[00:00] ah [00:02] Unit193: do you want credit for this one? :) [00:02] * bluesabre feels a bit lazy [00:03] bluesabre: http://pastebin.com/kTikACG1 nope, you're good. [00:03] lol [00:03] now I don't have a choice [00:05] Could comment on the bug too if you want. :P [00:10] ali1234: so much for bodhi-linux really using the greeter: "We are actually hoping to replace lightdm with the EFL login manager entrance before our release, so not much went into that one." [00:12] Unit193, see: #x, what package is that? [00:12] Unit193, or in other words, can you make a list of all packages that need updating with new version numbers so we are able to refer to that for T+1? [00:12] Unit193, i bet you remember that out of your head anyway. [00:13] Uh, no, no I don't, I didn't do the last merge, I have no idea! [00:13] :P [00:14] excuses! [00:14] really, it would be helpful. [00:14] when you have time [00:14] i'll let you delegate, as long as it gets done. [00:16] I can only think of -artwork and -docs, -default-settings generally doesn't need it. [00:17] ali1234, andrzejr_: oha, seems like they switched from just pushing pixbufs to indicators, so theoretically they should be able to show in different sizes now (bug #784055 on launchpad) [00:17] bug 784055 in indicator-multiload (Ubuntu) "compiz CPU usage increases dramatically when running indicator-multiload" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/784055 [00:18] knome: Where you want it? Please not the wiki? [00:18] What page if so. :/ [00:19] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Processes :P [00:19] or you can send mail to lyz@ubuntu.com [00:19] I saw that [00:19] yes? :) [00:20] I like wikis! [00:20] Even with how much I hate email, I'd almost prefer the second. [00:20] weren't you in progress to enhance that page anyway? [00:20] probably [00:20] heh [00:20] so makes sense to centralize data [00:20] put it in the lyz-cloud [00:21] Unit193: added a comment, with mandatory extra words [00:22] Nice, checking. [00:22] Waaaait, I get subscribed, again? :P [00:23] oh right, I have on my list to figure out all the website stuff to update upon release [00:23] :) [00:24] hehe [00:26] bluesabre, Unit193: thanks for taking care of this issue [00:26] * Unit193 points to bluesabre. [00:27] 'Welcome? [00:28] I feel like I really should apply for bug control membership [00:28] we=? [00:37] knome: So I didn't know where to put it on the wiki, but I can plop it somewhere and break it. Mockup is: http://unit193.net/pre-bump.html [00:44] Unit193, looks good. [00:44] Disclaimer, ochosi did the bump for artwork, and x-d-s didn't get one so I have no idea how that's done. [00:45] ochosi: Did you want -community in? [01:15] Updated it for a little post-release. :P [01:20] ochosi: xfpm: mouse over and get information; indicator-power: mouse over and it sits there, like it's eating glue. I'm in favor of xfpm and am now getting rid of the other. [03:53] ochosi: didn't merge yet, did update meta though, will do another pass on merges tomorrow, still trying to get a little work done before bed [03:54] keep poking me until I do it though :) [07:17] bluesabre: http://pastebin.com/VCHMJgwm [07:25] knome: there is something wrong in image tracker world again - if you look at our upgrade tests, we have dekstop and LTS desktop, reports are being shown against both even if only reported against one [08:40] Unit193: right, but it's far more consistent to use the indicator in this case. also, if you have wireless mice/keyboards, it groups them nicely === soren_ is now known as soren [11:26] elfy, our menu system is set up to display things with specific categories in certain folders [11:27] I can do more hard-forcing of categories in a folder though [11:27] maybe making those items unremovable [12:04] elfy, hmph [13:26] bluesabre: ok - I'm ok with that - what's the categorie to get something to show in Accessories :) [13:27] I just think that if something to set up a menu - let's you put that thing in an area of the menu - then that is where it should appear - I might be being old-fashioned though :p [13:28] knome: not at all sure how we can fix that - kind of screws up the reporting for us [13:29] Category: Accessability, Core, Legacy, utility OR Filename: exo-file-manager.desktop, exo-terminalemulator.desktop, xfce4-about.desktop, xfce4-run.desktop [13:30] from /etc/xdg/menus/xfce-applications.menu [13:31] well - I guess that will all need documenting then [14:38] elfy, yeah, maybe talk with balloons? i'm not able to be around much today [16:07] knome: ack [17:11] elfy, with vbox 'mouse integration' on would one be able to have the mouse pointer dragged to another workspace? [17:13] elfy, can't drag pointer or window to another workspace on my 14.04 vm [17:14] elfy, the vim has 'mouse integration' enabled with guest additions eh [17:18] i've noticed that there is no indicator of active virtual desktop on our new panel layout [17:23] GridCube, no switcher by default it seems [17:25] workspace switcher can be added of course [17:26] yes, but users who know nothing of virtual desktops will be baffled because their active windows will dissapear if the accidentally use the scroll wheel on the desktop, a thing that happens easily if you use a touchpad [17:27] :) we just need to add the switcher, or get rid of the extra desktop [17:27] I agree -- file a bug for ubiquity as the install window seems to disappear. [17:28] by inadvertent mouse wheel activation [17:28] but thats not a bug on ubiquity schproodle [17:29] no, rather about how ubiquity is working xubuntu install [17:29] no, its just a feature that is currently missing a visual aid [17:30] that is what I suggested in the report or alternatively no other workspace, just one [17:31] as you appeared to imply :) if I read that correctly [17:32] schproodle: that's entirely possible down to it being in a virtual machine - especially at the moment [17:32] GridCube: that needs to be brought up in a meeting then [17:33] elfy, ok [17:33] elfy, k, can you bring it as i most probably wont be at any meeting thats held at the current hours [17:33] if it fails in a hardware scenario then fail the testcase [17:33] GridCube: add it to the meeting page [17:34] ok [17:34] elfy, should i open a bug report for it? [17:34] *shrug* [17:35] probably better to do a quick spec as to why there should be one [17:35] ok [17:35] it's not a bug as such - more a difference of opinion :) [17:37] Bug 1282719 [17:37] bug 1282719 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "install window is not 'sticky'; scroll wheel makes it 'disappear'" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1282719 [17:39] that again isn't a bug - but opinion [17:40] my opinion is that it would appear to interfere with an installation and add confusion to the process. [17:41] and my opinion is that people should learn that the operating system they are using - uses the mouse wheel to change desktops [17:41] just that GridCube recorded a similar concern here [17:44] knome: ok - sussed that - I'll do 2 new testcases then we need to use those for LTS or vice versa, then I'll spend some time editing results now so we have real numbers [17:45] schproodle: I don't have anything to do with what gets put on the panel - nor what is seeded - I am just one of a bunch on -team [17:46] I don't think it's an issue - but I don't care either what gets put on a default panel much as mine is never a default panel [17:46] just chatting about it with GridCube eh. :) Thanks for taking an interest. [17:47] :) [17:56] elfy, knome added a new and emerging item to the meeting wiki [17:57] i added [17:58] thanks GridCube [19:01] GridCube, do you realize that there was actually a lot of time to give feedback on the proposal? [19:01] GridCube, and that you approved it yourself in the meeting? [19:01] GridCube, and now you want to revert the decision? [19:02] no, i dont want revert the destion [19:03] GridCube, yes, it is what you are actually proposing. [19:03] GridCube, the workspace switcher not being in the proposal, and you approving it means that you are okay with no workspace switcher [19:03] GridCube, now you want to add it back. [19:03] GridCube, how is that not reverting the vote/decision? [19:04] please explain me, because i fail to understand [19:04] well, i did not notice it gone, and now i do [19:05] referring to our last discussion, is this the result we get when the experts show the team something? [19:05] they are too lazy or too uninterested to really try something out [19:05] and then they do a decision [19:06] and after that, come back telling "no, that's not what i want"? [19:09] knome, i always though that the workspace switcher was part of the indicators [19:09] this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/Whiskermenu [19:09] shows that indicators will still be present [19:09] so i never though they would get removed [19:09] for what reason did you think the workspace is part of the indicators? [19:09] i might be an ignorant then [19:09] it is not an indicator applet [19:09] because its in the same area [19:09] it is a separate applet [19:10] also, why didn't you ask, but just thought? [19:10] well its a different applet, not i know that [19:10] because i did not though of that, because i always remove it because i dont use multiple virtual desktops so i dont have it present [19:10] regardless of whether people should or shouldn't have done something - we're now not giving anyone any indication of what's going on - anywhere - that said I don't care [19:11] knome, also im not attacking the panel in no way, im just saying that i, and maybe others, overlooked this [19:11] GridCube, what does the overlooking tell about? [19:11] elfy, i'm not sure i follow your comment.. [19:11] that people are tired imo [19:12] tired of what? [19:12] knome, that not everyone is on the same page on everything ever [19:12] just tired tired knome :) [19:12] people miss things [19:12] people are people [19:13] GridCube, so, are you saying that when the team proposes, they should specifically mention every little detail they changed? [19:13] if it's something that is so interesting/important, maybe it shouldn't have slipped under everybody's sight. [19:13] knome, why are you attacking me? [19:14] if its not then it will be disregarded on the meeting [19:14] GridCube, i'm not attacking you. i'm just trying to make you see how this looks from my point of view [19:14] I sincerely don't like the way you are pushing me. I'm just trying to say something i've not seen being said before. [19:14] GridCube, it's not the first time you are noticing something has changed and jumped on the team for changing things [19:15] knome, i have never had the intention to attack anyone [19:15] GridCube, i'm also sharing the frustration with ochosi [19:15] he did the proposal months ago [19:15] nobody looked at it [19:15] then when it was proposed in the meeting, everybody agreed on it [19:16] and after that, people have several times came back and said "this change is wrong" [19:16] even if they participated in the meeting and approved the changes [19:16] can you even consider how that feels for ochosi? [19:17] yes, I see what you mean knome [19:17] i agree that this might have escalated too quickly and too far, but seriously, the team and others had months to give feedback [19:17] then it was officially approved [19:17] and only after that we get the feedback and "oh this is not good" [19:18] and please don't say i'm attacking you [19:18] we should explain at least why it is gone, in the FAQ for 14.04 [19:18] i'm just pointing out that this isn't the way we are supposed to work [19:18] brainwash, is it a FAQ? [19:19] it will be :) [19:19] knome, it will be [19:19] GridCube, how do you know? [19:19] you said you don't use it [19:19] how can we predict anything? [19:20] it's sad that this is brought up now, and not before [19:20] i can understand the rationale [19:20] but i can't agree with the way and time it's brought up [19:21] isnt the time for testing the time to see what mistakes we all made? [19:21] nothing wrong with giving feedback after testing it [19:21] :/ [19:21] brainwash, except that there was months to see the proposal, and one could expect people to test something before they vote on it? [19:22] knome, i told you, i saw the proposal and saw nothing wrong with it because i overlooked the switcher [19:22] GridCube, i understand that. [19:22] i sincerely though it was part of the indicators pack [19:22] sure. [19:23] next time, please ask if you are unsure [19:23] i was not unsure [19:23] i did not know it was to be deleted [19:23] it's quite easy to overlook it, because many people consider the workspace switcher to be essential [19:23] i've changed the meeting item to a more neutral tone one "discuss..." from "needs to be added" [19:23] ok [19:23] brainwash, then if many people consider it essential, and it wasn't in the proposal, why didn't anybody say anything? [19:24] because we never though it was to be removed? [19:24] I did, but I'm not part of the team [19:24] nevermid, I have to go [19:24] good day to all and sorry for always being a bother [19:24] wait, you're removing the workspace switcher? [19:25] and I'm just concerned that we don't inform the users about why we removed the switcher [19:25] ali1234, proposed since months. [19:25] well, i don't really care about the default [19:25] as long as i can still install it [19:25] neither do I [19:25] probably better off without it for most people, tbh [19:25] well, the community is here to care about the default... [19:26] and i'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed [19:26] but there's something wrong with this way to make decisions... [19:26] where do these proposals and discussion take place? [19:26] vote and approve first, then go "oops!" [19:26] cos i don't remember it [19:26] the proposal and voting happened in meetings [19:26] ali1234, it was discussed and voted in a meeting, and has been available in the wiki for a long time [19:26] the proposal was put up on the wiki page [19:26] and there was a blueprint referring to it [19:27] how long are we talking? weeks? months? [19:27] not explicitly advertised every week, but it was there, and it was discoverable [19:27] it was up months. [19:27] remember i've only been here like 3 months [19:27] and in the meeting, people were specifically pointed to that page [19:27] and told to review it [19:28] ali1234: hah, now that indicators actually provide icon names instead of pixbufs hardcoded to 22px, the skype icon ends up in xfce4-indicator-plugin too large and is hence cut off :} [19:28] skype isn't an indicator tho [19:28] if any feature we proposed dropping was essential, why didn't *anybody* in the meeting notice it? [19:28] it's a tray icon [19:28] i dunno. was i at the meeting? [19:28] ali1234: nope, it's an indicator if you install the right package (sni-qt i think it is) [19:29] ochosi: cool, i didn't know that [19:29] the skype icon actually gets cut off when it's a tray icon also [19:29] ali1234: see how it's not scaled down anymore (which it used to as an indicator): http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-2014-03-05-202925.php [19:29] but that's pretty standard with tray icons [19:29] will ping trevinho about that [19:30] hmm yeah that is quite a bit worse [19:30] just to see what is going on [19:30] but i guess it's actually the xfce4-indicator-plugin not caring about sizes anymore, because it used to be hardcoded to 22px [19:30] it's probably some bug with the plugin [19:30] well, the code for scaling icons was remove [19:30] d [19:30] knome: http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2014/xubuntu-devel.2014-02-13-19.01.log.html#l-128 [19:30] because until recently, it caused more problems than it helped (fuzzy icons in all sizes etc) [19:30] :) [19:31] brainwash: ah yeah i remember that [19:31] brainwash, http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2014/xubuntu-devel.2014-02-13-19.01.log.html#l-190 [19:31] i assumed when dropping the bottom panel, all stuff actually on it would get moved to the top :) [19:32] heh, that's crazy though [19:32] all the launchers [19:32] so yeah, I did not bother to ask again about it, because it was already too late back then [19:32] well i assume the window list will be on the top panel? [19:32] ali1234, assumed because...? [19:32] brainwash, i'm sorry, that was a bit emotional response [19:33] knome: assumed because the bottom panel contains the task list and the desktop would be useless without it? [19:33] ali1234: no, not true [19:33] the bottom panel only contained launchers [19:33] ali1234, the top panel was specifically said to include that though [19:33] right, that's true [19:34] (launchers and workspace switcher...) [19:34] the task-list has been in the top panel for ages [19:34] i assume? [19:34] yeah, just saying [19:35] is there a proposal on which indicators to ship yet? [19:36] yup, it's also noted on the wiki-page [19:36] which wiki page? [19:36] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/Whiskermenu [19:37] that page seems badly named :/ [19:38] yeah, well initially it was considered that the panel layout would stand and fall with the inclusion of whiskermenu [19:38] so i kept using it, since ppl already knew it was there [19:39] i don't think we should ship with indicators explicitly hidden in the config [19:39] well the appmenu simply doesnt work [19:39] hmm good point [19:39] does hiding it actually make it not crash though? [19:39] (i also put it there out of tradition, as indicator-plugin always shipped with that one blacklisted) [19:40] yup [19:40] never crashed here, anyway [19:40] ok fair enough, +1 on that [19:40] can't say it can't happen [19:41] that all seems reasonable [19:41] thanks, it's not like i didn't take time to think about these things [19:41] and i also tried to discuss them with ppl [19:41] datetime has the config panel issues, printers is going away [19:42] but it's hard to get ppl to test things ahead of time [19:42] i don't think there's any others really except stuff like cpufreq and china-weather etc [19:42] oh and session, which also has issues [19:43] yeah, session has too many issues [19:43] would need many patches [19:43] i'm not really convinced about the bold clock - i tend to think everything should use exactly the same font unless it is really important [19:43] eevening ochosi [19:44] hi elfy [19:44] but i'll probably end up using datetime anyway cos i prefer it's calendar [19:44] datetime has terrible recommends [19:44] yes it does and i wouldn't suggest shipping it [19:44] and a few depends that i personally dont like for a calendar-popup [19:44] ochosi: So does -power [19:44] it also doesn't work properly unless you hack the .desktop file [19:46] Unit193: which ones do you mean? [19:46] and yeah, i already read that you're against -power [19:46] Yes you did, and responded, I don't agree. :P [19:47] so, which ones are you referring to then [19:47] unity control, gnome control, etc, etc. [19:47] that's a recommend [19:47] I know, < ochosi> datetime has terrible recommends [19:47] and doesn't even effect us because it has " | xfce4-power-manager" [19:47] so that really doesn't count [19:48] datetime doesn't have " | thunderbird" afaik [19:48] When I tried to install, I had to use --no-install-recommends [19:48] Not been uploaded with xfpm yet, then? [19:48] well you go and check [19:49] Anywho, it tried to pull those in. [19:49] datetime has the added fun that it depends on unity-control-center and then doesn't even work because the unity-control-center applet is OnlyShowIn=Unity [19:50] hehe, exactly [19:53] it should be possible to make it show up in xfce-settings though, with the right .desktop magic. after all, nvidia-settings can do it [20:01] so, with a more or less brief discussion with ochosi, we're proposing the following in tomorrow's meeting: [20:02] re: the workspaces: drop the scroll-to-changed-workspace feature instead of adding the applet back to panel [20:03] re: the action buttons missing: change the logout icon in whiskermenu to be a generic "shutdown" icon to represent the action that many/most people use from that dialog better [20:03] that should be turned off anyway, it's horrible [20:03] as long as I can tunr it back on [20:04] rationale: we think these changes represent the spririt of the originally proposed panel layout the best [20:04] elfy, sure, if you want. [20:04] what about turning off those couple of things requested on the xfce mailing list? [20:04] when have we hardcoded any settings? [20:04] window shade and something else? [20:04] yeah, i don't mind turning off shading [20:04] another discussion, take it up with ochosi [20:05] for the record, ok for me as well [20:05] "save session" - that was the other [20:05] guess we could also talk about changing window transparency with alt+scroll [20:06] that no longer works [20:06] okay [20:06] then let's not discuss it [20:06] alt+scroll zooms in now [20:06] unless somebody wants to reintroduce it [20:06] (if compositor is enabled, same goes for transparency though) [20:06] so zoom+transparency on alt+scroll? [20:07] yes but zooming gets the event first so the transparency change doesn't happen [20:07] okay [20:07] i didn't even know the transparency thing existed [20:07] do you happen to know how to turn *both* features off? [20:07] yeah, turn off compositing [20:07] ...without turning off compositing [20:07] you can't [20:08] even with an xfconfig key? [20:08] transparency change is also bound to horizontal scrolling, but most people don't have that [20:08] well you could make your alt key not be alt, but that would break quite a lot of other stuff... [20:09] sounds like a bug to me, deceived as a feature :) [20:09] there definitely should be a way to disable both/either of those features [20:09] zooming is bound to scroll + whatever key you set for easymove/resize [20:09] yes, i agree, patches welcome [20:09] the key should also be independently configurable [20:09] well you know i'm not a programmer [20:09] i can file a bug (if not before, after the T cycle) [20:09] i do now :) [20:12] yep [20:13] i'll see when i have the time and motivation to file that bug [20:13] but it does seem like a bit meh, considering much more is configurable in xfce [20:13] it doesn't necessarily have to be in a GUI, but some key for it could be nice [20:13] i didn't know how to make a configuration option [20:16] not blaming you [20:16] besides, my original problem was with the transparency stuff anyway [20:16] so it existed before your patch... [20:18] off for now [20:18] see you all later [20:37] Unit193: https://code.launchpad.net/~ochosi/indicator-power/recommend-xfce4-powermanager/+merge/207018 [20:37] approved but not yet merged [20:37] so anyway, i'm sure this will go into the final release