/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/03/06/#ubuntu-desktop.txt

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pittiGood morning06:39
mlankhorstHello, world!\n08:29
Laneymorning09:03
seb128good morning desktopers09:04
seb128Laney, hey, how are you on this sunny thursday?09:04
Laneythe inverse weather theory holds true09:05
Laneyit is super grey here09:05
seb128sorry for you09:05
Laneyoh well09:05
Laneythey set a new series of climbs at my grade at the centre yesterday so I had a great session09:06
Laneyso I'm excellent thanks!09:06
Laneyhow are you?09:06
seb128nice!09:06
* larsu waves to Laney 09:06
seb128I'm good, had a good night of sleep and nice to have sun out there today09:07
MacSlowseb128, will you be able to beat 18 °C this weekend? :)09:12
seb128MacSlow, they forecast 16°C I think ;-)09:13
MacSlowseb128, we're promised 18 °C here on Sunday ... I can hear my bike screaming already ;)09:13
Laneyhm, I have a "Calendar authentication request" on l ogin09:20
Laneyfor my canonical gapps account09:20
seb128weird09:20
mlankhorstit was freezing tonight :(09:24
Laneyah, u-s-s and telephony got released09:28
Laneyall your calls are broken by me09:28
seb128lol09:29
seb128who pressed the button?09:29
Laneylooks like robru09:30
seb128good09:30
seb128so you can blame him if it turns out to be buggy :p09:30
Laneybfiller tested it and said it worked09:30
seb128good09:30
* Laney is fully covered ;-)09:30
Laneyalright, let's look at this package from gunnar09:31
=== jhernand1z is now known as jhernandez
larsuis bash completion broken for anyone else?09:59
seb128larsu, somebody mentioned ~/ resolution being buggy yesterday I think10:02
ochosihey everyone10:02
seb128wfm10:02
seb128well,  on local path, didn't try with ~/10:02
seb128larsu, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bash-completion/+bug/128803110:03
ubot2`Launchpad bug 1288031 in bash-completion (Ubuntu) "Tab expansion only auto-completes directory names" [Undecided,Confirmed]10:03
larsuseb128: same for me10:03
larsualso, when I <tab> on an empty prompt, I get "bash: words: bad array subscript"10:04
larsuthanks for pointing me to the bug10:04
seb128yw10:04
ochosiif any of you indicator-devs get a chance to merge this (https://code.launchpad.net/~ochosi/indicator-power/recommend-xfce4-powermanager/+merge/207018) that'd be great! (currently it pulls in a lot of recommends in in xubuntu :))10:04
seb128ochosi, I can do a landing with that10:05
seb128let me check if we have other indicator-power work queued10:05
ochosiyeah, there's one more accepted MR10:06
ochosithanks a bunch seb128 !10:06
seb128yw!10:06
seb128the "startup-cleanup" branches are stacked in a landing ask including all the indicators10:06
ochosiah yeah10:06
seb128larsu, do you want to review https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bash-completion/+bug/1288031?10:06
ubot2`Launchpad bug 1288031 in bash-completion (Ubuntu) "Tab expansion only auto-completes directory names" [Undecided,Confirmed]10:06
seb128shrug10:06
ochosiupstart for all indicators10:06
seb128yeah10:07
seb128larsu, https://code.launchpad.net/~charlesk/indicator-power/lp-1234458/+merge/209371 I meant10:07
seb128larsu, I'm going to do an indicator-power landing for the xubuntu recommends thing, if that one is good I can include it as well10:07
seb128larsu, shrug, that's a bigger diff that I though, let's keep that for next round10:07
ochosifwiw, i wonder whether you're seeing this too in unity with Trevinho's latest change to libindicator (use GIcon and icon-name over pixbuf hardcoded to 22px): http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-2014-03-06-110807.php10:08
seb128ochosi, "this"?10:08
ochosicould be that it's just our plugin not handling icon-sizes correctly or a problem in indicator-application10:08
ochosiwell, cut off icons, because they're provided in a too-large-size10:09
seb128I don't know how it looked like before for you10:09
ochosithe icons for skype and spotify were scaled down to be the same as the others (power, message and sound)10:09
seb128ochosi, http://people.canonical.com/~seb128/indicator/newunity.png10:09
seb128that's how it looks like here (that one is scaled up)10:09
seb128ochosi, http://people.canonical.com/~seb128/indicator/new.png10:10
seb128is scaling=110:10
ochosiright, but those aren't fugly proprietary apps like skype or spotify over which we have no control :)10:10
ochosithe unity indicators still work fine10:10
seb128did you try those apps in unity?10:10
ochosinot yet, but i guess i'm going to do that very soon10:11
ochosiunless someone here uses any of them10:11
ochosi(my suspicion is that this only affects xubuntu anyhow)10:11
seb128ochosi, http://people.canonical.com/~seb128/unityicons.png10:12
seb128skype included10:12
ochosihmm, looks nice :)10:12
ochosiok, thanks!10:12
seb128yw!10:12
ochosiso i'll have to sort it out in xfce4-indicator-plugin then :)10:13
larsuseb128: what's that esoteric "Fr" language that you're using?10:13
ochosihuhu10:13
seb128larsu, I can teach you if you want!10:13
larsuochosi: Trevinho might be able to help you out with the specifics of the changes10:13
larsubut I think his patch shouldn't affect the appindicator icons at all...10:13
larsuseb128: je n'est sais pas10:13
ochosiyeah, i thought so too10:14
ochosije ne sais plus rien10:14
seb128ochosi, larsu: he did http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~3v1n0/unity/hidpi-better-scaling/revision/3784 ... not sure if that would help there?10:14
ochosiah yeah, thanks10:15
seb128I think we had blurry icons for e.g indicator-power before that commit10:15
mlankhorstyay ppc64el porter :D10:15
ochosithat looks like it's it, but i presumed that stuff like skype would use the pixbuf fallback anyway10:15
ochosibut maybe i was wrong about that10:15
ochosilarsu: i guess you don't have time for some last-minute fun with me, adding support for symbolic icons to all indicators? :)10:16
larsuwhy is he reading the file name in the pixbuf case?!10:16
* Laney ports mlankhorst to powerpcspe10:16
larsuochosi: oh well, please talk to him about it10:16
larsuochosi: you mean as opposed to -panel?10:16
ochosiyup10:16
ochosiwell, first try -symbolic, then -panel, then...10:16
ochosithen you could get rid of ubuntu-mono-dark10:17
larsuI'll accept patches if they also fix the icon theme10:17
larsuno...10:17
larsuthere are some icons with color in there10:17
ochosioh10:17
larsu(or at least there used to be)10:17
* ochosi goes to look10:17
larsupower I think?10:17
larsuwhich is certainly not monochrome10:18
ochosiyeah, but those are the same color in -dark and light10:18
ochosisame with audio-volume-muted-blocking-panel10:18
ochosionly three colors there, and symbolic icons even support those variants afaik (errors or warnings can be colored by the theme)10:19
ochosianyway, i understand that this isn't your top priority10:20
ochosibut if you need help on the icon side, i can help with that10:20
larsuright10:20
larsuI'd love to see that done (or do it myself)10:20
larsulet's see if I can find some time10:20
ochosifeel free to ping me about it if you do10:21
larsuyou can bet I will ;)10:21
larsuthanks!10:21
ochosihehe, no problem10:21
ochosior is tiheum already working on symbolic icons for the panel?10:22
seb128not that I know10:22
larsuI don't know either10:22
* mlankhorst ports Laney to bigendian10:23
mlankhorstenaL\0\0\0y10:23
larsulol10:24
seb128larsu, let me know when you have a theme patch for the menu, I've the new GTK built and it creates no issue that I can see, now I want to test with the theme to confirm it fixes the issue before uploading10:26
larsuseb128: people keep pinging me!10:26
larsuseb128: I have it in *some* terminal in the background10:26
seb128larsu, how dare they?!10:27
* larsu alt-tabs10:27
larsu:)10:27
seb128larsu, ping10:27
seb128:p10:27
larsuARGH10:27
tiheumochosi: seb128: Hi, we don't have symbolic icons for the desktop panel atm. Suru indicator icons for the mobile are quite similar to symbolic icons (SVG, monochromatic, can be colorized) but the size is not the same so they will look blurry on the desktop. And names differ as well. What do you want to do exactly?10:30
larsuseb128: https://code.launchpad.net/~larsu/ubuntu-themes/add-menu-margin/+merge/20963210:31
ochositiheum: well to be concrete, the indicators in the desktop could support symbolic icons, so there'd not be a need anymore to have a ubuntu-mono-dark and -light icon theme10:32
ochositiheum: that would also be more convenient for users when switching themes i guess...10:32
ochositiheum: no idea what design plans you have for the desktop, but in case you want the status icons to be the same in style, it would be good to know that before starting to port those >800 icons to symbolic ones :)10:33
tiheumochosi: >800?10:34
ochositiheum: the implementation of indicator-keyboard accounts for >500 icons... (one for each layout variant)10:34
tiheumochosi: system indicators (wifi, battery, keyboard, etc) can support symbolic icons, but what about app indicators (like weather)?10:36
larsuindicator-keyboard creating that many icons is crazy10:36
larsuwhy did we do this again?10:36
ochositiheum: why could those not be patched?10:37
ochosiat least those that are part of ubuntu by default or that are installable could be patched imo10:38
seb128larsu, you would generate the pixmaps are runtime at every login instead?10:38
seb128larsu, I'm not even sure how we can generate those pixmaps10:38
ochosiwhy does it have to be pixmaps?10:38
ochosii mean this could *easily* be drawn with cairo in the indicator10:38
ochosiit's such a simplistic shape, with just a little bit of font on it10:39
seb128how do you know what to draw?10:39
tiheumI am agree: so many icons make a transition to a newer theme very difficult10:39
seb128ochosi, larsu, tiheum: http://iloveubuntu.net/pictures_me/indicator%20keyboard%20new%20mouse%20wheel%20ubuntu%2014.04.png10:39
larsuseb128: I hope attente didn't sit down and draw all of these icons ...10:39
ochosiyeah, or at least very annoying :)10:39
larsuso there has to be a way of generating them10:39
seb128right10:39
seb128it doesn't mean it's practical to do it at runtime10:39
larsuand we can just do that at runtime, nobody has all layouts10:40
seb128I think he generated them from ibus or something10:40
larsuso in practice, we only need to do a handful of them10:40
seb128well, if you have the material to generate them10:40
larsuoh we don't have that?10:40
seb128not sure it's installed10:40
* larsu remembers talking to attente about this before, but forgot his conclusion10:40
larsuI'm sure he has a good reason for it10:40
seb128but they are not all squares with text in it10:41
ochosiseb128: frankly that icon isn't even in ubuntu-mono-dark, so no idea where it comes from...10:41
seb128e.g that screenshot the pinyin one10:41
larsuthat icon is very blue10:41
seb128ochosi, yeah, me neither10:41
seb128but it's not that simple10:41
ochosiyeah, but how many of those are there?10:41
seb128we should stop speculating and talk to attente when he's up10:41
ochosiagreed :)10:41
ochosiok, so ignoring those kb-icons (they could be scripted to become symbolic i guess, with inkscape), where does that leave us at the symbolic-icons discussion10:43
ochosi(btw it's possible that he drew the icons exactly because you have two different icon themes and the plugin wouldn't know which color to supply)10:44
ochosi(a problem that'd be solved with symbolic icons)10:45
ochositiheum: so you're not planning to change the style of the panel icons on desktop to match those of phone?10:49
tiheumochosi: I don't think so. The new desktop icon theme is planned for 14.10 and we don't have much time to design all the symbolic indicators before the UI freeze.10:57
tiheumochosi: however, I'll talk with my manager about that to take a decision.11:00
ochositiheum: ok, great! let me know how it goes11:00
tiheumochosi: sure11:00
ochosity11:00
seb128didrocks, is your release magic taking bug numbers for launchpad mps or from commits (--fixes lp:...) or from both?11:23
seb128Laney, ^11:23
seb128from launchpad*11:23
LaneyI'm quite sure it looks at the related bugs on the MP11:25
Laneyhave done that before11:25
seb128cool, I didn't know11:26
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didrocksseb128: both11:26
seb128I usually uncommit/commit with --fixes and push over11:26
seb128didrocks, great, thanks ;-)11:26
seb128Laney, approved11:26
didrocksnormally, can have a bug :p11:27
seb128let's see how it works11:27
seb128if it doesn't work Laney gets to close the bug by hand :p11:27
Laneyheh11:27
Laneybranch_merge_proposal.getRelatedBugTasks()11:28
didrocks            for bug in mp.getRelatedBugTasks():11:29
didrocksso from Mp, it's sure11:29
didrocksand normally, I scan the commit message for any "bug blablabla" message11:29
=== MacSlow is now known as MacSlow|lunch
seb128happyaron, are you around this week?12:30
seb128ochosi, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/trusty/+source/indicator-power/12.10.6+14.04.20140306-0ubuntu112:32
=== smb` is now known as smb
ochosithanks a bunch, seb128 !12:56
seb128yw!12:56
happyaronseb128: I'm spending most of my time with NUDT and Sogou, :)13:00
seb128happyaron, hey13:01
seb128happyaron, could you have a look to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ibus-anthy/+bug/1279845 anyway? it shouldn't be too much work to review, it has been waiting in the sponsoring queue for a while13:02
ubot2`Launchpad bug 1279845 in ibus-anthy (Ubuntu) "ibus-anthy sets to jp keyboard layout forcibly." [Undecided,New]13:02
happyaronseb128: sure13:02
seb128thanks13:02
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=== alan_g|lunch is now known as alan_g
seb128mterry, hey14:25
mterryseb128, hello!14:26
seb128mterry, we have our weekly settings/indicator hangout meeting in 35 min, want to join?14:26
seb128mterry, ted, larsu, Laney are going to be there, we though it would be nice to have a discussion about a-s/lock screen settings sharing14:27
seb128we can do it another time/after the meeting as well14:27
seb128but that should be more effective that have several discussions over bugs and merge requests for those changes14:27
seb128tedg, ^ btw14:27
tedgSounds good14:27
seb128mterry, tedg: do you guys have some notes/document discussing why we ended up opting by doing locking using the greeter rather than doing it in session?14:29
seb128mterry, stop timeouting!14:38
seb128mterry, did you get what I was saying before?14:39
mterryseb128, I said "sure" last I saw14:39
seb128mterry, I didn't receive that, what did you get on your side before writing that?14:39
seb128mterry, copied in query what I was writing, in case you missed a bit14:40
seb128mterry, oh, also14:40
seb128mterry, tedg: do you guys have some notes/document discussing why we ended up opting by doing locking using the greeter rather than doing it in session?14:40
mterryseb128, ?  I thought using the greeter was a long standing desire even on desktop for locking14:42
xnoxyes!14:45
seb128mterry, yeah, the idea sounds appealing in principle, but in practice we hit all those issues, which is why it never happened, which makes us wonder if that's the right call14:45
xnoxwe had it at one point, and it was reverted =/14:45
seb128like having access to the user session status/services (music playing, play/pause)14:45
mterryseb128, yeah.  We're close to solving these issues though14:49
seb128by piling up hacks :p14:49
seb128"hacks"14:49
mterryseb128, yes and no.  Only half-hacks.  But it is nice to be able to use same code/experience for greeter and lock14:55
seb128right, both approach have pros and cons14:56
seb128Laney, tedg, larsu, charles, mpt, attente: settings-indicator meeting in a few minutes, get ready. We also want to discuss the sharing in settings between session and greeter during the meeting, maybe after the roundtable/other topics (so we don't need to keep those who don't want to stay for that discussion)14:57
seb128mterry, feel free to join from the start or I can ping you when we are done with the first part of the meeting14:57
Laneywhip cracking14:57
* seb128 gets something to drink and comes back for the meeting14:57
tedgseb128, Might be a couple seconds late, finishing up another meeting.14:59
mterryseb128, I'm fine with being there from start.   Is this IRC or hangout?15:01
seb128mterry, hangout, queried you the url15:01
slowconhey guys15:16
slowconi just got an ubuntu server and installed ubuntu desktop on it. im trying to setup remote connections to the server from MAC and WINDOWS. currently trying to setup the windows connection. I set Remote Desktop in Ubuntu to active.15:16
slowconwhen i go to Network > Connection Info, I get an error of "No valid active connections found"15:16
slowconhere is what the desktop looks like http://snag.gy/EMLyh.jpg15:17
slowconyou can see there are two wired connections, but they are not listed under Wired in the Network Connections dialog box15:18
ali1234"device not managed" is your clue15:20
ali1234that means network manager is ignoring it15:21
slowconahhhh15:21
slowcongoing to try this now ali123415:23
slowconhttp://askubuntu.com/questions/71159/network-manager-says-device-not-managed15:23
ali1234i suspect this might be a customization done by your server provider15:23
ali1234in any case there is probably a reason for it15:24
slowconali1234: i think so also. i went to the NetworkManager.conf15:24
slowconand there are no lines to edit15:24
=== alan_g is now known as alan_g|tea
dobeyTrevinho: PLEASE fix this compiz resizing bug. i'll bribe you with rum, even. :)15:33
=== alan_g|tea is now known as alan_g
seb128dobey, if you bribe with rum maybe you can get kenvandine to fix it :p15:47
* kenvandine hides15:47
dobeyheh15:47
kenvandinerum isn't enough to touch compiz15:47
dobeykenvandine: you just have to drink the rum first15:47
kenvandineit would have to be quite a bit... last time i patched compiz i had fixes for weeks after15:48
desrtso at the very least, i would expect that we can share non-persistent information between the login screen and the user's session via putting files in XDG_RUNTIME_DIR15:49
desrtthis is already better than using accountsservice for volatile information15:49
desrtwe could also put a socket here for communication15:49
desrtpossibly via dbus or another protocol15:49
desrt(via a small process in the user's session or unity-settings-daemon plugin)15:50
seb128ted, mterry, ^ thoughs on that?15:50
desrtwe could also get core lightdm onto the user's session bus to relay the information15:50
desrtthat way if someone attacks the greeter session, they still don't have access to the user's bus15:50
desrt(and neatly sidesteps the question of how to get a non-privileged process into someone else's session)15:50
desrtbut really, above all else: please anything but accountsservice15:51
desrtthis is for storing information when the user is not logged in because their homedir is inaccessible to us15:51
desrtthat's it15:51
slowconali1234 - ok i got the network to be available on desktop15:52
desrthonestly, the idea of lightdm getting on the user's session bus while it is pulling up the session is somewhat attractive anyway15:52
seb128I sort of like that as well15:52
desrtmight want to be there for reasons like inhibit lockscreen, etc.15:52
=== Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-afk
seb128mterry, what do you think about that?15:53
cyphermoxali1234: slowcon: remove the entries from /etc/network/interfaces, if eth0 is set there.15:55
cyphermoxmanaged=true might work but it's not supported.15:55
desrtcould also do a hybrid approach where lightdm monitors a subdirectory in XDG_RUNTIME_DIR for changes and tells the greeter about it (so the greeter doesn't have direct access to the user's xdg dir)15:55
desrtand then the session needs only to touch files here (which is tmpfs, so extremely cheap)15:55
desrtthis is vaguely how logind already works...15:56
seb128seems reasonable as well15:56
desrtthis keeps the amount of code running in privileged context (lightdm core) extremely small15:56
* seb128 wonders if we should put a blueprint for that and having a vUDS discussion ;-)15:56
desrtand it gives it almost a non-existent attack surface from the user session (and very small from the greeter, even)15:56
seb128desrt, shame you were not able to join that hangout we just had :/15:57
kenvandineseb128, lets discuss default media player again15:57
* kenvandine ducks15:57
Laneysrsly15:57
Laneywhat is there to discuss15:57
mterryseb128, sorry, was in showre15:57
seb128kenvandine, no rum for you!15:57
Laneyeveryone knows banshee is the obvious choice, it'd just be too embarrassing to go back again15:57
kenvandinei want banshee!15:57
desrti'd consider either of these approches to be nice15:57
Laney:-)15:57
kenvandine:-D15:58
desrti prefer the lightdm-on-user's-bus approach, but i don't like the idea of such a large chunk of privilged code having such exposure to the user's session15:58
kenvandineUDS isn't the same with the banshee and chromium discussions15:58
LaneyI like an approach that means you don't have to modify too much software to spit out its settings in some other place15:58
mterryseb128, desrt: we just added a very convenient support for shared user-data dirs between greeter / users15:59
seb128desrt, I like both (lightm talking to the user bus, and the xdg_runtime_dir one), first seems more powerful with the  security downside that go with it, the second one seems safe and enough15:59
desrtmterry: on tmpfs, per chance?15:59
desrtseb128: exactly my thoughts.16:00
slowconhey guys, im trying to find a way to be able to access my ubuntu server from a windows and mac enviornment. would it be easier to setup something where ubuntu desktop can be accessed from a webdomain?16:00
mterryseb128, desrt: no, not on tmpfs because it was created explicitly to support persistent files.  /var/lib/lightdm-data/$USER16:00
desrtmterry: sounds like a bit of an overlap with accountsservice16:00
mterryseb128, desrt: but the directories are owned by whichever user is configured as the greeter user and the individual user, 077016:00
mterrydesrt, this was designed for large files (like camera photos, etc)16:00
desrtright16:00
desrtmterry: but i'm suggesting that maybe we could stop using the accountsservice stuff entirely if this covers the same usecase16:00
mterryseb128, desrt: anyway, you were talking about needing a writable directory shared between greeter and user.  We have one16:01
desrtmterry: this is going to be frequently-trashed, though16:01
desrt*thrashed16:01
desrtlike... IPC style... probably want a tmpfs16:01
mterrydesrt, eh, AS is fine for what it does (small pieces of data)16:01
desrtmaybe /var/run/lightdm-data/$USER :)16:01
mterry:)16:02
slowconanyone ever use Guacamole?16:02
desrtmterry: i guess the greeter has some special interaction with lightdm core...16:03
desrtpresumably enforced by dbus security mechanisms16:03
desrtvia the system bus16:03
desrtor does it have a p2p connection or something?16:03
mterrydesrt, socket16:03
=== Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha
mterrywith custom protocol16:03
desrtso we could add support to this protocol for16:04
desrt a) read me a file out of user's xdg dir, limited to a specific subdir16:04
desrt b) notify me of any changes there16:04
mterrydesrt, couldn't the user session just throw data into lightdm-data/$USER for that?16:05
desrtif you want to get real fancy you could just ask lightdm to pass an fd to the directory itself into the greeter... and it could inotify it for itself and use openat() to read the file contents16:05
desrtmterry: we're talking about things like current song playing updated via mpris.. including seconds16:05
desrtyou don't want to write and fsync a file to persistent storage once per second16:06
mterrydesrt, well you said "read me a file out of user's xdg dir"16:06
desrtwhereas with tmpfs it's basically just a low-tech kernel-backed IPC mechanism16:06
mterrydesrt, you could put a socket in lightdm-data/$USER16:06
desrtmterry: yes... but this is gross.16:06
mterryit is...?16:06
desrtmterry: precisely because this directory persists16:06
desrtso you'll have stale sockets littered about16:07
mterrynot littered about.  at most.. one per user?16:07
desrtyes16:07
mterrywho does that hurt?  :)16:07
desrtthis is precisely the reason we try to move all sockets into the runtime dir and the same reason that sockets for system services are in /run and not /var/lib16:07
desrtditto pid files16:07
mhall119jasoncwarner: seb128: sil2100: didrocks: there are several client track sessions created for UDS but they aren't scheduled yet, are you guys coordinating who'd going to do that?16:08
seb128mhall119, not that I know16:08
mterrydesrt, I'm just leery of all the seemingly special-purpose protocol required in lightdm for this feature16:08
desrtmterry: don't blame you16:08
mterrydesrt, can the user mount a tmpfs in lightdm-data?  :)  probably not16:09
mhall119jasoncwarner: seb128: sil2100: didrocks: can one of you manage your schedule?  Otherwise I can just place them myself, but I don't know your scheduling needs16:09
seb128mhall119, I can try having a look, things are quite busy though, LTS coming soon, lot of work, etc16:10
desrtmterry: i think either way we will want some support in lightdm for what we are trying to do... and i don't think the shared directory is the right thing to use here16:10
mhall119seb128: I understand, just trying to get this done as soon as possible, since it starts next week16:10
desrtthe support could be very very small -- as much as an API that sends the fd of the shared directory via unix socket to the greeter16:11
seb128mhall119, yeah, I understand, I'm going to try to have a look, timing is just not great16:11
mhall119thanks seb12816:11
desrt(although this would prevent use of sockets, since afaik there is no connectat() equivalent)16:11
mterrydesrt, I don't get why tmpfs is so much better.  It's not reboots that cause stale sockets.  We'd have that problem between user session instances (log out, log in later) just the same.  The socket just needs cleaning on shutdown or something16:12
desrtmterry: the xdg runtime dir is cleaned between sessions16:12
mterrydesrt, really?  interesting.  logind does that?16:12
desrtthat's the point -- its lifespan is limited to the user being logged in and it is guaranteed to be wiped between16:12
desrtyes16:12
mterrycute16:13
desrtwe created this exactly because of these problems16:13
seb128desrt, what if you are logged in from a ssh and log out/in from the graphic session?16:13
Trevinhodobey: ahah, yeah, I know... I've still some higher prios now unfortunately, but it's quite on the top of my list :)16:13
desrtseb128: it persists as long as the user is logged in from anywhere16:13
mterrywell, someone chmod those directories to 711 so that other processes can be passed paths into it16:13
desrtseb128: this is also why we want to move toward viewing the session bus as a user bus, rather16:13
desrtseb128: ie: this will finally solve the problem of someone doing ssh or console logging and typing 'gsettings set...'16:14
desrtit will find dbus via the socket in the user's xdg runtime dir and will talk to the dconf-service already in the user's session16:14
larsubiggest problem ever16:14
seb128larsu, heh, I get annoyed by it every now and then! ;-)16:15
desrt(or socket-based activate dbus and then dbus-activate dconf-service, if just logging in from console only)16:15
desrtlarsu: can't tell if you're being sarcastic :)16:16
LaneyI can :P16:16
desrtbecause really, i do consider this to be a very annoying problem16:16
=== Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-afk
desrtit means that people can't do a lot of things from cron jobs either, for example16:16
dobeyTrevinho: ok. it's starting to drive me crazy16:16
larsudesrt: I was being sarcastic, but only because of your choice of example16:17
larsuclearly having such a bus is awesome16:17
seb128dobey, I guess you can downgrade unity as a workaround...16:17
larsubut not to ssh into my desktop machine and type gsettings set16:17
desrtlarsu: meh... lots of advice on stackoverflow about "i hosed my session and i can't login...." "oh.. just do this gsettings reset command..." "uh... i can't do that outside of my session..."16:17
larsureally?16:18
desrtya16:18
larsuif changing some gsettings keys hoses your session we're doing something wrong16:18
desrti've particularly seen a lot of advice about certain non-viable compiz configs16:18
larsuah. yeah. compiz. I understand.16:18
desrtseems like it's pretty easy to mess up badly with ccsm16:19
mterryseb128, desrt: well, I'm not opposed to some extra protocol for lightdm, but robert_ancell is the real owner there16:19
=== Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha
seb128mterry, desrt: I'm happy to start an email discussion about that, though I lost track of what desrt is suggesting, we went through a bunch of options/iterations in possible solutions16:20
desrtseb128: still two main suggestions... with the devil in the details, as always :)16:20
seb128desrt, still "get lightdm on the user bus" and "have a shared dir used for communication" (where the details being on what sort of ipc in the shared dir)?16:21
seb128where->with16:21
desrtseb128: specifically "have a subdirectory of xdg runtime dir visible to the greeter via a privileged protocol in lightdm"16:22
seb128let me write an email, you can reply with more details, then we can wait on robert_ancell to comment during his day16:22
desrteither via lightdm opening the files and sending the contents (and being responsible for change notification) or through some fd-passing scheme16:22
LaneyI guess we still end up with a lot of stuff being stored in AS for the not-logged-in case16:23
seb128that's fine16:24
desrtya... that's totally reasonable... it needs to be somewhere.16:24
Laneyit's acceptable16:24
desrtkinda sucks that the API doesn't have all of the features that we got used to with gsettings16:24
Laneybut it's not16:24
Laneyyeah that16:25
desrtfwiw, it would be possible to wrap gsettings schemas around this API if we wanted16:25
desrtall you need to do is leave the default value out of the xml file that you install16:26
desrtaccountsservice will throw an exception16:26
desrtand you can query the default value out of the schema (with overrides supported)16:26
desrtwould be an interesting but fairly trivial exercise to write a gsettingsbackend for this16:26
desrtthen you could just do g_settings_new_with_backend()16:26
Laneywhy do you need the exception thing?16:27
desrtthis API can work in two ways16:27
desrtthe first way is that you put a default value in the interface xml file you install16:27
desrtin which case Get is always successful -- and returns the default value, if none is set16:27
desrtthe other way is that you put no default value16:28
desrtand then Get is only successful in the case that someone did a Set before.  if there is no value to return then you get an exception instead16:28
desrtthis is useful because it lets you detect the "there is nothing set" case and handle the process of determining the default value manually16:28
desrteg: via gsettings schema rules16:28
Laneydoesn't seem like it would play so well with non-gsettings uses of the data16:31
desrtnot unless they have some other way to figure out the default value for themselves16:32
Laneyya16:32
desrtbut that's sort of the point, right?16:32
desrtif you want more control then you get more control...16:32
desrtwe certainly don't want to get into a place where we're returning a default value and it's the wrong one16:32
didrocksmhall119: already we'll try, but as seb128 told, we are already maxing out and the timing doesn't help16:33
Laney'you only get the right default if you use this interface via gsettings' seems weird16:37
Laneyit's not that you don't know it, it's just stored in some place that AS can't access16:37
Laneyseb128: will you put this thread on some ML?16:38
desrtLaney: this is pretty much dconf16:38
desrtliterally: 'you only get the right default if you use this interface via gsettings'16:38
desrtin dconf's case you get NULL.  in AS's case you get a dbus error.16:39
desrtsemantically exactly equivalent16:39
seb128Laney, do you feel like ubuntu-devel@ is appropriate?16:39
desrt"no value was set"16:39
=== robru-sick is now known as robru
LaneyAS is an interface in its own right in a way that dconf isn't really16:42
Laneyi dunno, maybe it's not that bad16:42
Laneyit would be a nicer api16:42
desrtLaney: there is definitely more confusion here, i agree16:43
desrtsince we have been telling people "call AS to get this value"16:43
desrtwhereas with dconf we always told from the start "don't use dconf directly"16:43
desrtfunny story about that, of course... dconf-editor was using dconf directly and in cases of overrides had the incorrect default value shown because of it...16:45
desrtso ya... bugs happen16:45
kenvandinethose virtual armhf builders are a real pain... now the ubuntu-system-settings build keeps hanging16:45
kenvandinejust stops logging anything... for hours16:45
kenvandinesigh...16:45
seb128:-(16:46
seb128Laney, you would prefer to have the discussion on ubuntu-devel@?16:46
kenvandinenot sure if this is better than qemu crashes :)16:46
Laneyseb128: sorry, forgot to reply16:46
LaneyI don't mind, I was thinking phone but that might be ok16:46
seb128well, phone works but I'm unsure e.g desrt and robert_ancell are on it16:47
seb128I guess I can Cc them16:47
Laneyyup16:47
seb128let's do that16:47
seb128thanks16:47
LaneyIs there a LIM bug filed for the issue where they're always in the top panel at start? i.e. if you launch a non-maximised application16:56
seb128Laney, not that I know, but I don't follow all compiz bugs16:59
Laneywill file17:00
LaneyI have an update though, so better check that17:00
Laneyargs17:13
Laneywhat's happened? I can't focus windows17:14
Trevinhoseb128: I should probably do it, but I'm quite busy... Can we have a mark on the scale of ucc for the monitor scaling factor?17:16
seb128Trevinho, we already have one?17:16
* Trevinho is not that updated17:17
LaneyI can click buttons and decorations but not focus anything17:17
Trevinhoseb128: mh, no I don't see it at 1.017:17
seb128Laney, sounds like you have a win taking focus somewhere17:20
Trevinhoseb128: oh, I'm blind, it was there :D17:20
seb128Laney, like gome-keyring prompt17:20
seb128Trevinho, ;-)17:20
Laneyprobably, it could be off screen17:20
Trevinhobut it's a recent change, right?17:20
seb128Laney, is it in the launcher?17:20
LaneyI restarted the session now17:20
seb128Trevinho, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity-control-center/14.04.3+14.04.20140225-0ubuntu117:20
seb128Trevinho, 10 days17:21
seb128or 9 rather17:21
seb128Trevinho, which is almost as recent as the feature :p17:21
Trevinhoseb128: ok, my fault to keep my machine not that updated :)17:22
Laneyah, this time I do have a window17:22
LaneyI guess this comes from eds17:23
Laneynot sure why it's not using uoa17:23
renato_Laney, ping17:24
Laneyhi17:24
renato_Laney, I tested your syncevolution package and it did not work with ubuntu online accounts17:25
Laneyerm17:25
seb128Laney, syncevolution?17:25
Laneywhy did mardy tell me it worked?17:25
Laneywhy did mardy tell me that you told him it worked?17:25
seb128Laney, did you install that thing? maybe it's it prompting you :p17:25
Laneymaybe17:25
LaneyHAHA17:25
LaneyI just got a shrinking terminator window17:26
Laneythat was amazing17:26
renato_Laney, did you build that with "--enable-uoa" ?17:26
Laneyyes17:26
LaneyHe told me that you tested the package and it worked17:26
Laneywas that untrue?17:26
LaneyDid you install syncevolution-provider-uoa?17:27
renato_no17:27
renato_let me check that17:27
LaneyActually I can't find where he told me that17:30
Laneydid I make it up?17:30
renato_no I told him that works17:30
renato_now I found the problem17:30
seb128Laney, tedg, desrt, mterry, larsu: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-phone/msg06773.html17:31
renato_I had the file that this package " syncevolution-provider-uoa"  installed on my device from my build17:31
tedgseb128, Okay, I need to run now, but I'll reply after.17:32
renato_stop to work after I flash my device17:32
Laneyrenato_: so it's okay with that?17:32
LaneyYou can add a Depends for it or we can put it in the seed17:32
seb128tedg, thanks17:32
renato_Laney, when the package will land?17:32
LaneyI already uploaded it17:32
renato_great17:33
seb128renato_, it's building, I'm going to binNEW the binaries once ppc/armhf are done17:33
LaneyIt'll wait in the queue for an ar17:33
Laneyseb128 is a great guy!17:33
seb128;-)17:33
renato_I will add "syncevolution-provider-uoa" as dependency into my project17:33
Laneyokey dokey17:34
renato_thanks, and sorry for the confusion17:34
Laneyno worries17:34
LaneyI dunno why I can't find the message where he told me it was ok17:34
Laneyscary17:34
* Laney goes to test webkit17:34
Laneybrave is not test building on arm64 first17:35
kenvandineseb128, i think the uss build hangs in the same place everytime, have you seen that before?17:43
kenvandine2/4 Test #2: tst-arguments .................... Passed 0.07 sec17:43
kenvandine    Start 3: tst-update-manager17:43
kenvandineseems to be that one test hanging...17:43
kenvandinelast time i let it run for 2 hours17:43
seb128kenvandine, no, never17:43
seb128works fine in CI, jenkins, local...17:44
kenvandinejust in qemu of course... so much fun17:44
* kenvandine might just disable the tests for the preview ppa... hate doing that17:44
kenvandinei know tests pass :)17:44
seb128kenvandine, turn off arm in the ppa ;-)17:49
kenvandineit's the most important arch for this preview!17:49
Laneydo it in canonical-arm-dev and copy it over17:49
* kenvandine didn't know about this ppa... 17:50
kenvandinegood idea17:50
Laneyyou need access, ogra can sort that out17:50
kenvandineor i can just disable tests in this PPA for now... we know CI tests pass17:51
kenvandineand hopefully it'll only be for a week or so17:52
Laneymaybe you broke the tests :-)17:53
Laneywebkit'd18:01
Laneyif it works on the arches I didn't test build for (arm64, powerpc) then I'll owe the gods one beer18:01
Laney& ppc64el18:01
seb128hehe18:01
xnoxLaney: canonical-arm-dev, what does that do? looks like red-carpet of A-list developers18:02
Laneyit's a devirt ppa18:02
LaneyI use it for test building hardcore stuff like webkit18:02
rsalvetiyou could also use silos if you want for that18:03
rsalvetiif you're trying to land something18:03
=== alan_g is now known as alan_g|EOW
kenvandinersalveti, not yet, next week18:03
Laneyyeah as a fancy way to get a devirt ppa18:03
Laneybut you have to use the archive versions there18:03
kenvandinersalveti, and  we want to get the gallery as click landed first18:03
Laneyit's easier for me to go for manual uploads18:03
* Laney needs to go give blood now, ttyl18:04
rsalvetiright18:04
=== Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-afk
seb128Laney, good luck18:10
=== Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha
didrocksin the evening?18:18
didrocksthat country really does everything on the wrong side :)18:18
desrttkamppeter: hey... do you have some examples of complex pdf files around?  ones with lots of complicated vectors graphics with lots of curves, etc?18:34
tkamppeterdesrt, I will look, for what do you need them?18:37
desrttkamppeter: performance testing...18:37
desrtactually.. it just occured to me that cairo may have some test data18:38
seb128desrt, http://www.nist.gov/el/nzertf/upload/NZERTF-Architectural-Plans1-June2011.pdf ?18:38
desrtseb128: too simple :p18:38
seb128bah :p18:39
desrtcairo does indeed have some built-in performance tests18:39
tkamppeterdesrt, you should have a nice PDF showing the parking zones in Berlin now, nice to watch (but it is not a video) ...18:42
tkamppeterdesrt, did you get my mail?18:47
desrtyes.  thank you.18:48
desrtstill waiting for evince to finish opening it :)18:49
tkamppeterdesrt, you will see on the screen how Berlin's streets get built, should be faster than the building of the real streets ...18:50
desrttkamppeter: thanks for not sending me a map of the new airport...18:51
tkamppeterdesrt, this will take decades even on Sweetshark's 42-core machine ...18:52
tkamppeters/42/32/18:52
dobeyhmm. do-release-upgrade is not a very good judge of connection speed i guess (though i'm glad it was wrong)19:01
mhall119seb128: is there a script or instructions I could use to create my own bootable/live Ubuntu ISO?19:03
mhall119I know it's something with debootstrap and seed files, but I don't know how it all goes together to make an image19:03
mhall119this is for desktop, btw19:03
dobeymhall119: i know there are a *lot* of questions about that exact process, on askubuntu. so i'm sure more than one of them points at the appropriate wiki page (though i don't know what that page is) :)19:05
seb128mhall119, I don't know19:06
seb128mhall119, google points to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomization19:06
seb128mhall119, but I don't know how outdated that is19:07
seb128you better ask on #ubuntu-devel19:07
mhall119ok, thanks seb12819:08
ochosihey robert_ancell20:00
robert_ancellochosi, hello20:00
ochosii'm involved with light-locker a bit, so i quickly wanted to ask you something as we were planning a new lightdm based feature20:01
ochosithe VT-switching is a bit annoying when locking the screen and there are still many desktops that will take a while until they'll have a lockscreen in the compositor20:01
ochosiso i was wondering whether we couldn't just start a greeter in the currently running VT as toplevel window20:02
thumperTrevinho: ping20:02
ochosibasically "emulate" lightdm and add some PAM magic20:02
ochosirobert_ancell: or would you say that's a really terrible idea? ^20:02
thumperTrevinho: just wondering if it is possible to have some loopback devices not show in the unity launcher20:03
robert_ancellochosi, there's too many security issues in doing that unfortunately. We did look at that at one point20:03
=== iconoclast is now known as Guest58334
robert_ancellochosi, if you were to go that method it's better for the shell to launch a lock screen20:04
thumperTrevinho: I'm making two or three loopback files and then making btrfs with them, and mounting elsewhere20:04
thumperhowever some show in the launcher, and I don't want them there20:04
* thumper afk for a bit but back later20:04
Trevinhothumper: hi!! isn't the quicklist item to hide from launcher working for you20:04
ochosirobert_ancell: what kind of security issues did you encounter on that route? (we'd launch it from light-locker directly, so basically standing on gnome-screensaver's security shoulders)20:07
robert_ancellochosi, I was thinking the other direction (launched by the daemon)20:09
ochosirobert_ancell: what daemon? you mean light-locker's daemon? or lightdm?20:10
robert_ancellochosi, the lightdm daemon20:10
robert_ancellochosi, in that case, you need a method to access the authentication routines from the daemon, but since the daemon didn't launch you it's hard to ensure that light-locker is a valid client20:10
robert_ancellochosi, you could go the gdm route and provide these interfaces to the session and they are claimed by the first thing to request them (designed to be the shell)20:11
robert_ancellin this case you couldn't wait until light-locker started because another app could claim them before that20:11
ochosior just make the locker call the greeter and make it act as if it were lightdm?20:12
ochosi(since light-locker is designed to be DE independent, we can't really go the session/shell way)20:13
ochosirobert_ancell: ^20:16
robert_ancellochosi, right, but you can't do all the things a full greeter wants to do, e.g. authenticate as other users20:17
ochosirobert_ancell: yeah, that's a small problem, there'd have to be a "switch-user" button20:17
robert_ancellochosi, for Unity 7 we modified g-s to be more like unity greeter. But it can't do all the features20:17
ochosirobert_ancell: but i'd implement that in lightdm-gtk-greeter20:18
robert_ancellochosi, but yes, we looked at making g-s launch u-g in a "user mode"20:18
ochosirobert_ancell: woot? someone in this channel told me it was written from scratch :p20:18
robert_ancellochosi, no, it was a big hack. We've scrapped that and there is a for-scratch implementation for Unity shell instead20:19
robert_ancellochosi, completely doable as long as you make your greeter able to handle both in session and standalone20:19
robert_ancellochosi, you have to potentially watch out for things like the session setting a different theme20:19
ochosirobert_ancell: well the theme is set in the greeter's config, so it's not getting "picked up" by the greeter anyway20:20
ochosirobert_ancell: but yeah, good to hear it's doable20:20
robert_ancellochosi, then you have to make sure it doesn't set the session theme :)20:20
ochosirobert_ancell: hehe, yeah :) well i've done some of this already, e.g. setting special blank times only for the greeter (and reverting them when exiting)20:20
ochosirobert_ancell: basically the idea is to mold lightdm-gtk-greeter and light-locker into a lightdm locking/user-switching team20:21
robert_ancellochosi, so the conclusion from our side was, the most reliable experience using VTs is to make an in-session lock screen that looks like a greeter (though the design people wince that being almost the same can be a worse user experience than being different)20:21
robert_ancellochosi, and when we can do proper multi-session without VTs then we get the full experience20:22
ochosirobert_ancell: yeah, ofc it would be easy to fork g-s and just make it look like the greeter, but then again that isn't very flexible...20:22
ochosirobert_ancell: understandable, i don't see that perspective for e.g. xubuntu in the near future though (xfce is still gtk2)20:22
robert_ancellochosi, I'm open to the idea of having a special interface to the session to allow in session greeters more power (like GDM). But wary about the security considerations / complexity so not pushing it myself20:23
robert_ancellochosi, I hope once the post X stack dust settles it will be clearer if we can just use LightDM as is using reliable session switching20:24
ochosirobert_ancell: ok, great! if you don't mind i might ping you about this again once we've gotten a bit further with light-locker on that front20:25
robert_ancellsure, please do20:25
ochosirobert_ancell: i presume the results of your experiments with g-s arent publicly available (or available at all)?20:25
robert_ancellochosi, I'll find the branch20:25
ochosithanks!20:25
robert_ancellochosi, lp:~robert-ancell/gnome-screensaver/unity20:26
robert_ancellit's one big patch from a git branch I never pushed anywhere (cause I've never learned/liked enough github to push it)20:27
ali1234it would be trivial to make xfwm compositor handle the lock screen20:27
ali1234the problem is not everyone has the compositor enabled20:27
robert_ancellI've been running it for months now. The experience is a lot better than the old gnome-screensaver20:27
ali1234does mir support libwnck?20:30
ochosirobert_ancell: ok, great, will take a look at this20:30
robert_ancellali1234, I don't think so. The current work is for the phone which doesn't need that. They're working on window management (i.e. desktop) functionality now20:31
robert_ancellali1234, you can ask in #ubuntu-mir if you need more info20:31
ali1234well, ideally i need to know if it's part of mir, or something baken into unity8 shell20:32
ali1234it's not part of wayland by design, every compositor has to implement it - and currently none do20:32
ali1234as i understand it, KDE's wayland session doesn't support native clients for this reason20:34
ali1234it's rather difficult to get any information on this because of bunker mentality from all sides20:35
robert_ancellali1234, are you asking if the functionality of libwnck is baked into Mir?20:40
robert_ancellwhich functionality exactly/20:40
ali1234no, i'm asking if mir defines the protocol required for libwnck to work at all20:40
robert_ancell?20:40
ali1234functionality such as the ability for a client to get a list of other client's windows20:40
robert_ancellali1234, ok, I know this one20:40
ali1234all the stuff you need to build a panel that is a separate process to the shell/compositor20:41
robert_ancellali1234, so that information is not currently exposed in the Mir protocol by design because that leaks information between processes. It is exposed in the library interface between the shell (i.e. Unity 8) and libmirserver20:41
robert_ancellali1234, last I heard it was the responsibility of the shell to provide a (secure) interface to that privileged information to other processes that might need it (e.g. a panel)20:42
ali1234so identical to wayland20:42
robert_ancellali1234, yes20:42
robert_ancellali1234, do you want the information for a third party panel?20:43
ali1234yes20:44
ali1234basically, i want libwnck to work20:44
ali1234because that is what all panels use20:44
ali1234(except unity and gnome shell of course)20:44
robert_ancellali1234, yeah, that's the old X world. I think the post X world is going to be more like20:45
robert_ancell1. Some shells will just not allow that20:45
ali1234(when you run them on mir/wayland respectively)20:45
robert_ancell2. Some shells will allow that through plugins (e.g. GNOME)20:45
robert_ancell3. Some (probably not mainstream) shells will allow all sorts of extensibility by providing interfaces and trading security for flexibility20:46
mhall119seb128: do you mind if I move the one client meeting I created (API website for Unity docs)?20:46
ali1234yes, basically every shell will define an incompatible protocol for this20:46
mhall119from Tuesday to Wednesday20:46
robert_ancellali1234, hopefully someone will make a standard, but you're probably right20:46
seb128mhall119, that's ok, thanks for checking20:46
seb128mhall119, the schedule is quite empty anyway, so it's not going to create lot of issues20:47
robert_ancellseb128, can you reliably reproduce that switching bug? I think I understand it and have a fix20:47
ali1234this will pretty much prevent anyone from using wayland except as a backend renderer for X20:47
mhall119well I couldn't very well bug you about scheduling them and then go changing it without asking now can I :)20:47
ali1234unless they're just using a phone or a tablet or something20:47
robert_ancellali1234, or GNOME or KDE or Unity...20:47
robert_ancellali1234, the mainstream shells want this. It makes things more secure and reliable20:47
ali1234as I said, KDE can't handle native wayland clients for this reason20:47
seb128robert_ancell, not sure, I stopped switching users because of it, but I was hitting hit every few switches before, so if that didn't change, "yet"20:47
seb128"yes"20:47
robert_ancellseb128, ok, I'll flick you a branch later and see if it helps20:48
seb128robert_ancell, ok, drop me an email, I'm not likely to try a fix today, but tomorrow is fine ... what's the issue (I'm curious)20:49
robert_ancellseb128, I think it's because lightdm kills the child sessions before they exec(), and this means that the SIGTERM is sent back to the daemon and interpreted as coming from itself. The reason we're seeing this is unity-greeter seems to do two authentications in quick succession (which is allowed but shouldn't)20:50
robert_ancellit's fun with racing with signals and forks20:50
seb128is that something new?20:50
seb128because it was not happening at all early in the cycle20:51
robert_ancellseb128, I think the u-g bug must be new which is triggering it20:51
seb128k20:51
robert_ancellbut it would have existed20:51
seb128let me check how easily I can trigger, or not trigger, the issue20:52
seb128robert_ancell, didn't happen with a few switches, but let's see over a few days with your changes, I usually have it at least once a day20:56
robert_ancellseb128, k20:57
ali1234robert_ancell: btw, "Some shells will allow that through plugins (e.g. GNOME)" sounds a lot like X extensions to me :P21:01
robert_ancellali1234, yep21:01
thumperTrevinho: it says "unlock from launcher", not entirely obvious21:04
thumperclicking on one removed both21:04
Trevinhothumper: mh I agree...21:04
Trevinhobut that's what has been designed :)21:04
Trevinhothumper: mh, weird, iirc it dpeends on the disk label21:04
thumperhmm... I didn't know it was "locked"21:04
Trevinhothumper: or uuid...21:04
Trevinhoprobably it should mention "icon"...21:05
thumperI'm making multiple loopback devices, using "losetup"21:05
desrtxnox: *fight*21:07
mhall119seb128: I used a client room for some appdev track session that really are more client/phonedations oriented than app developer oriented21:47
mhall119since you weren't using those slots anyway, I'm assuming you wouldn't mind :)21:48
seb128mhall119, well, you still have slots on your track...21:48
ochosirobert_ancell: just saw that the branch you pointed me to is one where gnome-screensaver looks like unity-greeter, i was wondering whether there was anything left from your experiments with calling unity-greeter in the same VT instead21:49
seb128mhall119, if the schedule doesn't get more packed I guess it's ok to host a few sessions for you guys, but it doesn't seem to be topic we especially know about or own21:50
robert_ancellochosi, no, didn't go very far with those21:52
mhall119seb128: it looks to be mostly sessions for bill21:53
ochosirobert_ancell: ah ok, well good to know that we won't be duplicating code though :)21:54
seb128mhall119, right, who has nothing to do with "client" afaik ;-)21:54
seb128mhall119, we should maybe get bill to host a track if he has enough sessions for that...21:54
mhall119well they're not sessions for app developers either...21:54
mhall119how is it not client though?21:54
mhall119I can always make bill a track lead on client :)21:56
seb128mhall119, that would be nice21:56
seb128my main issue is that we "lock" people to host tracks who have nothing to do the topics hosted21:56
seb128like client hosts are going to be me and didrocks21:57
mhall119right, same with app dev track typically21:57
seb128but nobody in desktop works on any of the sessions you move to our track21:57
=== Zachary_DuBois|A is now known as Zachary_DuBois
=== cmiller_ is now known as CardinalFang
=== CardinalFang is now known as qengho
xnoxdesrt: =))))) our default compiler targets c89 ;-) and even with using -std=c99 or /usr/bin/c99 you'd get by default all of these bugs http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1698923:31
ubot2`gcc.gnu.org bug 16989 in c "[meta-bug] C99 conformance bugs" [Normal,New]23:31
xnoxdesrt: (that meta-blocking bug is also the reason why gcc is still stuck on c89/gnu89 as the default)23:31
xnoxdesrt: i'm sorry about sad time you had with glib =( but you get to bash everyone about AC_PROG_CC_C99 =))))23:32
xnoxfrom now on.23:32
desrtxnox: fwiw, i'd say c89 is actually stricter than c9923:40
desrtsince there is no mention of excess precision there23:40
desrt(and for lack of a mention, one can only follow the ieee spec)23:42
xnoxdesrt: =))) i've fetched up c89 copy and i didn't quite manage to gather if the reproducibility is explicit or not. I thought c89 doesn't refer to the ieee spec (as in it's not required to implement the ieee for a c89 compliant compiler)23:43
desrtoh... so you can do anything at all for c89?23:43
desrt1 * 1 = 4223:43
xnoxyeap.23:44
desrthandy.23:44
desrtlooks like you win this round >:|23:44
xnoxdesrt: well, you are multiplying ints, thus it would be 1. But 1.0 * 1.0 can give you 1.0000013223:44
desrtbut seriously... assert(func(a) == func(a)) should not fail :p23:44
xnoxdesrt: that's why libnih and upstart use AC_PROG_CC_C99 =)))) otherwise it would assert and fail _a lot_ of things.23:45
desrti wonder how much would break if i tried to use this with glib...23:46
desrtwe use a lot of gnu features23:46
desrtbut they're mostly still accessible if you add some extra underscores or something23:46
desrtxnox: AC_PROG_CC_C99 is a useful hint though... thanks for that23:47
desrtxnox: do you know what happens if it fails to find a strictly c99 compiler?23:47
desrtwill it settle for a normal cc?23:47
desrtwe don't strictly depend on c99 for a lot of reasons (*cough* windows), and i don't want to break existing systems23:48
xnoxdesrt: read the docs, that pragma enables c99 mode, if the compiler by default is not using it. Thus i believe for gcc it actually pushes it from -std=gnu89 to -std=gnu99. But let me check here.23:49
xnoxdesrt: yeap -> checking for gcc option to accept ISO C99... -std=gnu9923:50
desrtcute.23:50
desrti wonder if that is enough to get the strict FP behaviour though23:50
desrtmanpage only says it gets enabled with -std=c9923:50
desrtgnu99 might be exempt still23:50
* desrt checks23:50
desrtya... still crashes with gnu9923:51
desrtyay for "extensions"23:51
xnoxdesrt: lolz. surely there is an autoconf macro to do what you want.23:54
desrtya... one that builds a test program and runs it and aborts ./configure if it fails, with a message for the user to check their CFLAGS :)23:54
desrtxnox: i'll look into this later.  dinner for now23:55
desrti do think we should reevaluate for next cycle, in any case....23:55
desrtthanks for the input23:55
xnoxdesrt: the standard reply would be to rebuild the archive with gnu99 and/or c99 and see what breaks. The fact that clang implements gnu extensions and adds its own does not help the cause to switch to c99 =/23:58

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