. [22:27] i think the less tags we have, the better. [22:28] knome: Me too. [22:28] Agreed. [22:28] i don't mind if a tag is a bit off [22:28] at least people who care *look* at the page [22:28] Better fix than adding tags. [22:29] yep [22:29] Yeah [22:29] and about deleting pages... [22:29] Yes, but we need to find people that will fix the pages if the info is outdated. [22:29] i know some people *cough*pleia2*cough* disagree, but we should be braver in deleting [22:29] So might I say that I think its worth a thought to consider a migration to mediawiki next cycle to address outdated pages? [22:29] yeah I hate deleting :) [22:29] Mediawiki? [22:30] the software that wikipedia is powered by [22:30] bkerensa, how would a migration to another wiki software help with outdated pages? [22:30] bkerensa: have you spoken with IS about this? [22:30] I think the last thing we need is another migration [22:30] knome: They have a stale content tool [22:30] Wasn't eagles0513875_ talking about this a few months ago and a few meetings ago === slickyma1ter is now known as slickymaster_new [22:30] belkinsa: yeah [22:30] and how does that tool help us update the pages? [22:30] I think he was talking about an entirely new system [22:30] I indeed agree with knome that we should be braver as regards deleting. [22:31] knome: It gives a list of ones that are outdated [22:31] I don't think rehashing this is productive [22:31] without tagging [22:31] Yeah, I only see a easy to see comment thing for that system. [22:31] I can be ok with deleting stuff as long as we aren't too aggressive about it [22:31] bkerensa, without tagging, but with some more resource usage by mediawiki [22:31] we should make ever effort to redirect pages to proper documentation [22:31] Agreed. [22:31] There was an idea on the list with 'soft deleting', i.e. redirect to a special page. See the above link. [22:32] i don't think migrating software is a solution to our problem, really [22:32] the information page about deleted content is ++ [22:32] pleia2: but if the proper doc does not exist and we don't know content is outdated then how do we address that? [22:32] MoinMoin is lacking in identifying outdated content [22:33] Even in the new versions? [22:33] bkerensa: tagging works fine for us [22:33] 2.0 is supposed to be better [22:33] bkerensa, we don't have a software problem [22:33] knome: +1 [22:33] bkerensa: People identify outdated contents, software does not. [22:33] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2013-December/018490.html [22:33] fair enough [22:33] knome, +1 It's how we deal with the stuff. [22:33] ^ my comment on the "soft deletion" / "deletion information" page idea [22:34] knome: Yeah, I remember. [22:34] fwiw http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Category:Outdated_pages maintenance pages/stale content tools are win because if a page has not been updated in a release cycle it can be automagically listed [22:35] knome: so perhaps we do our best to redirect to a relevant page, and if not we go to a deleted page info page? [22:35] pleia2, exactly [22:35] pleia2: Right. [22:35] pleia2, which explains the reason (a tag), then at some point redirects the user to a "where do i go now?" -page [22:36] wfm [22:37] i'll need to work on the soft deletion page [22:37] #action knome to work on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DeletedPageDraft [22:37] ACTION: knome to work on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DeletedPageDraft [22:37] that's actually a POC! [22:37] go to that page [22:38] #agreed Do our best to redirect to a relevant page, and if not send people to DeletedPageDraft [22:38] and you'll be shown the reason why a page was deleted, then redirected to the front page [22:38] That works. [22:38] thanks knome :) [22:38] knome: ;-) [22:38] pleia2, ....which should have a better name than *Draft later === slickymaster_new is now known as slickymaster [22:38] knome: hah, right [22:38] GunnarHj: any more on this topic? [22:38] but sure, works for now [22:38] Nope. [22:38] umm, [22:38] tags? [22:38] ok cool, thanks for bringing it back up [22:38] are we content with the tags we have now? [22:39] or do people think we need to reconsider them? [22:39] tags now are good [22:39] oki [22:39] then i'm all good if pleia2 is content with the tags [22:39] Same. [22:40] +1 [22:40] #topic Guidelines about using prefixes in mailing-list [22:41] phew, not belkinsa's turn at the membership board meeting yet ;) [22:41] hehe [22:41] Okay, we have the three or four prefixes : [Wiki], [server], [desktop], right? [22:41] i think using prefixes is sane. [22:42] I like the prefixes, too. [22:42] helps me filter out my mail :) [22:42] I think they should be used to differate what we are talking about [22:42] just as long as it doesn't turn into an issue that we yell at people about for not doing [22:42] I think we need to make a wiki page or have this written down something and use it/ [22:43] https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc can be updated to explain the tags [22:43] +1 [22:43] belkinsa: +1 [22:43] I agree with prefixes (I just have to remember to use them) [22:43] so someone should draft up what each are, and email ubuntu-doc-owner@lists.ubuntu.com to update the list [22:43] pleia2: Good idea. [22:43] yep, no need to shout [22:44] I shall do this since it's my item that I brought up. [22:44] the basic idea is to be able to filter/moderate the amount of mail one needs to look at [22:44] #action belkinsa to draft up details of tags and email ubuntu-doc-owner@lists.ubuntu.com to update the list info [22:44] ACTION: belkinsa to draft up details of tags and email ubuntu-doc-owner@lists.ubuntu.com to update the list info [22:44] thanks belkinsa! [22:44] Not a problem. [22:44] if something isn't catched in the filter... well, we all get spam anyway. [22:44] my brain is bad at adding tags :) [22:44] heh [22:45] fortunately it's your fingers that type them ;) [22:45] Aye, no program can do prefixes yet. [22:45] #topic Documentation Release Process [22:45] bkerensa: all yours! [22:46] So ideally there seemed to be some confusion last cycle as to what the release processes are [22:46] and I just hoped to see if anyone godbyk or dsmythies had questions about that? [22:47] There were a couple of issues... [22:47] I'm applying for PPU for the ubuntu-doc package so ideally it won't be as troublesome to get the package uploaded since everyone is busy at that point and not much sponsoring occurs that late [22:47] bkerensa: Ah, that's good to hear. [22:48] first, the translators task list is based on the package and not the project. This cuased greif. So this cycle we need to update the package at doc freeze, otherwise translators complain. [22:48] yes [22:49] One thing I am also thinking is next cycle I might consider taking on more of just a release management role for docs if thats of interest [22:49] Is there a crib page on the wiki that walks someone through the release process? If not, it'd be great if we could create one. [22:49] that being handling our release/upload but also tracking our bugs to ensure we square away issues that will impact our users [22:50] Second: and in my opinion, there is a problem in launchpad, where it will back date stuff and it is really really confusing as to who did what when. [22:50] godbyk: there is a list of stuff to do on mailing list that jbicha left [22:50] and its basically that + packaging plus doing some tasks on LP that are not documented and as dsmythies points out is troublesome [22:50] bkerensa: Could you help me expand that and put it on the wiki? [22:50] dsmythies: back date? [22:50] The process for upload, as Benjamin knows, is unlcear to me, and remains so. [22:51] dsmythies: I think that could be easily straightened out. [22:51] dsmythies: so the process for uploading is that its packaged and a debdiff is generated [22:51] Gunner: I'll have to find and example, It is incredibly annoying. But no information is given as to who accpeted something or when, it gets backdated. [22:51] and a developer with upload rights then uploads it [22:52] Perhaps it's only my own ignorance, but I get the impression that a lot of the knowledge of the details of the release process are tucked away in a few people's heads and I'd like to get it written down somewhere public so someone else could go through the entire release process on their own if those knowledgeable people fall off the face of the planet. [22:52] I don't have upload rights for ubuntu-docs so in this case I have to nag a core dev [22:52] godbyk: +1 [22:52] yes, but the date can be be weeks ago. [22:52] ... wait I misssed a bunch of text... [22:52] I have PPU rights for a couple of packages. Can try to get it for ubuntu-docs as well. [22:53] godbyk: so the release precedes as far as getting the branch ready for packaging and upload are on the mailing list [22:53] gobdyk: There is an exact "how to be a doc committor for serverguide page. the same is needed for dektop. [22:53] GunnarHj: I think it would be great to have a couple folks on the team with PPU for docs [22:53] pleia2: Yeah.. And we should apparently document this somewhere. [22:53] indeed :) [22:54] +1 [22:54] godbyk: in regards to packaging and uploading it I think this is something that should be a pathway for devs [22:54] bkerensa: can you work with godbyk to document some of this process in public? [22:54] s/this process/the release process [22:54] pleia2: which part? [22:54] bkerensa: everything. :) [22:54] everything, it's currently scattered in mailing lists posts and brains [22:55] sure [22:55] Let's not reinvent the wheel now... [22:55] #action bkerensa to work with godbyk to document the release process [22:55] ACTION: bkerensa to work with godbyk to document the release process [22:55] in regards to the packaging bit I think we need to encourage people to follow the developer pathway [22:55] yeah, we can link to docs on that as needed [22:55] but I've been around for a while now, and I still don't have a high level view of how this magic happens [22:55] yes, everything. See: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Repository/Members-Serverguide [22:56] pleia2: You learn it by doing, basically. ;-) [22:56] bkerensa: I spent many many 10s of hours on it last cycle and got nowhere. [22:56] I'd say we start with an outline of everything that needs to be done, and then expand from there [22:56] i think it would make sense if there was somebody assigned per cycle to make sure (with other documentation 'leaders') doc strings are in .pots on docstringfreeze and later, (help) upload packages [22:56] dsmythies: I spent two years learning packaging ;) [22:57] packaging is hard [22:57] and still don't have it all figured out [22:57] it's not a huge undertaking, but it would be soothing to know there is somebody to do it. [22:57] I landed my first package in debian in 2006 and I'm still lousy at it :) [22:57] obviously, this person should be somebody who has PPU for the docs packages. [22:57] I haven't packaged anything yet, but I'm willing to learn. [22:57] thats why I think the developer guide and normal pathway is win because giving a watered down course or guide on packaging is going to end in people learning hanky and then dev member board is not going to approve those people PPU because they won't confident in their skills [22:57] pakcaging aside, I have a pretty good handle on the rest of it. [22:58] I want people to be successful in that [22:58] yeah [22:58] I highly encourage folks to dig up dholbach or slangaseks google hangout videos about anatomy of packaging [22:58] so maybe add some packaging links to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Repository/Members-Serverguide ? [22:58] yes [22:58] bkerensa: That's fine, but there's a lot more to it than just creating a deb file. I want to document everything that needs to be done before and after the dev pathway you mentioned. Then we can just link to the dev pathway docs in the middle. [22:59] ok cool [22:59] godbyk: sure lets nail that down before end of cycle [22:59] No, to the generic page, the serverguide has not package version. [22:59] thanks bkerensa! [22:59] dsmythies: oh, right [22:59] bkerensa: Sounds like a plan. I'll send you and email and we can start working on that stuff. Thanks! [22:59] #topic Any other business [22:59] this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Repository/Members [22:59] godbyk: and although I am often gone if you ever want to setup a time/day to learn some packaging I am happy to show you what I know [23:00] Anything else? (I hope not, this rounds up hour 3 of meetings for me today and I may killself) [23:00] ((just kidding)) [23:00] bkerensa: Cool. Yeah, I'm sure we can find a time to get together and work on that. [23:00] yes, [23:00] knome, piny and ready [23:00] ta [23:00] Is ther a "how to do a classroom session" somehwere? [23:00] dsmythies: yeah, sec [23:00] dsmythies: Great question! [23:00] I posted an application for ubuntu-core-docs. Glad if somebody get it some attention. ;-) [23:01] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom/Guidelines [23:01] It's been forever since I've done that stuff.. and I think it's changed since then. [23:01] and you can see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom for links to past classes [23:01] pleia2: thanks. [23:01]