[00:04] GridCube: i'm about to switch off now, i presume it'll take a while longer till it's tested [00:04] just ping me with the result and i'll read it tomorrow [00:04] also, if it doesn't work, this would be the alternative fix: http://dpaste.com/1667584/ [00:05] ochosi, so i just need to get the ppa and update? [00:05] GridCube: yup, update shimmer-themes, maybe restart after that to be sure, then check the greeter [00:05] (if the problem presents in this test machine now ofcourse) [00:05] yup [00:05] well i'd suppose it should, if it did on the other machine [00:06] i don't think it's *that* random [00:06] (at least i hope) [00:06] ok, ill test it once i get the iso [00:07] thanks! [00:09] night everyone [00:10] nighty ochosi [01:11] what is an "avahi service discovery"? [01:22] ochosi, the error presented in the test box, then after adding the ppa and upgrading it fixed === yofel_ is now known as yofel [01:28] gah :( [01:28] there is no way to use mugshot [01:29] shouldnt usc be in the favourites of the menu? [01:39] what does this means? http://goput.it/dtop.png [01:41] Do you ever use mycomputer.local? If not, it means nothing. [01:41] no, its the very first time i see this [01:41] but it pop up ever time i log in in the vm [04:46] if somebody sees Noskcaj: https://launchpad.net/catfish-search/1.0/1.0.1 [05:46] Noskcaj: not sure if you saw: 20:46:38 < bluesabre> if somebody sees Noskcaj: https://launchpad.net/catfish-search/1.0/1.0.1 [05:46] bluesabre sent me an email about it, thanks though [05:47] ok good :) [07:20] ochosi: what do you want me to do with greybird? git or ppa [07:36] ochosi: lightdm greeter settings appears to work :) [07:57] ochosi: ok - so I assumed you wanted me to grab greybird from git and use that - so did [07:57] I see the same thing with the password error - very faint message [08:00] hey elfy [08:00] elfy: did you replace the greybird folder in /usr/share/themes/ ? [08:00] brainwash: no - I moved the new one in there, renamed, and then used it [08:02] strange [08:02] git version should look fine [08:03] you can see it says something - it's just very faint [08:04] can you check /etc/lightdm/lightdm-gtk-greeter.conf please? [08:04] for what [08:04] and see if the new greybird theme folder is being used? [08:04] well the easiest thing would've been to add the shimmer daily PPA [08:04] upgrade shimmer-themes, restart, check the greeter [08:05] couldn't find the ppa :) [08:05] lmgtfy [08:05] https://launchpad.net/~shimmerproject/+archive/daily/ [08:05] brainwash: it'll just say greybird - because the old greybird is called something else :p [08:06] so you've renamed the old folder, ok :) [08:10] ochosi: ok - not sure what was going on there - the ppa one is completely readable here :) [08:10] elfy: that just means you messed up something with using the git version, that's all [08:10] entirely probable that time of the morning :) [08:10] anyway, makes me happy cause it means there is nothing i have to do other than wait for the next upload of shimmer-themes [08:11] yep [08:32] Noskcaj: while xubuntu-artwork still hasn't been updated/uploaded by anyone, i guess it's fine if i refresh the icons from github one more time, right? [08:32] yep. I'll re-make the tarball tomorrow [08:32] ok,thanks [08:33] i'll push it now [08:33] changelog doesn't need a bump cause it already says "update icons" :) [08:36] Noskcaj: ok, done (rev259) [09:32] bluesabre: bug 1286046 [09:32] Error: Launchpad bug 1286046 could not be found [09:32] wut [09:32] bug 1286046 [09:32] bug 1286046 [09:33] bug 1286046 [09:33] bug 1286046 in parole (Ubuntu) "parole crashed with SIGSEGV in g_object_unref()" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1286046 [09:33] grrr - well it's really there [09:33] it doesn't reply to the same query twice [09:33] so you need to ask something else in between [09:33] must have been catching up - it got marked as private to start with [09:33] something like that [09:33] knome: ok thanks :) [09:34] oh, banks [09:34] yeah, we have (very) long standing packaging issue with the plugins [09:34] why can't you show me your price list. [09:34] so i'm pretty sure that's the issue there, elfy [09:34] :/ [09:34] ochosi: aah, ok wasn't aware of that [09:34] it's quite annoying, cause the mpris2 plugin is actually very nice (and new) [09:35] yea - I saw that on sean's blog just now [09:37] we need to find someone who can help us with that in fact [09:38] the packaging is the same as in debian, we're quite puzzled by this... [09:39] that'll not be elfy then ... [09:43] awwwh [09:44] ochosi: I know what I can do :p [10:02] knome: you might be able to answer this - in the docs - is whisker-menu just going to be called menu? [10:02] I'll do the same for testcases [10:03] it's ok to call it just menu at least in the testcases [10:04] that'll do - though I might change things to 'open blah' or 'start blah' [10:04] :) [10:06] then we can do whatever in future ... [10:08] knome: Thoughts about that for docs? "Applications Menu" is the actual plugin name for the "older style" menu. [10:09] Unit193, i know, which is why i'd lean towards "menu" [10:28] Noskcaj will you please raise the status of Bug 1286046 to 'Triaged' [10:28] bug 1286046 in parole (Ubuntu) "parole crashed with SIGSEGV in g_object_unref()" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1286046 [10:28] slickymasterWork: there is backlog about this bug :) [10:28] done. [10:29] :) good morning knome [10:29] yeah, I know elfy. It's like ochosi stated, is a long-standing issue in Paorle [10:29] s/Paorle/Parole [10:30] if I'd known I'd not have bothered wasting my time reporting it tbh [10:32] elfy: But as stated, crashing part is new. [10:33] good day slickymasterWork [10:34] Unit193: meh [10:34] I hate reporting bugs that are just going to sit there forever and a day gathering dust [10:35] s/ that/./ [10:35] not even sure how I managed to find it - I rarely use parole anyway :) [10:36] Good tester. ;) [10:55] ochosi: are we planning to not have the action plugin on the panel at all now? [10:59] hey knome [11:00] can you link that parole bug to the upstream xfce bug? https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9904 [11:00] bugzilla.xfce.org bug 9904 in General "Notification icon plugin not working" [Normal,Needinfo] [11:00] there is some launchpad wizardry that allows some folks to do it [11:00] I'll do it [11:00] bluesabre: it's already been done :) [11:00] anyone can link bug reports [11:01] oh [11:01] I'm just not paying attention [11:01] actually just pasting the URL in a comment is enough now [11:01] oh, that's handy [11:02] I've never made it work correctly when trying to link other bugs [11:02] the proper way is click "also affects distribution" [11:02] ah [11:02] that's a misleading name [11:02] yes [11:10] bluesabre, boo! :) [11:10] hey knome! [11:11] knome: https://code.launchpad.net/~elfy/ubuntu-manual-tests/menuchange/+merge/208763 [11:11] hallo [11:11] oh gosh ;) [11:11] if you get chance - if not I'll ping someone else [11:11] i'll finish off this work thing, can look after that [11:11] ok - cheers :) [12:03] so, others that are familiar with python, suggestions? https://bugs.launchpad.net/catfish-search/+bug/1280607 [12:03] Launchpad bug 1280607 in Catfish "Case insensitive search for non english file names doesn't work" [Undecided,Confirmed] [12:04] is that a general python problem? [12:04] or some utf8 crap? [12:04] not sure [12:04] I haven't had a chance to debug it yet myself, but it seems... odd [12:04] indeed === xubuntu is now known as Guest66759 [13:47] knome, I was hoping at the meeting yesterday we could take a vote on whether to add Settings Manager to Favorites in whisker-menu [13:47] how do you feel about it? [13:48] jjfrv8, in addition to it being in the bottom-right? [13:48] i also would like that the USC be in the favs [13:48] yeah, cause it seems kinda awkward to point them to an icon in the docs [13:49] GridCube, USC is going to be there [13:49] right :) [13:50] jjfrv8, i don't have a strong opinion on that, so best talk with ochosi [13:50] i mean i'm fine with adding it [13:50] jjfrv8: it's a bit of a duplication, but if you think it makes sense, we can put it there [13:51] knome, I was also considering adding the icons next to the text in the most recent MR I put up last night. I'll past it in a minute [13:51] *paste [13:51] jjfrv8, sure [13:52] there is also the logout thing that used to be on the top panel, will it be reinstated? [13:52] nope [13:52] :) ok [13:52] that will need to be in release notes then [13:53] ochosi, i guess we should discuss that after b1 [13:53] knome: discuss what? [13:53] the panel layout in general, but more specifically, how people have seen whiskermenu and the action buttons [13:54] (and possibly workspace switcher) [13:54] knome, maybe put the icons next to the text in the last sentence here: http://imagebin.org/296326 [13:54] jjfrv8, absolutely [13:54] k [13:55] though, hmm [13:55] that's a tricky one [13:55] that makes me think we should *maybe* do that for other places as well [13:55] but i can definitely agree it's a good idea to add them there [13:57] not an issue if ppl switch to a different icon theme? [13:58] well that's their issue... :) [13:58] they can change the whiskermenu app icon as well [13:58] and then it isn't the xubuntu logo [13:59] works for me, then [14:00] I'd also like to add a paragraphs on panel customization and MenuLibre to the settings-preferences chapter. how's that sound? [14:01] at least the menulibre one is planned already [14:01] and panel customization doesn't sound bad either [14:01] will work on that this weekend. [14:01] thanks [14:01] slickymasterWork, ^ [14:03] bbl [14:17] ochosi, did you catch my ping yesterday? [14:22] zequence, you ready? :) [14:25] knome: Yep [14:25] so, umh [14:25] micahg? [14:25] ochosi? [14:25] bluesabre? [14:26] what's the exact scope of bug fixes you are committing for xfce? [14:26] i mean, will you keep on landing "any" bug fixes, or just security? [14:29] I will be commited to fixing bugs, with severity in mind (prioritizied by need and the time I have to spare - but always fixing critical ones) - by working with upstream. I implement patches - others do the actual fix [14:29] okay [14:29] i'm considering the current situation with xfce development, and that doesn't really look active [14:29] i mean, [14:30] you might end up writing all the bug fixes yourself [14:30] i'm also considering possible problems with gtk2 stuff getting outdated, and xfce depending on that [14:31] while the gtk2 packages aren't the xfce core, it is *possible* that some issues come up with those, and i don't who else is giving support/developing those in 5 years [14:31] I don't expect that much of the DE stuff will much change past the first three years [14:32] I think the Ubuntu five year support plan is mostly focused on servers [14:32] Am I wrong? [14:32] sure, but if you promise 5 years support for ubuntu studio desktop, you're alone the last 2 years anyway [14:32] There are kernel updates, and those can change stuff. But other than that, I don't believe much will change - of course, something could [14:32] i'm not saying xubuntu couldn't extend to 5 years [14:33] i'm considering any regression bugs [14:33] or security holes that weren't found before [14:33] or anything that relates to any of that [14:33] applications not supporting that old libs, etc. [14:34] I don't think Xubuntu would find it difficult technically to have 5 years support, but the question is rather - is it something Xubuntu users want? [14:34] I think Ubuntu Studio users might want that, all though only a small percentage [14:34] from my point of view, it's a question whether the developers are committed to 5 years [14:34] i mean, of course it matters if users want it or not [14:34] but even if users want it, [14:34] and we say we support for 5 years, [14:35] actually *doing* the bugfixes and stuff requires that developers are committed for that support length [14:36] if after 3 years there is a big bug in 14.04, and the xubuntu team is much stronger than now with many developers, i have nothing against landing a bugfix for that [14:36] even if we only "promised" 3 years of support [14:36] (saying, it's not a big issue to make it *LONGER* in the future) [14:38] all those reasons i just laid out were the reasons why we settled on 3y support for 12.04, and any of it hasn't changed since, for us at least [14:38] We're also considering a PPA for backports that otherwise would be next to impossible to get in otherwise [14:39] We have a different situation to DE based flavours [14:39] as i understand it, that wouldn't count as "support" as defined/"required" by canonical for the LTS support length [14:39] but it's fair considering the composition of your flavor [14:40] so maybe support LTS for 3y, but promise PPA updates for 2 more years [14:40] What our users want is a platform that is stable, and works for years. Once you get to know it, you like to stay with it [14:40] (as time permits) [14:40] sure, i understand that [14:41] I was intending to make this release of Ubuntu Studio DE agnostic, making it possible for users to select the DE during install. Haven't had the time to complete that ubiquity stuff yet [14:42] yeah, i remember that [14:42] I'm doing things in the order of importance right now, and that is still a possiblity [14:42] Even after FF [14:42] in a way, it makes defining the support length even harder [14:42] do you plan to support *any* installable DE for 3/5 years? [14:42] or basically just the "studio" packages? [14:43] I suppose in that perspective, it might seem a lot of work - only, it doesn't seem to be - if you look at the track record [14:43] There's a theoretical POW and then there's a practical one [14:44] knome: huh? was I invited to something? [14:44] it's a big lottery. [14:44] you don't want to end up winning the wrong kind of jackpot... [14:44] micahg, yeah, impromptu. see the backlog [14:45] We can end support at any time. If that is how it plays out [14:45] micahg, talking about US LTS support length vs xubuntu LTS support length [14:45] zequence, well that's not what you are supposed to do... [14:45] "we'll give support for 5 years" -- then don't [14:45] knome: Xubuntu commits to High and Critical bug fixes and security fixes for 3 years [14:45] * holstein +1 ^ [14:46] micahg, i know. i've announced that [14:46] and I'm happy to help with Xubuntu's part of that [14:46] micahg, studio is considering 5 years of support [14:46] micahg, and we're discussing if it's sane, and since they overlap with us quite a bit... [14:46] part of what was great about going xfce at the time was being able to take advantage of the xubuntu upstream team support [14:47] I know, I responded on their ML: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-devel/2014-February/005719.html [14:47] One never knows what will happen in three years. [14:47] Or in five [14:47] But, one can assume [14:47] well, we can assume both teams wont fade away in 3 years [14:47] zequence, well exactly... but promising 3 years is less of a gamble than 5 [14:48] micahg, right, not following that list, but cool :) [14:48] we can assume the ubuntustudio team wont get bigger than the xubuntu team in 3 and run out the last 2 [14:48] can I pick up from backscroll in 3 hours or so, I'm working on a deadline for something [14:48] i think if the xubuntu team finds 5 years a stretch, we should consider that [14:48] holstein: Have you actually looked at what sort of bugs have been fixed for XFCE for the last LTS? [14:49] i think it would be weird that xubuntu, who kind of specialises in xfce, only promises 3 years, [14:49] zequence: what is of note? [14:49] zequence: what am i missing? [14:49] when US, who have a lot more packages to support, would extend the support of xfce to 5 years [14:50] holstein: NOt a lot of packages has seen bug fixing. Only one past the relase of Precise, as far as I can tell, and that was the weather plugin [14:50] But, I might be missing something [14:50] So, please enlighten me, if I'm wrong [14:51] zequence: im not following [14:52] zequence: with libav now in universe, that's a security burden as well (though shared with Kubuntu, Edubuntu, and Kylin) [14:53] holstein: I'm saying, there's not much bug fixing happening even during the first three years [14:53] For Ubuntu Studio I fixed two, for Precise [14:53] zequence, what micah said about debian xfce stuff is correct as well [14:54] And I'm sure I could handle that sort of fixing, myself, when working with upstream [14:54] they only support xfce for 1-2 years [14:54] zequence: sure.. then just say that on the site [14:54] so that would leave you 3-4 years alone [14:54] zequence: with multimedia, you have a lot more security exposure than Xubuntu does [14:54] zequence, i'm not the one saying you shouldn't promise 5 years of support [14:55] zequence, i'm saying you should consider it carefully; we didn't do that, because we don't think it's sustainable [14:55] zequence, if you support the LTS for 5 years, you'll have, at one point, three LTS's to support at the same time. [14:55] that's a lot of maintaining work for xfce and multimedia packages [14:56] and potentially other dependencies [14:56] (at least for the oldest LTS of that bunch) [14:56] im not a code contributor like that.. i cant gurantee being able to fix a bug or address one [14:57] its really not up to me to put that burden on anyone when i cant take any of it on perononally [14:57] and as i've said for a few times, i don't think you can suddenly drop the LTS support length to 3y after committing to 5y [14:58] but you can always promise after 3y to extend the support if it looks viable, if you want [14:58] unofficially you can support 14.04 for 10 years if you wish [14:58] and unofficially you can promise 20 but stop after 3. [14:58] you shouldn't, but there's more room to move there [14:59] My judgement of the situation is that what worked for three years will continue to work for another two [14:59] yeah.. theres nothing wrong, as i see it, saying its officially 3, and as resources allow, supporting it more [14:59] zequence, sure, that's your decision [15:00] zequence, i just wanted to bring my opinion to the table for consideration [15:00] We could let our users know how the support works, by telling them that the first three years Xubuntu team is actively supporting the DE, and the last two years the Ubuntu Studio team is doing it [15:01] that would be fair for the users [15:02] also, nothing wrong with saying that in 3 years [15:03] "since support is ending upstream, and the team is growing, we will do our best to extend another 2 years the support of..." [15:06] i guess one more comment [15:06] since xubuntu is supporting xfce less than US, some questions might arise from that [15:07] we will answer those questions honestly; that we don't think it's doable for us to support xfce for more than 3 years [15:07] whether that in turn puts on more pressure on US, i don't know [15:07] but it's good to acknowledge that this isn't just a technical discussion [15:08] or just a technical decision [15:08] It's just a different view point. In reality, if bugs happen, they will - until someon fixes them [15:08] Support means a lot of things [15:08] absolutely [15:08] I'm only going to be commited to fixing bugs, especially severe ones [15:09] yes, ack [15:09] It might happen that some upgrade of a package would leave Xubuntu not booting at all [15:09] i'm not trying to convince you, don't understand me wrong [15:09] Even during the first three years [15:09] i'm just wanting to discuss all the facts around it [15:09] It's what can happen. And it might. But, the chances are, it won't [15:10] GridCube: if by your ping you mean the one where you said the shimmer PPA fixed it, yes :) [15:10] right thats what i meant [15:10] :) [15:11] Just because you say you will support something for a lot of years doesn't mean the system will not break during that time. [15:12] But, sure. I can see the point in how volotile it would be for one person to claim to support a bunch of DEs for a couple of years [15:12] and multimedia packages [15:13] and potentially other packages that the DEs support on [15:13] zequence, have you had a vote about this with your team? [15:14] knome: As an actual vote, no. Since our team is so small, and lacking of technical knowledge, I leave it to a argumentative discussion on our mail list [15:14] IÃ'd rather we did have a larger team, where one could make use of such systems [15:22] I'll consider proposing to reduce to three years, but if we do five years, will inform our users of how that works [15:22] zequence, for me that sounds a sensible thing to do [15:22] zequence, thanks for listening and taking the time, and feel free to ask if you have anything on your mind [15:23] IThe thing abou, especially audio production machines, is that you might have the same system, without internet connection (cause you don't want it), for 5 years - it's probably a tiny little group in all of humanity, using Ubuntu Studio for that, but it's a noble bunch [15:24] Now and then, you might want to update it [15:25] ..and you fear it each time [15:25] yeah, though if you're not connected to the internet, you can keep on using any release for as long as you want [15:25] without anything being prone to breaking [15:25] *even without any support promise* [15:25] that's true. But, each point release has new security updates [15:26] actually, [15:26] and other bug fixes [15:26] WeÃ're Ã¥articularly concerned about the kernel [15:26] with 3 years of support you already have .5 point releases [15:27] At this point, Trusty is not looking very good. The kernel has some pretty bad bugs in it [15:27] I might not install Trusty for a production machine until point release .1 or .2 [15:28] yep, i see many people doing that, especially on work machines [15:58] knome, jjfrv8 +1 on adding Settings Manager to WhiskerMenu's favorites and on adding the icons next to the text in the docs [15:59] yep, just wanted you to ack he's working on it :) [15:59] * elfy wonders what the default favourites are [16:00] elfy, "anything that is mentioned on the slide" [16:00] there's the issue that that might cause us to review them entirely so it would also be added through all chapters/section as needed so uniformity is kept [16:00] "the issue"? :) [16:00] oh, right [16:01] i think it would be fine to do that just on that spot, at least for now [16:01] we can extend later [16:01] the point is, those icons do not have a description visible at all times [16:01] things in the menu do [16:01] well, it's sort of an issue, since I think it's something that sooner or later will have to be addressed [16:02] well then we should do that [16:02] but it's not something that's release-critical [16:02] knome: so how do I see what's on the slide without running an image [16:03] agrre, but either way a review should be made to check if that is/will be needed elsewhere [16:03] elfy, bzr branch lp:ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu; cd ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu; ./test-slideshow.sh xubuntu [16:04] s/agrre/agree [16:04] slickymasterWork, i don't think we have any other places where there is no label for an icon [16:04] slickymasterWork, so in that way, it's logical even if we only add the icons in that place [16:04] I'll go through them, just to double check [16:04] thanks:) [16:06] I'll also ping jjfrv8 to see if he needs any help on the panel customization and MenuLibre paragraphs [16:06] nice [16:06] thanks for taking care [16:06] will you be around tonight? [16:06] less, but will be at least later [16:06] knome: so it's going to have mugshot and menulibre in there as well? [16:06] astraljava is coming here in some time :) [16:07] I thought on nagging you about the integration of NewDocs in the doc team [16:07] elfy, actually, sorry [16:07] elfy, anything that's on the default apps slide [16:07] but we can postponed that [16:07] slickymasterWork, well i'm around for some time now :) [16:07] and where was all this decided? [16:08] shell we hope to #ubuntu-newdocs then [16:08] s/hope/hop [16:08] elfy, i had a PM with ochosi. it'll land for b2, then we can reconsider that as a team, if needed [16:08] mmm [16:08] elfy, do you have any requests for those? [16:08] i mean, it does make sense to have the things we advertise in the slideshow [16:08] and doesn't feel like there is anything else we should list [16:09] or if there is, maybe we should add them to the slideshow as well :) [16:09] not really [16:09] oh right, [16:09] terminal also [16:09] in the favs [16:09] and help [16:09] that's the two things not on the default apps slide, but on favs [16:09] the docs startpage gets redone, so we don't need the x website/contribute to x either [16:10] mostly what is annoying me is that people have to work out that one of the icons on the menu - which you don't see unless you actually go to is it - is where you can actually turn the machine off, or logoff [16:10] rather than have it on the panel [16:10] elfy, yeah, as i said to ochosi, we should discuss this in a meeting [16:10] but it won't affect me [16:10] but he had a fair point, the panel layout proposal was up an in the wiki for a long time... [16:11] yea - and I can understand that - I do get extremely annoyed at 75% of -team never bothering to test [16:12] yep [16:12] yup [16:12] at the end of the day - whatever you decide is default won't last here any longer than the first install ;) [16:12] that's the same with pretty much everyone i think [16:12] and one reason why i chopped down the panel layout [16:13] so I'll just +0 it when it turns up as a discussion [16:39]