=== swstalcup is now known as v
ScottKQuintasan: I do have an amazon account, why?00:58
vhowdy ScottK!00:58
ScottKhowdy v.00:59
vI see your names in emails a lot, but I'm never on the chat of relays anymore00:59
ScottKAnd yet, here you are ...01:00
vjust thought I'd say howdy01:00
ScottKYeah.  Thanks.  Nice to see you again.01:00
apacheloggervalorie: 80% of the information is useless01:27
apacheloggerworkflows are all different, the only think useful on the page is where to find the packaging branches, and even for that we have more meaningful ways xD01:28
ahoneybunhey valorie 07:38
ahoneybunI'm trying to make a tahr icon for the new banner07:43
ahoneybuntring got this look http://wallpapo.com/wp-content/uploads/Ubuntu-13.04-Blue-Wallpaper-Full-HD.jpg07:44
valorieI haven't seen the official artwork07:44
ahoneybunbut I think from the side would be easier and better07:44
valorieoh, yes I have07:44
ahoneybunis there07:44
valoriethat blue looks rather washed out07:44
valorieis that our official color?07:44
valoriefrom the side?07:45
ahoneybunnot sure07:45
ahoneybunis there a logo already made?07:45
valoriewow, it is hard to google for this stuff, isn't it?07:49
valoriecanonical has artwork, I'm sure07:49
valoriethat we can use as a base07:49
ahoneybunhttp://i.stack.imgur.com/Plm0R.png something I don;t like about ubuntu07:55
valoriethe -desktop files are just metapackages07:58
valorieyes, pretend you are going to install one, and look at what it contains08:04
valorieit's a selection of packages08:04
valorieI believe it is the stuff we choose for the ISO08:04
valoriebut don't quote me on that08:05
valorienow, if it lists about a 100 packages, then you are sorta screwed08:07
ahoneybunstill cannot find official artwork for trusty08:11
valorieme either08:13
valoriethere is some nice TT fanart though08:13
ahoneybunit is almost 3:30am08:18
valorieyou are worse than me!08:20
valorieI turn out the light by then08:20
ahoneybunI don't normally stay up this late08:21
* ahoneybun needs ideas for a icon design08:22
ahoneybunI might have something08:29
valoriesecond one is better08:47
valorieI do not like the target on forehead look08:47
Riddell23:48 < maxy> Riddell: Ok, the idea started with kf5 as a sync point and scaleted rapidly into having the packaging in the  same repos, as done in other debian ubuntu teams10:11
Riddellshould we move our kf5 packaging into debian git?10:11
Riddell(or convince them to move theirs to launchpad bzr)10:12
snelediscover seem to be broken again. it shows no apps in categories: http://www.dodaj.rs/f/2n/J/2LUt3dMj/snapshot19.png10:15
Riddellyeah, known bug snele, dunno what's wrong but apol should be onto it10:17
yofelhow is our kf5 packaging situation any different from our kde sc one?10:19
Riddellit's not, except it's a fresh start10:19
RiddellI've always been reluctant to do it because a) canonical wouldn't let me and b) it might be more hassle and cause delays in some way10:20
Riddellbut a) isn't relevant any more10:20
Riddelland b) may well not be true10:20
Riddellbut I'm still uncertain10:20
Riddellother teams do it I belive10:21
yofelIIRC (correct me) it was about managing commit rights mostly - as it would be impossible to match archive upload permissions to branch commit rights10:21
yofelthat's pretty much broken anyway since we moved to universe10:21
yofelapachelogger: ^10:21
RiddellI'm not very interesting in matching archive upload to branch commit rights as I say on the Policy thread, we should have a lowish barrier of entry for new contributors10:21
* Riddell runs out for the day10:22
yofelhaving -members as an entry point for direct commit rights is sensible I believe. I don't remember what the d-q-k team's requirements for being added to the team on alioth are10:26
kubotu::qt-bugs:: [1286767] package libqtcore4 4:4.8.4+dfsg-0ubuntu18.1 failed to install/upgrade: unable to clean up ... @ https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1286767 (by Tomi)10:40
apacheloggeruniverse universe10:53
apacheloggermasters of the universe10:53
apacheloggersnele: was it you who had muon-updater display "your system is out of date, please update cache" on startup? if so, does that still happen with the latest version in trusty?10:54
apacheloggeryofel: how is that broken?10:55
apacheloggerkubuntu-dev | core-dev | motu10:56
yofeloh, motu is in there? nvm me then10:56
sneleapachelogger: just tried it. it doesn't show that screen any more :)10:57
apacheloggerno they aren't because we also have main bits (such as qt :P)10:57
apacheloggersnele: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=331665 you may want to comment here10:58
yofelwell, then it's broken.10:58
ubottuKDE bug 331665 in updater "muon-updater prompts to click missing "Check for updates" button" [Minor,Unconfirmed]10:58
apacheloggersnele: I think this issue is unique to 2.1.x10:58
apacheloggeryofel: how so?10:58
yofelapachelogger: mapping of uploads rights to commit rights (that's all I meant)10:58
apacheloggerkubuntu-packaging-universe vs kubuntu-packaging-main10:59
apacheloggerit ain't broken it's just kept at a more convenient setup10:59
yofelI call that broken (even if just slightly) :P11:00
apacheloggerit all comes back to the fact that motus didn't want to be killed off by the archive reorg11:00
apacheloggeryofel: no it's a bloody workaround to satisfy parts of the community being unreasonable11:00
sneleapachelogger: yeah that is the bug I was experiencing. Now on 14.04 it starts normally11:00
apacheloggerbecause motu was supposed to go away, and then the mimimi started11:00
apacheloggersnele: right, please comment11:01
apachelogger14.04 has 2.2 alpha111:01
apacheloggerso I am not sure we'll want to pursue this issue for 2.1 at all (given it does not actually break anything and 2.1 goes EOL in like 3 months, along with 13.10)11:02
yofelwas our issue with debian any different? (i.e. something else than whatever we sync from the debian archive at least having passed a DM review, unlike git?)11:02
yofelwhy :(11:03
apacheloggerI think we should move our packaging to kde :P11:04
apacheloggeror rather, debian should, then all derivates can actually maintain derived repositories, and everyone can easily get access because kde has a very low barrier for getting a dev upgrade as it were11:04
apacheloggerall hail the kde11:04
yofelwhat does gentoo gain by having their packaging there?11:04
apacheloggeryofel: gentoo is derived from debian?11:05
yofelthe debian-qt-kde team's entry barrier for the alioth membership isn't that hight either I believe11:05
apacheloggerbut here's what everyone gains: all the flipping silly patches are all in the same place11:06
yofelapachelogger: I meant having it on the kde side11:06
yofel(they were in kdesupport or where was it?)11:06
apacheloggerand everyone can fork anything becuase everything is at the same place11:06
apacheloggerand everyone can steal build workarounds from each other11:06
apacheloggeralso everyone feels closer to the kde and perhaps stops breaking the branding11:07
yofelwell, we could first move to debian and then convince them to move to kde later.11:10
yofelMaybe that would start an interesting discussion about why they want to stick to alioth but look weird at us for keeping our own repos while being a derivative11:10
apacheloggerwell, I guess here is the main question: what do we get from moving to debian?11:13
yofela cookie? ^^11:14
apacheloggerwell that's not very useful now is it :P11:16
yofelcollective maintenance would be one point, but I'm not sure how well that would play out with them always working in different timeframes than us11:16
=== chiefw0tj is now known as tfieber
lordievaderGood afternoon.12:13
BluesKajHowdy folks12:17
ScottKyofel: There would be less risk of Kubuntu doing to initial packaging work and then Debian reworking it differently.15:29
ScottKI think working in common makes sense.15:29
ScottKThe biggest problem will probably be Qt5 anyway.15:29
ScottKNote that trusty is STILL on 5.0.2 while Debian has 5.2.0 in testing/unstable and 5.2.1 in experimental.15:30
yofelright, but that's more of a downside for them if they have to re-do all our work?15:32
ScottKNo, then when we try to merge back it's a pain.15:32
ScottKSo it sucks for both of us.15:32
yofelwell, if we merge at all. Without a convergence point, e.g. kde sc is unmergable now.15:33
yofelYeah, I would rather have everyone improve the same set of packages15:33
ScottKI think for kf5 it definitely makes sense to try it.15:35
ScottKIf it doesn't work out, we can always fork and go back to the way it is now.15:35
yofelapachelogger: leaving aside your tendency to want to move to kde. In respect to commit permissions, maxy suggested that one could potentially make a debian-qt-kde-dev team just with DM/DD/kubuntu-dev that manages the repositories15:36
apacheloggeryofel: tbh, I don't think permissions ever were a real issue15:38
apacheloggerin fact I don't think there ever was any opposition other than people claiming bzr is better than git15:38
apacheloggerthere's many arguments to be made, they are all not very compelling though15:40
apacheloggerfor example spreadign out our stuff too much15:40
apacheloggerour infrastructure would basically spread from random-ubuntu-service (iso tracker), to launchpad, to alitoh, to kde15:40
apacheloggerand since I know Riddell likes low entry barriers, I think wrapping one's head around that ought to be the biggest show stopper ever15:42
yofelwell, I'm on your side in that discussion. In any case, I'm not convinced that low entry barriers justify duplicating so much work15:45
apacheloggeryofel: I am not opposed to the idea, my only comment is that ultimately everyone should converge on KDE :P15:45
apacheloggerother than that I really do not care15:45
apacheloggerthough if you want a general comment: if a change does not make the product better it's a pointless change15:46
yofelwell, I want to reduce merges. In kde sc we had many packaging regressions every time we merged, and that's gotten to the point where we're essentially not really merging anymore now.15:49
yofelIf we could get at least kf5 to a point where the packages work both in debian and kubuntu and we all work on the same damn thing it would be less of a pain in the end15:49
yofel*If* we can work out some of the workflow diff that we have just because of launchpad that is15:50
apacheloggerwell, you can't elminiate merges15:50
apacheloggerthey are a result of the different release cycles15:50
yofelnot really - if you work on the same repo and just upload as 'upload from debian git'15:51
yofelthen you'll have no diff to merge15:51
apacheloggerthe only way to reduce the regressions introduced by merges is conducting regular merges15:51
apacheloggeryofel: maybe15:51
apacheloggerwhat about kubuntu branding patches?15:52
yofelcould be done with a build-time switch? (maybe)15:52
yofelwe've got ton of packages with distro-specific stuff in the build system15:52
apachelogger"does a build-time switch it make the product better" :P15:53
yofelwhy does ubuntu not maintain it's own copy of gcc?15:53
apacheloggerit does?15:53
yofelthat packaging has release names and distro codenames ifdef'd all over the place15:53
yofelmaybe, but tons of the ubuntu specific changes are part of the debian package15:54
apacheloggerbecause if upmerging I think15:54
apacheloggerthough I could not possibly comment on the factuality of it15:54
apacheloggeryofel: I think what ought to happen first is do a failure analysis and find out why exactly merges introduce regressions15:55
apacheloggerthen see if repo restructuring/sharing/moving would actually solve those15:56
yofelwell, people overlook things, like not adding back versioned deps that are needed etc.15:56
apacheloggerwhy did we need them and debian didn't?15:56
yofelwhether *those* could be solved, I'm not sure15:56
apacheloggereitherway, I'd much rather have some hard metrics :P15:57
yofelthe case I think of was part of our kde-sc-dev-latest deprecation15:57
apacheloggeryofel: so there's a platform delta already that sharing doesn't solve :P15:57
yofelthat's why we should try kf5 and see where it goes. kde sc would be A LOT of work15:57
apacheloggerwe should find out why things fail, then see how this can be avoided, and then possibly try with kf5 whether it actually solves the issue15:58
yofelapachelogger: it is a platform specific workaround that breaks *nothing* on the debian side15:58
yofelthey could just ignore it15:58
apacheloggerso why does the packaging break?15:58
apacheloggerif the delta is contained within the platform then why do individual packages regress if they ought not have invididual delta?15:59
yofelhuman errors because of so much diff?15:59
apachelogger..micro merges... :P15:59
yofelyeah right, do a micro merge for kde-workspace15:59
apacheloggerthat's effectively what a shared repo with different release artifacts is16:00
yofelwell, then we might as well have one repo that applies platform specific changes when needed. At least to the point where we really only have the changes that cannot be kept in debian as our diff16:01
apacheloggerright, but that is different from a shared repo16:02
yofeldefine shared repo please?16:02
apacheloggerwhich is the reason I am saying that first you must analysis why things fail, devise requirements for how to make them not/less fail and then implement a solution16:02
apacheloggeryofel: one single repository shared across all the world16:02
apacheloggerversus two repositories where one is a fork of the other16:03
yofelwell, we might not be getting one shared over all across the world, but we could share a lot at least in debian16:04
yofeland latter is what really should be kept to a minimum16:05
apacheloggeryofel: across our world of kde with debian16:05
apacheloggerthe point is you need to know exactly what the problems are we try to solve and whether they can be solved etc.16:06
apacheloggerbecause say we have per-package delta that simply cannot be conveniently isolated, which would then require two repos or at least a different branch16:06
apacheloggerto facilitate micro merging you'd then need some additional automation along the lines of "daily merge $master into $kubuntumaster"16:07
yofelwhy daily? one could merge whenever we start a new version (or so)16:08
apacheloggerranodm example16:08
yofeland git merge is a hell of a lot better than what we're doing right now16:08
apacheloggeryou are thinking implementation, I am thinking problem solving :P16:09
yofelwell, I know some of the problem with kde that I'll discuss with debian. Still wanted to see how much you disagree on the doability16:10
yofel*kde sc16:10
apacheloggerI do not disagree on the doability at all16:11
apacheloggerI'd just like to be this correctly planned out because if you adjust automation for setup scenario 1 and then it turns out that will not work and we'll need to use setup scenario 2, then we end up ajdusting all the automation again16:12
apacheloggerfor no reason, other than not having understood the problems we try to solve and the requirements we canot change16:12
yofelsure, that'd be an utter waste of time16:14
josehey guys, just as a side-note, maybe https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Membership should be updated?16:44
josethe benefits of ubuntu membership are a lot more now16:44
Riddelljose: apachelogger is going over much of the wiki stuff17:10
Riddelljose: see https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Policies#A.2BAH4-kubuntu-members17:11
joseoh, got it :)17:14
=== ryanakca_ is now known as ryanakca
soeethere is some updates that breaks oxygen style ?20:00
soeeif i open system settings and check App style i have CDE enabled and oxygen is missing 20:01
Riddellkubotu: newversion calligra 2.8.021:10
ahoneybunwe have some systemd things coming in already?21:19
ahoneybunRiddell, I have a design for a banner for 14.0421:19
yofelahoneybun: as in? (systemd). We've had logind for a while now, but I don't think we'll have proper systemd until the next release21:21
ahoneybunyofel, Setting up libsystemd-daemon0:amd64 (204-5ubuntu13) ...21:22
ahoneybunSetting up systemd-services (204-5ubuntu13) ...21:22
ahoneybunSetting up libpam-systemd:amd64 (204-5ubuntu13) ...21:22
ahoneybunSetting up libsystemd-login0:amd64 (204-5ubuntu13) ...21:22
yofelah, we've had that for a while now21:22
yofelit's for logind21:22
ahoneybunyofel, http://imgur.com/AddHXmE what do you think?21:22
yofelthe horns look... choppy, kinda. Otherwise kinda nice21:23
ahoneybunthe ears a bit too21:24
ahoneybunyofel, http://imgur.com/kciydN0 I only have half the head on purpose21:33
ahoneybunRiddell, http://imgur.com/kciydN022:18
bassois there something wrong with samba?23:51

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!