[01:58] help [01:59] you may want to be more specific, camflox ;) [01:59] ok sorry [02:00] lg l5 support ubuntu touch ? [02:03] I'm not sure. You could try searching xda-dev [02:05] i found port on 4pda but deleted links (sorry my bad english) [02:32] How are the flo system images coming? === _salem is now known as salem_ === salem_ is now known as _salem [04:12] Hi all [04:13] first time here. Is there anyone here? Any developers? [04:14] Will ubuntu phones support B.A.T.M.A.N. or 802.11s mesh network? [04:14] speak of the devil [04:14] crocket, i just asked a question for same thing (related) [04:14] no one answered. [04:14] actually, I had not asked question, but i do mesh networking [04:15] getting straight answer to my question is like pulling teeth [04:17] my best guess so far is that Ubuntu is doing the same as Android [04:17] HelloThere, fuck shit [04:17] ? [04:17] Fucking mobile phone makers [04:17] yep [04:18] it's amazing that they have gotten away with it for so long. [04:18] I'm sure Verizon is helping in one way or another. [04:18] HelloThere, Why don't you make a company that builds mesh network capable smartphones? [04:18] hmm...interesting idea. :) [04:18] Fork ubuntu or android. [04:19] HelloThere, What about Jolla? [04:19] i thought about that probably 1,000 times. [04:19] they are the same. [04:19] they say one thing, do another. [04:19] wait [04:20] my bad, take that back. I did ask Jolla, and Jolla said that there were making a truly, truly open phone. [04:20] but they might not be successful. the problem is the telco's in the USA. [04:20] I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to enable batman on Ubuntu Touch. [04:21] RAOF, we're listening [04:21] You'd probably need to rebuild the kernel and the image to enable the batman-adv module, but that's fairly standard. [04:21] i got something that I need to clear up with Ubunt Touch. [04:21] thats' what I was about to say. [04:22] in a nutshell, I do want my 10,000 customers rooting (or anything else) there phones. [04:22] right now, if I want to give one of my customers a Linux application, they can install it. quick. easy. no problem. [04:22] I want the same thing for a smartphone. [04:22] Click packages would do that. [04:22] ok. [04:23] But you can't do that for kernel modules. [04:23] what about user-space models that interface with system-level primitives. [04:23] *modules [04:24] my guess is "no" [04:24] If you want it in the software centre or app store or whatever it is we're calling it then it'll need the appropriate AppArmour permissions (or a manual review), but it's just userspace code. Go nuts. [04:24] are you with Ubuntu? [04:25] Yeah, but not in this particular area; I work on Mir. [04:25] oh [04:25] you could help me out greatly, then,... [04:25] by answer question I have had for a year. every time I ask it, I get smoke and mirrors. [04:25] I'm software engineer. [04:26] hypothetical situation: [04:26] I have 10,000 customers. [04:26] I have Linux application that uses Linux system calls like epoll, timerfd, etc. [04:26] it's user-space, but it will need to send raw Ethernet frames. [04:26] now I have this application on my web site. [04:27] my user, who is a doctor, goes to my web site to install it. [04:27] my question: [04:27] Will my customer have grief or not? [04:27] This depends on how you distribute it. [04:27] I plan to distribute it from my web site. [04:28] Right, but what exactly are you distributing? [04:28] A single static executable object? [04:28] A tarball containing stuff? [04:28] my experience with Linux is limited, btw, but I could do anything to package it. [04:28] A .deb, built for the Ubuntu release your doctor customer is running? [04:28] it's a binary, and a few data files. [04:29] well, that's just it...they are not running Ubuntu now. [04:29] and if I do not solve this problem, they will not be running Ubuntu. :) [04:29] it's on Windows now, Windows CE. The port to Ubuntu was only done recently. [04:30] so we're looking at Ubuntu Touch, scratching our heads, trying to figure out exactly what Canonical means by "native [04:30] Well, IIRC the ‘can send raw Ethernet frames’ is fixed by installing your binary with CAP_SYS_RAW_NETWORK or something. [04:30] if I write a native app for Windows Mobile, I can do whatever I want to that device, as long as the user authorizes it. [04:30] so far, for every single smartphone that we have tried (all of them), this is not the case on Linux. [04:30] Ubuntu claims on their web site that they support "true native apps" [04:31] but that is meaningless to an engineer without being very specific. [04:31] I'm trying to be specific. :) [04:31] so I can package it however. [04:31] ideally, customer would download my package, in whatever form it is in, click something, and it would install. [04:31] I don't know how we plan to handle the “download random package from the internet” usecase. [04:32] if you will allow me to be frank, there is something I have to get off my chest. [04:32] It's a real use case, but it's also one fraught with problems. [04:32] i knew you were going to say that. :) [04:32] every company that makes smartphone OS's say that. [04:32] Because it's obvious to anyone who spends any time thinking about it :) [04:32] "We do it to protect the customer." [04:33] actually, I think there is a different angle. [04:33] Well, Android can sideload reasonably easily; AFAIK you can do whatever you want there. [04:33] nope. [04:34] Basically, Apple opened a lot of eyes with its app store. [04:34] Microsoft, etc. saw all the $$$ that was being made with the wall-garden model. [04:34] and as we know, if I write an app for iOS, cannot port it..I become bound to Apple. [04:35] and I have to sell through Apple's store. [04:35] Google is doing the same thing with Android. === vying is now known as Guest44575 [04:35] Tizen is trying hard to do the same thing. [04:35] and a few others. [04:35] And then there is Canonical. [04:35] basically, the steps are: [04:35] 1. announce a new "OS" (usually based on Linux). [04:35] 2. claim that it is free, open-source, etc..yada... [04:36] 3. create a semi-prorietary API that, if you want to show anything to the user, you have to use that API [04:36] 4. create an App Store [04:36] 5. create an environment where, if you do not use the App Store, you suffer as a developer [04:36] 6. charge a % of of sales on the App Store [04:36] it's standard technique these days [04:37] Ah, well, I think you'll find that 5. is actually “An App Store is really really useful” [04:37] Yes...it is..but [04:37] So ‘if I don't use the App Store, I miss out on really really useful’ isn't something that can be fixed? [04:37] When developers start scratching their heads saying, "Ok,, I get the app store thing...but I don't get it..why do I have to pay you a fee to sell my app to my customer on my customer's phone..." [04:38] well... [04:38] I think it can be fixed. [04:38] I think that Canonical should allow 3rd-party developers to create apps. [04:38] and be able to sell those apps without going to the app store. [04:38] despite the utility of the app store. [04:39] i also think that Canonical should give the user a choice about installing software. [04:39] i ride motorcycle at 150 mph. [04:39] it could easily kill me. [04:39] but when I bought it, the dealer who sold it to me did not put a rev limiter on it. [04:39] i get one warning [04:39] this machine can kill you [04:39] then I get the keys [04:39] I think smartphones should be that way too [04:39] right now it is not [04:40] the user should have the option of installing whatever software s/he wants [04:40] you should warn him/her, but the decision of whether to install the software should lie with the user [04:40] that is the true meaning of open [04:41] open source is useless if the result is that most users cannot get the experience they want without some really heavy lifting [04:41] what do you think? [04:41] do you think a user should be allowed to decide for himself/herself whether to install software outside the sandbox? [04:42] Yes, but Android allows that (as, presumably, will Touch) [04:42] actually, it does not. [04:42] my app will run on any Linux distro in the world. [04:42] all of them. [04:42] In what way does it not? [04:43] if a user tries to put my app on Android device, no go. [04:43] it's a native C++ app. [04:43] portable in fact. runs fine on Windows. [04:43] but it will not sideload on Android. [04:43] Android pushes Java. [04:43] Why not? [04:43] Android has allowed C++ for a couple of years, at least. [04:43] there is a standard linux function call - epoll [04:44] if I am not mistaken, I cannot use it on Android. [04:44] see..that's the game with words that Google plays with Android [04:44] they say, "Android supports native C++" [04:44] but people in-the-know, know that that is not quite what it seems [04:44] yes, you can compile C++ code. [04:45] like letting someone drive a Ferrarri. [04:45] "I'll let you drive my Ferrarri." [04:45] when you get to the test drive site... [04:45] get into the car [04:45] in the garage. [04:45] yes, you're driving a Ferrarri, but you are confined to a garage. [04:45] right? [04:45] I mean, that's C++ on Android. [04:45] it's C++, in a garage. [04:46] if you try to do anything other than twiddle your C++ thumbs, you cannot. [04:46] it's sandboxed. [04:46] and not only that, you still need Java, because, in fact, it is a Java program. [04:47] that runs your C++ [04:47] and forget about doing anything low-level. [04:47] you can't. [04:47] wanna do some WiFi mesh stuff? [04:47] forget it [04:47] to do that, you need to talk to WiFi drivers. [04:47] Android won't let you. [04:48] they keep your C++ code in a box so tight, you might as well be programming in Java. [04:48] so getting back to Ubuntu... [04:48] I hope you guys do different. [04:48] If you want to be in the store your code will be sandboxed. [04:49] I figured. That's fine. [04:49] So you already know my next question. [04:49] what happens if there is code that is ~not~ in the store. [04:49] you guys going to sandbox that too? [04:50] It's not sandboxed now; you can (if you enable writable-/) apt-get anything you like from the main Ubuntu archives. [04:50] i read something about that this evening. [04:51] so you're saying, right now, if my customer enables writeable, they can install any "normal" desktop application? [04:51] Yup. [04:51] They won't work, obviously, because we don't run an X server. [04:51] oh sure. [04:52] But if they're console-only, sure. [04:52] ok, forgive me..my Linux is much weaker than my Windows.. [04:52] so if I have a normal, native consolve C++ application that invokes epoll(), that interface with madwifi or whatever WiFI driver is in the system, that should work ? [04:53] i'm trying to envision the process. [04:53] I have the native C++ application on my web site. [04:53] a doctor is sitting in her office, at my web site, looking at my application. [04:54] she decides to download and install it. [04:54] what's the process? [04:55] you said that I could apt-get anything from Ubuntu repository [04:55] my app is not in Ubuntu repository [04:56] Well, they could download a .deb file and dpkg --install it. [04:56] But I don't know what process, if any, we intend for out-of-store app installs. [04:56] so my doctor is looking at her phone [04:56] i'm trying to envision what she would do [04:57] console interface, etc. [04:57] i am worried about your out-of-store installs [04:57] Google has everyone fooled by side-loading. [04:57] they say that you can sideload apps, but they are Java apps [04:57] no C++ apps. [04:58] they tell you that you can code in C++, but it's not the same as having access to native API of Linux [04:58] Well, you can. [04:58] really? [04:58] I'm not convinced. [04:58] But the APIs you're requesting are privileged. [04:58] You need SYS_CAP_something_or_other, or root, in order to use them. [04:58] well..yes and no. epoll is not a priv... [04:58] That's quite true. [04:58] Oh. [04:59] i don't want any of my doctors rooting their phones. [04:59] and it is true that some of the api surface is privilege, like raw eithernet. [04:59] Oh. You might be running into bionic limitations. [04:59] *ethernet [04:59] yea [05:00] Presumably bionic doesn't implement the epoll wrapper; you could totally use epoll, but you'd need to call the appropriate ioctl(). [05:00] i've talked to other developers. the feeling is unanimous. Android, for native C++ developers, is a nightmare. [05:01] what I want is same access that I have on Linux desktop. [05:02] honestly, I think Canonical, Tizen...etc. are all treading dangerous ground. [05:02] imagine what will happen when one of Chinese manufacturers breaks rank. [05:03] puts out smartphone that has true no-non-sense Linux on it (with X) [05:03] and throws it out there. [05:03] viruses be damned. [05:03] then you have situation. [05:03] you have Microsoft/PC 1983 situation. [05:03] on smartphones. [05:03] programmers would write code in any language they saw fit, do what they want. [05:04] it only takes a single OEM to break ranks. [05:04] and huge #'s of developers will follow them. [05:04] create a different kind of app store. [05:04] where user can download and install whatever, at their own discretion. [05:04] HelloThere, This is support not your soapbox. [05:05] ok..so..i would like to know... [05:05] if my customer installs my application [05:05] on an Ubuntu Touch phone... [05:05] from my web site... [05:05] if your OS will restrict my application from accessing the normal API that I can expect on Ubuntu Linux [05:05] including the ability to send raw Ethernet frames (since I can do that on Ubuntu desktop) [05:06] that's my question [05:06] without rooting her phone [05:06] and if so, what is the process [05:07] (1) Your app can send raw Ethernet frames on the desktop because the desktop comes pre-rooted. [05:07] right now, I can write a program on the Ubuntu 12.8 (or whatever) that I have running that will send [05:07] (2) As I've said, I don't know what the plan is. [05:07] but right now, today, the answer is "no", right? [05:08] just trying to get the facts [05:10] As of today, the answer is “yes, as long as they're prepared to drop into the terminal app” [05:10] And enable writable-/ [05:11] ahhhh!!! [05:11] I forgot that. [05:11] so that's the answer to my 2nd question. what is the mechanism [05:11] there is a terminal app. very cool. [05:12] how much work is it to enable writeable? [05:20] Hi. Trying to install touch on my N7 using guide from ubuntu.com but stuck at step4. When running ubuntu-device-flash --channel devel --bootstrap it says command not found [05:21] NerdKelly: have you installed the correct packages? [05:22] afaik, according to the instruction listed https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Install [05:22] sudo apt-get install phablet-tools android-tools-adb android-tools-fastboot [05:23] no mention of ubuntu-device-flash [05:23] i added the ppa too [05:24] So I got answer to 1 of my 2 questions. it is possible to side-load true native C++ applications that bind to the Linux kernel, but only if device is enable for write by going to terminal app. the actual steps involved are not specified. And at this point, it is not certain how much access Canonical will allow. [05:24] thx. [05:30] any ideas anyone? [05:30] NerdKelly: try phablet-flash [05:30] It looks like something is missing for being able to install using ubuntu-device-flash [05:31] yeah, phablet-flash is available [05:32] if thats the case the instructions need a bit of a revision [05:33] NerdKelly: it was just updated to be ubuntu-device-flash, so I'm guessing that something was omitted [05:33] I'm emailing the person who made the changes now [05:33] but being that its the weekend, might be Monday until there are changes [05:35] now worries. I've just searched apt repo for ubuntu-device-flash and looks like i've found the package [05:36] what's missing? === vying is now known as Guest95745 [05:37] looks like just ubuntu-device-flash [05:38] doing ubuntu-device-flash --channel devel --bootstrap now... [05:41] not sure if its doing anything mind as no visual feedback or anything as yet... [06:12] hel [06:12] hell === v6sa is now known as lauri === vying is now known as Guest3176 [07:15] cjohnston cool. Seems to be installing now :) [08:52] hi. anybody here with a N10? [08:52] I need some config-files [10:39] A little help with the emulator, please? === karni-away is now known as karni [10:43] http://pastebin.com/YSv5sixk <--- That's what I see in the Qt Creator when I try to create a new instance of the emulator and then run it. After login prompt, emulator's process start sleeping and it's window still doesn't render anything except device's frame [10:52] xplt: it takes a while [10:52] after you get the frame come up, wait ~5-10 mins [10:53] Well, I waited for an hour yesterday and nothing happened :-/ And looks like it's the same thing today [10:56] The only difference I see it's that emulator occasionally "refreshes" it's window during loading by restoring it to black [10:59] wow, nevermind [10:59] Finally! [10:59] popey: and thanks! :) [11:00] Yes! It really works! :D [11:04] ☻ [11:04] the x86 one is way faster [11:04] but not integrated yet [11:28] anybody here with a N10? I need some config files [12:01] ogra_, re: silos, AFAIK that's why locks are being put on trunks, that only one silo can with a package can be active at the same time, looks like it's not the case with direct uploads? [12:02] Saviq, right, we need some kind of dependency system for silos too imho [12:03] given that 60% of our packages in the image dont really come from trunk branches [12:03] indeed [12:04] Saviq, do you know if rsalveti tested the lightdm flo issue against a normal archive ? [12:04] when i tested it here it didnt cause any issues [12:04] ogra_, no, I only read about it this morning when it was already fixed, apparently [12:04] i wonder whats different in the demo image that it seems to need more time to provide the env for lightdm [12:05] * ogra_ wnts his 2 seconds boot time back ! [12:05] :) [12:06] :D [12:33] ogra_: 2 second boot time would be rather nice :) [12:33] btw, regarding the alarm clock. I've done some more testing and it only seems to work once [12:34] Hi all [12:34] hi === Will is now known as Guest81050 [12:34] Phone needs to rebooted after one succesful alarm === philippe is now known as Guest878 [12:35] + the timezone issue. [12:40] Hi all, I hv just installed the ubuntu-sdk but i can't see the ubuntu tmpl in the new project wizard, any ideas? [12:41] is ntp enabled on the ubuntu touch, clock seems to run late compared to all other machines/phones I have which are synchronized [12:42] timppa: Are you running #200? [12:42] yes [12:43] timppa: I am still on #194, I will test #200 when it gets promoted with the alarms...seems weird that it doesn't ring twice [12:43] timppa: the timezone has been confirmed by other people as well [12:44] hello [12:45] nik90: it seems that once the alarm has been working and you create a new alarm it does not recognize it. No indicator icon, no alarm [12:45] If I boot the phone it works again but only once. Weird... [12:47] Um, and no, I tried four times in a row and the fourth time the indicator did come [12:50] It also seems that when the phone is locked the time on lockscreen and in the indicator bar does not update at all [12:50] that's why I thought the clock is running late [12:51] alguien habla español? [12:52] timppa: the clock time in the indicator itself is not part of the clock-app.. [12:52] ok [12:52] timppa: however all I can do for now is wait until the image promotion [12:53] nik90: That's just fine, I just wish I could help in any way to get things running smooth [12:53] timppa: keep reporting bugs :) and I will take care of the rest [12:54] nik90: sure [13:20] Hi ! are there french ? [13:37] timppa, 2 second less ... not 2 sec boot time :P [13:50] hi all. I repeat my question. anybody here who has UT on the N10? === everbrew_ is now known as everbrew === jasoncwarner___ is now known as jasoncwarner__ === yofel is now known as Guest6792 [18:19] were can i find ubuntu version for my droid? [18:19] or some rom that works [18:19] the thing isnt booting anymore [18:21] is there a build your self rom page? [18:21] like slackware [18:21] like suse has [18:22] you just selected your hardware and add the apps and stuff and the page would build it for you ti download and install [18:23] instead of making one rom for every one and each device [18:23] linux works on most everywhere with out any major problems [18:24] IS ANYONE IN HERE? [18:25] https://susestudio.com this for android [18:30] no, there is no such thing for ubuntu [18:31] (and it wouldnt help anyway, since thats not how android works, you need to port it first) [18:31] !devices | Dalvikin [18:32] hmm, no bot ... [18:32] google should make that stuff [18:32] Dalvikin, see : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Devices if there is an image for your device, if not, : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Porting has porting instructions [18:32] but theyr no good corsairs [18:32] why would google care [18:33] because its theyr resposability [18:33] the only offer the source, manufacturers take it, modify it and release their devices with the modified binaries [18:33] if they dont care someone should make them care [18:34] they based it on GPL [18:34] you need to make the manufacturers care ... nnot google [18:34] you have to give back the changes you made [18:34] you dont [18:34] you have to publish them [18:34] its open source [18:35] damn google [18:35] as i said, not googles fault [18:35] theyr a spyware companie [18:35] i'm soure they would happily integrate code that they get from manufacturers [18:35] would they? [18:36] but manufacturers have no interest in sending it to them [18:36] they take open source and get away with it [18:36] damn theifs [18:36] so you have an android where the common bits are the same .... but device specific bits are in the hands of the handset manufacturer [18:36] thiefs ? [18:37] you dont seem to understand what opensource sw is [18:37] they stoled linux from the comunity [18:37] * ogra_ shakes his head [18:37] thats really low [18:37] at least apple gives back [18:37] nobody stole linux ... it is provided to you for exactly that [18:38] the only obligation the GPL puts on you is that you need to make your changes public [18:38] it made for you to missed use and abuse [18:38] and make tons of money at other expenses [18:38] sure [18:39] linus wasnt forced to pick the GPL ... [18:39] that license allows all this [18:39] and not giving back as its discribed on GPL [18:39] there is no word in the GPL that forces you to "give back" [18:39] it only forces you to make your changes publically available [18:39] there is you need to back port all the changes [18:39] which manufacturers usually do [18:40] so why is it so dificult to find rom [18:40] its as closed as you get [18:40] thats talk is just BS [18:41] you usually get the kernel source from manufacturers ... [18:41] other wise there would be a page like suse studio [18:41] no [18:41] YES [18:41] susestudio relies on the fact that there is some standard [18:42] the standard is android [18:42] there is no standard that a manufacturer needs to use a certain version of the kernel for example [18:42] * genii makes more coffee and slides a large mug down to ogra_ [18:42] haha [18:42] thanks :) [18:42] you can use other version of kernel too or even build your own [18:43] ogra_: Any time, of course! [18:43] Dalvikin, so why are there devices with the same android version but with a 3.0 kernel ... and others with 3.2 and even different ones with 3.5 [18:43]