[00:37] <valorie> documentation day?
[00:37]  * valorie knows nothing of this
[00:56]  * ahoneybun looks for link
[00:57] <ahoneybun> valorie: http://ubuntuclassroom.wordpress.com/2014/02/14/march-2nd-is-ubuntu-documentation-day-in-the-classroom/
[00:58] <valorie> sounds like a good way to learn more about the doc system of ubuntu
[00:58] <valorie> lyz is always awesome
[00:59] <valorie> on your question above, yes all the languages should be tested
[01:00] <valorie> however, i can't offer to help with that
[01:00] <ahoneybun> I see
[01:02] <ahoneybun> valorie: though we are slowing getting away from ubuntu's doc system wiki wise
[01:02] <ahoneybun> but I do love the ubuntu help application
[01:03]  * ahoneybun fails to understand how windows cut my 320Gb ext hdd to 32gb
[01:05] <ahoneybun> going to use my moms ubuntu notebook
[01:13] <valorie> yes
[01:13] <valorie> ok, dinner....
[02:01] <kubotu> ::workspace-bugs:: [1283692] My graphic card seems incompatible with Kubuntu 13.10 @ https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1283692 (by genetin)
[07:22]  * apachelogger sighs at bug 1283596
[07:23] <apachelogger> actually
[07:23] <apachelogger> one really has to wonder what is worse
[07:23] <apachelogger> the fact that kdepim nowadays basically wants all of mysql client and tools or that one has to do what that bug describes to "export pim data"
[07:24] <apachelogger> http://i.imgur.com/C4jVtFw.png
[07:24] <apachelogger> ...
[07:25] <apachelogger> fwiw, it does not do so in its own, it is me who has to know what exact applications this talks about, and apparently it doesn't actually care whether I actually close the applications
[07:26] <apachelogger> http://i.imgur.com/9eValGo.png
[07:27] <apachelogger> so, this is epic http://i.imgur.com/6uuCmAe.png
[07:27] <apachelogger> aborted it said
[07:27] <apachelogger> what it meant was continued
[07:27]  * apachelogger silently cries in the channel corner
[07:43] <valorie> {{{{{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}} to apachelogger
[07:44] <jussi> silly apachelogger, should know channels dont have corners :P
[09:21] <lordievader> Good morning.
[09:23] <Riddell> morning lordievader, up for doing some beta testing this week?
[09:24] <lordievader> Riddell: Yes, think so.
[09:25] <lordievader> Have the beta's landed already?
[09:28] <Riddell> 05:39 -queuebot:#kubuntu-devel- Builds: Kubuntu Desktop amd64 [Trusty Beta 1] (20140225) has been added
[09:28] <Riddell> 05:39 -queuebot:#kubuntu-devel- Builds: Kubuntu Desktop i386 [Trusty Beta 1] (20140225) has been added
[09:28] <Riddell> lordievader: crack of dawn ↑ :)
[09:31] <lordievader> Whoo, lovely.
[09:40]  * apachelogger zsyncs
[09:41] <apachelogger> now where is my opensuse stick xD
[09:44] <soee> beta ? :O
[09:46] <soee> any idea when this packages get fixed: kde-runtime plasma-scriptengine-javascript ?
[09:48]  * lordievader goes to zsync too
[09:48] <apachelogger> soee: ?
[09:49] <soee> apachelogger: they are stopped when doing upgrade
[09:49] <soee> its like that 2 or more weekd now
[09:49] <apachelogger> can't reproduce
[09:50] <soee> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6993568/
[09:51] <apachelogger> soee: apt-get install plasma-scriptengine-javascript
[09:52] <soee> 2 min, removing old kernels
[09:53] <soee> apachelogger: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6993579/
[09:53] <apachelogger> apt-cache policy plasma-scriptengine-javascript
[09:55] <soee> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6993585/
[09:57] <apachelogger> don't use the experimental ppa
[09:57] <apachelogger> yofel: ^ experimental apparenlty broken
[09:57] <yofel> that's not experimental, but yeah, don't use the trusty pocket of the PPA
[09:57]  * yofel needs to wipe those packages
[09:58] <soee> well im not using experimental :)
[09:58] <yofel> soee: I'll get rid of those packages soon, that should fix your issue at least
[09:58] <soee> yofel: ok, thank you
[11:11] <apachelogger> Riddell, shadeslayer: do you guys see artifacts on oxygengtk scrollbars?
[11:13] <Riddell> apachelogger: not using firefox
[11:13] <apachelogger> http://wstaw.org/m/2014/02/25/plasma-desktopCO1864.png
[11:13] <yofel> none so far, I'll keep an eye out for it
[11:13] <Riddell> no current problems
[11:14] <apachelogger> might be intel related
[11:15] <yofel> I'm on intel right now
[11:15] <apachelogger> curious then
[11:16] <apachelogger> fwiw, I also don't see that on my workstation which is like a 2 year old installation
[11:16] <apachelogger> and using nvidia...
[11:16] <shadeslayer> nope, nothing here
[11:23] <apachelogger> krita has 3 menu entries
[11:23] <apachelogger> wtf
[11:23] <apachelogger> kirta has 3 menu entires of which 2 are broken
[11:23] <apachelogger> hooray
[11:25] <apachelogger> file:///usr/share/kde4/apps/kritasketch/kritasketch.qml:20:1: module "org.krita.sketch" is not installed 
[11:25] <apachelogger>      import org.krita.sketch 1.0 
[11:25] <apachelogger> meow
[11:25] <apachelogger> Riddell: I think that krita packaging is le flawed
[11:29] <Riddell> apachelogger: hmm you could well be right
[11:29]  * Riddell puts calligra update on the day's todo list
[11:41] <Riddell> ooh new patch for touchpad https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=331285
[11:43] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: oh, so that's why krita didn't start for me ...
[11:46] <Riddell> shadeslayer: krita should start
[11:46] <Riddell> just kritasketch and kritagemini that might be missing something
[11:47] <shadeslayer> Riddell: I believe all the application entries say krita
[11:47] <shadeslayer> or some generic name
[11:47] <apachelogger> kritasketch and kritagemini likely should not be in the krita package
[11:47] <Riddell> shadeslayer: where?
[11:47] <apachelogger> they are different gui incarnations
[11:48] <apachelogger> just like muon, muon-installer and muon-discover are not in the same package
[11:48] <Riddell> yes, I'll fix it
[11:49] <shadeslayer> Riddell: they all say "Digital Painting" :)
[11:55] <Riddell> shadeslayer: oh right, what would you suggest?
[11:55] <shadeslayer> don't have a suggestion, it was merely an observation since I have no clue what kritagemini and kritasketch do
[11:55] <Riddell> sketch is a tablet UI
[11:56] <Riddell> gemini switches between the two http://krita.org/item/193-presenting-krita-gemini
[11:58] <shadeslayer> I see
[12:00] <apachelogger> ask up the stream?
[12:04] <apachelogger> herding cats, flipping cats
[12:05] <apachelogger> jussi, yofel, shadeslayer, valorie, ScottK: note the wiki thread on the mailing list and for those of who you have not replied to the policies thread, please also note that one
[12:05] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: also, LTS support time frame reminder
[12:05] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: will reply post lunch
[12:05] <ScottK> apachelogger: re wiki, I don't care either way.
[12:06] <apachelogger> ScottK: please say that in the thread :P
[12:07] <BluesKaj> Hiyas all
[12:15] <apachelogger> https://notes.kde.org/p/kubuntu-qa
[12:15] <apachelogger> this is going to be much pain
[12:23]  * yofel finally reading the policy
[12:25] <yofel> "Software that is unmaitained but kept in the archive must not be patched!" -> I'm not convinced that's a realistic solution to the problem really. While synaptiks was all we had I did have to patch it to keep it working - and I have absolutely no intention of taking up upstream maintenance
[12:25] <Riddell> yofel: good point
[12:41] <apachelogger> yofel: synaptiks should not have been kept in the archive
[12:42] <apachelogger> no solution is better than an insanely shitty one
[12:42] <apachelogger> that drags quality perception down as a whole
[12:42] <yofel> not being able to change your touchpad settings without konsole isn't very user friendly either
[12:42] <apachelogger> also the random reviewer who notices the shittyness will not mention the excitingly smooth localization support, they will mention the crashy touchpad stuff
[12:43] <yofel> and drags down the usability perception if you look at it from that POV
[12:43] <apachelogger> yofel: yes, so someone needs to set up and maintain it
[12:43] <apachelogger> let me give you another example
[12:43] <apachelogger> k3b
[12:43] <apachelogger> it's unmaintained
[12:43] <apachelogger> and no one "feels" like picking upt
[12:43] <apachelogger> but everyone feels like patching it
[12:44] <apachelogger> so now you are in a state where k3b gets distro patches, some of those luckily upstream in git, but no release
[12:44] <apachelogger> so since we are not cherrypicking those upstream and/or distro fixes we are getting no fixes
[12:45] <apachelogger> so really, if no one is willing to pickup maintenance, then clearly the application is not as important as we make it out to be and it should be removed
[12:45] <apachelogger> and if it is important enough then surely someone will step up and maintain it
[12:45] <apachelogger> it's a matter of responsibility
[12:46] <apachelogger> you cannot feel responsible to patch it into not-crashing-on-startup but not feel responsible enough to fix all the other brokeness that comes with bitrot
[12:49] <sgclark> Riddell: kdewebkit i386 symbol patch committed
[12:51] <yofel> apachelogger: I think it's a matter of dedication and manpower too... may I understand that 'taking up upstream maintenance' can be done by e.g. ~kubuntu-dev too? (problem: to be approved by whom?)
[12:51] <yofel> My problem really is that finding single person maintainers is hard and leads to a bus-factor=1 situation again
[12:52] <apachelogger> yofel: you need one person who is responsible
[12:52] <apachelogger> because technically maintenance is by ~kubuntu-dev is the status quo
[12:53] <apachelogger> and join responsibility clearly does not work as it should
[12:53] <apachelogger> *joint
[12:56] <yofel> apachelogger: ok, true.
[12:56] <yofel> So lets stay with k3b. In the event that k3b would grow a bug where it would start e.g. writing imaging data to wrong location potentially causing data loss - you would remove it from the archive because there's no maintainer?
[12:57] <apachelogger> yofel: no
[12:57] <apachelogger> "Official KDE software is generally every piece of software that has an official VCS on KDE's infrastructure and/or uses KDE's bug tracker. "
[12:57] <apachelogger> "Before taking any actions regarding apparently unmaintained official KDE software, KDE should be contacted for more information and opinion gathering (mail to kde-devel or kde-core-devel)."
[12:57]  * Riddell high fives sgclark 
[12:57] <yofel> okaaay... take synaptiks then
[12:57] <apachelogger> yofel: yes
[12:58] <Riddell> sgclark: uploaded!
[12:58] <yofel> because the possible risks of other issues outweigh the usability regression?
[12:59] <apachelogger> yofel: because it's not important enough if no maintainer can be found
[13:00] <yofel> do we have a definition of 'important'?
[13:00] <apachelogger> if no one feels responsible for it, then we must assume it is untested, we must assume it is untranslated, we must assume it has the worst possible code quality
[13:00] <apachelogger> because effectively no one can attest to any of those
[13:00] <apachelogger> because it is not maintained
[13:01] <yofel> true
[13:02] <apachelogger> that's the thing... maintenance is not a big effort, it's feeling responsible that the thing has sane quality throughout and making sure that this is actually the case
[13:02] <apachelogger> on a high quality code base that is used by a lot of people maintenance in essence will amount of accepting patches and rolling a release every once in a while
[13:03] <apachelogger> because the community at large will produce the patches for you, and the community at large will make sure that the stuff is tested etc.
[13:03] <apachelogger> so the responsibility of a maintainer is to orchestrate the community effort into a release that is of adequate quality
[13:04] <apachelogger> my english is rubbish today :/
[13:04] <apachelogger> ENOTENOUGHSLEEP
[13:04] <yofel> well, I get what you mean ^^
[13:05] <yofel> apachelogger: again though, do we have a definition of 'important'?
[13:06] <apachelogger> the definition is: if no one wants to maintain it, it is not important enough :P
[13:07] <yofel> That sounds as subjective as the reason for synaptiks becoming unmaintained was :/
[13:08] <Riddell> synaptiks obviously was important enough because a replacement has been written
[13:10] <yofel> apachelogger: ok, I guess I can't really think of a good reason to argue against that. Point taken
[13:15] <sgclark> Riddell: knotifyconfig ready
[13:15] <apachelogger> Riddell: so the question is.. had this replacement not happened sooner if we didn't drag along unmaintained rubbishware?
[13:15] <apachelogger> and in fact, from a KDE at large perspective it's not even a replacement it's a solution (AFAIK we were the only distro actually using synaptiks)
[13:21]  * apachelogger broke his ktp -.-
[13:21] <yofel> apachelogger: patch policy: Do I read it right that one is not supposed to add a patch before upstream has at least taken a look at it? What if upstream is slow to respond? Why not test the patch until upstream responded? (ofc. requiring dep3 Forwarded to point the the filed review)
[13:25] <apachelogger> yofel: two reaesons 1) we then forget to remove the patch before a release, making the patch end up in a release, potentially screwing up everything (I mean, look at the qt a11y patch, that came from upstream and still screwed over all of plasma) 2) we are not upstream and any feeling we may have about the correctness or quality of a patch is really a guesstimate, testing does not always help because in certain software changing a relatively 
[13:25] <apachelogger> minor thing could potentially break in the weirdest circumstances (for example in some phonon functions call order is imperative because underneath they do x11 magic)
[13:26] <apachelogger> FWIW, if upstream is too slow to respond one may want to conduct a dead-upstream test xD
[13:27] <yofel> hm, what about patches to broken components that are rather critical requirements of something else? (i.e. my FindFreedesktop.cmake patch in cmake which is not getting reviewed because upstream says that file is unmaintained but we need it for kde-workspace)
[13:28] <sgclark> Riddell: kdesignerplugin ready
[13:28] <apachelogger> yofel: upstream must be made to review it? the thing is, the patch must not necessarily go upstream, but upstream needs to be aware and approve the patch of the content as sane
[13:28] <yofel> erm, s/FindFreedesktop/FindFreetype/
[13:28] <yofel> not enough coffee
[13:28] <apachelogger> yofel: to that extent, if cmake upstream says it is unmaintained then workspace upstream should be poked about using unmaintained finders
[13:29] <yofel> good point
[13:36] <yofel> hm.... something in our power management stack is broken. I cannot hibernate, upower even tells me I cannot hibernate, plasma still offers me to hibernate
[13:37] <yofel> does someone by chance know an udisks2 replacement for udisks --dump?
[13:41] <Riddell> apachelogger: I don't see why it would have happened sooner
[13:45] <yofel> hm....
[13:46] <yofel> about our desktop/netbook selection. How does having a cdrom drive or not make a difference here?
[13:46] <yofel> if `laptop-detect` && [ $HEIGHT -lt 700 ] && [ $HEIGHT -gt 0 ] && [ -z "$CDROM" ] || [ "$1" = "netbook" ]; then
[13:46] <yofel> wasn't the UI mostly about the limited screen size?
[13:52] <sgclark> Riddell: kprintutils ready
[14:17] <Riddell> sgclark: uploaded all
[14:21] <sgclark> Riddell: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6994618/
[14:23] <shadeslayer> yofel: fyi you can use udisksctl dump for udisks2
[14:23] <yofel> shadeslayer: nvm, see my ML post
[14:23] <shadeslayer> aha ok
[14:23] <yofel> but thanks, good to know
[14:28] <Riddell> sgclark: ignore it I'd say
[14:28] <Riddell> it does no harm
[14:29] <sgclark> ok
[14:48] <sgclark> Riddell: kross ready
[14:51] <BluesKaj> my cdrom disappeared in lspci and the BIOS after the last upgrade, i saw this last week on a users machine running 13.10, any ideas?
[14:54] <Riddell> sgclark: uploaded!
[14:55] <Riddell> shadeslayer: so, did sleeping on LTS status help you decide?
[14:56] <shadeslayer> Nope, but the icecream did
[14:59] <ghostcube> anybody can confirm sharing from android phone to kdeconnect is broken in 0.5?
[15:00] <shadeslayer> ghostcube: how do you mean
[15:00] <ghostcube> you can send files from your phone to ypur pc through kdeconnect
[15:00] <ghostcube> this worked fine in 0.4.x
[15:00] <ghostcube> stoped working in 0.5
[15:03] <shadeslayer> ghostcube: uhm, you could never do that with kdeconnect afaik
[15:03] <ghostcube> sure you coukld
[15:03] <shadeslayer> I don't see a file transfer plugin
[15:03] <ghostcube> just hold on a file with your finger till send to pops up
[15:03] <ghostcube> choose kdeconnect
[15:04] <shadeslayer> ahhh
[15:04] <shadeslayer> ghostcube: works for me
[15:04] <ghostcube> -.-
[15:04] <ghostcube> ok what android version?
[15:05] <shadeslayer> 4.3.1
[15:05] <ghostcube> and the file is now inside your kde home folder?
[15:05] <shadeslayer> it's in ~/Downloads
[15:05] <ghostcube> yep
[15:05] <ghostcube> hmm ok doesnt work here, and i dont know what could cause this
[15:09] <ghostcube> there isnt a libkdeconnect 0.5 right?
[15:10] <shadeslayer> nope
[15:10] <ghostcube> hmm ok anything screwed my install then 
[15:17] <ghostcube> ok got it
[15:17] <ghostcube> rempoving all of the kdeconnect packages purging and then reinstalling fixt it
[15:17] <ghostcube> -.-
[15:18] <ghostcube> thx shadeslayer for testing
[15:21] <sgclark> Riddell: kunitconversion ready, finishing up t3
[15:33] <sgclark> Riddell: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6994938/
[15:35] <Riddell> sgclark: you don't want to install python bytecode
[15:35] <Riddell> sgclark: there's slightly fiddly things that are done for installing python modules I think this is just a local program rather than a module
[15:37] <Riddell> see man dh_python3 if you want to investigate but for an easy life just leave it
[15:37] <Riddell> 15:36 < ervin> flash news: dfaure just informed me that after all the release will be on saturday as planned
[15:37] <Riddell> next kf5 alpha ↑
[15:42] <sgclark> Riddell: I will be here Saturday, as for kapidox leave the lintian errors?
[15:49] <Riddell> sgclark: no don't install the .pyc files
[15:50] <Riddell> sgclark: point me to your public ssh key and I'll give you access to the new tars
[15:51] <sgclark> Riddell: https://launchpad.net/~scarlett-7/+sshkeys scarlett-laptop
[16:11] <sgclark> Riddell: I now remember why I went the python install route.. http://paste.ubuntu.com/6995103/
[16:41] <Riddell> sgclark: mm, lovely, add it to the todo on https://notes.kde.org/p/kubuntu-ninjas-frameworks
[16:45] <sgclark> Riddell: done, moving on for now, will continue research later
[16:53] <Riddell> sgclark: you should be able to log into ftpubuntu@depot.kde.org and get them from unstable/frameworks/
[16:54] <Riddell> sgclark: do you know how to do them in batch?
[16:56] <sgclark> Riddell: I do not, but willing to learn
[16:56] <Riddell> sgclark: trouble is there's no great way, we have kubuntu-automation scripts but they need adapting for frameworks
[16:56] <shadeslayer> wait
[16:56]  * Riddell waits
[16:57] <shadeslayer> Riddell: http://paste.kde.org/prthavfab
[16:57] <shadeslayer> my somewhat hackish script
[16:58] <Riddell> just simplistic, but probably does the job
[16:58] <shadeslayer> first argument is unstable, second one is the version
[16:59] <shadeslayer> Riddell: it does :)
[16:59] <Riddell> while read package   not a bit of bash I've come accross
[16:59] <Riddell> package is the filename?
[16:59] <Riddell> what is read?
[16:59] <shadeslayer> good catch xD
[17:00] <shadeslayer> package is the file list
[17:00] <shadeslayer> Riddell: http://paste.kde.org/pos20sjze
[17:00] <shadeslayer> a bit of python fu to generate the package file
[17:00] <sgclark> SO can I use this? or will I run across permission problems?
[17:01] <soee> can i downgrade package ?
[17:02] <shadeslayer> !downgrade > soee
[17:02] <soee> atm we have nvidia-prime 0.5.7
[17:02] <soee> and i would like to downgrade to 0.5.5
[17:02] <soee> shadeslayer: this one shouldn't break anything
[17:03] <soee> as 0.5.7 does not work 
[17:03] <soee> and 0.5.5 worked fine
[17:03] <shadeslayer> you've been warned
[17:03] <yofel> hm, the automation stuff shouldn't need much adjustments for kf5, I'll look at it
[17:03] <Riddell> shadeslayer: what's your second paste?
[17:03] <Riddell> yofel++
[17:04] <shadeslayer> Riddell: script to generate the package file
[17:04] <shadeslayer> so just run that script and redirect output to a file called package
[17:04] <Riddell> sgclark: why would you get permissions problems?
[17:04] <shadeslayer> Riddell: actually, s/package/kf5-packages-trusty.txt/
[17:05] <sgclark> Riddell: now that I look closer I shouldn't 
[17:05] <shadeslayer> Riddell: 'package' stores the line that was read from kf5-packages-trusty.txt
[17:06] <Riddell> shadeslayer: but what's the "read" word?
[17:07] <shadeslayer> Riddell: http://ss64.com/bash/read.html
[17:08] <Riddell> shadeslayer: thanks
[17:40] <BluesKaj> how can an update/upgrade remove a device from the e0fi/bios
[17:41] <BluesKaj> how can an update/upgrade remove a device from the efi/bios ?
[17:41] <BluesKaj> oops sorry for the double post
[17:41] <BluesKaj> my cdrom is no longer listed in the bios 
[17:52] <sgclark> Riddell: frameworkintegration ready
[18:04] <Riddell> BluesKaj: support in #kubuntu or #ubuntu
[18:04] <Riddell> sgclark: awesome!
[18:13] <BluesKaj> Riddell, this is after an upgrade on 14.04, this morning
[18:15] <BluesKaj> anyway I posted in ubuntu+1 too
[18:26] <sgclark> Riddell: kunitconversion still needs review
[19:36] <Riddell> shadeslayer: this might be interesting for you http://bits.debian.org/2014/02/minidebconf-barcelona-announce.html
[19:41] <Riddell> shadeslayer: frameworkthing and kunitconversion uploaded!
[19:42] <Riddell> although sgclark might be more interested in that ↑
[19:47] <sgclark> Riddell: ty
[19:50] <Riddell> sgclark: although you might be less thrilled to learn I just got permission to change back all the soversions to 5
[19:50] <Riddell> but good we have the power of scripting :)
[19:50] <sgclark> Riddell: np, would have to be done anyway
[19:50] <Riddell> handy we have these tools to do repetative tasks, I wonder what people did before them
[19:59] <shadeslayer> Riddell: yeah it is :)
[19:59] <shadeslayer> Riddell: I already knew about it from Munich
[21:10] <sgclark> Riddell: kde4support ready
[21:31] <Riddell> sgclark: uploaded!
[21:31] <sgclark> Riddell: getting close with kapidox :)
[21:56] <Riddell> sgclark: incase you thought you were nearly done there's some new ones in there, I just pushed to kactivities-kf5 but it's very incomplete needs lots of tidying
[21:56] <Riddell> plasma-framework I think I saw too is new
[21:56] <Riddell> might be others
[21:57] <sgclark> Riddell: ok, good news Is I figured out kapidox
[21:57] <Riddell> ooh?
[21:57] <sgclark> Riddell: running through pbuilder, will be ready for you shortly
[22:06] <sgclark> Riddell: kapidox ready
[22:26] <Riddell> thanks sgclark!
[22:47] <maco> Riddell: when's the 14.04 release date? that's going to be a LTS, right?
[22:48] <maco> developer.ubuntu.com: not helpful
[22:50] <maco> the wiki doesnt have anything more specific than "april" but over the last few years dates have varied from mid-month to end of the month
[22:53] <PaulW2U> maco: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr
[22:54] <maco> PaulW2U: ah ha! thank you!
[23:15] <valorie> apachelogger: will do so asap
[23:15] <valorie> I've been reading, just not writing