[03:04] <sethj> I'm trying to run this testcase http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/312/builds/63606/testcases/1310/results but after following steps 1-3 it only allows me to upgrade to 12.10 not 14.04 (I'm running 12.04 in a VM)
[03:05] <sethj> Do I need to allow pre-release updates?
[07:53] <dkessel> good morning
[08:15] <DanChapman> good morning all
[08:26] <dkessel> good morning DanChapman
[08:28] <elfy> hi dkessel DanChapman
[10:08] <davmor2> Morning all
[13:40] <cgoldberg> balloons, are you able to login to wiki.ubuntu.com ?  It times out on me waiting for my OpenID.
[13:42] <elfy> cgoldberg: works for me
[13:42] <cgoldberg> elfy, weird.  i'll try logging out of LP and clearing browser cache
[13:45] <cgoldberg> heh.. that worked.. logged in now
[13:51] <balloons> cgoldberg, :_) sometimes ff gets weird with ubuntu sso
[13:51]  * dpniel waves to the room from grouper
[13:52] <dpniel> Hey balloons
[13:52] <cgoldberg> o/ dpniel
[13:52] <balloons> hey dpniel
[13:52] <balloons> ohh nice! how's the irc client?
[13:52] <dpniel> hey cgoldberg
[13:53] <dpniel> balloons: finally got channel lists working, been a bit of a pain
[14:03] <balloons> pm's working?
[14:05] <dpniel> balloons: not atm should be soon though :-)
[15:24] <disc0tech> balloons DanChapman - revised MP now awaiting attention for fileroller...
[15:25] <balloons> disc0tech, happy friday to you
[15:25] <disc0tech> you too
[15:28] <balloons> so https://code.launchpad.net/~adam-disc0tech/ubuntu-autopilot-tests/fileroller/+merge/211072
[15:30] <balloons> ok so disc0tech in the _patch_home, you don't need the silliness with the length 25 temp dir
[15:30] <balloons> you can just make a temp folder and use it
[15:31] <balloons> otherwise this looks like a nice improvement at first glance
[15:31] <disc0tech> I wondered what all that was about
[15:31] <disc0tech> will remove :)
[15:31] <balloons> :-) it was something specific for music app needs..
[15:38] <disc0tech> pushed, back to rbox...
[17:57] <balloons> disc0tech, I approved.. have you ever thought about writing tests for the core apps?
[17:57] <disc0tech> Do you have a list of apps considered "core"?
[17:58] <balloons> disc0tech, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/CoreApps/
[17:58] <disc0tech> ah, for the touch?
[17:58] <balloons> disc0tech, basically it's the community "core apps", meaning apps for the ubuntu phablet images
[17:58] <balloons> yep
[17:59] <disc0tech> I will probably wait until I have a supported device before I do anything on touch.
[18:00] <balloons> most folks just hack and write them on our desktops, so don't feel like you need a device
[18:00] <balloons> they run fine on the desktop
[18:00] <disc0tech> Sure, might take a look once I've finished with rbox.
[18:01] <balloons> just thought I'd ping, as I think you might like them. Since the upstream is other community folks within ubuntu, and the apps are in qml, the tests are much easier to write
[18:01] <disc0tech> I'm quite enjoying myself adding various mock items into the rbox tests at the moment :)
[18:01] <balloons> yes, I'm curious to see the end result
[18:01] <disc0tech> got it
[18:33] <senan> balloons, danchapman, hi
[18:33] <balloons> aloha
[18:34] <senan> balloons, work is hectic now a days..working more than 14hr per day :(
[18:35] <balloons> oO senan, hang in there :-)
[18:36] <senan> :(
[18:36] <senan> balloons, major release next month..
[18:39] <DanChapman> hey senan
[18:52] <dkessel> hmm i have to remote 'ubuntu-sdk' in order to upgrade my packages :/
[19:03] <dkessel> nvm p opey helped me
[19:23] <balloons> elopio, did you find any issues with the toolkit and qt 5.2?
[19:23] <balloons> err well, the autopilot helper for the toolkit :)
[19:25] <elopio> balloons: one with the header and notes app, that's the one where I added a skip
[19:25] <elopio> and a weird autopilot or qml misunderstanding that makes an object change before it's clicked.
[19:26] <elopio> balloons: have you found something?
[19:28] <balloons> I'm just suddenly having trouble switching tabs
[19:29] <elopio> balloons: on what app?
[19:32] <balloons> elopio, calendar atm. I was thinking of running the testsuite to see if it still happens
[19:33] <balloons> elopio,  I get dbus timeouts inside autopilot, or straight up crashes
[19:34] <elopio> balloons: I ran all the calendar tests yesterday, or the day before, as there were some failures.
[19:34] <elopio> but they started passing on the jenkins job and on my device.
[19:35] <elopio> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-calendar-app/+bug/1291392
[19:36] <elopio> I'm flashing right now. I'll be able to retry in ~20 minutes if the elders of the internet are good with me.
[19:40] <balloons> elopio, kk.. I'll keep digging
[19:40] <balloons> elopio, yes I'm working on an mp, and i see only one failure now
[19:40] <balloons> well before the tab switching issue
[19:40] <elfy> hi balloons
[19:44] <balloons> hi elfy
[20:00] <balloons> aloha letozaf
[20:01] <letozaf> balloons, hi
[20:02] <letozaf> balloons, I was reading the notes on mzanetti merge proposal for reminders app
[20:03] <balloons> ah yes he pushed something to help
[20:03] <balloons> https://code.launchpad.net/~mzanetti/reminders-app/qmlfile-param/+merge/210891
[20:11] <balloons> elopio, so things fail on the desktop for calendar, but the toolkit tests pass fine, so i'll dig into calendar as the potential source
[20:45] <balloons> elopio, to see what i mean have a look: http://91.189.93.70:8080/job/generic-mediumtests-trusty/1759/?
[20:46] <balloons> this is before; http://91.189.93.70:8080/job/generic-mediumtests-trusty/1747/?. just the one failure at the end of the new event test
[20:46] <balloons> note, no code changes took place
[20:46] <knome> hey balloons
[20:46] <balloons> hey knome
[20:46] <balloons> how is your friday?
[20:46] <knome> busy ;)
[20:47] <knome> were shopping with wife, then had a two-hour sprint to get the xubuntu slideshow in shape
[20:47] <balloons> looking nice now I hope?
[20:47] <knome> better, will get it finished by tuesday, so will leave time nicely for a new upload before thursday :)
[20:47] <knome> and what's up in the QA world?
[20:49] <balloons> well, after vUDS I'm trying to ready plans for image testing in a few weeks, and doing a big drive to document things on d.u.c for app devs
[20:49] <knome> mhm
[20:49] <elfy> pffft - I've been fighting that battle since November
[20:50] <knome> i completely missed vUDS :P
[20:50] <balloons> yea, it came a little late
[20:50] <elfy> so did I
[20:51] <balloons> sessions are all recorded and all that
[20:51] <balloons> but yea, trying to spread some quality into app devs
[20:51] <knome> as if there was anything that was *really* interesting to xubuntu
[20:52] <knome> without taking anything off from the session, most of the things are unrelated and make no difference anyway
[20:52] <knome> those which do, well, the news will land to us sooner or later
[20:52] <knome> and i'd expect more than just vUDS sessions for bigger things :)
[20:52] <elfy> :)
[20:52] <balloons> heh.. it was an interesting vUDS I suppose
[20:53] <balloons> the mid-cycle meetups are interesting, but i;'m not sure how i feel about them
[20:53] <knome> mid-cycle?
[20:53] <knome> come on, we're past feature freeze, and it's soon beta 2 time
[20:53] <balloons> there was a session on vUDS itself. I kind of liked the idea rick mentioned about once a month, 1 day, focused sessions
[20:54] <balloons> knome, right, it's really akward
[20:54] <balloons> however, that idea didn't float, so :-)
[20:54] <knome> it would be a better time to meet with a team internally
[20:54] <knome> but i guess that's a lot what vUDS is for canonical people...
[20:54] <balloons> well, it's nice because it gets communication out to everyone, and anyone interested can follow along
[20:55] <balloons> plus, we don't plan full cycles of work much anymore
[20:56] <balloons> anyways, it was also dicussed about vUDS being only for devs, and others are a bit sidelined
[20:56] <knome> hmph, but what's the point to communicate out when it's really late already?
[20:56] <balloons> they suggested changes to open it up next time
[20:56] <knome> the "real" UDS's were much to devs as well
[20:56] <balloons> knome, well there's a lot of stuff going on
[20:56] <knome> i'd expect the major things to have been planned by now
[20:56] <balloons> meaning, if i only talked to you once every 6 months things can change
[20:56] <knome> and not need any specific communicating
[20:57] <balloons> well most of it was looking forward
[20:57] <knome> except to people who are interested, who can follow appropriate mailing lists etc.
[20:57] <balloons> we won't meet after trusty
[20:57] <knome> that's weird.
[20:58] <balloons> I'm stating fact, not opinion
[20:58] <knome> fact on what? :)
[20:58] <balloons> they are 3 month cycles, with no relation to release
[20:58] <balloons> vUDS
[20:58] <knome> yeah...
[20:59] <knome> and that's weird to me
[20:59] <balloons> yep..
[20:59] <knome> they should have relation to release
[20:59] <balloons> me too my friend
[20:59] <knome> UDS had a strong relation
[20:59] <knome> now they replace it with vUDS
[20:59] <knome> and make it something completely different?
[20:59] <balloons> I don't think that was the intent
[20:59] <balloons> the intent was to meet more often, it's simply shifted timing for whatever reason
[20:59] <knome> i try to have faith and believe that's the case, but if it is, and things have gone wrong, why not fix it?
[21:00] <balloons> that was part of the session methinks
[21:00] <knome> yeah, hard to comment on what was discussed there
[21:00] <balloons> i missed part of it too, so . . .
[21:01] <balloons> we'll see what happens next
[21:01] <knome> but the reality is that as long as vUDS is useful for canonical employees, it's going to do just fine
[21:01] <balloons> I wouldn't say it's useful for canonical employees
[21:01] <balloons> speaking personally
[21:01] <knome> well, you're not a dev
[21:01] <knome> maybe i should say "canonical developers"
[21:01] <balloons> if the goal was to talk amongst a dev group, there should be simpler ways
[21:02] <knome> there is... IRC channels
[21:02] <knome> you can have daily discussions
[21:02] <knome> there are mailing lists
[21:02] <balloons> right-o.. so if that was the only thing in contention, vUDS wouldn't exist
[21:02] <knome> note, i try not to sound bitter, or against anybody here
[21:02] <balloons> not at all, no worries :)
[21:03] <knome> but sometimes it has felt like (v)UDS is a public forum, where "everybody can participate", but actual decisions are still made by the core people
[21:04] <knome> and i think the virtual event actually makes people more disconnected than the live UDS
[21:04] <knome> sure, not all could come to attend the live event, but once they were there, it was easier to get involved
[21:04] <knome> now the thresold to jump into a hangout is bigger
[21:04] <balloons> yes, people feel anxious about joining hangouts, who might otherwise have joined a circle discussion
[21:05] <knome> and it's harder to get questions answered if you're not on the hangout
[21:05] <balloons> they shouldn't persay, but it's there
[21:05] <elfy> s/harder/almost impossible
[21:05] <elfy> just the same as in the old days
[21:05] <balloons> I mean you can go in audio only, etc.. IRC works for questions I think
[21:05] <balloons> but discussion doesn't work IRC -- hangout
[21:05] <knome> balloons, yes, but the hangout leader(s) should read those messages...
[21:06] <elfy> balloons: only if someone bothers to read the IRC stuff instead of watching a video
[21:06] <knome> which didn't happen in all vUDS sessions i was in
[21:06] <elfy> nor any I've been in
[21:06] <balloons> in the sessions I'm in, questions are treated well.. but, as I said, I think the bigger issue isn't a question, it's trying to discuss
[21:06] <elfy> or if they do - then it's too late
[21:06] <knome> yeah, it's so cool to watch pleia2's cat walk on the screen that people forget that somebody not on their audio/video might have a question ;)
[21:06] <balloons> course, if I'm in them, I watch irc, so
[21:07] <knome> balloons, i'm not saying that's a problem of vUDS, it's a problem of session leaders
[21:07] <elfy> you might ;)
[21:07] <knome> well... if people had the motivation, somebody on the session could act as an "announcer"
[21:07] <knome> that meaning, saying this others wrote on the channel
[21:07] <knome> of course it's slower than just audio-audio
[21:08] <knome> but hey, you took the event online!
[21:08] <knome> you knew that was coming.
[21:14] <balloons> knome, yea I tried to repeat questions before answering but surely didn't
[21:15] <balloons> it's hard without a dedicated notetaker and announcer as you said
[21:15] <balloons> in general my worry is disccusion doesn't happen unless you are in the fishbowl, aka hangout
[21:15] <balloons> so the hangouts feel like echo chambers
[21:15] <knome> exactly my thoughts
[21:16] <balloons> even shy folks @ UDS would discuss things and contribute.. even when i was alone in the fishbowl
[21:16] <balloons> last UDS I had a few sessions I did alone, with only folks on IRC and me on video
[21:16] <balloons> it's a horrible experience
[21:16] <knome> and the reason why i have thought that it is just a public place to "participate", but actually the core people make the decisions anyway
[21:16] <balloons> this time none of that, but ...
[21:17] <balloons> well, the point is these decisions aren;t meant to be in a vaccum.. and I suppose you are right mailing list threads end up being better for discussing than live if folks won't join in
[21:18] <knome> yeah, or even if people join...
[21:19] <knome> i mean it's good that people have planned and prepared the sessions
[21:19] <knome> but many times it feels like the decisions are already made
[21:19] <knome> if you know what i mean
[21:19] <knome> so the vUDS session just works as a "community stamp", where being quiet means approving...
[21:19] <knome> which is obviously wrong
[21:20] <balloons> yea... any ideas for a solution?
[21:20] <knome> not really
[21:20] <knome> the fact is,
[21:20] <knome> some of the decisions aren't for the community to make
[21:20] <knome> and maybe that should be communicated more clearly
[21:21] <knome> that is, per decision
[21:21] <balloons> not every decision is open for full debate. As you know a meritocracy isn't mob rule so to speak
[21:22] <knome> i'm also talking about canonical vs. community decisions
[21:22] <knome> some things will land, regardless of merit in the community
[21:22] <balloons> I mean i make no distinction on the person or group making the decision. if they are taking care of the system/package/platform within the echosystem, they are the ones driving decisions
[21:22] <knome> absolutely.
[21:22]  * balloons laughs that knome rules with an iron fist
[21:23] <knome> well i do... ;>
[21:23] <knome> i guess the other question is, "do we really need to take this discussion public"
[21:23] <dkessel> good evening. good discussion!
[21:24] <knome> rather than set up a "fake" public discussion prone to people whining about the decision without merit, why not prepare it well in advance, and plan *good* communication/news about it
[21:24] <knome> that's what has made many people in the community angry during the last years
[21:24] <knome> even (old) "core" members
[21:24] <knome> bad communication from canonical
[21:24] <knome> not being clear what is debatable and what is not
[21:24] <knome> landing stuff too late
[21:25] <knome> not always considering effects to other teams
[21:26] <balloons> so reading it on omg might be perferable?
[21:26] <knome> even a vUDS that was scheduled in a better place would help a lot with that
[21:26] <knome> no,
[21:26] <dkessel> I have one question. before the vUDSes, were there better notes from the sessions? Because that too is a problem I believe. I have to watch an entire hour of video to find out what was discussed.
[21:26] <knome> reading it come from canonical well in advance, with argumentation, is better than it landing in the archive
[21:27] <knome> dkessel, depends much on the session
[21:27] <balloons> mm, yea definitely depends
[21:27] <knome> if a session had a "secretary", they were good
[21:27] <knome> if not, it was just as good as an internal meeting
[21:27] <balloons> well gents I have got to run, dinner date with wife, truly I'd rather stay and chat
[21:28] <dkessel> enjoy, balloons
[21:28] <knome> balloons, have fun, tell her you love her, and come back on monday to discuss this with us :)
[21:28] <balloons> knome, I appreciate the feedback
[21:28] <balloons> hehe.. if we can arrive at a proposal for change, we can present and discuss it
[21:29] <balloons> i know folks agree with the sentitment.. it's fixing it. and indeed the desire for vUDS is to be open, communicative, etc, etc
[21:29] <balloons> ubuntu is unique in that regard, and I think folks hold us to a higher standard for it
[21:29] <balloons> which isn't a bad thing at all
[21:29] <balloons> hey dkessel
[21:29] <knome> it's hard to say what the community at large needs from a vUDS... it's hard to imagine how it could be useful for the xubuntu team
[21:29] <knome> because what *we* need more is more daily communication with people, and getting to know them
[21:30] <dkessel> yes balloons ?
[21:30] <knome> real-life UDS helped with getting to know people
[21:30] <knome> there is no hallway chats or beer-evenings in vUDS
[21:30] <balloons> dkessel, ohh, you said enjoy.. I thought you said hello
[21:30] <balloons> ty I will enjoy
[21:30] <dkessel> 😊
[21:30] <balloons> yep, all good points knome.. we'll pick up again next time we're both around
[21:30] <knome> yep
[21:31] <balloons> you know where to find me, hah!
[21:31] <knome> heh, i do
[21:31] <knome> balloons, for reading, when you have time, before i forget and/or if it's a long time we speak again: http://open.knome.fi/2013/03/04/is-uds-no-longer-uds/
[21:31] <knome> balloons, year old, and before the first vUDS, but most of that are still valid points
[21:47] <dkessel> knome, wow... long post ;) but I have to say I agree with many things. you also wrote about how canonical said they would review the new format after two vUDS events. so let's see if they will.
[21:48] <knome> two events went a long time ago... nothing changed
[21:48] <knome> dkessel, yeah, a long post, but also a long preparation, i think i had that boiling for almost a week, and consulted *many* people
[21:48] <knome> to try to be objective, and to the point, and not say untrue things
[21:49] <dkessel> oh right two events not cycles my mistake
[21:50] <knome> from what i've seen, the surveys jono did were as useful as nothing
[21:51] <knome> http://open.knome.fi/2011/11/09/canonical-community-collaboration/
[21:51] <knome> = almost longer comments than post itself, and many ;)
[21:52] <elopio> balloons: I can't see the icons of the calendar toolbar, but I can't get it to crash as it's doing there
[21:58] <elopio> ah, didier said we should dist-upgrade the image 237.