[00:01] <phillw> belkinsa: as long as you promise not to tell anyone.... I will help you with both docs and classroom sessions. you know where to find me.
[00:11] <pleia2> belkinsa: oh yes, go for it
[00:12] <belkinsa> Thanks again.
[00:16] <belkinsa> knome, ping.
[00:17] <knome> pong
[00:18] <belkinsa> You are the one that designed the menu header item for the Doc Team's pages, right?
[00:28] <slickymaster> anf the one for NewDocs
[00:28] <slickymaster> s/anf/abd
[00:28] <slickymaster> bah :P
[00:28] <slickymaster> and ^^
[00:29] <belkinsa> Trying to work one out and I'm failing for some reason, if you saw, knome.
[00:30] <knome> nope, but i can look at it
[00:30] <knome> which one?
[00:31] <belkinsa> This is one: DocumentationTeam/MenuBar, is the one that I basing the NewDocs one off of.
[00:32] <knome> where's the NewDocs one?
[00:32] <belkinsa> This is the blank page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs/Header
[00:32] <belkinsa> I tried it but ended up ditching the header.
[00:32] <knome> aha
[00:32] <knome> what do you want to link from it?
[00:33] <belkinsa> Homepage: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs/HomePage Workflow: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs/WorkflowPage
[00:33] <belkinsa> What else, slickymaster?
[00:33] <belkinsa> Oh!  The icon of NewDocs: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs/Icons
[00:34] <slickymaster> hmm https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs/ContactPage <---
[00:34] <belkinsa> That too.
[00:36] <slickymaster> belkinsa: above the Category tage you should have 4 hyphens, not 3
[00:38] <knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs/Header
[00:38] <knome> that's the skeleton
[00:38] <knome> how do you like it styled?
[00:38] <belkinsa> I don't see it.
[00:38] <belkinsa> And I will fix that slickymaster.
[00:38] <knome> hard refresh
[00:38] <knome> ctrl+shift+R
[00:38] <belkinsa> I got it.
[00:38] <belkinsa> F5 = that, knome?
[00:39] <knome> that's not exactly the same
[00:39] <knome> ctrl+shift+R purges the browser cache for that page
[00:39] <belkinsa> I see.
[00:39] <knome> and reloads all images and linked files again
[00:40] <belkinsa> The header is good so far but did you add the icon image yet?
[00:40] <slickymaster> belkinsa: no need to. I alreday done that
[00:40] <belkinsa> Okay, for the image or the tag?
[00:40] <slickymaster> hey looks great knome
[00:41] <slickymaster> thanks for leaning a helpful hand
[00:41] <belkinsa> yes, thank you.
[00:41] <knome> aha, so you want to add the newdocs icon to the header?
[00:41] <slickymaster> belkinsa: the tag
[00:41] <knome> are you sure you want to use that image? ;)
[00:41] <knome> the 14x14 px version doesn't look like... much
[00:42] <belkinsa> slickymaster, thanks and the icon image is up to you.  I was just thinking of the Doc Team's header menu object.
[00:42] <slickymaster> hey knome that image took me almost a afternnon to put together
[00:42] <knome> awwh :)
[00:42] <knome> i would have poked an icon theme and see for an existing icon
[00:42] <belkinsa> We have 96^2'd and 172^2'd also.
[00:42] <slickymaster> but I'm not a graphical designer and suck at gimp :P
[00:43] <knome> belkinsa, i know, i'm looking at the icons page
[00:43] <belkinsa> Er, 96 x 96 pi.
[00:47] <knome> sooooo... how do you like that styled?
[00:47] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: Are you still looking for me? I know it is now very late for you.
[00:47] <knome> color?
[00:48] <belkinsa> I think the basic color that the Doc Team uses since NewDocs is a part of the Docs.
[00:48] <belkinsa> If that made any sense.
[00:49] <knome> if you're thinking like that, why not links the docs under the main docs header?
[00:49] <slickymaster> hmmm I think that NewDocs never even thought about that
[00:49] <belkinsa> As in?
[00:49] <belkinsa> I was told that once, slickymaster/.
[00:49] <knome> belkinsa, include NewDocs as an item to the DocumentationTeam banner
[00:50] <slickymaster> that sounds a vet good idea knome
[00:50] <belkinsa> Sure, I think that might be needed.
[00:50] <slickymaster> s/vet/very
[00:50] <belkinsa> Well, is very, very needed.
[00:50] <knome> also thinking how high traffic the irc channel is? while i wouldn't mind to be on that channel, i try to limit channels, so... meh :/
[00:51] <knome> this channel isn't too busy either
[00:51] <belkinsa> Most the channels that I'm in are quiet.
[00:52]  * slickymaster goes back to what he was doing
[00:52] <knome> slickymaster, nooo
[00:52] <belkinsa> +1 ^^^
[00:52] <slickymaster> :)
[00:52] <knome> slickymaster, unless that's convincing unit for the next XPL ;)
[00:52] <slickymaster> :) that's where I was returning to :)
[00:53] <knome> i always encourage new people to contribute any way they want to, but on the other hand, more bureaucracy is.. meh
[00:53] <knome> slickymaster, did you look more closely to that... output i gave you?
[00:53] <slickymaster> sorry, wasn't here
[00:54] <knome> slickymaster, you are misunderstanding. we had a PM some time ago
[00:54] <slickymaster> yes, I remember
[00:54] <slickymaster> hey wait
[00:55] <slickymaster> to which one are you referering?
[00:55] <knome> haha
[00:55] <knome> let me dig that up...
[00:57] <knome> building...
[00:57] <knome> humpf
[00:58] <knome> http://temp.knome.fi/temp/docs/docs-popular.html
[00:59] <slickymaster> ah, well I must say that that listing raise quite some drama among the ranks
[00:59] <belkinsa> Brb- dinner.
[00:59] <knome> well that's raw data, not an opinion ;)
[01:00] <slickymaster> it was hard for some to understand what it was and how it could be worked with
[01:00] <slickymaster> but step by step I manage to tutuor them and they are know actually using it as a aid in NewDocs
[01:00] <knome> ok, cool
[01:01] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: I'm here. :)
[01:01] <knome> so how do you think about putting newdocs under the general docs banner?
[01:01] <slickymaster> I think it would be a great bump for the project
[01:02] <slickymaster> but I'm not NewDocs lead, I have always been kind of in the background providing a more technical view on what should be added or/and removed
[01:02] <knome> i know it might be a bit touchy for some, but the name isn't really descriptive..
[01:03] <knome> are the leading people (ever) on IRC?
[01:03] <slickymaster> and editing in the comminity wiki page
[01:03] <dsmythies> Gunnarhj: I was away from my desk for a moment.
[01:03] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Me too.
[01:03] <slickymaster> nopes,they don't use it
[01:04] <slickymaster> they are more into the forums
[01:04] <knome> slickymaster, do you think there would be any chance to schedule a sprint with them?
[01:04] <slickymaster> I can try
[01:05] <knome> i think it would be a good idea to sit down together and actually talk between the newdocs team and other people who are working with the wiki, like some admins here (me, pleia2)
[01:05] <slickymaster> I'll contact them to see if they're willing and their availability
[01:05] <belkinsa> Back.  slickymaster, maybe need to pass this header and the linking of our team and the NewDocs to BlinkyCat?
[01:05] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: What's up?
[01:05] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: I get the impression that outdated items are stripped from the PO files in the package, but that they are otherwise the same.
[01:05] <slickymaster> I agree with you knome
[01:05] <belkinsa> Or the whole team...
[01:06] <knome> slickymaster, can also set up a doodle poll to find out what times would work for them
[01:06] <slickymaster> belkinsa: ^^^
[01:06] <knome> in what timezones are they?
[01:06] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: So they seem to be synced somehow.
[01:06] <belkinsa> Okay, that works also.  But getting them on IRC is the problem and timezones.
[01:06] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I agree (now and finally) except for the dates 2011 Vs 2013.
[01:06] <slickymaster> australia, states (don't remember which state
[01:07] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Yeah, I noticed those dates. But they don't mean anything in practice.
[01:07] <belkinsa> But I think she is in EST.
[01:07] <knome> getting them in IRC would only be posting them a webchat link.
[01:07] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: The POT file update yesterday thew me off. I can fix the dates amnaully
[01:07] <belkinsa> So, -5 GMT.
[01:07] <belkinsa> knome, yeah, but it's something else: they are forum folks not IRC folks.
[01:08] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I think I know how to proceed...
[01:08] <knome> belkinsa, i understand that. forums aren't a very effective way to discuss things with people though...
[01:08] <belkinsa> Agreed.
[01:08] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: ?
[01:09] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I'll add the missing languges, take the PO files from "Package" 44 from no subdirectory and 24 from subdirectory and commit.
[01:09] <slickymaster> I'v already set them up with personalized links to freenode, including the their nick's and channels names
[01:09] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Sounds good to me.
[01:09] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: If I mess up, somehow, we'll revert.
[01:09] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: I suppose that the fact that some of them are outside subdirs doesn't mean anything.
[01:10] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I still hope to hear from dpm on that. It makes no sense to me and I do not like things that do not make sense.
[01:10] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: I think we proceed as you suggest, request an upload and see what happens.
[01:11] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I'll do my part, then you can do the changelog and go from there.
[01:11] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Why are you working with Ubuntu then? ;-)
[01:11] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: lol lol lol
[01:11]  * slickymaster is going to smoke the last cigarette of the day
[01:11] <knome> slickymaster, belkinsa: anyone of them around right now?
[01:12] <belkinsa> Dunno.
[01:12] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: Sorry for the delays. Yesterday things were very confused.
[01:12] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Agreed. If you fix the POs, I'll update the changelog tomorrow and ping some core-dev.
[01:12] <slickymaster> BlinkinCat might be
[01:12] <slickymaster> Ĩ'l take a look in the forum~
[01:13] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Really no need for you to apologize.
[01:13] <slickymaster> yes, he's listed as being online
[01:14] <belkinsa> BlinkyCat?
[01:14] <slickymaster> yes
[01:14] <slickymaster> knome: I'll PM via the forum to see if he'd mind to come here
[01:15] <knome> sure :)
[01:22] <slickymaster> belkinsa:if you please read the logs to catch up on what I and knome were discussing
[01:22] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: One more thing: Shouldn't we go to https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/trusty/+source/ubuntu-docs/+sharing-details and remove the links to the project?
[01:22] <slickymaster> knome: sent
[01:22] <knome> slickymaster, ta
[01:23]  * slickymaster now s really going to smoke the last cigarette of the day
[01:24] <slickymaster> hey BlinkinCat good morning to you
[01:24] <slickymaster> night to us
[01:24] <knome> o hai!
[01:26] <slickymaster> knome, belkinsa he's over at #ubuntu-newdocs
[01:27] <slickymaster> is easier for us to go there than for him to come here
[01:38] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I'll bounce all of this off dpm (already started, actually) and solicite his opinion.
[01:42] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Good. But I have a feeling that dpm does not know about the package related details. He isn't a computing engineer.
[01:42] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: Oh.
[01:43] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: You often encounter that problem. Very few - if any - have the whole picture.
[01:43] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: So in this case I'd say that we will probably need to figure out some stuff ourselves.
[01:43] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: O.K.
[02:25] <belkinsa> pleia2, do you accept .doc files?  Because I'm thinking about doing my outline in LO Writer.
[02:26] <knome> why no .odr
[02:26] <knome> *odt
[02:27] <belkinsa> Because my LO is set to .doc for the ease for everyone at my school.
[02:31] <knome> heh
[02:32]  * knome shakes head
[02:33] <knome> belkinsa, go to sleep. you're tired.
[02:33] <knome> belkinsa, you just sent a mail about mailing list prefixes, then sent another mail without one :)
[02:35] <belkinsa> Carp, I did.  But!  It's not official yet.
[04:01] <pleia2> belkinsa: fine by me
[15:51] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: ping?
[16:44] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I am here, but didn't notice your "ping" until now.
[16:44] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Ok..
[16:44] <GunnarHj> Did you see that I can't approve those two imports?
[16:45] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Guess it's because they have your name on them...
[16:45] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: Yes, but I wonder if I just explained what to do poorly. I just sent you and e-mail with screen shots.
[16:46] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: For sure it is not becuase I did the commit.
[16:48] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Done. :)
[16:49] <dsmythies> GunnarhJ: Great.
[16:49] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: What I did was clicking the yellow thing to the right...
[16:50] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: And there was the approve option greyed out.
[16:50] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Anyway, this little issue resolved now. Thanks!
[16:50] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: Yes, that is what I guessed just a moment before I was going to send that e-mail, so I did the screen shot stuff to clarify.
[16:51] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: So, are we ready to go now?
[16:53] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: Yes, I think so. Myself, I would like to export the POs again from the "project", just to observe if the new languages end up in subdirectories.
[16:54] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: And maybe just to observe/confirm that they are O.K>
[16:54] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Do you mean before the upload?
[16:55] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Isn't that one of the things that will be examined via the upload?
[16:56] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I think you can proceed, and I'll do my bit when I have time.
[16:56] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I'm talking about within the "project" only type stuff.
[16:57] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Ok.
[16:58] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: I'll check if seb128 is still on line. It's a little late in Europe, so he may have left. In that case I'll wait until Monday.
[16:59] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I didn't do the changelog for this latest bit.
[17:00] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Saw that. I'll do it.
[17:00] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: O.K. (it was on purpose, as I wanted you to do it.)
[17:01] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Thought so.
[17:01] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: But going forward, I think we should consider to update the changelog together with each commit.
[17:02] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: No. And there is a long thread about this from last cycle. I'll try to find it and forward it to you.
[17:03] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Ok, discussed before... ;-)
[17:15] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: I pushed the changelog and talked with seb128, who will upload soon. :)
[17:33] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: Thanks for the update.
[17:33] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: np
[17:34] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Now let's just hope that nothing goes wrong...
[17:35] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: But I'm really glad that we do this now, i.e. not waiting untill after March 20.
[18:00] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I didn't see your previous two comments until now, but agree. The today PO files export  (project) all have proper sub-directories. The content is quite changed though, but seems like O.K. changes. Some of it seems to be re-wrapping of lines. More on that later today (I don't have time now).
[18:27] <cprofitt> hello all
[19:56] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: Are you still here?
[19:56] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Yep.
[19:57] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: I haven't had the guts to look at the PO stuff yet. Have you?
[19:57] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: For example, French statsu should have moved to about 121 string to translate, but hasn't. Maybe a launchpad propegation delay, but also see stuff held in queue here:
[19:58] <dsmythies> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/trusty/+source/ubuntu-docs/+imports
[19:59] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Don't you think we should wait a few hours - maybe a day - and let LP do its things?
[19:59] <belkinsa> Hey therem cprofitt.
[19:59] <belkinsa> there,*
[20:00] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: O.K. but "needs review" I think means manual intervention required. In this case, "package", I do not have rights. On the "project", I do.
[20:01] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: I'm not sure of that. I think there is some automatic "review" taking place. But that may take some time.
[20:01] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: O.K.
[20:02] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: So my suggestion is that we check the status again tomorrow and talk then about how to proceed (if there is anything left to do).
[20:03] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I am not familar with "package" delay times. I watch "project" dellay times very closely. Thay are much much faster than they used to be. O.K. on tomorrow to pick it up.
[20:05] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: My experience is *very* limited. But I translated a few strings for the lightdm package, and noticed that my manual import first resulted in "needs review" but was imported a few hours later. And I don't think that any human did anything.
[20:07] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: O.K. My only expericne is with the ones that sit forever in the import queue without manual help. So we'll see tomorrow.
[20:07] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: We will.
[20:07] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Btw, do you think the message to ubuntu-translators was clear enough?
[20:08] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: Yes.
[20:09] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Great!
[20:39] <shaunm_> when's the next version of ubuntu, and what version of yelp will it include?
[20:44] <GunnarHj> shaunm_: Next release is in April, and currently we have yelp 3.10.1-1ubuntu1 in the archive.
[20:58] <shaunm_> GunnarHj: cool
[20:58] <GunnarHj> shaunm_: Enough current version?
[20:59] <shaunm_> I'm trying to get 3.12 to follow the GNOME 3 designs. I suspect that's going to make it less suitable as the help viewer under Unity.
[21:00] <shaunm_> I want to work on making the UI adapt so that it fits the Unity designs when run under Unity, but feature freeze for GNOME is Monday.
[21:00] <shaunm_> So if Ubuntu just skips 3.12 entirely, I can get some Unity design work in for 3.14, and everybody wins.
[21:03] <GunnarHj> shaunm_: Hmm.. Wonder who should have that info. The package is maintained in Ubuntu by "Ubuntu Developers", i.e. no individual maintainer.
[21:03] <GunnarHj> shaunm_: Guess the doc team should try to keep our eyes open. ;-)
[21:08] <GunnarHj> Hi belkinsa!
[21:08] <belkinsa> Hey there, GunnarHj..
[21:08] <GunnarHj> belkinsa: Why not just go ahead and change https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki ?
[21:08] <belkinsa> Sure, but I think I want feedback first.
[21:09] <GunnarHj> belkinsa: That change is so obvious so it shouldn't be necessary.
[21:10] <belkinsa> Alright
[21:10] <GunnarHj> :)
[21:10] <belkinsa> On it.
[21:11] <belkinsa> And done.
[21:11] <belkinsa> dsmythies, you should be aware of this change.
[21:11] <pleia2> belkinsa: I also don't think we need to "notify the community" of the change, it's really central to docs and it's automatic+transparent for anyone who visists help.ubuntu.com/community
[21:12] <pleia2> it's really just a syncing up of our naming
[21:12] <belkinsa> Gotcha.
[21:12] <belkinsa> (Even I have the fear of doing something)
[21:12] <pleia2> fear of doing something?
[21:13] <belkinsa> Editing a page is what I meant and causing a uproar.
[21:13] <pleia2> GunnarHj's right, it's a good change
[21:44] <dsmythies> belkinsa: Thanks for the heads up.
[21:44] <belkinsa> Not a problem.
[21:46] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: shaunm_: We are not asking for a change to yelp version for upcoming release. We are wanting (must have) newer yelp-tools and yelp-xsl, as per the two bug reports I put in and set to "critical" a couple of weeks ago (to 3.11. something)
[21:51] <GunnarHj> dsmythies, shaunm_: I just talked with Iain Lane, and he said that the Ubuntu developers are told to not upgrade to GNOME 3.12 for any package before the 14.04 release. So possibly we will have the burden of proof to make them upgrade to 3.11.
[21:53] <shaunm_> dsmythies: it's safe to upgrade to yelp-xsl and yelp-tools 3.12 while leaving yelp at 3.10
[21:54] <GunnarHj> shaunm_: No depencency issues?
[21:54] <GunnarHj> dependency
[21:56] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: shaunm_: I have been running yelp-tools and yelp-xsl 3.11.3 and 3.11.5 (cann't recall the order of which version goes where) with whatever yelp comes with 14.04 for a few weeks now.
[21:56] <dsmythies> shaunm_: You know all this.
[21:58] <shaunm_> GunnarHj: not in that direction
[21:58] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: see: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/yelp-xsl/+bug/1276227 and https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/yelp-tools/+bug/1276230
[21:58] <ubot2`> Launchpad bug 1276227 in yelp-xsl (Ubuntu) "Version >= 3.11.5 needed for Trusty" [Critical,New]
[21:58] <ubot2`> Launchpad bug 1276230 in yelp-tools (Ubuntu) "Version >= 3.11.3 needed for Trusty" [Critical,New]
[21:58] <shaunm_> yelp updates sometimes require yelp-xsl updates, but almost never the other way around
[22:02] <GunnarHj> shaunm_: Ok, thanks. Then it shouldn't be a problem to have 3.11 or 3.12 of yelp-(xsl/tools) in the archive, I suppose.
[22:05] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Looked at those bug reports. "Critical" is not correct, I think, if you study the guidelines for setting importance. The packages are not shipped by default, but only installed as needed. So I would think that to get those upgrades in we'd better prepare the necessary MPs.
[22:11] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I did review the guidelines, and they are needed now and so thought cricial was apprpriate. I was trying to beat the debian import freeze deadline (now long past) becuase such stuff typically goes via debian first (acccording to Kevin). I have no intention of doing whatever MP's, at some point someone else has to to stuff. I'm overloaded.
[22:12] <knome> pleia2, do we further want to change the wording on https://help.ubuntu.com/? Says "community contributed documentation" on the link now
[22:12] <dsmythies> knome: I was wondering that also.
[22:12] <knome> i mean, we probably do... but what text should replace that?
[22:13] <belkinsa> knome, +1
[22:13] <knome> "... visit the community help wiki for..." ?
[22:13] <pleia2> knome: +1
[22:13] <knome> ok, i'll reply on the ticket
[22:13] <pleia2> knome: wait, don't we manage that?
[22:13] <knome> do we?
[22:13] <dsmythies> knome: and was about to update help.ubuntu.com anyhow as I didn't get around to the 13.04 EOL deletions yet.
[22:14] <pleia2> I think dsmythies does :)
[22:14] <dsmythies> pleia2: Yes we do.
[22:14] <knome> ah, then ping dsmythies :P
[22:14] <knome> great.
[22:14] <belkinsa> Also, are we going to a have vUDS session for this upcoming one?
[22:14] <knome> i've bugged the IS enough during the last month
[22:15] <pleia2> I can't participate in mid-cycle UDSes
[22:15] <knome> i can't participate in fake-UDSses (:
[22:16] <dsmythies> knome or anybody. However, I looked at help.ubuntu.com a few hours ago and don't know what to change to what.
[22:17] <knome> dsmythies, says now:
[22:17] <knome> If you don't find what you are looking for, visit the community contributed documentation for even more material!
[22:17] <knome> dsmythies, should say:
[22:17] <knome> If you don't find what you are looking for, visit the community help wiki for even more material!
[22:18] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Does debian has a plan to upgrade from 3.10.1-1 soon? Or are you suggesting that we would make an exception and bypass Debian in this case?
[22:19] <dsmythies> knome: Aghh: The glue level html pages then. O.K. easy. It will be published after I do the 13.04 deletions stuff.
[22:21] <knome> cheers :)
[22:24] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I looked up the minatainers of both Ubuntu and Debian yelp-tools and yelp-xsl, and some were the same. So I had hoped that the bug reports would be enough to get some traction. It appears it wasn't. I was not trying to by pass Debian in this case, and originally there was lots of time, but I lost a bunch due to 14.04 development issues breaking my VM's. Anyway, it got to be now and I don't know what to do. I'll have to re-assess I guess.
[22:25] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: shaun put some stuff in particulary to address our upsteam problem reports. I had hoped to include in the LTS release from the start.
[22:26] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: I'll take a look at the sources...
[22:27] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: Re: changlog stuff from earlier today. See: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2013-September/017776.html (the whole thread).
[22:27] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Right, I already read that thread.
[22:28] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Actually I'm not convinced.
[22:29] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: You can well have a changelog entry UNRELEASED and add lines to it when committing.
[22:31] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: The advantage of doing so is that when you commit something (your own change or merging someone else's MP) you are completely up to date with the nature of the change, and it's easy to add a proper wording. If somebody does it afterwards, s/he needs to read up on the topic to be able to know what to write in the changelog. That's not very effective.
[22:33] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: Well, I do not know what to say here. I thought we drove this topic to conlusion. We can re-open the discussion. Myself, I'm against it.
[22:34] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: What makes you be against it?
[22:37] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: It's not a big deal for me. But to be honest it took me several hours to update the changelog. Maybe I was too careful, but I took pains in getting all the LP: #xxxxxxx in, for instance.
[22:41] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I'll forward you an e-mail in a moment.
[22:41] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Ok.
[22:43] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: As regards yelp-tools and yelp-xsl: We have exactly the same stuff in the archive as Debian unstable. Maybe we should talk to somebody about the possibilities to upgrade.
[22:45] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Bug reports don't always get the attention they deserve. Since there are far too many of them compared to the available developer resources.
[22:48] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: Agreed, and I know. I simply have not had to capactity to follow up since I entered the bug reports.
[22:49] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Don't we all have some loose ends... ;-)
[22:56] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Read the e-mail.
[22:59] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: I feel we are currently dealing with things that may have caused frustration in the past. :)
[22:59] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: But I suggest that we drop the changelog discussion for now. Maybe next cycle...
[23:00] <knome> i'd like to read a mail that speaks for not updating changelogs as you go as well...
[23:01] <dsmythies> knome: most of the discussion is in the thread I gave a link to above.
[23:01] <knome> ok, i'll look there
[23:02] <dsmythies> knome: We relied on input from Matthew East on the sbuject. However GunnarHj has a point as to how long it took him to update it.
[23:03] <knome> i mostly tell people to update the changelog as they go
[23:03] <knome> ultimately, when we're closer to release, it's easier to make it look a bit better
[23:03] <knome> than start looking at diffs
[23:10] <GunnarHj> I think the changelog is not just a formality. It's a way to give people who fixed bugs public credit for their work, and as regards packagex (ubuntu) bug tasks, the LP: #xxxxxxx entries result in those tasks autmatically be marked as "Fix released".
[23:12] <knome> GunnarHj, when the package is uploaded.
[23:12] <knome> GunnarHj, but not when it's merged.
[23:12] <GunnarHj> knome: Right, when uploaded.
[23:13] <knome> i don't see any problem bugs that are fixed and merged in a branch that is used to built packages for the current release, marked fix committed
[23:14] <GunnarHj> knome: That sentence is not easy to parse. ;-)
[23:14] <knome> lol, i'll rephras
[23:15] <knome> if bugfixes are in a branch, which is the source for a package,
[23:15] <knome> i don't see any problem with the respective bugs marked "fix committed"
[23:16] <knome> ultimately, the UNRELEASED status makes it obivious that the bugfixes aren't *released*
[23:16] <knome> failure to release bugfixes that are waiting in a branch that only needs an upload is another story
[23:16] <GunnarHj> knome: No, before the package *upload*, "Fix committed" is the correct status, I think.
[23:17] <knome> GunnarHj, ...which is what the bugs will have
[23:17] <knome> they're marked "fix released" only after upload+release is done
[23:18] <GunnarHj> knome: I know - did you think I said something else?
[23:18] <knome> no
[23:18] <knome> i guess we're agreeing here
[23:18] <GunnarHj> me too
[23:19] <knome> i fail to see arguments against building the changelog up as we go
[23:21] <knome> we encourage people to update the changelog when they've done changes to the documentation, and tell them to use common sense if something needs an entry in the bugfix (IMO, "fixed a typo" doesn't)
[23:21] <knome> practically we still see if the changelog correlates with reality when uploading
[23:28] <dsmythies> knome: belkinsa: I am now going to to help.ubuntu.com in two steps. Please see step one, I think I got them all (except 13.04, because it will be deleted in step 2 anyhow): http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/help.ubuntu.com/revision/116
[23:29] <belkinsa> You still have 10.04
[23:29] <dsmythies> Yes, for serverguide
[23:29] <belkinsa> Oh.
[23:29] <knome> is "the excellent source of community help wiki" fluent?
[23:29] <dsmythies> Dekstop is EOL and has been deleted.
[23:30] <dsmythies> knome: huh?
If you can't find what you are looking for here, try the excellent source of <a href="https://help.ubuntu.com/community" target="_top">community help wiki</a>.</p>
[23:30] <knome> that's what 13.10 and previous say
[23:31] <knome> i would probably just s/try the excellent source of/visit the/
[23:32] <dsmythies> knome: O.K.
[23:32] <knome> (as it stands in the current index.html anyway)
[23:32] <knome> otherwise, ack
[23:41] <dsmythies> knome: see: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/help.ubuntu.com/revision/117
[23:41] <knome> dsmythies, ACK
[23:41] <knome> looks good
[23:42] <belkinsa> All, sorry for that last e-mail, if it's too hard to read.
[23:47] <dsmythies> knome: I forgot that you automatically get e-mails about changes to help.ubuntu.com anyhow, as I just saw in my inbox.
[23:48] <knome> dsmythies, not the frontpage though