bluesabreUnit193: do you want credit for this one? :)00:02
* bluesabre feels a bit lazy00:02
Unit193bluesabre: http://pastebin.com/kTikACG1 nope, you're good.00:03
bluesabrenow I don't have a choice00:03
Unit193Could comment on the bug too if you want. :P00:05
ochosiali1234: so much for bodhi-linux really using the greeter: "We are actually hoping to replace lightdm with the EFL login manager entrance before our release, so not much went into that one."00:10
knomeUnit193, see: #x, what package is that?00:12
knomeUnit193, or in other words, can you make a list of all packages that need updating with new version numbers so we are able to refer to that for T+1?00:12
knomeUnit193, i bet you remember that out of your head anyway.00:12
Unit193Uh, no, no I don't, I didn't do the last merge, I have no idea!00:13
knomereally, it would be helpful.00:14
knomewhen you have time00:14
knomei'll let you delegate, as long as it gets done.00:14
Unit193I can only think of -artwork and -docs, -default-settings generally doesn't need it.00:16
ochosiali1234, andrzejr_: oha, seems like they switched from just pushing pixbufs to indicators, so theoretically they should be able to show in different sizes now (bug #784055 on launchpad)00:17
ubottubug 784055 in indicator-multiload (Ubuntu) "compiz CPU usage increases dramatically when running indicator-multiload" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/78405500:17
Unit193knome: Where you want it?  Please not the wiki?00:18
Unit193What page if so. :/00:18
knomehttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Processes :P00:19
knomeor you can send mail to lyz@ubuntu.com00:19
pleia2I saw that00:19
knomeyes? :)00:19
pleia2I like wikis!00:20
Unit193Even with how much I hate email, I'd almost prefer the second.00:20
knomeweren't you in progress to enhance that page anyway?00:20
knomeso makes sense to centralize data00:20
knomeput it in the lyz-cloud00:20
bluesabreUnit193: added a comment, with mandatory extra words00:21
Unit193Nice, checking.00:22
Unit193Waaaait, I get subscribed, again? :P00:22
pleia2oh right, I have on my list to figure out all the website stuff to update upon release00:23
brainwashbluesabre, Unit193: thanks for taking care of this issue00:26
* Unit193 points to bluesabre.00:26
brainwashI feel like I really should apply for bug control membership00:28
Unit193knome: So I didn't know where to put it on the wiki, but I can plop it somewhere and break it.  Mockup is: http://unit193.net/pre-bump.html00:37
knomeUnit193, looks good.00:44
Unit193Disclaimer, ochosi did the bump for artwork, and x-d-s didn't get one so I have no idea how that's done.00:44
Unit193ochosi: Did you want -community in?00:45
Unit193Updated it for a little post-release. :P01:15
Unit193ochosi: xfpm: mouse over and get information; indicator-power: mouse over and it sits there, like it's eating glue.  I'm in favor of xfpm and am now getting rid of the other.01:20
micahgochosi: didn't merge yet, did update meta though, will do another pass on merges tomorrow, still trying to get a little work done before bed03:53
micahgkeep poking me until I do it though :)03:54
elfybluesabre: http://pastebin.com/VCHMJgwm07:17
elfyknome: there is something wrong in image tracker world again - if you look at our upgrade tests, we have dekstop and LTS desktop, reports are being shown against both even if only reported against one07:25
ochosiUnit193: right, but it's far more consistent to use the indicator in this case. also, if you have wireless mice/keyboards, it groups them nicely08:40
=== soren_ is now known as soren
bluesabreelfy, our menu system is set up to display things with specific categories in certain folders11:26
bluesabreI can do more hard-forcing of categories in a folder though11:27
bluesabremaybe making those items unremovable11:27
knomeelfy, hmph12:04
elfybluesabre: ok - I'm ok with that - what's the categorie to get something to show in Accessories :)13:26
elfyI just think that if something to set up a menu - let's you put that thing in an area of the menu - then that is where it should appear - I might be being old-fashioned though :p13:27
elfyknome: not at all sure how we can fix that - kind of screws up the reporting for us 13:28
ali1234Category: Accessability, Core, Legacy, utility OR Filename: exo-file-manager.desktop, exo-terminalemulator.desktop, xfce4-about.desktop, xfce4-run.desktop13:29
ali1234from /etc/xdg/menus/xfce-applications.menu13:30
elfywell - I guess that will all need documenting then13:31
knomeelfy, yeah, maybe talk with balloons? i'm not able to be around much today14:38
elfyknome: ack16:07
schproodleelfy, with vbox 'mouse integration' on would one be able to have the mouse pointer dragged to another workspace?17:11
schproodleelfy, can't drag pointer or window to another workspace on my 14.04 vm17:13
schproodleelfy, the vim has 'mouse integration' enabled with guest additions eh17:14
GridCubei've noticed that there is no indicator of active virtual desktop on our new panel layout17:18
schproodleGridCube, no switcher by default it seems17:23
schproodleworkspace switcher can be added of course17:25
GridCubeyes, but users who know nothing of virtual desktops will be baffled because their active windows will dissapear if the accidentally use the scroll wheel on the desktop, a thing that happens easily if you use a touchpad17:26
GridCube:) we just need to add the switcher, or get rid of the extra desktop17:27
schproodleI agree -- file a bug for ubiquity as the install window seems to disappear.17:27
schproodleby inadvertent mouse wheel activation17:28
GridCubebut thats not a bug on ubiquity schproodle 17:28
schproodleno, rather about how ubiquity is working xubuntu install17:29
GridCubeno, its just a feature that is currently missing a visual aid17:29
schproodlethat is what I suggested in the report or alternatively no other workspace, just one17:30
schproodleas you appeared to imply :) if I read that correctly17:31
elfyschproodle: that's entirely possible down to it being in a virtual machine - especially at the moment17:32
elfyGridCube: that needs to be brought up in a meeting then17:32
schproodleelfy, ok17:33
GridCubeelfy, k, can you bring it as i most probably wont be at any meeting thats held at the current hours17:33
elfyif it fails in a hardware scenario then fail the testcase17:33
elfyGridCube: add it to the meeting page17:33
GridCubeelfy, should i open a bug report for it?17:34
elfy*shrug* 17:34
elfyprobably better to do a quick spec as to why there should be one 17:35
elfyit's not a bug as such - more a difference of opinion :)17:35
schproodleBug 128271917:37
ubottubug 1282719 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "install window is not 'sticky'; scroll wheel makes it 'disappear'" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/128271917:37
elfythat again isn't a bug - but opinion17:39
schproodlemy opinion is that it would appear to interfere with an installation and add confusion to the process.17:40
elfyand my opinion is that people should learn that the operating system they are using - uses the mouse wheel to change desktops 17:41
schproodlejust that GridCube recorded a similar concern here17:41
elfyknome: ok - sussed that - I'll do 2 new testcases then we need to use those for LTS or vice versa, then I'll spend some time editing results now so we have real numbers17:44
elfyschproodle: I don't have anything to do with what gets put on the panel - nor what is seeded - I am just one of a bunch on -team 17:45
elfyI don't think it's an issue - but I don't care either what gets put on a default panel much as mine is never a default panel17:46
schproodlejust chatting about it with GridCube eh. :) Thanks for taking an interest. 17:46
GridCubeelfy, knome added a new and emerging item to the meeting wiki17:56
GridCubei added17:57
elfythanks GridCube 17:58
knomeGridCube, do you realize that there was actually a lot of time to give feedback on the proposal?19:01
knomeGridCube, and that you approved it yourself in the meeting?19:01
knomeGridCube, and now you want to revert the decision?19:01
GridCubeno, i dont want revert the destion19:02
knomeGridCube, yes, it is what you are actually proposing.19:03
knomeGridCube, the workspace switcher not being in the proposal, and you approving it means that you are okay with no workspace switcher19:03
knomeGridCube, now you want to add it back.19:03
knomeGridCube, how is that not reverting the vote/decision?19:03
knomeplease explain me, because i fail to understand19:04
GridCubewell, i did not notice it gone, and now i do19:04
knomereferring to our last discussion, is this the result we get when the experts show the team something?19:05
knomethey are too lazy or too uninterested to really try something out19:05
knomeand then they do a decision19:05
knomeand after that, come back telling "no, that's not what i want"?19:06
GridCubeknome, i always though that the workspace switcher was part of the indicators 19:09
GridCubethis https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/Whiskermenu19:09
GridCubeshows that indicators will still be present19:09
GridCubeso i never though they would get removed19:09
knomefor what reason did you think the workspace is part of the indicators?19:09
GridCubei might be an ignorant then19:09
knomeit is not an indicator applet19:09
GridCubebecause its in the same area19:09
knomeit is a separate applet19:09
knomealso, why didn't you ask, but just thought?19:10
GridCubewell its a different applet, not i know that19:10
GridCubebecause i did not though of that, because i always remove it because i dont use multiple virtual desktops so i dont have it present19:10
elfyregardless of whether people should or shouldn't have done something - we're now not giving anyone any indication of what's going on - anywhere - that said I don't care 19:10
GridCubeknome, also im not attacking the panel in no way, im just saying that i, and maybe others, overlooked this19:11
knomeGridCube, what does the overlooking tell about?19:11
knomeelfy, i'm not sure i follow your comment..19:11
elfythat people are tired imo19:11
knometired of what?19:12
GridCubeknome, that not everyone is on the same page on everything ever19:12
elfyjust tired tired knome :)19:12
elfypeople miss things 19:12
elfypeople are people19:12
knomeGridCube, so, are you saying that when the team proposes, they should specifically mention every little detail they changed?19:13
knomeif it's something that is so interesting/important, maybe it shouldn't have slipped under everybody's sight.19:13
GridCubeknome, why are you attacking me?19:13
GridCubeif its not then it will be disregarded on the meeting19:14
knomeGridCube, i'm not attacking you. i'm just trying to make you see how this looks from my point of view19:14
GridCubeI sincerely don't like the way you are pushing me. I'm just trying to say something i've not seen being said before. 19:14
knomeGridCube, it's not the first time you are noticing something has changed and jumped on the team for changing things19:14
GridCubeknome, i have never had the intention to attack anyone19:15
knomeGridCube, i'm also sharing the frustration with ochosi19:15
knomehe did the proposal months ago19:15
knomenobody looked at it19:15
knomethen when it was proposed in the meeting, everybody agreed on it19:15
knomeand after that, people have several times came back and said "this change is wrong"19:16
knomeeven if they participated in the meeting and approved the changes19:16
knomecan you even consider how that feels for ochosi?19:16
GridCubeyes, I see what you mean knome 19:17
knomei agree that this might have escalated too quickly and too far, but seriously, the team and others had months to give feedback19:17
knomethen it was officially approved19:17
knomeand only after that we get the feedback and "oh this is not good"19:17
knomeand please don't say i'm attacking you19:18
brainwashwe should explain at least why it is gone, in the FAQ for 14.0419:18
knomei'm just pointing out that this isn't the way we are supposed to work19:18
knomebrainwash, is it a FAQ?19:18
brainwashit will be :)19:19
GridCubeknome, it will be19:19
knomeGridCube, how do you know?19:19
knomeyou said you don't use it19:19
knomehow can we predict anything?19:19
knomeit's sad that this is brought up now, and not before19:20
knomei can understand the rationale19:20
knomebut i can't agree with the way and time it's brought up19:20
GridCubeisnt the time for testing the time to see what mistakes we all made?19:21
brainwashnothing wrong with giving feedback after testing it19:21
knomebrainwash, except that there was months to see the proposal, and one could expect people to test something before they vote on it?19:21
GridCubeknome, i told you, i saw the proposal and saw nothing wrong with it because i overlooked the switcher19:22
knomeGridCube, i understand that.19:22
GridCubei sincerely though it was part of the indicators pack19:22
knomenext time, please ask if you are unsure19:23
GridCubei was not unsure19:23
GridCubei did not know it was to be deleted19:23
brainwashit's quite easy to overlook it, because many people consider the workspace switcher to be essential19:23
knomei've changed the meeting item to a more neutral tone one "discuss..." from "needs to be added"19:23
knomebrainwash, then if many people consider it essential, and it wasn't in the proposal, why didn't anybody say anything?19:23
GridCubebecause we never though it was to be removed?19:24
brainwashI did, but I'm not part of the team19:24
GridCubenevermid, I have to go19:24
GridCubegood day to all and sorry for always being a bother19:24
ali1234wait, you're removing the workspace switcher?19:24
brainwashand I'm just concerned that we don't inform the users about why we removed the switcher19:25
knomeali1234, proposed since months.19:25
ali1234well, i don't really care about the default19:25
ali1234as long as i can still install it19:25
brainwashneither do I19:25
ali1234probably better off without it for most people, tbh19:25
knomewell, the community is here to care about the default...19:25
knomeand i'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed19:26
knomebut there's something wrong with this way to make decisions...19:26
ali1234where do these proposals and discussion take place?19:26
knomevote and approve first, then go "oops!"19:26
ali1234cos i don't remember it19:26
ochosithe proposal and voting happened in meetings19:26
knomeali1234, it was discussed and voted in a meeting, and has been available in the wiki for a long time19:26
ochosithe proposal was put up on the wiki page19:26
ochosiand there was a blueprint referring to it19:26
ali1234how long are we talking? weeks? months?19:27
knomenot explicitly advertised every week, but it was there, and it was discoverable19:27
knomeit was up months.19:27
ali1234remember i've only been here like 3 months19:27
knomeand in the meeting, people were specifically pointed to that page19:27
knomeand told to review it19:27
ochosiali1234: hah, now that indicators actually provide icon names instead of pixbufs hardcoded to 22px, the skype icon ends up in xfce4-indicator-plugin too large and is hence cut off :}19:28
ali1234skype isn't an indicator tho19:28
knomeif any feature we proposed dropping was essential, why didn't *anybody* in the meeting notice it?19:28
ali1234it's a tray icon19:28
ali1234i dunno. was i at the meeting?19:28
ochosiali1234: nope, it's an indicator if you install the right package (sni-qt i think it is)19:28
ali1234ochosi: cool, i didn't know that19:29
ali1234the skype icon actually gets cut off when it's a tray icon also19:29
ochosiali1234: see how it's not scaled down anymore (which it used to as an indicator): http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-2014-03-05-202925.php19:29
ali1234but that's pretty standard with tray icons19:29
ochosiwill ping trevinho about that19:29
ali1234hmm yeah that is quite a bit worse19:30
ochosijust to see what is going on 19:30
ochosibut i guess it's actually the xfce4-indicator-plugin not caring about sizes anymore, because it used to be hardcoded to 22px19:30
ali1234it's probably some bug with the plugin19:30
ochosiwell, the code for scaling icons was remove19:30
brainwashknome: http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2014/xubuntu-devel.2014-02-13-19.01.log.html#l-12819:30
ochosibecause until recently, it caused more problems than it helped (fuzzy icons in all sizes etc)19:30
ali1234brainwash: ah yeah i remember that19:31
knomebrainwash, http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2014/xubuntu-devel.2014-02-13-19.01.log.html#l-19019:31
ali1234i assumed when dropping the bottom panel, all stuff actually on it would get moved to the top :)19:31
ochosiheh, that's crazy though19:32
ochosiall the launchers19:32
brainwashso yeah, I did not bother to ask again about it, because it was already too late back then19:32
ali1234well i assume the window list will be on the top panel?19:32
knomeali1234, assumed because...?19:32
knomebrainwash, i'm sorry, that was a bit emotional response19:32
ali1234knome: assumed because the bottom panel contains the task list and the desktop would be useless without it?19:33
ochosiali1234: no, not true19:33
ochosithe bottom panel only contained launchers19:33
knomeali1234, the top panel was specifically said to include that though19:33
knomeright, that's true19:33
ali1234(launchers and workspace switcher...)19:34
ochosithe task-list has been in the top panel for ages19:34
ali1234i assume?19:34
ochosiyeah, just saying19:34
ali1234is there a proposal on which indicators to ship yet?19:35
ochosiyup, it's also noted on the wiki-page19:36
ali1234which wiki page?19:36
ali1234that page seems badly named :/19:37
ochosiyeah, well initially it was considered that the panel layout would stand and fall with the inclusion of whiskermenu19:38
ochosiso i kept using it, since ppl already knew it was there19:38
ali1234i don't think we should ship with indicators explicitly hidden in the config19:39
ochosiwell the appmenu simply doesnt work19:39
ali1234hmm good point19:39
ali1234does hiding it actually make it not crash though?19:39
ochosi(i also put it there out of tradition, as indicator-plugin always shipped with that one blacklisted)19:39
ochosinever crashed here, anyway19:40
ali1234ok fair enough, +1 on that19:40
ochosican't say it can't happen19:40
ali1234that all seems reasonable19:41
ochosithanks, it's not like i didn't take time to think about these things19:41
ochosiand i also tried to discuss them with ppl19:41
ali1234datetime has the config panel issues, printers is going away19:41
ochosibut it's hard to get ppl to test things ahead of time19:42
ali1234i don't think there's any others really except stuff like cpufreq and china-weather etc19:42
ali1234oh and session, which also has issues19:42
ochosiyeah, session has too many issues19:43
ochosiwould need many patches19:43
ali1234i'm not really convinced about the bold clock - i tend to think everything should use exactly the same font unless it is really important19:43
elfyeevening ochosi 19:43
ochosihi elfy 19:44
ali1234but i'll probably end up using datetime anyway cos i prefer it's calendar19:44
ochosidatetime has terrible recommends19:44
ali1234yes it does and i wouldn't suggest shipping it19:44
ochosiand a few depends that i personally dont like for a calendar-popup19:44
Unit193ochosi: So does -power19:44
ali1234it also doesn't work properly unless you hack the .desktop file19:44
ochosiUnit193: which ones do you mean?19:46
ochosiand yeah, i already read that you're against -power19:46
Unit193Yes you did, and responded, I don't agree. :P19:46
ochosiso, which ones are you referring to then19:47
Unit193unity control, gnome control, etc, etc.19:47
ochosithat's a recommend19:47
Unit193I know, < ochosi> datetime has terrible recommends19:47
ochosiand doesn't even effect us because it has " | xfce4-power-manager"19:47
ochosiso that really doesn't count19:47
ochosidatetime doesn't have " | thunderbird" afaik19:48
Unit193When I tried to install, I had to use --no-install-recommends19:48
Unit193Not been uploaded with xfpm yet, then?19:48
ochosiwell you go and check19:48
Unit193Anywho, it tried to pull those in.19:49
ali1234datetime has the added fun that it depends on unity-control-center and then doesn't even work because the unity-control-center applet is OnlyShowIn=Unity19:49
ochosihehe, exactly19:50
ali1234it should be possible to make it show up in xfce-settings though, with the right .desktop magic. after all, nvidia-settings can do it19:53
knomeso, with a more or less brief discussion with ochosi, we're proposing the following in tomorrow's meeting:20:01
knomere: the workspaces: drop the scroll-to-changed-workspace feature instead of adding the applet back to panel20:02
knomere: the action buttons missing: change the logout icon in whiskermenu to be a generic "shutdown" icon to represent the action that many/most people use from that dialog better20:03
ali1234that should be turned off anyway, it's horrible20:03
elfyas long as I can tunr it back on 20:03
knomerationale: we think these changes represent the spririt of the originally proposed panel layout the best20:04
knomeelfy, sure, if you want.20:04
ali1234what about turning off those couple of things requested on the xfce mailing list?20:04
knomewhen have we hardcoded any settings?20:04
ali1234window shade and something else?20:04
ochosiyeah, i don't mind turning off shading20:04
knomeanother discussion, take it up with ochosi 20:04
knomefor the record, ok for me as well20:05
ali1234"save session" - that was the other20:05
knomeguess we could also talk about changing window transparency with alt+scroll20:05
ali1234that no longer works20:06
knomethen let's not discuss it20:06
ali1234alt+scroll zooms in now20:06
knomeunless somebody wants to reintroduce it20:06
ali1234(if compositor is enabled, same goes for transparency though)20:06
knomeso zoom+transparency on alt+scroll?20:06
ali1234yes but zooming gets the event first so the transparency change doesn't happen20:07
ali1234i didn't even know the transparency thing existed20:07
knomedo you happen to know how to turn *both* features off?20:07
ali1234yeah, turn off compositing20:07
knome...without turning off compositing20:07
ali1234you can't20:07
knomeeven with an xfconfig key?20:08
ali1234transparency change is also bound to horizontal scrolling, but most people don't have that20:08
ali1234well you could make your alt key not be alt, but that would break quite a lot of other stuff...20:08
knomesounds like a bug to me, deceived as a feature :)20:09
knomethere definitely should be a way to disable both/either of those features20:09
ali1234zooming is bound to scroll + whatever key you set for easymove/resize20:09
ali1234yes, i agree, patches welcome20:09
ali1234the key should also be independently configurable20:09
knomewell you know i'm not a programmer20:09
knomei can file a bug (if not before, after the T cycle)20:09
ali1234i do now :)20:09
knomei'll see when i have the time and motivation to file that bug20:13
knomebut it does seem like a bit meh, considering much more is configurable in xfce20:13
knomeit doesn't necessarily have to be in a GUI, but some key for it could be nice20:13
ali1234i didn't know how to make a configuration option20:13
knomenot blaming you20:16
knomebesides, my original problem was with the transparency stuff anyway20:16
knomeso it existed before your patch...20:16
knomeoff for now20:18
knomesee you all later20:18
ochosiUnit193: https://code.launchpad.net/~ochosi/indicator-power/recommend-xfce4-powermanager/+merge/20701820:37
ochosiapproved but not yet merged20:37
ochosiso anyway, i'm sure this will go into the final release20:37

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