[00:49] <mapps> so windy outside
[00:51] <mapps> need a new series to watch hm
[00:54] <mapps> everyone sleeping?
[01:01] <mapps> cant figure out this openVPn thing..it drops connection on iOS pause (network unavaliable)_ but its not i can discnnect/reconnect immediately
[01:01] <mapps>  it doesnt even make sense :D it seems to lose connection ..openvpn ios app will say pause (network unavliable) even though my server is up and i can reconnect..but get this..its done that and i cant access the net..but im getting whatsapp notifications? wich needs net..when i go on whatsapp it cant connect
[01:27] <daftykins> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-jersey-26059644
[01:42] <daftykins> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=I7_HY2NKkD4#t=88
[05:33] <popey> pip pip
[06:07] <jussi> oooh... I spy, with my little eye, 1 little... err.. popey :D
[06:59] <[1]MooDoo> morning all
[07:02] <MooDoo> yawn!
[07:34] <MartijnVdS> \o
[07:34] <jussi> o/
[07:34] <jussi> \o/
[07:34] <MooDoo> morning you two
[07:35] <jussi> morning MooDoo
[07:36] <jussi> what is everyone having for breakfast today?
[07:36] <MooDoo> coffee
[07:36] <jussi> Ive got Tea, rye bread with butter, cheese and vegemite...
[07:37] <jussi> and some yoghurt (not on the rye bread)
[07:37] <jussi> :D
[07:37] <MooDoo> sounds lovely
[07:37] <MooDoo> jussi, how was fosdem?
[07:37] <jussi> MooDoo: no idea, wasnt there
[07:38] <MooDoo> ah hmmm wonder why i thought you went lol
[07:38] <MooDoo> jussi, ah one of the speakers was a jussi, i added 2+2 and got 10
[07:39] <jussi> MooDoo: in finland, jussi is about as popular as john is in the UK
[07:39] <MooDoo> that explains that then
[08:26] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls.
[08:27] <MartijnVdS> \o brobostigon
[08:27] <brobostigon> morning MartijnVdS
[08:27] <MooDoo> hello brobostigon
[08:28] <brobostigon> morning MooDoo
[08:31] <jussi> moar tea!!
[08:31] <jussi> :)
[08:32]  * brobostigon points at his mouth and says "insert coffee here, please."
[08:37] <MooDoo> foooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooood
[08:37] <brobostigon> breakkie
[08:39] <jussi> brobostigon: whats for brekkie?
[08:39] <brobostigon> buttered toast
[08:40] <jussi> no vegemite? :D
[08:40] <brobostigon> no
[08:40]  * jussi grins
[08:41] <MooDoo> yuck.....now bovril on the other hand ;)
[08:41] <jussi> my wife cant understand why I like vegemite...
[08:43] <MooDoo> jussi, it's coz your nuts?
[08:44] <jussi> MooDoo: maybe... I am an aussie...
[08:50] <jussi> hrm... you know how android has each program in its own sandbox/user?  would it be impractical to do that on linux? does it already exist?
[08:52] <brobostigon> its already done, for things like apache and those kinds of things.
[08:54] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Busby Babes Day! :-)
[08:56] <MooDoo> hello JamesTait
[09:06] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[09:09] <JamesTait> MooDoo, o/
[09:21] <jussi> brobostigon: yeah, Ive seen it for somethings, like apache, like openerp. but what about desktop apps?
[09:22] <brobostigon> it should be possible, i dont see why not.
[09:22] <jussi> would it be useful do you think?  would it add security ?
[09:23] <brobostigon> possibly for things like chrome or FF, however chrome sandboxes its tabs already in that way.
[09:23] <bigcalm> Anybody here using nvidia-331 with nvidia-prime and get this bug 1276816 ?
[09:35] <bigcalm> I'm guessing not
[09:36] <MooDoo> didn't you uninstall it?
[09:37] <bigcalm> davmor2: convinced me to give it another try
[09:38] <bigcalm> This is the sort of fun we get up to at our fortnightly LUG meetings in the pub
[09:39] <foobarry> if android has a sandbox, how can certain apps crash my phone?
[09:41] <dwatkins> do you give them root, foobarry?
[09:41] <MartijnVdS> also, which apps?
[09:45] <foobarry> no dwatkins
[09:46] <foobarry> twitter, adobe reader,
[09:46] <foobarry> maybe the phone got bored waiting for something to happen
[09:47] <foobarry> "All stop errors due to problems with NTFS or FAT have encoded in their first parameter the source file and the line number within the source file that generated the stop error. The high 16 bits (the first four hexadecimal digits after 0x) identify the source file number, and the lower 16 bits (the last four hexadecimal digits of the parameter) identify the source line in the file where the stop occurred."
[09:47] <foobarry> anyone know how to find the file name from a stop error?
[09:49] <foobarry> brother has a 0x24 BSOD when he tries to boot windows
[09:51] <dwatkins> it's shown on the BSOD
[09:52] <dwatkins> iirc there's an app which will recreate the screen based on the dump file it created, can't remember what it's called, though
[09:53] <dwatkins> here it is, foobarry - http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/blue_screen_view.html
[09:53] <foobarry> handy
[09:53] <foobarry> except pc won't boot :(
[09:53] <dwatkins> oh bah
[09:53] <dwatkins> even in safe mode?
[09:53] <foobarry> nope
[09:53] <dwatkins> it's hosed, then
[09:54] <foobarry> needs a chkdsk
[09:54] <dwatkins> perhaps it was just that the disk failed
[09:54] <foobarry> he has kids
[09:54] <foobarry> so i'm thinking maybe corrupt fs.
[09:54] <foobarry> http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=228888&sd=RMVP
[09:56] <dwatkins> seems logical - the presence of a child's magnetic field can easily corrupt any hard disk if the child is supplied with enough biscuits and milk.
[09:58] <foobarry> http://ubuntuone.com/3TS5gzkt4XNSLCj6v7gnKF
[09:59] <dwatkins> do you have a CD to hand which you can do a repair installation from, foobarry?
[09:59] <dwatkins> i.e. OS install CD
[09:59] <foobarry> i was gonna text him to ask that.
[09:59] <foobarry> wonder if ubuntu can fix it
[10:00] <foobarry> i have access to wixp disks somewhere
[10:02] <bigcalm> Is there a device I can hook up to my desktop so that it'll make a noise when I get a skype call? I appear to have missed a few calls due to not having my headset on
[10:03] <foobarry> a usb phone?
[10:03] <bigcalm> And works in Linux
[10:03] <jussi> bigcalm: skype has (or used to have) a config option to have it ring on your speakers, regardless of headset
[10:04] <dwatkins> bigcalm: just plug a normal phone into the PC: http://www.echostore.com/skype-phone-adaptor-usb.html
[10:04] <jussi> bigcalm: alternately, do youhave a smart phone? just run skype there all the time and it will ring...
[10:04] <bigcalm> jussi: I don't have speakers :)
[10:04] <foobarry> go to the dump
[10:04] <foobarry> usually some lying around
[10:04] <bigcalm> Having skype on my phone is not something that appeals to me
[10:05] <bigcalm> I have a skype-phone-adaptor, but I don't think it works in Linux. I don't know any that do
[10:05] <dwatkins> bigcalm: see link above ;)
[10:05]  * bigcalm reads
[10:06] <foobarry> cute. looks...old
[10:07] <foobarry> fedora core 3 driver only
[10:08] <dwatkins> there are probably newer ones
[10:09] <bigcalm> Sod it, I'll put skype on my phone :(
[10:10] <foobarry> the war of attrition
[10:10] <foobarry> we always yield in the end
[10:10] <foobarry> (except RMS)
[10:13] <jussi> bigcalm: you could just stop using skype :P
[10:13] <foobarry> sipdroid?
[10:13] <foobarry> or does cyanogen/android just handle it all now
[10:13] <bigcalm> jussi: get my clients to do the same
[10:14] <directhex> SIP doesn't work.
[10:14] <foobarry> which asepct specifically directhex ?
[10:15] <directhex> foobarry, the "IP address is burned into the SIP packets so it can't be NATted successfully without use of a proxy server or a router which rewrites every incoming & outgoing packet" aspect
[10:15] <foobarry> isn't that why you sign up with a sip gateway provider?
[10:21] <foobarry> i think you can even dial skype contacts too
[10:27] <dvrr> Hiii good morning all
[10:27] <dwatkins> I use sipgate.co.uk, I can log in from my phone and accept calls at an 0118 number
[10:28] <foobarry> dwatkins: how much u pay?
[10:28] <dwatkins> if you're behind a NAT router, you'll need a device outside the router to log into, I think it's called a SIP endpoint
[10:28] <foobarry> what's the battery drain like to allow ur phone to receive calls?
[10:28] <dwatkins> foobarry: nothing, I never make outgoing calls with it, just have it as an alternative number for people to call
[10:28] <dwatkins> I don't notice any extra battery drain.
[10:31] <Blinky_>  Hi guys, could someone please tell me how to set the permissions on my /var/www directory so that new adding files can be seen on the website?
[10:31] <foobarry> dwatkins: or referred to as a pbx i assume
[10:32] <dwatkins> foobarry: not necessarily, a pbx tends to be one connected physically to phones
[10:33] <foobarry> or a virtual pbx
[10:33] <dwatkins> http://technews.tmcnet.com/channels/sip-end-points/articles/218483-what-sip-endpoints.htm
[10:33] <foobarry> https://www1.pbxes.com/index_e.php
[10:33] <dwatkins> also known as a proxy server in the SIP world, I think
[10:33] <foobarry> beware oboxious flash movie
[10:34] <dwatkins> oh? I have adblock and other such things so I don't see silly things like that
[10:34] <foobarry> on the pbxes site
[10:36] <MooDoo> oh blinky didn''t stay long
[10:37] <foobarry> don't blink
[10:38] <MooDoo> no statues in here is there?
[10:48] <MooDoo> AlanBell, sounds like your having bot issues.....
[11:05] <TheOpenSourcerer> What's the clock indicator thinggy called again? Has disappeared from the bar? :-(
[11:07] <jpds> TheOpenSourcerer: indicator-datetime?
[11:08] <davmor2> Morning all
[11:08] <TheOpenSourcerer> OK - how do I restart just that then?
[11:09] <bigcalm> Morning davmor2
[11:09] <jpds> TheOpenSourcerer: Seems to be /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/indicator-datetime-service here.
[11:10] <TheOpenSourcerer> So how do I restart it without killing Unity?
[11:11] <TheOpenSourcerer> killall unity-panel-service perhaps?
[11:11] <davmor2> bigcalm: why you been banding my nick around now?
[11:11] <TheOpenSourcerer> Yep. That worked.
[11:11] <MooDoo> davmor2, he wanted to know who is the best person to stab, and that would be you ;)
[11:12] <bigcalm> Haha
[11:12] <davmor2> MooDoo: oh well that goes without saying just ask czajkowski
[11:13] <MooDoo> davmor2, I've not spoken to her in awhile, don't think I dare any more ;)
[11:22] <xalyy> Hello everyone
[11:23] <xalyy> I have a question is ubuntu 13.10 good for KVM I mean opening a VPS hosting? I would like to open a reliable host, but need to know which OS would be good for a virtualization
[11:25] <MooDoo> xalyy,so you want to use ubuntu as a kvm host?
[11:25] <xalyy> Yes if possible because I can't configure CentOS and I used ubuntu before and thats fit better for me
[11:26] <kvarley> Anybody know how I can find the cause of an "Unresponsive script" message in firefox
[11:26] <kvarley> It says it's a library file causing it but I want to see the parent call
[11:26] <kvarley> Nothing shows in the web console
[11:26] <davmor2> xalyy: then you want the lts not 13.10 there is no support life on 13.10
[11:26] <MooDoo> xalyy, I don't see why you can't use it :)
[11:27] <xalyy> So its possible without any problem? :)
[11:27] <davmor2> kvarley: Does ps aux show anything?
[11:28] <MooDoo> xalyy, well I can't comment on that as i've never used it, but the server is used for cloud hosting so I don't see why it should give you any problems
[11:28] <kvarley> davmor2: Well it's a javascript loop taking too long to run, I want to see what loop it gets stuck in :)
[11:29] <xalyy> I am asking this because if the KVM runs better on CentOS then I have to solve my problem on it but if it runs the same then I install again ubuntu
[11:29] <MooDoo> xalyy,if you have the hard ware, then try it :D
[11:30] <xalyy> But I have to know it exactly because I suck with CentOS for like three days, and renting a dedicated is not cheap :(
[11:30] <davmor2> xalyy: Ubuntu was the first distro to officially support and ship kvm as a default vm mechanism.
[11:30] <xalyy> Wow :D
[11:30] <MooDoo> ah right, well then I'm not sure of the differrence with centos and ubuntu for virtulisation
[11:30] <xalyy> Then no problems :)
[11:30] <MartijnVdS> there isn't much difference, I think
[11:30] <MooDoo> yay
[11:31] <xalyy> Ok
[11:31] <MartijnVdS> both prefer libvirt and kvm
[11:31] <xalyy> And I heard 14.04 is just released few days ago what are the new featerus? Do I give a shot for it?
[11:31] <xalyy> Features*
[11:32] <MooDoo> xalyy, 14.04 is released in april
[11:32] <MooDoo> officially
[11:32] <davmor2> xalyy: I would recommend 12.04 over 13.10 due to the support though.  13.10 only has 9 months support.  12.04 is nearly 2 years old and has another 3 years of support
[11:32] <foobarry> xalyy: the .04 means the fourth month of teh year
[11:32] <xalyy> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/current/
[11:33] <xalyy> But look it says febr 5
[11:33] <foobarry> that's not the release ver.
[11:33] <MooDoo> xalyy,is that beta?
[11:33] <foobarry> just the wonder of open source let you kick the tyres and report bugs
[11:33] <xalyy> Ohhh ok :D
[11:33] <xalyy> I stay with 13.10
[11:33] <foobarry> !trusty
[11:34] <MooDoo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases
[11:34] <davmor2> xalyy: Current mean the current daily testing release not the current released version for general use
[11:34] <xalyy> But I can download here the 13.10 nah?
[11:34] <davmor2> xalyy: if you plan on doing this for a server use 12.04 not 13.10
[11:35] <xalyy> Server use?
[11:35] <xalyy> Why would I use the older verison
[11:35] <MooDoo> xalyy, it's LTS long term support
[11:36] <xalyy> Can you give me a link then where to download?
[11:37] <MooDoo> http://www.ubuntu.com/download/server
[11:37] <davmor2> xalyy: it's been tried and tested for 2 years so a lot of the bugs are closed, it is designed for server and business and it has another 3 years of support over the 9 months that 13.10 has
[11:38] <xalyy> Ohh ok
[11:38] <xalyy> And this is without desktop enviroment?
[11:38] <MooDoo> xalyy,yes
[11:38] <xalyy> Okay
[11:38] <MooDoo> but you can install it if you wanted but why would you do that on a server :D
[11:39] <xalyy> Lol how would I manage my vps?
[11:39] <MooDoo> xalyy, SSH?
[11:39] <xalyy> Without DE
[11:39] <xalyy> No no its too messy :D
[11:39] <xalyy> Its easier in VNC
[11:39] <MooDoo> xalyy, then you'd have to think about installing a desktop environment and use VNC or something else
[11:40] <MooDoo> xalyy, kits of tutorials on the web about doing this - http://www.ubuntugeek.com/how-to-install-gui-on-ubuntu-12-04-precise-server.html
[11:40] <MooDoo> as an example
[11:40] <xalyy> I know how to install
[11:40] <xalyy> I said I used before :D
[11:40] <xalyy> But ty
[11:40] <MooDoo> fair enough :D
[11:40] <foobarry> what do you mean "manage your vps"
[11:41] <xalyy> KVM VPS management?
[11:41] <foobarry> provision vms?
[11:42] <xalyy> http://wordpress.banym.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/kvm-10.jpg
[11:42] <foobarry> you can remote display an app over ssh
[11:42] <foobarry> also there's lots of good commind line tools
[11:43] <dwatkins> yeah, but it's hideously slow
[11:43] <foobarry> not worth using vnc for this
[11:43] <foobarry> desktop on a server = not best practice
[11:43] <dwatkins> I tend to use NX for remote display via ssh, as the old ssh -X redirection of just the window isn't very well optimised
[11:43] <foobarry> nx is nifty
[11:44] <xalyy> It can handle it, its not an intel atom dedicated server
[11:44] <xalyy> No worries
[11:44] <davmor2> xalyy: http://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Management_Tools
[11:44] <foobarry> got enough RAM ?
[11:45] <xalyy> 24 gb
[11:45] <xalyy> But whats that?
[11:45] <foobarry> installing and running desktop environment on a server is the windows approach to things
[11:46] <foobarry> you add unnecessary overhead
[11:46] <foobarry> CLI tools are quicker
[11:46] <dwatkins> yeah, thin clients aren't really worth the hassle
[11:46] <dwatkins> I have a friend who is a teacher, it can take longer than the length of the lesson to log in to the thin client to do the register
[11:46] <foobarry> it pains me when i see windows admins rdesktop to server to get things done
[11:46] <bashrc> thin clients were an idea whose time never came
[11:46] <foobarry> takes 10x longer
[11:46] <directhex> ahem
[11:47] <dwatkins> foobarry: that's because Windows doesn't tend to allow command line stuff for most things
[11:47] <directhex> if you're using kvm, you should be managing it with libvirt
[11:47] <directhex> if you're managing it with libvirt, you can use virt-manager on your local desktop to manage things remotely - vm creation & monitoring, etc
[11:47] <directhex> i use virt-manager for gui access to virtual machines on hosts in london
[11:48] <xalyy> http://www.howtogeek.com/117635/how-to-install-kvm-and-create-virtual-machines-on-ubuntu/ is this a good guide?
[11:49] <foobarry> directhex: does it use port 22?
[11:49] <directhex> foobarry, it uses whichever port you run your sshd on
[11:50] <directhex> xalyy, seems reasonable, for a local desktop/laptop
[11:50] <foobarry> ok
[11:50] <TheOpenSourcerer> virt-manager FTW!
[11:50] <foobarry> ugly tool though innit
[11:50] <foobarry> even cli is prettier
[11:50] <TheOpenSourcerer> It works though.
[11:58] <xalyy> Directhex
[11:59] <dwatkins> I use irssi because I prefer the command line for everything possible.
[11:59] <MooDoo> yay irssi
[11:59] <xalyy> Then guys can you show me an example which would a starting VPS business guy use?
[11:59] <xalyy> I mean why this isnt good for business use?
[12:00] <directhex> basically the same guide, but do the "virt-manager" install only on your local laptop - the rest should be on the server.
[12:00] <directhex> then run virt-manager locally, File, Add Connection, Connect to remote host, fill in the boxes
[12:00] <directhex> now virt-manager on your laptops talks to remote VPS host
[12:00] <xalyy> Ugh :D
[12:01] <foobarry> you mean yay :D
[12:01] <MooDoo> xalyy lol you want to start on this rocky road :D
[12:01] <foobarry> this is the best advice you could get on the subject
[12:01] <xalyy> Yes but I only start a VPS business if my method will fail
[12:01] <foobarry> i suggest you take it
[12:02] <xalyy> So first I test for myself then if not works what I planned then open business or sell the dedicated
[12:02] <xalyy> thats it :P
[12:02] <xalyy> Do I get a fresh install if I install this server.iso?
[12:03] <xalyy> I messed up centos a little
[12:03] <foobarry> not being funny but i wouldn't buy a service from someone who isn't expert
[12:03] <foobarry> i'd use bytemark or rackspace etc
[12:03] <dwatkins> I'd just use AWS.
[12:04] <xalyy> Where I will sell its not really matters are you an expert or not :P
[12:05] <xalyy> They just buy if it's not good for them then I will refund if good they keep it, thats it
[12:05] <foobarry> really?
[12:05] <xalyy> Simple
[12:05] <foobarry> i have a nuclear reactor i made in my shed,. wanna buy?
[12:06] <MooDoo> foobarry, only if I get to play with the good stuff :)
[12:07] <bashrc> fission or fusion?
[12:07] <foobarry> bashrc: i am not an expert, i just followed online guide
[12:07] <xalyy> No no I talked seriously :P
[12:07] <foobarry> if it doesn't work, i'll refund u
[12:08] <bashrc> how many megawatts?
[12:09] <xalyy> So does this give me a fresh install? :D
[12:13] <foobarry> i am sitting at my desk about 100 yds away from the site of a nuclear reactor
[12:13] <foobarry> true story
[12:13] <foobarry> *old site of nuclear reactor
[12:14] <TheOpenSourcerer> I create fusion reactions in my stomach... Just eat some superhot chillies ;-)
[12:15] <MooDoo> hmmm superhot chiilies
[12:15] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: Mr Fusion is you? :)
[12:15] <TheOpenSourcerer> :-)
[12:16] <TheOpenSourcerer> This year's season so far: https://plus.google.com/photos/104060033182234025482/albums/5975387695779422977
[12:18] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: looks a bit like what the police took out of the house when my upstairs neighbor was forced to leave ;)
[12:18] <TheOpenSourcerer> ha
[12:18] <TheOpenSourcerer> Some of my chilli growing friends have been visited by the Police recently... The Coppers find it all rather strange.
[12:18] <foobarry> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Mary_University_of_London#Nuclear_reactor
[12:44] <mapps> hm get so many leaflets for fast food through my door
[12:48] <MooDoo> tell me about it, the posties get paid for delivering crap
[12:48] <neuro> MORNING UBUNTIANS
[12:48] <neuro> or ... ubunters?
[12:48] <neuro> ubuntanians?
[12:48] <neuro> speaking of virtualisation ...
[12:49] <neuro> anyone tried doing that on a host from OVH?
[12:49] <neuro> aka kimsufi aka soyoustart
[12:50] <neuro> i think you have to do some tomfoolery with virtual MACs to assign to their "failover" (additional) IPs, but I've never tried it
[12:51] <mapps> hey neuro
[12:53] <neuro> lo mapps
[12:57] <neuro> sounds like a "no" then :)
[12:58] <MartijnVdS> neuro: it *is* a very specific question :)
[12:58] <neuro> true
[12:58] <foobarry> are sony stopping making laptops?
[12:58] <neuro> possibly
[12:59] <davmor2> foobarry: sounds like it from the news
[12:59] <neuro> there's chat about them selling the business a la ibm to lenovo
[13:00] <davmor2> neuro: I thought they were just going to concentrate on tablets and phones so they would still want people there I guess
[13:00] <neuro> the vaio and xperia business units are separate iirc
[13:03] <davmor2> neuro: fair enough then :)
[13:05] <neuro> i had a vaio Z600-LEK
[13:05] <neuro> was my first ever laptop, loved it to bits
[13:05] <foobarry> i had a vaio cckkkakzkxkxkccr
[13:05] <foobarry> worst model names ever
[13:06] <neuro> hehe
[13:10] <neuro> ah, thought i had some pics somewhere
[13:10] <neuro> http://wpa.io/pics/2001/05/vaio/?01
[13:10] <MartijnVdS> vaios look nice, but they're plastic and break easily
[13:11] <MartijnVdS> mine does anyway
[13:11] <dwatkins> I used to have a Nokia phone like that
[13:11] <neuro> yeah, they always have been
[13:11] <foobarry> i had a purple alu one
[13:11] <dwatkins> 6210
[13:11] <neuro> dwatkins: nokia 6210
[13:11] <foobarry> login to server m.outlook.com failed
[13:11] <dwatkins> :)
[13:11] <neuro> greatest phone i ever had
[13:11] <dwatkins> yeah, nice fast menus, none of the extraneous crap you don't need
[13:12] <neuro> totally
[13:13] <neuro> dual band, wap, all kinds of awesome
[13:14] <dwatkins> I knew someone with a similar phone that had two SIM cards
[13:14] <dwatkins> possibly the type used in the film The Matrix which flips out
[13:15] <foobarry> the nokia banana phone? i had that
[13:15] <foobarry> first company phone
[13:16] <dwatkins> they were great, until they seized-up
[13:16] <directhex> well.actuallk.cat
[13:16] <directhex> bah
[13:16] <neuro> http://neuro.me.uk/bitsnbobs/matrixphone/
[13:17] <directhex> the matrix used a phone with no click mechanism
[13:17] <dwatkins> aha, I wondered why it was slightly different
[13:17] <neuro> they modded the 8110s for the movie
[13:17] <directhex> yep, what neuro said
[13:17] <directhex> the 8110 was an *old* phone
[13:17] <directhex> the 7110 was modern - big screen, wap, etc
[13:17] <neuro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_7110
[13:18] <directhex> i've owned both
[13:18] <neuro> i had a mate who had one
[13:18] <neuro> the only good thing about the 7110 was the 'snikt' matrix action
[13:18] <directhex> that was amazing though
[13:18] <neuro> haha, reference 5 on that 7110 wikipedia page
[13:19] <directhex> :D
[13:20] <ali1234> so who actually came up with the idea of putting a spring inside the cover?
[13:20] <ali1234> nokia, or some prop designer?
[13:21] <neuro> probably the latter
[13:21] <ali1234> hmm... i know who would know
[13:21] <neuro> which reminds me, i've let a domain lapse ...
[13:21] <MooDoo> neuro, you mean your isp doesn't auto renew domains for you?
[13:22] <MartijnVdS> MooDoo: you mean, you trust your ISP? :)
[13:22] <neuro> ISP? domains?
[13:22] <neuro> i am my own registrar
[13:22] <MooDoo> silly me
[13:22] <neuro> well, an opensrs reseller at least
[13:23] <MartijnVdS> srsrly
[13:23] <neuro> srsly
[13:23]  * jussi grumbles ion the general openerp direction
[13:23] <MartijnVdS> jussi: anion or cation?
[13:23] <MooDoo> it's not that hard to be a reseller iirc
[13:23] <neuro> never said it was
[13:23] <jussi> MartijnVdS: mrghrghrhg
[13:23] <neuro> iirc it was 90 bucks and done
[13:23] <MooDoo> sorry wasn't having a dig :D
[13:23] <neuro> :)
[13:23] <foobarry> looks like my 80 chrome tabs have come to bite me
[13:23]  * jussi bites foobarry
[13:24] <jussi> :P
[13:24] <dwatkins> I save my tabs with tabcloud
[13:25] <foobarry> my window manager crashes when i get to 0MB RAM free
[13:26] <foobarry> usually its a facebook tab that pushes over the edge
[13:26] <MartijnVdS> why would you need 80 tabs though?
[13:26] <foobarry> work
[13:27] <foobarry> researching a problem
[13:27] <foobarry> work in progress
[13:27] <foobarry> bookmark managers in browsers are very poor
[13:27] <neuro> well, that was quicker than i thought
[13:27] <neuro> http://matrixphone.org/
[13:28] <foobarry> yep, had that phone
[13:28] <foobarry> i was accidentally cool for a while
[13:28] <neuro> had my mod_proxy config all wrong, and had let the domain name lapse a while back
[13:28] <neuro> surprised it wasn't snarfed by squatters
[13:29] <MooDoo> lol I have one of them at home, but my sim doesn't fit it :D
[13:29] <MooDoo> and you have to manually pull down the phone cover lol
[13:30] <foobarry> was relieved to find my giffgaff sim turns into a micro sim very easily
[13:30] <dwatkins> snip snip
[13:30] <neuro> most mini sims do
[13:30] <neuro> indeed
[13:30] <foobarry> poke poke
[13:30]  * neuro has a cutter somewhere
[13:30] <foobarry> you just flex teh giffgaff ones
[13:30] <foobarry> and the micro sim pops out of the daddy sim
[13:30] <neuro> ah, that kind
[13:31] <foobarry> yeah, sweet
[13:31] <neuro> until you want to use the sim in a mini-sim device
[13:31] <dwatkins> daughter sim
[13:31] <neuro> then you need to buy one of those stupid plastic holders
[13:31] <foobarry> i kept it
[13:31] <neuro> that Galaxy SIIs hate
[13:31] <foobarry> dwatkins: your dad has the moto g?
[13:31] <dwatkins> haha
[13:32] <neuro> i powered up my SII last night
[13:32] <neuro> won't go any higher than 4.1.2 without being rooted
[13:32] <dwatkins> I keep a Nokia 3510i just in case.
[13:32] <neuro> which in my mind defeats the point
[13:32] <neuro> god i hate android phones
[13:32] <foobarry> turned on the moto g last night, and offered a android 4.4.2 update
[13:32]  * neuro has a backup iphone 4, just in case
[13:32] <dwatkins> Try supporting Android on tablets...
[13:32] <MartijnVdS> neuro: at least they're not Apple phones
[13:32] <neuro> MartijnVdS: nothing wrong with apple phones
[13:32] <dwatkins> I actually prefer iOS to Android.
[13:32] <neuro> moi aussi
[13:33] <foobarry> will apple ever sell a non premium device?
[13:33] <dwatkins> trés bien
[13:33] <neuro> doubtful
[13:33] <dwatkins> I thought they mad echeap versions of the iPhone 5
[13:33] <foobarry> then the applefans are locked in forver
[13:33] <dwatkins> *cheap
[13:33] <neuro> no
[13:33] <dwatkins> iPhone 5C
[13:33] <neuro> the C in iphone 5C is for "colour"
[13:33] <dwatkins> C for colourful
[13:33] <neuro> it's basically an iphone 5 in a polycarb shell
[13:33] <dwatkins> oh, they're not actually cheaper?
[13:33] <neuro> same guts
[13:33] <neuro> nope
[13:34] <dwatkins> I thought they had less powerful processors etc.
[13:34] <neuro> that was just the apple rumour mill making stuff up
[13:34] <MooDoo> C is for cheaper model lol
[13:34] <neuro> compared to the 5s, yeah
[13:34] <dwatkins> shame, my iPhone 3GS is still fine for a lot of stuff
[13:34] <neuro> they still tier the models though
[13:34] <shauno> really?  I thought it'd be a bit slim to make a good doorstop
[13:34] <neuro> you can get an 8GB 4S for $cheaper
[13:35] <dwatkins> I miss having a 32GB phone to put my entire music collection on to.
[13:35] <neuro> hahahaa
[13:35] <DJones> Has any indication been given on when an UBuntu phone will be released without needing to install yourself
[13:35] <MartijnVdS> shauno: maybe you can use it to stop the desk wobbling
[13:36] <foobarry> DJones: i'm sure popey offers a personal install service too , for a price
[13:36] <neuro> hornet:~ neuro$ du -sh /Volumes/Storage\ Bay/Music/iTunes/iTunes\ Media/Music
[13:36] <neuro> 135G	/Volumes/Storage Bay/Music/iTunes/iTunes Media/Music
[13:36] <foobarry> delivered by drone
[13:36] <neuro> and by "drone", we mean an MQ-9 Reaper
[13:36]  * DJones ducks
[13:37] <dwatkins> not an owl
[13:37] <neuro> "here's your package ..."
[13:37] <foobarry> does anyone know about zram/compcache? https://code.google.com/p/compcache/
[13:37] <neuro> "... and here's a Hellfire"
[13:37] <neuro> boooom
[13:39] <jussi> everything is driving me crazy today. Libreoffice crashing, openerp being evil, its just not fun anymore!!!
[13:39] <neuro> libreoffice?
[13:39] <neuro> crashing?
[13:39] <neuro> shocker
[13:44] <foobarry> somones dad on facebook is called stalin
[13:44] <foobarry> :-|
[13:44] <foobarry> real name
[13:50] <popey> morning
[13:50] <jussi> hey! its a popey!
[13:53] <dwatkins> I have an annoy-a-tron in my office, but no-one's noticed it makes random creaking noises, probably because the building does that anyway.
[13:54] <MartijnVdS> dwatkins: have it make the same noise as the evacuation alarm ;)
[13:54] <ali1234> friend of mine had one of those whistle keyring things and then lost his keys
[13:54] <ali1234> it would not trigger no matter how much he whistled
[13:54] <ali1234> but it would activate at random times and we'd all start looking behind the couch etc
[13:55] <ali1234> took us like a week to find it
[13:55] <dwatkins> I had a keyring thing which I didn't know made a noise when you squished it, then we started hearing this random "boing" noise, and assumed a neighbor was playing computer games, turned out the keyring toy was under a box and got activated whenever we walked around,
[14:13] <foobarry> what's the last kernel that 12.04 will get?
[14:13] <foobarry> (barring security updates)
[14:19] <DJones> foobarry: I think its getting the 3.5 kernel
[14:20] <DJones> foobarry: http://askubuntu.com/questions/279391/quantal-backported-kernel-in-12-04-2-whats-going-on-there
[14:20] <MartijnVdS> 12.04.3 even has raring
[14:20] <MartijnVdS> and .4 has saucy backports
[14:20] <MartijnVdS> Search for the "LTS enablement stack"
[14:21] <DJones> MartijnVdS: Yeah thats what I was working up to, basically, it gets the latest kernel released for the most recent Ubuntu release
[14:21] <DJones> foobarry: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/LTSEnablementStack
[14:22] <foobarry> need 3.11 or 3.14 :(
[14:22] <foobarry> they probably stop 14.04 though?
[14:22] <foobarry> for 12.04 backports
[14:28] <MartijnVdS> foobarry: popey knows.
[14:29] <MartijnVdS> foobarry: would be likely though -- by that time you shuold just install the new LTS instaed
[14:29] <foobarry> yeah.
[14:29] <foobarry> what's 14.04 getting kernel wise?
[14:29] <popey> 3.13
[14:29] <foobarry> thanks
[14:29] <foobarry> so zswap but not zram
[14:29] <MartijnVdS> + potentially LTS enablement from later kernels
[14:29] <popey> 3.13 + stuff backported from 3.14
[15:33]  * neuro gets some more money from second life
[15:33] <neuro> s/more money/more free money/
[15:34] <MartijnVdS> that still exists?!
[15:34] <neuro> yup
[15:34] <neuro> i have a complimentary premium account
[15:35] <neuro> and premium accounts get a weekly stipend in L$
[15:35] <neuro> so every few months I empty it out and bank it to paypal
[15:35] <neuro> and between june and today, I "earned" about L$15K
[15:36] <neuro> which is about US$55
[15:36] <MartijnVdS> invest in btc ;)
[15:36] <neuro> sod that
[15:37]  * popey wonders what to spend his 0.00220293BTC on
[15:40] <MartijnVdS> popey: a new car?
[15:40] <neuro> a matchbox car maybe
[15:42]  * neuro works that out at approx $17.77
[15:42] <neuro> oops
[15:42] <neuro> decimal place
[15:43] <neuro> $1.78
[17:48] <neuro> annoying things about the planet #15,691,642: having to wait til 6pm for a sales call from a potential supplier because it's 10am in san francisco :P
[17:49] <mapps> hmm annoying..my router restarted and now my ubuntu machine wont connect
[17:56] <daftykins> mapps: is it set to DHCP?
[17:57] <mapps> daftykins,  thing is..my router restarts it gets cutoff as expected but then if i select my wifi from the list..it fails connecting? yet if i disable networking and re-enabl;e it'll connect??
[17:57] <daftykins> oh wireless
[17:57] <mapps> ya
[17:58] <mapps> i just don't see why when i select it it cant connect after being dc but it works if i disbale?|
[17:58] <daftykins> yeah that's quite odd. beyond my experience though i'm afraid as i don't use desktop ubuntu with wireless
[18:13] <daftykins> anyone ever dealt with autodiscover SRV records in their DNS?
[18:14] <shauno> deja vu
[18:15] <daftykins> haha yeah i never did get around to sorting it
[18:15] <daftykins> *** No Service location (SRV) records available for _autodiscover._tcp.cisa.gg
[18:15] <daftykins> thats all i get
[18:15] <daftykins> using openDNS
[18:16] <daftykins> so i presume i'm setting it wrong
[18:19] <daftykins> ah well i gave the email provider a shout so perhaps they can steer me right :)
[18:23] <shauno> yeah I don't see it either.  but I do see an autodiscover.cisa.gg, so it should try the http-post to /Autodiscover/Autodiscover.xml first?
[18:24] <diddledan__> daftykins: doing it via dig I get : _autodiscover._tcp.cisa.gg. 3600 IN	SRV	0 5 443 exchange.mse2010.com.cisa.gg.
[18:24] <shauno> ooh really?  I don't.  oddness
[18:24] <diddledan__> shauno: I ran the following: $ dig srv _autodiscover._tcp.cisa.gg
[18:24] <daftykins> i did just this second create another
[18:25] <daftykins> well, 8 mins ago
[18:25] <daftykins> https://www.dropbox.com/s/zj4exy1n2sthazb/cisa-srv.jpg
[18:25] <daftykins> theres how my provider looks
[18:26] <daftykins> although i figured the trailing "." was probably wrong, so i removed it
[18:27] <daftykins> there seems to be no place on my provider to set that it's TCP, so i created a second SRV that has "_autodiscover._tcp" as that first column field
[18:27] <diddledan__> a trailing . indicates that the name it's attached to is fully-qualified
[18:27] <diddledan__> without the . will cause the name to be relative to the parent it's defined within
[18:27] <daftykins> ah yeah, doesn't belong that early on then perhaps
[18:29]  * neuro just confused a US sales person by having a Scottish accent, but a 415 area code phone number
[18:29] <daftykins> perhaps if i wait an hour and test again
[18:29] <bigcalm> My regexing is arse. How do I test that a string has 'accont1' to 'account5' ?
[18:29] <bigcalm> Is it /account[1-5]/ ?
[18:29] <MartijnVdS> mapps: yes
[18:29] <MartijnVdS> well
[18:29] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: yes
[18:30] <bigcalm> Amazing, okay :)
[18:30] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: except it won't match "accont" ;)
[18:30] <MartijnVdS> in that case, you need "accou?nt" :)
[18:30] <neuro> daftykins: that's an awful looking DNS interface :)
[18:30]  * bigcalm tickles MartijnVdS :P
[18:30] <daftykins> neuro: eh, i chopped the view down a lot
[18:32] <neuro> mine looks like this https://www.dropbox.com/s/88hy6c424nsc48q/Screenshot%202014-02-06%2018.32.06.png
[18:33] <daftykins> hah
[18:33] <neuro> i makey ze change to mister bind zone file, i run an update script to push it out to my nameservers and i sit back and grin
[18:33] <shauno> s/grin/pray/
[18:34] <neuro> nah, i do a sanity check before hand
[18:34] <neuro> usually the only problem i have is forgetting to update the SOA serial
[18:34] <shauno> our method seems to be; push update; put phone to silent
[18:34] <bigcalm> OK (2 tests, 5 assertions)
[18:34] <daftykins> i get the response if i pick my provider's nameserver as the one i'm querying
[18:34] <bigcalm> Yay, thank you MartijnVdS :)
[18:34] <daftykins> shauno: 8D
[18:34] <neuro> shauno: hehe
[18:35] <neuro> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwCSyaUOet8
[18:37] <shauno> I gotta say though, the only ns issues we've really had are well-meaning people "fixing" our mx record
[18:39] <shauno> we still use mail.ouroriginaldomain for a specific purpose, because it's hardcoded in legacy equipment.  we keep getting people spotting it and pointing it to messagelabs
[18:39] <shauno> then we have to panic and explain to them yet again that it's broken on purpose
[18:39] <daftykins> hehe
[18:39] <neuro> been there
[18:40] <neuro> oldname.biz -> newname.com
[18:40] <neuro> but loads of stuff using the .biz for auth, and an exchange/bes using it too
[18:40] <shauno> even funnier is that we still haven't found anyone who can login to mail.legacy.  so it's just the little linux box that could now
[18:40] <daftykins> ooh hang on i broke it taking out that one i created
[18:40] <neuro> it's going to be that novell box plastered behind a wall, isn't it
[18:40] <mapps> anyone use squid guard?
[18:40] <daftykins> diddledan__: has your 'dig' of my domain also changed to have no entry now?
[18:41] <shauno> oh no, we know where it is.  "could you turn that back on" has been another issue
[18:41] <neuro> :)
[18:42] <diddledan__> daftykins: it's still cached at what I reported just now
[18:42] <daftykins> ah ok, i think i spotted what works
[18:42] <ali1234> shauno: how's the wefax going?
[18:43] <diddledan__> daftykins: upstreaming to 8.8.8.8 gives me an empty response
[18:43] <daftykins> diddledan__: roger that ty
[18:43] <shauno> I haven't touched it for a few days .. it's been a weird week
[18:44] <ali1234> i tried using the "mobile" version of websdr and i noticed a few things
[18:45] <ali1234> it has an option to increase the audio buffer, which helps. it also have a ppm error estimation right on the page, which seems to follow the skewing
[18:45] <ali1234> i managed to get this: http://imagebin.org/291310
[18:45] <shauno> hm, that's a lot more convincing.  wobble but less so
[18:46] <ali1234> so i would say, try to eliminate the soundcard loopback, and make sure that everything is well buffered
[18:53] <daftykins> diddledan__: thanks to your output i also saw i had to put a trailing '.' after the domain it needed to forward to \o/
[18:53] <diddledan__> yeys
[18:53] <diddledan__> although do you think discussing my output is appropriate for a family friendly channel? :-p
[18:53] <daftykins> always
[18:54] <daftykins> were you to do it again it should just report exchange.mse2010.com ?
[18:54] <daftykins> instead of that .cisa.gg
[18:54] <diddledan__> yes, it does
[18:54] <daftykins> \o/
[18:54] <diddledan__> well done
[18:54] <daftykins> so putting in _autodiscover._tcp was the answer
[18:55] <daftykins> but if you try and do it via google @ 8.8.8.8 it just returns the pointer to my provider's DNS
[18:55] <daftykins> which would probably still get the answer, just later? *shrug*
[19:03] <diddledan__> lol @ email from netflix: Career criminal Milton breaks free from hell to pursue the cult that killed his daughter and abducted her baby, racing to save the infant before the group sacrifices her. Milton in turn is chased by Satan's right-hand man, a determined accountant.
[19:03] <diddledan__> there's nothing worse than a determined accountant!
[19:04] <daftykins> :D
[19:04] <diddledan__> that's about the movie "Drive Angry"
[19:04] <diddledan__> with nick cage
[19:04] <daftykins> i wish people didn't :(
[19:04] <daftykins> as it causes me to "Cycle Angry" :(
[19:06] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: come to Amsterdam! We have lots of those ;)
[19:06] <diddledan__> MartijnVdS: angry cyclists?
[19:07] <MartijnVdS> diddledan__: yeah, especially after work they seem to be in such a rush to get home, traffic rules stop existing
[19:10] <daftykins> i find that's accurate for car drivers more here, probably down to how many cyclists i hear you have!
[19:11] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: a few ;)
[19:16] <DJones> ***%$£^&*^$ Currys ripoff thieves, dad bought a new laptop, paid for the setup & training session and they haven't done half the things he paid for....Explanation was that they didn't have wifi
[19:17] <daftykins> 0o
[19:17] <daftykins> they do? or they have wired?
[19:18] <DJones> .... daftykins Your guess is as good as mine, major high street store with no internet...MY ARSE
[19:18] <diddledan__> DJones: if they didn't have the facility to do the job they shouldn't have advertised that they can do the job, methinks
[19:18] <DJones> I can see a visit on Sunday with me going ballistic
[19:19] <daftykins> DJones: oh the session was at their shop, ok
[19:19] <DJones> They didn't install the windows updates they're supposed to
[19:21] <MartijnVdS> maybe they hit their monthly bandwidth allowance 8-)
[19:22] <daftykins> have your parents got dial-up or something?
[19:23] <neuro> oh god
[19:23] <MartijnVdS> neuro: DIAL-UP
[19:23] <neuro> i'm watching this daft woman on tuesday night's newsnight try to talk about coding
[19:23] <daftykins> *person
[19:23] <diddledan__> neuro: oh? is it bad?
[19:24] <neuro> it's THAT BAD
[19:24] <neuro> http://politicalscrapbook.net/2014/02/tory-boss-of-government-coding-education-initiative-cant-code-lottie-dexter/
[19:24] <neuro> she claims a teacher could be trained to teach code "in a day"
[19:24] <DJones> daftykins: They have broadband, which is obviously more than than the Currys store has
[19:24] <daftykins> lmao
[19:24] <MartijnVdS> neuro: sure, I can teach them "Hello World" in a day
[19:25] <neuro> oh god
[19:25] <neuro> paxman just asked "what is code"
[19:25] <ali1234> a competent secondary maths teach *could* be train to teach coding in a day
[19:25] <MartijnVdS> neuro: probably even simple loops (while true; do echo "Hello World; done)
[19:25] <neuro> response: "it's how you make computers do things"
[19:25] <daftykins> "you can build a website in an hour"
[19:25] <daftykins> yeah 'cause websites count.
[19:25] <neuro> MartijnVdS: there are specific fundamentals that i'd want a teacher to know before teaching
[19:25] <neuro> daftykins: it gets worse
[19:26] <ali1234> why wouldn't websites count?
[19:26] <neuro> it gets so much worse
[19:26] <ali1234> raeg
[19:26] <daftykins> i don't think they ever should
[19:26] <MartijnVdS> neuro: yes, because of the dreaded "Why?" from the children :)
[19:26] <neuro> ali1234: a "website" is constructed from a markup language
[19:26] <neuro> if you just sit in an IDE and type in HTML, it's not "code"
[19:26] <neuro> neither is css
[19:27] <ali1234> markup language which is quite likely to have been generated by code, and will then be further modified by javascript
[19:27] <neuro> granted if you move into JS/AJAX/et al, or dynamically construct the page in PHP/Perl/Python/Ruby/Go/etcetcetc, *then* you're coding
[19:27] <neuro> but if you're building a website "in an hour", you're not coding
[19:27] <ali1234> any why isn't html considered coding?
[19:27] <neuro> because it's a markup language
[19:28] <ali1234> coding isn't just about instructions. it is also about data. in fact data is arguably more important
[19:28] <neuro> it's about as much coding as making a word bold in MS Word is coding
[19:29] <MartijnVdS> neuro: no, in WP 5.1 with the Alt+F3 screen open
[19:29] <neuro> LOOK THE SCREN HAS ITALCIS AND UNDURLINEZ ON IT I ARE CODEING!
[19:29] <neuro> MartijnVdS: please, not to be triggering my PTSD, thanks
[19:29] <MartijnVdS> neuro: You have WordPerfect-related PTSD?
[19:30] <neuro> yup
[19:30] <shauno> I think 'coding' is way too vague to argue about what counts and what doesn't
[19:30] <neuro> "coding" == "programming"
[19:31] <diddledan__> why aren't those youtube clips working for me?
[19:31] <daftykins> i don't find the word programming so apt these days
[19:31] <neuro> yeah, i was just clarifying the term
[19:31] <daftykins> *nod*
[19:32] <daftykins> mine was an aside
[19:32] <neuro> thing is, i don't consider myself a "coder"
[19:32] <neuro> but i can knock out some bash or php pretty easily
[19:32] <MartijnVdS> r u l33t h4x0r?
[19:32] <neuro> I R
[19:32] <neuro> hack the planet
[19:32] <diddledan__> I consider myself as a "developer" usually
[19:32] <neuro> good alternate term
[19:33] <ali1234> coding is literally "encoding"
[19:33] <neuro> oh jeez
[19:33] <neuro> dude
[19:33] <neuro> html is not code
[19:33] <neuro> :)
[19:33] <daftykins> ^
[19:33] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: UCS-2
[19:33] <neuro> it's not programmatic, nothing is executed or interpreted
[19:33] <MartijnVdS> neuro: it is interpreted, or web browsing would be *annoying*
[19:33] <diddledan__> my colleague refers to himself as "coding mage" as part of a much longer job title
[19:34] <neuro> it's rendered
[19:34] <neuro> heh nice
[19:34] <MartijnVdS> neuro: it's parsed
[19:34] <MartijnVdS> diddledan__: "Bit wizard"
[19:34] <shauno> it is interpreted
[19:34] <diddledan__> MartijnVdS: bits are so old fashioned
[19:34] <neuro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpreter_(computing)
[19:35] <MartijnVdS> diddledan__: "Byte Bamboozler"?
[19:35] <diddledan__> -_-
[19:35] <MartijnVdS> diddledan__: Megabyte Mage? Gigabyte Guru?
[19:35] <diddledan__> garbage collector?
[19:36] <diddledan__> terabyte titilator?
[19:36] <neuro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsing#Parser
[19:36] <shauno> find me a dictionary and tell me that an interpreter doesn't render one language into another
[19:36] <diddledan__> shauno: english
[19:36] <MartijnVdS> diddledan__: refcount or mark&sweep? ;)
[19:36] <diddledan__> in french
[19:36] <ali1234> +1 shauno
[19:37] <neuro> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/parse#Verb
[19:37] <diddledan__> I've yet to see an interpreter that renders assembly into german
[19:37] <ali1234> diddledan__: but there is the opposite
[19:37] <neuro> shauno / ali1234: the words you're throwing around have very specific terms in the computing field
[19:37] <shauno> right, parsing is to render it into it's constituent parts.  that's the first part to interpretting
[19:38] <diddledan__> ali1234: I'm being facetious
[19:38] <diddledan__> ali1234: I'm playing both sides off against one-another
[19:38] <shauno> "To split a file or other input into pieces of data that can be easily stored or manipulated."   is what you just linked
[19:38] <daftykins> neuro: btw if you revisit your link to politicalscrapbook.net there, i like the way the upper-right link to "Arrogant IDS..." with the guy holding up a blurred hand looks like he's throwing the above envelope \o/
[19:38] <diddledan__> shauno: I prefer the term Grok
[19:38] <neuro> daftykins: nice spot, like it :)
[19:38] <shauno> a browser doesn't split html into data that can be easily manipulated, and then throw them into your lap.  so parsing is one part of a wider task
[19:38] <neuro> i LOVE the word grok
[19:39] <ali1234> diddledan__: http://esolangs.org/wiki/German
[19:39] <neuro> shauno: you're splitting hairs, HTML is NOT a programming language
[19:40] <shauno> I never said it did.  but I don't think coding==programming
[19:40] <ali1234> neither did i, for the record
[19:41] <neuro> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/code#Verb
[19:41] <neuro> "To write software programs"
[19:42] <neuro> and suddenly it goes awfully quiet :)
[19:42] <ali1234> well wiktionary is wrong
[19:42] <neuro> olk
[19:42] <neuro> s/l//
[19:43] <neuro> i didn't realise debate worked that way, but sure, let's do that instead
[19:44] <shauno> I think there's a very good reason 'coding' has appeared as an umbrella term
[19:44] <daftykins> yeah, it probably aims to encompass all the grey areas
[19:44] <neuro> OED says "code (verb): write code for (a computer program)"
[19:45] <shauno> especially where it comes to education, where getting anything in the door is a lot more constructive than picking them apart over what your idea of a language is
[19:45] <ali1234> but you're ignoring the second definition there on wiktionary, which says "To categorise by assigning identifiers from a schedule" which is literally what you are doing when you markup a document with html tags
[19:45] <neuro> oh, but i thought wiktionary was wrong?
[19:46] <ali1234> i guess it's not wrong after all
[19:46] <daftykins> where does 'schedule' enter in?
[19:47] <shauno> that's your dtd
[19:47] <neuro> it still doesn't change the fact that HTML is a markup language, not a programming language
[19:47] <neuro> A DTD is written in XML which is a markup language
[19:47] <shauno> I mean the dtd would be an example of the 'schedule' from which the identifiers are chosen
[19:49] <daftykins> the third (cryptography) definition seems odd - would any of you really use that?
[19:49] <daftykins> i'd have thought 'encrypt' replaced that if it ever was in the common lexicon
[19:49] <ali1234> sure. if i said "coded message" you would know what i meant
[19:49] <neuro> it's still valid though
[19:49] <shauno> code and crypt have specific meanings in cryptography
[19:49] <diddledan__> an ecard? that's their initiative? to teach kids to make an ecard?
[19:49] <daftykins> ali1234: 'coded' != "we should code..."
[19:50] <ali1234> maybe, but this is only wiktionary
[19:50] <daftykins> yeah code = encrypted message, iirc?
[19:50] <shauno> in a 'code' you replace one given with another.  with a cypher you modify each given according to a process
[19:50] <ali1234> if i say "talking in code" you will also know what i mean
[19:51] <diddledan__> ali1234: you're spouting html verbally again?
[19:51] <daftykins> right but again you're trying to compare by using different contexts
[19:51] <ali1234> right, the example given on wiktionary is quite awkward
[19:51] <ali1234> but it is still in common use with that meaning
[19:52] <neuro> focusing on wiktionary specifically is a bit daft
[19:52] <neuro> it's just the first source i went to for a dictionary definition
[19:52] <neuro> you're handwaving away from the key point: HTML is not a programming language
[19:52] <daftykins> sorry yeah i was discussing a bit of a tangent there
[19:53] <neuro> i'm not saying there's no skill to it
[19:53] <daftykins> i agree, they're not the same thing
[19:53] <shauno> it can't be, it doesn't even have <!-- if IE conditionals ;)
[19:53] <neuro> but it's a language of design, not of programming
[19:53] <ali1234> i don't think anyone ever said it was a programming language
[19:53] <ali1234> specifically, it's not turing-complete
[19:54] <diddledan__> actually I'd say CSS is a language of design
[19:54] <neuro> it definitely is
[19:54] <diddledan__> HTML is a language of structure
[19:54] <neuro> and the if IE conditionals are CSS hacks dependent on HTML structure, not part of HTML themselves
[19:54] <shauno> they're not css, but they are hacks.  that was intended in jest.
[19:55] <neuro> they're not part of HTML at any rate
[19:56] <shauno> I used one of those little smiley faces and everything!
[19:56] <neuro> oh
[19:56] <neuro> i thought it was part of your markup
[19:56] <neuro> :D
[19:56] <shauno> oh that wouldn't parse at all
[19:57] <ali1234> there's no point teaching "programming" before data, encoding, and so on
[19:57] <ali1234> it's like teaching writing before speaking
[19:57] <neuro> lol wut
[19:58] <ali1234> or algebra before arithmetic
[19:58] <diddledan__> or even programming before algebra
[19:58] <ali1234> well, quite
[19:58] <ali1234> that's the real problem with this "everyone must learn to code!" stuff
[19:59] <ali1234> how about teaching everyone basic mathematics first?
[19:59] <neuro> i'm pretty sure basic mathematics is already part of the school curriculum
[20:00] <neuro> and gets taught before electives like computing studies
[20:00] <ali1234> currently it does
[20:00] <neuro> ok, so?
[20:00] <neuro> do you think they're going to plonk five year olds in front of Eclipse screaming CODE, CODE NOOOOWWWW! at them?
[20:01] <ali1234> pretty much, yes
[20:01] <ali1234> except it won't be eclipse, it will be scratch
[20:01] <ali1234> probably running on a raspberry pi
[20:03] <neuro> on day one
[20:03] <neuro> suuuuuuure
[20:04] <ali1234> well, what do you think they'll do?
[20:05] <diddledan__> I think the point is the initiative seems to be focusing on "code" rather than "fundamental computing principles" so they're not going to teach the why, just the how
[20:05] <shauno> that's not always a bad place to start
[20:06] <neuro> ALL THESE WORLDS
[20:06] <neuro> ARE YOURS EXCEPT
[20:06] <neuro>     EUROPA
[20:06] <neuro>   ATTEMPT NO
[20:06] <neuro>  LANDINGS THERE
[20:06] <neuro> USE THEM TOGETHER
[20:06] <neuro> USE THEM IN PEACE
[20:07] <diddledan__> yeah we know how that ends. eve eats the apple and convinces adam to also
[20:08] <shauno> a friend was translating a script for something recently.  she asked me "can I use the present continuous tense, or should I use present simple"
[20:08] <shauno> at this point I realised I don't know jack about grammar
[20:08] <diddledan__> lol
[20:08] <daftykins> i only know what sounds right, not all the technical mumbo jumbo =|
[20:08] <shauno> exactly
[20:09] <shauno> I think "just the how" isn't a bad place to start.  leave the 'why' to those that want to continue into CS
[20:09] <neuro> standard education fare
[20:11] <ali1234> i disagree with you there
[20:11] <neuro> surprise :)
[20:12] <ali1234> if you want them to continue into CS, you have to give them a reason why
[20:12] <neuro> that's why schools have career counsellors
[20:12] <ali1234> lololol
[20:13] <shauno> I'm not sure you do.  I think you have to dangle enough into them that those who realise it's "their thing" will grab hold.  and the rest can go get sociology degrees
[20:13] <shauno> erm, in front of them
[20:13] <diddledan__> the kind that think that plumbing is suitable for someone who suggests that they want to be an electronics engineer?
[20:13] <shauno> don't dangle things into them.  that gets you removed from schools.
[20:13] <neuro> lol
[20:13] <diddledan__> (that's a truism, btw. it actually happened to someone I know!)
[20:14] <shauno> I'm failing at multitasking :/
[20:14] <ali1234> consider that knowing what a for-loop is will be completely useless to anyone who does not continue in that field
[20:15] <daftykins> well it's pretty standard that those students you see take an interest you push harder
[20:16] <daftykins> when i had students that thought they were pretty set at something i tried to trip them up with extra challenges as much as possible
[20:16] <diddledan__> yeah, that didn't happen for me
[20:16] <diddledan__> I found my own challenges
[20:16] <daftykins> well this was at further education level, so they'd already chosen that path really
[20:16] <diddledan__> aah
[20:17] <daftykins> potentially dropped out of GCSE etc.
[20:17] <ali1234> i'm not worried about those people. my question is what will all the rest get from this?
[20:17] <diddledan__> it's amazing how many of our brightest people were actually school drop-outs (presumably because they weren't challenged in the right way)
[20:18] <diddledan__> ok so alot of them had got as far as college (americans)
[20:19] <diddledan__> but they failed to finish
[20:19] <daftykins> i like to see it that school taught me to read and write, the rest was pretty much useless as i worked with computers at home myself :)
[20:19] <ali1234> school pretty much failed to even teach me that
[20:19] <daftykins> the acorns we had at secondary school very much did not count
[20:19] <diddledan__> acorn!
[20:20] <diddledan__> yeah the "educational" acorn apps were poor
[20:20] <shauno> I didn't do computing at school.  I wasn't allowed to use anything that was connected to the network, which just left me the bbcs in the maths lab
[20:20] <diddledan__> shauno: you haxx0red them?
[20:20] <diddledan__> the school*
[20:20] <shauno> I apparently did something completely by accident
[20:21] <daftykins> 0o
[20:23] <shauno> anyway.  wish me luck, it seems I'm going to install centos :/
[20:23] <diddledan__> you WHAT?!
[20:23] <diddledan__> that's masochism for ya I guess
[20:30] <daftykins> no, that's gentoo
[20:32] <shauno> I just want a peek at how the other half live.  especially since I'm taking another stab at openstack, and they have a one-liner instead of half a realm of outdated docs
[20:34] <daftykins> you made me interested enough to try a VM
[20:35] <daftykins> mooching 6.5 64-bit from a .se mirror now
[20:35] <daftykins> :D
[20:35] <daftykins> i think i was going to try the latest fedora too
[20:44] <shauno> lol, don't blame me
[20:46] <daftykins> :D
[20:46] <daftykins> ah VM'ing is fun
[20:46] <daftykins> just waiting for this 4.2GB DVD to come down O_O
[20:46] <daftykins> makes even my 40Mb seem slow
[20:47] <shauno> pft, there's a 'minimal'.  I always go small
[20:47] <daftykins> i should've read, heh
[20:49] <shauno> reminds me, I really wish ubuntu would do something clever with squid-deb-proxy during the install
[20:49] <neuro> what would that do?
[20:50] <daftykins> yeah how'd that benefit a single install?
[20:50] <shauno> it wouldn't benefit a single install.  but I can't see how it'd hurt to pick it up if it sees avahi announcing a deb mirror on the lan
[20:51] <neuro> sounds like an edge case to me
[20:53] <shauno> eh, at least on -server the installer still asks if you want to use a http proxy.  I can't see why it's a huge leap to not have to ask if the answer's already there
[20:58] <daftykins> think i spotted a typo in Anaconda
[20:58] <daftykins> :D
[20:59] <diddledan__> well done
[20:59] <neuro> bug report ;)
[20:59] <daftykins> heh - yeah i'll try once i confirm it
[20:59] <daftykins> i hit next as i saw it
[20:59] <diddledan__> do we really want to help the enema?
[20:59] <diddledan__> :-p
[20:59] <daftykins> i wouldn't say i was even firmly in camp ubuntu if i'm honest
[21:00] <neuro> tsk ;)
[21:00] <diddledan__> ooh, you blasphemer!
[21:00] <neuro> "enema"
[21:00] <daftykins> that's dan's humour for you
[21:00] <daftykins> ;)
[21:00] <neuro> ba dum tsh
[21:01] <diddledan__> I feel I'm too well known around these parts :-D
[21:01] <daftykins> XD
[21:01] <daftykins> you'll have to come up with a new nick
[21:01] <shauno> no no don't
[21:01] <diddledan__> dopeydick?
[21:01] <neuro> danbuntu
[21:01] <shauno> you'll end up with the honey monster ruining the last vestiges of your childhood
[21:02] <diddledan__> or would that be too obvious?
[21:02] <diddledan__> yes, the honeymonster is a fave
[21:02]  * diddledan__ monster mashes shauno 
[21:03] <neuro> spock beats monster
[21:03] <diddledan__> oh myyy
[21:03] <neuro> :)
[21:03] <diddledan__> is that a pon fhar thing?
[21:03] <neuro> can't help but hear that in takei's voice
[21:03] <diddledan__> speelign
[21:04] <neuro> pon farr

[21:04] <diddledan__> yey
[21:04] <shauno> I didn't realise quite how loud this server is, until I turned the TV on and couldn't hear it :/
[21:05] <diddledan__> shauno: you have a server at home? that's almost on my level (I still have three proliants in the other room, just dormant)
[21:05] <shauno> a 1950 and a 2950, supposedely temporarily
[21:05] <neuro> ouch
[21:05] <diddledan__> I really should fire them up at some point to see if they still work
[21:06] <diddledan__> the Gentoo on there must be ancient and a bit now
[21:06] <neuro> crowdpleasers
[21:06] <shauno> but they're just under my desk, because my other room has a bed in it.  and poweredge & sleep don't go together well
[21:06] <diddledan__> I wonder if I could bring the install up-to-date
[21:06] <neuro> i wouldn't bother
[21:06] <neuro> ime upgrading gentoo is a proper pain
[21:06] <diddledan__> I've got a walk-in cupboard which serves nicely as a serverroom
[21:07] <shauno> I've got a walk-in cupboard that some joker installed a bathroom in.  but hey, the cheapest rent around
[21:07] <diddledan__> lol
[21:07] <diddledan__> cheap ftw
[21:08] <diddledan__> can you not dual-purpose it?
[21:08] <shauno> not easily.  ireland frowns on putting electrical outlets in the bathroom
[21:08] <diddledan__> bah
[21:08] <neuro> would lead to an interesting redefinition of "bog standard server"
[21:09] <shauno> I don't fancy the humidity from the shower either
[21:09] <diddledan__> the handles on the proliants I have would make for a useful straining bar
[21:11] <shauno> okay, 20 minutes sat at 'Testing if puppet apply is finished'.  This is not going as advertised
[21:12] <diddledan__> o_O
[21:12] <diddledan__> I think it broke
[21:15] <shauno> I really need to turn this stuff on more often.  the server came up quicker than the dhcp server, the router's booting into romon ..
[21:21] <diddledan__> romon?
[21:23] <shauno> rommon, remote monitor I think .. it's where a cisco router lands you if it didn't boot the OS
[21:24] <diddledan__> oic
[21:38] <bigcalm> What's happening kids?
[21:39] <daftykins> just reminded myself of how ugly a default CentOS looks!
[21:40] <shauno> you have gnome?
[21:41] <daftykins> yeah, all defaults
[21:42] <shauno> not sure I'm quite *that* bored ;)
[21:42] <daftykins> XD
[21:51] <brobostigon> very cool, a pebble twitter client, :)
[22:05] <shauno> awwww.  don't try to netinstall on ipv6-only.  it never asks for a dns server, and then dies
[22:06] <ali1234> shauno: i cracked it. recording the websdr (with the record button on the page) and then playing the result back through mplayer doesn't warp
[22:06] <ali1234> even though the audio it actually played during recording did come out warped
[22:06] <ali1234> identical pulseaudio path too
[22:07] <shauno> hm, I think I really need to be not using a loopback cable for this then
[22:07] <ali1234> you need pulseaudio so you can route direct :)
[22:07] <shauno> haaaa
[22:07] <ali1234> or you need to just record to a file instead of pumping it out the sound card
[22:07] <shauno> I need linux's sound systems like a hole in the head
[22:08] <ali1234> i know right, who ever thought this thing would actually turn out to be useful for something?
[22:09] <shauno> sorry, that's been a sore spot ever since oss & esd starting playing fisticuffs, and then alsa came along and started stabbing them in the back while they were distracted
[22:10] <shauno> and I've never been given the impression it's got much better
[22:10] <ali1234> then pulseaudio showed up and started throwing poop at everyone, lol
[22:13] <ali1234> btw, am i infringing copyright by uploading these maps on imagebin?
[22:14] <ali1234> http://imagebin.org/291345
[22:14] <shauno> I don't believe so; they're intended for public dissemination
[22:15] <shauno> and they're usually pretty good at stamping 'crown copyright' on anything and everything otherwise
[22:15] <shauno> and that is pretty decent.  interesting
[22:16] <shauno> fwiw, ubuntu's install seems to handle ipv6 much better than centos'.  I still had some issues last time, but .. not quite this silly
[22:17] <ali1234> i was surprised when it detected our printer on ipv6... i didn't even know the printer had ipv6
[22:17] <ali1234> i didn't even know ubuntu had ipv6
[22:18] <shauno> if I tell it to go ipv6 only, it never gives me a chance to give it dns info.  if I let it go dual-stack, it can't find the server the images live on because that name only resolves to v6
[22:25] <ali1234> http://al.robotfuzz.com/~al/random/wefax.png http://al.robotfuzz.com/~al/random/wefax.wav for reference
[22:25] <ali1234> you'll need to skip the first 5 minutes or so of the wav. don't want to even edit it in case it resamples or something
[22:26] <shauno> 403/forbidden
[22:26] <ali1234> hmm, really?
[22:26] <shauno> the image works fine, not the wav
[22:27] <ali1234> that's odd, i copied them both with scp at the same time
[22:27] <ali1234> but they have different permissions on the server
[22:28] <ali1234> fixed
[22:28] <shauno> ta
[22:29] <shauno> heh, fldigi needs a fast-forward button
[22:30] <ali1234> also for reference, this is what fldigi made of the live playback through firefox, of exactly the same thing: http://al.robotfuzz.com/~al/random/wefax-bad.png
[22:30] <shauno> right; that looks familiar
[22:30] <ali1234> so yeah... temporal jitter caused by something inside html5 or firefox in my case, perhaps just too high cpu load, who knows
[22:31] <ali1234> i might try chrome... or maybe write my own UI for the websdr stream :)