[00:00] <Unit193> fglrx is the only thing I find usable on the netbook (which doesn't work with 3.13 kernels...)
[00:00] <brainwash> nouveau is/was also known to cause problems with gtk-greeter
[00:01] <ochosi> yeah, but we fixed them to a degree where they don't pose a security threat anymore
[00:01] <ochosi> not much more we can do
[00:02] <brainwash> should be fine then
[00:02] <ochosi> yeah, to the worst ppl will see a garbled background i think
[00:03] <ochosi> wasn't able to reproduce that though
[00:03] <ochosi> it worked for me after our last fix
[00:04] <brainwash> I've encountered the "2 empty windows" issue today and also the temporary garbled background
[00:05] <slickymaster> forestpiskie: at your disposal for review <-- https://code.launchpad.net/~slickymaster/ubuntu-manual-tests/ubuntu-manual-tests/+merge/210940
[00:11] <jjfrv8> hey, slickymaster 
[00:11] <slickymaster> hey jjfrv8 
[00:11] <slickymaster> jjfrv8: you end up doing all the work yestrday
[00:11] <slickymaster> s/yestrday/yesterday
[00:12] <jjfrv8> not yesterday. did you see my notes when I finished last night?
[00:12] <slickymaster> no. did you leave them here?
[00:13] <slickymaster> yeah and you're right, it wasn't yesterday
[00:13] <jjfrv8> yup. I only managed to finish chapters 11 & 12 last night (yesterday morning, your time)
[00:13] <slickymaster> silly slickymaster
[00:13] <jjfrv8> but just now I finished the rest of the chapters
[00:13] <jjfrv8> haven't pushed them yet though
[00:13] <slickymaster> hmm going to take a look at the backlog
[00:14] <slickymaster> so everything it's pretty much done
[00:14] <slickymaster> great effort jjfrv8, thanks for that
[00:14] <jjfrv8> chs. 11 & 12 were the two that had to have refs to xscreensaver removed. all of the other just had to have settings manager entities updated.
[00:14] <slickymaster> yes
[00:14] <jjfrv8> so yeah, if knome approves, we should be pretty much done
[00:15] <slickymaster> I'm assuming that the reference to gThumb is also already removed, right?
[00:15] <jjfrv8> affirmative, knome had done that a while ago
[00:16] <slickymaster> ok, we're in a good spot waiting relaxed for dosc-freeze
[00:16] <slickymaster> *doc-freeze
[00:16] <jjfrv8> think so 
[00:17] <slickymaster> and it's been a rewarding cycle, documentation wise
[00:17] <slickymaster> at least a productive one
[00:17] <jjfrv8> agree
[00:18] <jjfrv8> I'm going to go back through all the pages just to see if I overlooked anything or introduced any typos. Any other sets of eyes would also be beneficial.
[00:19] <knome> jjfrv8, run a test build locally to see if there is any validation errors
[00:19] <knome> unless you are on precise... :)
[00:19] <jjfrv8> afraid so
[00:19] <knome> i'll run that anyway with the merge proposal before merging
[00:20] <jjfrv8>  and I never pulled the version of coreutils from saucy
[00:20] <slickymaster> I was doing that :P
[00:20] <slickymaster> hey knome 
[00:20] <ochosi> micahg: reminder about xubuntu-default-settings merge-requests
[00:21] <slickymaster> btw knome what ever happened to your start page revision
[00:21] <knome> slickymaster, it's in main.
[00:21] <slickymaster> it seems to be in same kind of oblivion
[00:21] <knome> eg. lp:xubuntu-docs
[00:21] <slickymaster> oh
[00:21] <slickymaster> I want to pull it
[00:34] <knome> i got to go to bed.
[00:34] <knome> see you tomorrow :)
[00:35] <micahg> ochosi: yep, will try to take a look tonight
[00:35] <jjfrv8> night, knome 
[00:37] <slickymaster> nighty knome 
[00:47] <slickymaster> to for me to go
[00:47] <slickymaster> cy guys tomorrow
[00:47] <jjfrv8> night, slickymaster 
[01:22] <ochosi> micahg: thanks
[10:53] <slickymasterWork> knome: you around?
[10:55] <slickymasterWork> knome: regarding your rewriting of the start page of the -docs, I have two suggestions:
[10:56] <slickymasterWork> knome: 1) Reword <p>The <a href="file:///usr/share/xubuntu-docs/desktop-guide/index.html">Official Documentation</a> provides documentation to the most common issues with Xubuntu.</p> to <p>The <a href="file:///usr/share/xubuntu-docs/desktop-guide/index.html">Official Documentation</a> not only provides documentation to the most common issues with Xubuntu, but also helpful tips, tricks, and configuration suggestions.</p>
[10:57] <slickymasterWork> knome: 2) Reword <p>When you are seeking for help, please note that most of the general Ubuntu help also applies to Xubuntu.</p> to <p>When seeking for help, please note that most of the general Ubuntu help also applies to Xubuntu.</p>
[10:58] <knome> slickymasterWork, i don't like the "not only" -structure on the first sentence, but it would be okay to add that information as another sentence or so
[10:58] <knome> slickymasterWork, otherwise, sounds good
[10:59] <slickymasterWork> knome: the idea would be to give a broader connotation, regarding the "not only"
[11:00] <knome> sure.
[11:00] <slickymasterWork> to the -docs, that is
[11:00] <knome> could be "...issues with Xubuntu. It also provides helpful..."
[11:00] <slickymasterWork> yes
[11:02] <slickymasterWork> knome: we're still maintaining the ubiquity sprint later on, right?
[11:08] <knome> yep
[11:08] <knome> we can talk about other issues as well though
[11:10] <slickymasterWork> ok, I'll leave you wit those suggestions to the start page in the meanwhile :P
[11:10] <slickymasterWork> s/wit/with
[11:18] <knome> sure
[11:21] <brainwash> ochosi: bug 1291914
[11:21] <brainwash> any thoughts?
[11:21] <knome> that's not actually a bug
[11:21] <knome> we were going to drop those anyway
[11:21] <brainwash> ok
[11:21] <knome> but i guess we should drop the .desktop files
[11:23] <brainwash> no alternative solution to still promote "contribute to xubuntu"?
[11:23] <brainwash> to make user aware of it
[11:23] <brainwash> the user
[11:24] <knome> brainwash, it's mentioned on the new documentation startpage
[11:25] <brainwash> ok, that's fine then
[11:26] <knome> indeed
[11:27] <slickymasterWork> knome: don't know if you saw it already, but yesterday I added something to http://pad.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu1404DocCallTranslators
[11:27] <knome> i didn't
[11:28] <knome> oh, right
[11:28] <knome> too close to the color :P
[11:28] <knome> i think the instructions we link to is a bit "ugh"
[11:28] <knome> i mean,
[11:28] <knome> it's not really *that* important for our docs
[11:29] <knome> (all of it)
[11:29] <knome> of course it's nice to have guidelines and have contributors follow them
[11:29] <knome> but it's a mostly separate entity
[11:29] <knome> (the docs)
[11:30] <knome> and as long as it's coherent with itself...
[11:30] <knome> but i don't know, it's a good question to discuss
[11:30] <knome> because i do think there might be some balancing with that
[11:30] <knome> too much guidelines -> really hard to get started
[11:30] <knome> too little guidelines -> bad translations
[11:31] <slickymasterWork> I see what you mean
[11:31] <knome> i guess we should do another call in the local teams
[11:31] <slickymasterWork> it's a trick balance
[11:31] <slickymasterWork> *trciky
[11:31] <knome> we could look which languages we ship by default
[11:31] <knome> then ask at least *those* language teams to think about translating the docs
[11:32] <knome> to take a first step towards more translations
[11:32] <slickymasterWork> presently, we're just shipping 3 languages 
[11:32] <knome> i meant langpacks
[11:32] <slickymasterWork> yes, I saw that after typing it
[11:32] <slickymasterWork> my bad
[11:32] <knome> iirc/aiui, we're shipping around 10 maybe
[11:33] <slickymasterWork> honestly, don't know
[11:33] <knome> i guess one of the criteria for including a langpack could be "has fully translated documentation"
[11:33] <slickymasterWork> as we're speaking about translations, what about the slideshow?
[11:33] <knome> i mean, now that we have a 100% finnish translation, it's kind of odd that we don't ship the finnish *langpack*
[11:34] <knome> the slideshow is translatable
[11:34] <knome> always been
[11:34] <knome> and yeah, we probably should note that one can do translations for that as well
[11:34] <slickymasterWork> cough cough and portuguese -> 100% cough
[11:34] <knome> yep.
[11:34] <slickymasterWork> I tried to translated and couldn't
[11:34] <knome> really?
[11:35] <slickymasterWork> we spoke about that already
[11:35] <slickymasterWork> some months ago
[11:35] <knome> did we?
[11:35] <slickymasterWork> I'm almost sure of that
[11:36] <knome> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/trusty/+source/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/+pots/ubiquity-slideshow-xubuntu/pt/+translate
[11:36] <slickymasterWork> knome: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu
[11:37]  * slickymasterWork damns knome for always having the right solution
[11:37] <slickymasterWork> ;)
[11:37] <knome> :)
[11:37] <knome> so yeah, you need to translate the ubuntu package
[11:38] <knome> but since we have a sprint today, i would hold
[11:38] <knome> we're prone to change strings
[11:38] <slickymasterWork> I'm going to make at least one change
[11:38] <slickymasterWork> :P
[11:38] <knome> haha
[11:38] <slickymasterWork> suggestion, that is
[11:39] <knome> well, feel free to translate it all
[11:39] <knome> but be prepared to retranslate ;)
[11:40] <slickymasterWork> no rushes, that's something I can make in an hour, so I'll wait
[11:40] <slickymasterWork> we still have some days before doc-freeze
[11:41] <knome> yep
[11:41] <knome> oh btw,
[11:41] <knome> there are also .po's in the branch
[11:41] <knome> if you want to translate locally
[11:41] <slickymasterWork> I'll use the .po file
[11:41] <slickymasterWork> you were right, doing it locally is way faster
[11:56] <knome> yep.
[12:00] <knome> off to go shopping with wife
[12:00] <knome> bbl
[13:09] <elfy> knome slickymasterWork "When you are seeking for help" ... When you are looking for help OR When you are seeking help 
[13:35] <elfy> slickymasterWork: thanks - merged and synced - you had a bunch of bugs attached to it for some reason 
[14:04] <slickymasterWork> hey elfy
[14:05] <slickymasterWork> those bugs are attached, even though they're 'Fix Released' status, because I'm using the same branch to all the MP's
[14:05] <slickymasterWork> thanks elfy 
[14:29] <ochosi> folks, i've started a post about locking in 14.04, feel free to read through and suggest improvements: http://xubuntu.org/?p=2255&preview=true
[14:29] <ochosi> i wanna publish it sometime close to the release of 14.04, so there's still plenty of time to polish it
[14:29] <ochosi> but these are the outlines of what i'd like to have
[14:32] <slickymasterWork> ochosi: I forgot how we login into the site :P
[14:33] <slickymasterWork> thnaks
[14:33] <ochosi> np
[14:33] <slickymasterWork> s/thnaks/thanks
[14:49] <ochosi> Unit193: i set it up as a separate project, also to avoid license ambiguities: https://launchpad.net/xubuntu-community-artwork
[16:39] <knome> i'm here, and we can pretty much start when everybody else is about
[16:39] <knome> jjfrv8, ochosi, pleia2, slickymasterWork 
[16:47] <pleia2> o/
[16:47] <knome> oi
[16:48] <pleia2> I forgot the instructions for getting and running the dev slideshow again :)
[16:48] <knome> heh
[16:48] <knome> bzr branch lp:ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu
[16:48] <knome> cd ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu
[16:48] <knome> ./test-slideshow.sh xubuntu
[16:49] <pleia2> ty
[16:49] <knome> np
[16:50] <knome> as long as you have the right dependencies, the easiest thing to test-run :D
[16:50] <jjfrv8> o/
[16:50] <knome> hey jjfrv8 
[16:50] <jjfrv8> hey
[16:51] <jjfrv8> going through the slideshow now to refresh my memory
[16:52] <knome> yep, good
[16:52] <pleia2> favourites
[16:52] <pleia2> tsk, we use en_US by default
[16:52] <knome> :P
[16:52] <knome> file?
[16:52] <pleia2> bug?
[16:52] <knome> no, which file
[16:53] <pleia2> Keep track of your applications
[16:53] <pleia2> we can put a picture of my cat in the mugshow file right?
[16:53] <pleia2> mugshot
[16:53] <knome> lol, let's discuss that
[16:53] <knome> i have something done behind the curtains
[16:53] <knome> ooh ooh! 
[16:53] <knome> ;)
[16:54] <pleia2> hehe
[16:55] <pleia2> inconsistent bolding of application names on Ready to go!
[16:55] <knome> not inconsistent
[16:55] <knome> just not a straightforward logic
[16:55] <pleia2> looks inconsistent :)
[16:56] <knome> if description bold app name else normal
[16:56] <pleia2> shouldn't it be abiword then?
[16:56] <pleia2> not Abiword
[16:57] <knome> huh, no
[16:57] <knome> why?
[16:57] <ochosi> o/
[16:57]  * pleia2 shrugs
[16:57] <pleia2> see, I don't understand even once it's explained to me :)
[16:57] <knome> pleia2, bolding is different than case?
[16:57] <jjfrv8> it's actually spelled AbiWord on the menu and in the docs
[16:58] <knome> slickymasterWork, slickymaster: ping ping!
[16:58] <pleia2> knome: my point is that it looks goofy, and we won't be sitting next to users explaining the rationale
[16:58] <ochosi> knome: frankly, i'd go for all bold or none, the logic may be sound, but for the last slide it doesn't look nice and users prolly wont get it
[16:58] <ochosi> pleia2: +1
[16:58] <ochosi> :)
[16:58] <pleia2> Help & Support
[16:58] <knome> well,
[16:58] <pleia2> "Find it by clicking on Help on the main menu."
, web browser?
[16:59] <pleia2> should we tell people "Search" in the main menu?
[16:59] <ochosi> yeah, why not
[17:00] <knome> #startmeeting Docs sprint
[17:00] <meetingology> Meeting started Fri Mar 14 17:00:20 2014 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[17:00] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[17:00] <knome> #topic Ubiquity slideshow
[17:00] <knome> i want to go through three steps:
[17:00] <pleia2> oh, I thought we were already doing this :)
[17:00] <knome> 1) check if we have all the *slides* we want, or we want to extend
[17:01] <knome> 2) check if the artwork is suitable, the layouts work etc.
[17:01] <knome> 3) review the content on the current slides thoroughly (which we were already doing)
[17:01] <knome> #subtopic Review slides
[17:02] <knome> so... feedback?
[17:02] <knome> do we want a slide on desktop (theme) customizing?
[17:02]  * ochosi pulls the last rev
[17:03] <pleia2> I think the panel one is sufficient
[17:03] <pleia2> customizing is too complicated for a slide
[17:03] <ochosi> i think knome was thinking "colorizing"
[17:03] <ochosi> which is mostly what "gtk-theme-config" does
[17:03] <knome> what about highlighting the possibility to do that, and then pointing to the docs?
[17:03] <ochosi> (despite itsname)
[17:03] <knome> gtk-theme-config and the other appearance settings, yeah
[17:04] <knome> 18:48  knome: bzr branch lp:ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu
[17:04] <knome> 18:48  knome: cd ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu
[17:04] <knome> 18:48  knome: ./test-slideshow.sh xubuntu
[17:05] <knome> ochosi, ^
[17:05] <ochosi> ty
[17:05]  * ochosi just came home, so still a bit lagging behind
[17:06] <jjfrv8> right now there's some overlap between Keep track... and Make the desktop... maybe move all the menu stuff to one slide and do desktop theme on the other?
[17:06] <knome> just pushed rev601
[17:06] <knome> jjfrv8, sounds good to me
[17:06] <knome> others agree?
[17:07] <ochosi> (still branching...)
[17:08] <slickymasterWork> knome: pong
[17:08] <knome> slickymasterWork, you just stepped into a sprint ;)
[17:08] <knome> pleia2, what do you think?
[17:09] <slickymasterWork> sorry, had two juggle a few issues in between
[17:09] <slickymasterWork> s/two/to
[17:09] <pleia2> I liked having them separate, they felt like different things to me
[17:10] <knome> the other argument for merging is that then the "make the..." could have some cool color artwork.
[17:10] <knome> and the "keep track..." could lose the biiiiig menu shot.
[17:10] <pleia2> this menu is new this release, I like having it
[17:10] <knome> though the shot is not current
[17:10] <pleia2> maybe drop it next release, but I don't want it to be a surprise to people when they load up their desktop (still might be, but we try)
[17:11] <knome> so we should take a new shot
[17:11] <pleia2> yeah
[17:12] <slickymasterWork> regarding the xubuntu desktop slide (the 2nd one), don't you think it's a bit heavy
[17:12] <slickymasterWork> ?
[17:12] <knome> so, are you still against putting the menulibre stuff there?
[17:12] <knome> slickymasterWork, we could try to add more padding
[17:13] <slickymasterWork> couldn't some of the text be cutted?
[17:13] <slickymasterWork> I mean truncated 
[17:14] <slickymasterWork> that all explanation about the top panel is in the docs anyway and IMO it seems that it's a bit too much in that slide
[17:15] <slickymasterWork> and doesn't actually works either informatively or aesthetically 
[17:16] <knome> not sure
[17:16] <knome> again, what do others thing?
[17:16] <knome> *think
[17:18] <jjfrv8> I kind of agree with slickymasterWork but I don't think it's terrible as is
[17:19]  * ochosi is still branching..
[17:19] <jjfrv8> might just need some dressing up, like with bullets or something
[17:20] <slickymasterWork> well I wouldn't adjectivate it as terrible, but somehow it doesn't seem to fit with the other slides
[17:20]  * slickymasterWork is also still branching rev601
[17:20] <jjfrv8> adjectivate :)
[17:21] <slickymasterWork> jjfrv8: bad choice of word or bad english altogether?
[17:21] <jjfrv8> neither, I liked it
[17:22] <ochosi> what's the difference between adjectivate and adjectify?
[17:23] <pleia2> I think they're both made up words
[17:23] <pleia2> :)
[17:23] <ochosi> ;>
[17:23] <knome> pleia2, that's not a difference, that's a similarity
[17:23] <slickymasterWork> pleia2: do you disapprove the wording in the wiskher slide?
[17:23] <knome> pushed rev602
[17:24] <knome> pull and check the desktop slide :)
[17:24] <slickymasterWork> or am I getting you wrong?
[17:24]  * slickymasterWork hasn't yet finished branching rev601 :P
[17:24]  * slickymasterWork is at work with a lousy bandwith
[17:24] <knome> heh
[17:24] <ochosi> same here :(
[17:25] <slickymasterWork> Ctrl+C and staring all over again :P
[17:25] <slickymasterWork> s/staring/starting
[17:25] <ochosi> slickymasterWork: haha, same here
[17:25] <knome> boo :)
[17:25] <knome> you should have done this in advance...
[17:25]  * slickymasterWork and ochosi will have their revenge knome 
[17:26] <knome> while we are at it, is there any other slides that we'd like to add in addition to the customization slide?
[17:27] <knome> pleia2, the same argument goes for gtk-theme-config than the menu: it's new for this cycle
[17:27] <pleia2> yeah, but less obvious
[17:27] <knome> and probably the poster child of the customizability we always tell xubuntu is full of
[17:27] <jjfrv8> knome, I'm still getting 601
[17:27] <knome> it would be nice to tell the users "here's a cool thing you can do after installing"
[17:28] <knome> jjfrv8, finish it, updating to the latest rev shouldn't take too long from that
[17:28] <slickymasterWork> we'll have to draw a line somewhere
[17:28] <jjfrv8> ? I pulled from scratch
[17:28] <slickymasterWork> I mean this cycle is full of new stuff and it can't all be ported into the slideshow
[17:28] <knome> jjfrv8, 'bzr pull' gets the latest revisions, no need to branch every time
[17:29] <jjfrv8> oh
[17:29] <elfy> slickymasterWork: I unlinked them ... 
[17:29] <knome> slickymasterWork, no, but i really think we *should* include the desktop looks customizability
[17:29] <knome> i always thought we'd add a slide for that
[17:29] <slickymasterWork> agree with you on that knome 
[17:29] <slickymasterWork> unlinked what elfy ?
[17:30] <knome> so i'm not proposing to add everything that's new
[17:30] <knome> just the highlights and cool things
[17:31] <elfy> slickymasterWork: bugs that were nothing to do with the MP
[17:31] <jjfrv8> "no revisions or tags to pull"
[17:31] <knome> jjfrv8, hmm..
[17:31] <knome> oops
[17:31] <knome> i only committed
[17:31] <knome> pushing now.
[17:32] <knome> sorry
[17:32] <slickymasterWork> pleia2: in the beginning of the sprint you said something about the favorites. where you referring to the wisker slide?
[17:32] <knome> done
[17:32] <slickymasterWork> oh, thanks for that elfy 
[17:32] <knome> slickymasterWork, just favorites vs. favourites
[17:32] <ochosi> weee finished
[17:32] <slickymasterWork> oh, ok
[17:32] <knome> ochosi, now pull again to get 602
[17:32] <knome> should be quick
[17:32] <knome> ...relatively
[17:33] <ochosi> yup done
[17:33] <slickymasterWork> pulling
[17:33] <ochosi> ok, so what were we talking about? :D
[17:33] <knome> desktop slide
[17:33] <jjfrv8> knome, good idea with the alignment
[17:33] <pleia2> slickymasterWork: oh sorry, I was wondering what you were asking about, yeah what knome said :)
[17:33] <knome> i also tweaked the texts a bit
[17:34] <knome> so are shorter now
[17:34]  * slickymasterWork is now watching rev602
[17:34] <knome> jjfrv8, i think you might have 601 if you have right-aligned text :)
[17:34] <jjfrv8> no, it's 602.
[17:34] <knome> ok, good
[17:34] <knome> does it have right-aligned text? :)
[17:35] <jjfrv8> no, left-aligned
[17:35] <knome> ok good
[17:35] <knome> the main thing is that it should have three columns
[17:35] <jjfrv8> I meant how the text lined up with the parts of the panel being described
[17:35] <knome> yep
[17:35] <knome> we might want to change the last paragraph now
[17:36] <knome> "Finally, ..." is a weird start now
[17:36] <ochosi> i'm wondering whether the three areas should have a slight separator in between
[17:36] <knome> "If you don't like this panel layout for a reason or another, ...."
[17:36] <ochosi> but maybe it's over the top
[17:36] <ochosi> yeah, s/Finally//
[17:36] <ochosi> i like the panel slide generally
[17:36] <slickymasterWork> knome: I know you wanted to change this slide layout, but I do you really think that three different tones of blue work?
[17:37]  * knome shrugs
[17:37] <knome> ochosi?
[17:37] <ochosi> it might be a little over the top, as it's the most common layout ever, but the idea makes sense to me as we changed the layout
[17:37] <slickymasterWork> right now it would be my only objection
[17:37] <ochosi> there will be the wallpaper in between
[17:37] <ochosi> below the three sections of text
[17:37] <ochosi> right knome?
[17:38] <knome> well,
[17:38] <knome> in a way or other, that was the idea
[17:38] <knome> but i'm not sure how doable it is with this small space
[17:39] <ochosi> depends on your wallpaper ;)
[17:40] <slickymasterWork> the left alignment of the text is a good improvement IMO  
[17:40] <slickymasterWork> makes the slide somewhat more 'open'
[17:40] <knome> pushed rev603
[17:41] <slickymasterWork> you're killing me knome :P
[17:41] <knome> :P
[17:41] <knome> slickymasterWork, use 'bzr pull'
[17:41] <slickymasterWork> that's what I've been doing
[17:41] <knome> heh
[17:42] <ochosi> mhm, not bad
[17:43] <ochosi> btw, i think the contrast between the xubuntu-logo and the bg color is a little low on the first slide
[17:43] <knome> ochosi, yep, noted that
[17:43] <slickymasterWork> sorry for this guys, but definitely I don't like those three blue stripes
[17:43] <knome> slickymasterWork, propose something?
[17:44] <ochosi> the blue at the bottom is different from the one above, right?
[17:44] <knome> no
[17:44] <slickymasterWork> I would go for just two tones of blue
[17:44] <ochosi> ah, ok, that was a optical illusion then
[17:44] <knome> ochosi, the bg is a gradient
[17:45] <knome> and the whiter part is just overlay on that part
[17:45] <slickymasterWork> that third tone only appears in that slide, and some how it feels awkward
[17:46] <ochosi> knome: yup, that explains it
[17:48] <slickymasterWork> knome: has a decision been made about the image to add to the 'Make the desktop your own' slide?
[17:48] <knome> no
[17:48] <knome> feel free to discuss that as i work on an updated desktop slide looks
[17:48] <slickymasterWork> but it's going to have one?
[17:50] <ochosi> i guess something like this, but less ugly, could work :) http://cdn.xfce.org/frontpage/slider-xfwm4.jpg
[17:50] <slickymasterWork> I know that you're not a big fan on having to much images on the all slideshow, but that leaves that slide with a huge blank space, almost half of it
[17:50] <ochosi> e.g. a pink version of greybird
[17:50] <knome> ochosi, well, only if we add the color stuff to that slide :)
[17:51] <slickymasterWork> I'm sure pleia2 would agree with that pink version ;)
[17:51] <ochosi> yeah, well it would be very illustrative ;)
[17:51] <knome> i'm all for that
[17:51] <pleia2> and anti-aliased fonts
[17:52] <knome> does somebody want to draft the text for that?
[17:52] <ochosi> me too
[17:52] <slickymasterWork> knome: the text for what?
[17:53] <knome> for the color part
[17:53] <knome> and also,
[17:53] <knome> please discuss if we can get rid of the icons
[17:53] <knome> and/or move the menu text to the previous slide
[17:53] <knome> because we will need more space
[17:58] <jjfrv8> I don't know, I might be having second thoughts about moving the menulibre text to the previous slide
[17:59] <jjfrv8> maybe leave it on that slide and add another slide for the desktop theme thing
[17:59] <knome> that works as well from my POV
[17:59] <knome> i just pushed rev604
[17:59] <knome> check the desktop slide :)
[17:59] <knome> slickymasterWork, you'll like it more
[17:59] <slickymasterWork> I'm inclined to jjfrv8's opinion tbh
[17:59]  * slickymasterWork is still pulling it :P
[18:00] <jjfrv8> ooh, yeah
[18:00]  * slickymasterWork congratulates knome 
[18:00] <knome> ok, so if we add another slide
[18:01] <knome> can we name *that* "Make the desktop your own"
[18:01] <jjfrv8> yup
[18:01] <slickymasterWork> yes, it's complete coherent with the rest of the slides
[18:01] <knome> and the current one something like "Your computer, your data"
[18:01] <knome> (not that, but you get the idea)
[18:01] <jjfrv8> something like that, yeah
[18:01]  * slickymasterWork agrees
[18:02] <ochosi> mm, also like it
[18:04] <knome> pushed rev605
[18:05] <slickymasterWork> what abot "Put your personal label in your computer"?
[18:05] <slickymasterWork> s/abot7about
[18:05] <knome> slickymasterWork, sounds like a long title :)
[18:05] <knome> and might be a problem with translations
[18:05] <slickymasterWork> ok
[18:05] <knome> ochosi, want to draft the text for the theme customizing slide?
[18:06] <knome> who wants to take a new screenshot of the whiskermenu?
[18:06] <slickymasterWork> I can do it
[18:06] <knome> ochosi, just to make sure, when do the final settings land for whiskermenu, or did they land already?
[18:06] <slickymasterWork> with the default favorites?
[18:06] <knome> ok, so any ideas what to put in the "personalize" slide?
[18:06] <knome> as an image, that is
[18:06] <knome> slickymasterWork, yep, all defaults
[18:07] <jjfrv8> don't we want one of mugshot at least?
[18:07] <slickymasterWork> that's was what I was going to ask?
[18:08] <Unit193> ochosi: Ah, good plan.
[18:09] <knome> ok, then take a shot of Mugshot with some fake, generic data maybe?
[18:09] <knome> i would think that's enough for the slide
[18:11] <slickymasterWork> knome: check your email
[18:12] <jjfrv8> I had one once when there were some default images for mugshot. whatever happened to them?
[18:12] <knome> slickymasterWork, so no favorites?
[18:13] <slickymasterWork> did I take the wrong one :P
[18:13] <slickymasterWork> my bad
[18:13] <knome> hehe
[18:13] <slickymasterWork> give a sec
[18:13] <knome> also, wondering about slickymaster
[18:13] <knome> maybe use "Xubuntu User" :P
[18:13] <knome> (yeah i know that involves creating a new user)
[18:13] <slickymasterWork> I'm doin' it
[18:14] <knome> thanks
[18:14] <ochosi> sry, was afk
[18:14] <elfy> so - how's it going - anything I can do to help?
[18:14] <brainwash> luckily creating a new user via users-admin won't result in a segfault anymore :D
[18:14] <ochosi> whiskermenu settings will land when micahg merges them
[18:14] <knome> are we now happy with the slides we have?
[18:14] <slickymasterWork> brainwash: :) 
[18:14] <knome> or do we want to add new ones?
[18:14] <elfy> ochosi: I had a quick look at the draft - you want me to look at the wording?
[18:14] <slickymasterWork> I haven't had a chance to see your last rev knome 
[18:15] <slickymasterWork> :P
[18:15] <ochosi> elfy: why not, also, if you think that some aspect is missing, feel free to point it out
[18:15] <elfy> okeydoke
[18:15] <knome> slickymasterWork, basically just added a new empty slide for "customize"
[18:16] <slickymasterWork> and changed the tittle of the previously "Make the desktop your own" slide
[18:16] <knome> yep
[18:16] <slickymasterWork> are we gooing with the personalize...?
[18:17] <knome> that's a different question
[18:17] <knome> what i'm asking now if we are happy with the slides composition
[18:17] <knome> or if we want more/less slides
[18:17] <slickymasterWork> I'm happy
[18:17] <ochosi> knome: i guess the text will depend on what exactly we put on the "make the desktop..." slide
[18:18] <knome> ochosi, you mean the "personalize" ?
[18:18] <knome> the current slides stay as they are
[18:18] <elfy> it's personalise ... ;)
[18:18] <knome> the new slide is anything you want to mention
[18:18] <knome> elfy, not in en_US
[18:18] <elfy> :p
[18:18] <knome> so, eh, i'll expect everybody is happy with the slides
[18:19] <ochosi> knome: elfy is having trouble with his keyboard-layout, you know ;D
[18:19] <knome> #subtopic Review artwork
[18:19] <knome> are we okay with the first slide?
[18:19] <knome> artwork-wise, remember
[18:19] <knome> or do we want a new image?
[18:20] <slickymasterWork> it's good for me
[18:20] <knome> pleia2, are you sleeping?
[18:20] <ochosi> apart from the contrast issue on the logo, yep
[18:20] <pleia2> knome: working
[18:21] <knome> ok, desktop slide
[18:21] <jjfrv8> +1
[18:21] <ochosi> +1
[18:21] <knome> the panel has a dragger
[18:21] <knome> or whatever that is called
[18:21] <knome> do we have it in the final release?
[18:21] <ochosi> dragger?
[18:21] <knome> from which you can move the panel
[18:22] <knome> or then it's just a visible separator
[18:22] <knome> handle...
[18:22] <knome> right to the logo
[18:22] <ochosi> it's just the handle from the windowlist
[18:22] <jjfrv8> Don't think it's unlocked by default
[18:22] <slickymasterWork> +1
[18:22] <ochosi> we'll have that by default
[18:22] <knome> okay
[18:22] <slickymasterWork> knome: sent
[18:22] <knome> so the image is okay?
[18:22] <knome> slickymasterWork, thanks
[18:22] <knome> or do we want another open app
[18:22] <knome> that doesn't have focus
[18:23] <knome> might get a bit cluttered
[18:23] <ochosi> yeah
[18:23] <jjfrv8> that might go better with the middle part text thing
[18:23] <ochosi> i think at that width it's ok
[18:23] <jjfrv8> but it's okay as is
[18:23] <knome> ok, let's keepit
[18:24] <knome> whiskermenu slide
[18:24] <knome> slickymasterWork just sent me a new shot
[18:24] <knome> so that's good
[18:24] <knome> personalize
[18:24] <knome> so, a mugshot shot?
[18:24] <slickymasterWork> I was doing that
[18:24] <knome> good, so it's in order
[18:24] <knome> do we wish to keep the icons?
[18:25] <knome> and, is menulibre "Main menu" ?
[18:25] <jjfrv8> if we do, I think we should show the path
[18:25] <knome> or something else
[18:25] <jjfrv8> "Menu Editor"
[18:25] <ochosi> it's "Menu Editor"
[18:25] <ochosi> "Main Menu" == alacarte
[18:25] <knome> ok
[18:25] <knome> good to get that sorted out then ;)
[18:25] <knome> so we ok to drop the paths back?
[18:25] <jjfrv8> +1
[18:26] <slickymasterWork> knome: in the mugshot screenshot, do you want the data fields filled?
[18:26] <ochosi> "drop paths back"?
[18:26] <knome> ochosi, we used to have full app paths
[18:26] <ochosi> yeah
[18:26] <ochosi>  i know
[18:26] <knome> ochosi, now we don't, we only have the app icon and app name
[18:26] <ochosi> yup, that's ok i think
[18:26] <knome> slickymasterWork, yeah, use firstname Xubuntu lastname User 
[18:26] <knome> no need to fill everything
[18:27] <knome> it can be a "work in progress"
[18:27] <knome> ok, so the new "Make the desktop your own"
[18:27] <ochosi> so "drop back" = "drop"?
[18:27] <knome> ochosi, "drop back" = "drop back in place"
[18:27] <slickymasterWork> any images in the Image button?
[18:27] <jjfrv8> ochosi, did mugshot lose the "Select from stock" option for the image?
[18:27] <ochosi> knome: so you wanna re-add the paths?
[18:27] <knome> slickymasterWork, better to leave without
[18:27] <knome> ochosi, i'm asking if we should do that for that slide, yeah
[18:27] <ochosi> jjfrv8: no, still has it here
[18:28] <ochosi> knome: ah, yeah, maybe
[18:28] <knome> the other option is:
[18:28] <ochosi> knome: cause they're not in the toplevel menu
[18:28] <knome> add a new paragraph that says "You can find both of these tools in the Settings Manager"
[18:28] <knome> or sth
[18:28] <knome> but i think i'd rather keep the icons
[18:29] <knome> another option is
[18:29] <knome> add mugshot to favorites
[18:29] <knome> so any new user is given the possibility to fill in the details ASAP
[18:29] <ochosi> nope
[18:29] <knome> haha
[18:29] <knome> okay
[18:29] <knome> i'll just add the paths back
[18:29] <ochosi> the thing is that stuff from the settings-manager can't be shown in whisker easily
[18:30] <knome> right
[18:30] <ochosi> same is true for the appmenu
[18:30] <ochosi> and appfinder
[18:30] <slickymasterWork> sent knome 
[18:30] <knome> slickymasterWork, thanks
[18:30] <knome> ok, the "MAKE THE DESKTOP..." slide
[18:30] <ochosi> i talked to gottcode about adding that to whiskermenu though
[18:30] <knome> who wants to take care of the slide text, shot?
[18:30] <knome> ochosi, could you take care of the shot?
[18:30] <ochosi> so it might be possible in the near future, most likely not in 14.04 though
[18:30] <ochosi> knome: yeah, what should that one show?
[18:31] <knome> ochosi, also, would you draft the text if i asked nicely?
[18:31] <knome> well, depends on the text.. :>
[18:31] <knome> i guess mention the ability to change theme colors
[18:31] <ochosi> yeah, possibly not tonight, but generally speaking, okayish
[18:31] <knome> and generally speak about things found in the settings manager
[18:31] <knome> regarding customizing looks
[18:31] <ochosi> that sounds like a lot
[18:31] <knome> it's kind of your 15 minutes in the fame :P
[18:31] <knome> so you can select what to talk about
[18:32] <knome> what are the looks-customizability highlights for xubuntu (14.04) ?
[18:32] <knome> write about that.
[18:32] <knome> then take a screenshot that goes with that content
[18:32] <knome> pink greybird sounds good to me
[18:33] <knome> (pink resonates well with the blue)
[18:33] <slickymasterWork> we'er making pleia2's day
[18:33] <slickymasterWork> *we're
[18:33] <knome> next!
[18:33] <knome> "Ready to go!" -slide
[18:33] <knome> artwork-wise, we happy?
[18:34] <knome> bolding looks more logical now
[18:34] <ochosi> hmkay, will try
[18:34] <knome> ochosi, feel free to ask for help if you need some
[18:34] <ochosi> the pink is actually a lot more subtle than you'd think
[18:34] <knome> ochosi, yep.
[18:34] <knome> ochosi, make it fuchsia ;)
[18:34] <jjfrv8> not artwork, but I don't like the "for your pleasure" phrase. But I can't think of an alternative that's succinct.
[18:35] <slickymasterWork> without saying that it could be changed, nevertheless it's the poor parent of them all, in visual terms
[18:35] <knome> jjfrv8, let's talk about content nitpicking after the artwork review ;)
[18:35] <jjfrv8> k
[18:35] <knome> slickymasterWork, yeah, but it's ought to be a boring slide ;)
[18:36] <ochosi> knome: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-2014-03-14-193547.php
[18:36] <ochosi> what's the hex-value of fuchsia?
[18:36] <slickymasterWork> can't the font in the icons descriptions be bigger? (but not too big)
[18:36] <knome> ochosi, #ff00ff
[18:37] <slickymasterWork> knome: ^^
[18:37] <slickymasterWork> what I asked
[18:37] <ochosi> OUCH
[18:37] <knome> ochosi, you said pink is too subtle!
[18:37] <slickymasterWork> someone dial 991 for ochosi 
[18:38] <ochosi> http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-2014-03-14-193753.php
[18:38] <ochosi> it's not the pink, it's the change in selected-bg-color that is subtle
[18:38] <knome> those shots look good.
[18:39] <ochosi> yeah, i think those two could work
[18:39] <knome> definitely
[18:39] <ochosi> not sure i can highlight more than one app/option to customize in the screenshots
[18:39] <knome> nah, that's fine IMO
[18:41] <knome> slickymasterWork, checkout rev607
[18:41] <knome> others, same
[18:41] <knome> app icon text is not slightly bigger
[18:41] <jjfrv8> brb
[18:42] <slickymasterWork> while pulling it, what you guys think of "Your imprint in your computer" instead of "Personalize your computer"?
[18:42] <ochosi> "imprint" sounds a bit cumbersome
[18:43] <slickymasterWork> yes, knome. It's better
[18:44] <slickymasterWork> it's not so monotonous
[18:44] <knome> ok, so happy with the artwork on that slide now?
[18:44] <ochosi> darn, i gotta go... :/
[18:44] <slickymasterWork> I am
[18:44] <knome> ochosi, can you spare 5mins?
[18:45] <knome> "Help & Support" slide
[18:45] <knome> do we want any artwork there?
[18:45] <ochosi> yeah, it's a bit too much text maybe
[18:45] <knome> proposals?
[18:45] <slickymasterWork> agree
[18:46] <ochosi> adding a single icon to the "live support" bubble could be enough
[18:46] <knome> not the "new thing"
[18:46] <knome> okay
[18:46] <knome> so a blue question bubble?
[18:46] <knome> or something else
[18:46] <knome> a speech bubble?
[18:46] <ochosi> either something that reflects "live" or just use the help (?) icon from the icon theme
[18:46] <knome> ochosi, propose me something before monday
[18:46] <slickymasterWork> I would go for the help icon theme
[18:46] <ochosi> hm, not sure, alredady two huge bubbles on the next slide
[18:47] <knome> ochosi, well that's the next question...
[18:47] <knome> "Thanks" slide
[18:47] <knome> want to change the art?
[18:47] <slickymasterWork> I think that's a good one
[18:47] <ochosi> yeah, i'm not a huge fan
[18:47] <slickymasterWork> wouldn't touch it
[18:47] <knome> it's getting a bit old.
[18:47] <slickymasterWork> I like it
[18:47] <ochosi> but my problem is i'm away until monday
[18:47] <knome> ochosi, oh right.
[18:47] <knome> well on monday then
[18:47] <ochosi> so i cant really get anything done until then
[18:47] <knome> or latest tuesday
[18:48] <knome> we need to get this in before thu
[18:48] <knome> and since we don't have uploaders in the team, i can't expect others to upload at the last minute :)
[18:48] <ochosi> yeah
[18:48] <knome> maybe we should look at that on monday with ochosi
[18:48] <ochosi> well i'll try to take care of my slide
[18:48] <knome> i'll try to come up with something during the weekend
[18:49] <ochosi> add the help-icon meanwhile to the pen-ultimate slide
[18:49] <knome> so to say, try to have a proposal we can agree on
[18:49] <ochosi> so we have it there as fallback
[18:49] <ochosi> hah
[18:49] <ochosi> fun thing to say
[18:49] <ochosi> anyhoo, seeya
[18:49] <knome> well yeah...
[18:49] <knome> see you and have fun! :)
[18:49] <ochosi> will do :)
[18:49] <ochosi> u2
[18:49] <slickymasterWork> cy ochosi 
[18:50] <knome> ok, so the artwork is coming along
[18:50] <knome> #subtopic Content review
[18:50] <slickymasterWork> knome: 'Personalize your computer' -> 'Sign your computer'
[18:50] <knome> sounds like signing up :/
[18:50] <knome> or signing off
[18:51] <slickymasterWork> meh
[18:51] <knome> shall we do a quick review
[18:51] <knome> 1) Welcome to Xubuntu
[18:51] <knome> to me, that slide is a bit dry
[18:52] <knome> and has some wonky text
[18:52] <knome> "the desktop will look much the same"
[18:52] <knome> -much ?
[18:52] <knome> at least...
[18:52] <knome> or something
[18:52] <knome> do anybody else find that slide dry?
[18:52] <knome> it's our first impression!
[18:52] <slickymasterWork> yeah, that much doesn't make any sense
[18:53] <knome> i think the sharing part would be best on the last slide
[18:53] <knome> and said in a different way
[18:53] <knome> the "if you are" -text could be in a bubble
[18:53] <knome> and bottom -aligned
[18:54] <knome> slickymasterWork, want to talk with me about the welcome slide either sat or sun?
[18:54] <knome> to not waste too much time now
[18:54] <slickymasterWork> sun
[18:54] <jjfrv8> back
[18:54] <slickymasterWork> I'm not sure how my sat is going to be
[18:54] <knome> sun works
[18:54] <knome> ok, the desktop slide
[18:55] <knome> anything we want to change?
[18:55] <jjfrv8> nah
[18:55] <slickymasterWork> yes
[18:55] <slickymasterWork> :P
[18:55] <knome> (i'm consdering all merge proposals done before Tue, so no need to know exactly now)
[18:55] <knome> if there is a slight change, just propose it
[18:55] <slickymasterWork> "... single, multipurpose panel..." -> "... single, multipurpose, panel..."
[18:55] <knome> if we want to do a big overhaul, then say now ;)
[18:55] <knome> yeah yeah, do a MP ;)
[18:56] <knome> "keep track" -slide
[18:56] <knome> any need to edit the text?
[18:56] <slickymasterWork> just put multiproposal between comas
[18:56] <knome> ok ok :P
[18:56] <slickymasterWork> *multipurpose
[18:56] <knome> done
[18:56] <knome> will push that later
[18:56] <knome> but "keep track"
[18:56] <knome> anything we want to change?
[18:57] <slickymasterWork> nopes
[18:57] <knome> pleia2, as you were interested in this
[18:57] <slickymasterWork> I like it now (finally)
[18:57] <knome> do we want to note this is a new feature in 14.04 and that one can revert to the old one?
[18:57] <slickymasterWork> I wouldn't
[18:57] <knome> the text looks good to me :)
[18:57] <jjfrv8> that might be a can of worms, the revert part
[18:57] <knome> heh
[18:58] <knome> okay
[18:58] <knome> let's keep ot
[18:58] <knome> *it
[18:58] <knome> "personalize"
[18:58] <jjfrv8> yeah, text looks okay
[18:58] <knome> do we want to change the text?
[18:58] <knome> (apart from david wanting to change the title)
[18:58] <slickymasterWork> I think we can came up with a better tittle
[18:58] <knome> yep
[18:58] <slickymasterWork> lol
[18:58] <knome> that's okay for a merge proposal
[18:59] <jjfrv8> well we say "image of your choice" but screenshot won't have a custom image?
[18:59] <knome> jjfrv8, no, but it'll show the spot where you can change that ;)
[18:59] <knome> the documentation goes through that more closely anyway
[19:00] <slickymasterWork> and that way everyone will know that it's up to them to came up with the image
[19:00] <jjfrv8> hmm
[19:00] <knome> jjfrv8, the problem with the custom image is "what to show"
[19:00] <knome> tbh, the default stock images are ugly...
[19:00]  * slickymasterWork is now breaking some rules about not smoking at work
[19:00] <knome> D:
[19:00] <knome> omg
[19:00] <jjfrv8> okay, not a biggie
[19:01] <slickymasterWork> the all text is goof in that slide. jjfrv8 has done a good work on it
[19:01] <knome> :)
[19:01] <slickymasterWork> s/goof/good
[19:01] <knome> hehe
[19:01] <knome> goofy text, right...
[19:01] <jjfrv8> :)
[19:01] <knome> "ready to go"
[19:02] <jjfrv8> "for your pleasure" -1
[19:02] <knome> "for your pleasure" -replacement is ok with MP, unless you have an idea now
[19:02] <knome> in which case i can drop it right in
[19:02] <slickymasterWork> -1 also
[19:02] <jjfrv8> nah, still pondering
[19:02] <knome> yeah, no pleasure using those apps
[19:02] <knome> i guess that slide is okay
[19:02] <slickymasterWork> for your convenience 
[19:02] <slickymasterWork> ?
[19:02] <knome> yeah
[19:02] <knome> sounds good
[19:02] <jjfrv8> !
[19:02] <knome> jjfrv8, you fine with that?
[19:03] <jjfrv8> that'll work!
[19:03] <knome> yep
[19:03] <knome> will push with next commit
[19:03] <knome> anything else in that slide?
[19:03] <jjfrv8> nope
[19:03] <knome> ok,
[19:03] <knome> "help" slide
[19:03] <slickymasterWork> that's a doomed slide :P
[19:03] <knome> anything in the content for that?
[19:03] <knome> slickymasterWork, the help one? :P
[19:03] <slickymasterWork> not the help one
[19:03] <knome> lol
[19:03] <knome> slickymasterWork, what do you think is so doomed in the apps one
[19:04] <slickymasterWork> it's monotonous and lacks some kind of an outstanding spark 
[19:05] <knome> lol
[19:05] <knome> be in touch with me if you figure out what that is
[19:05] <knome> so... the help slide :P
[19:05] <slickymasterWork> but I agree that there's little to work with
[19:05] <knome> text okay in that?
[19:05] <jjfrv8> +1
[19:05] <slickymasterWork> yes, I think the text is good
[19:06] <knome> nice.
[19:06] <knome> what about the thanks slide?
[19:06] <slickymasterWork> I like the artwork on that one, being old an all
[19:06] <jjfrv8> I'm good with the slide
[19:06] <knome> if not else, we need to rethink the contrast
[19:06] <knome> but i'll think about that
[19:07] <slickymasterWork> but we're porting the share part from the first one into this one
[19:07] <knome> yeah
[19:07] <knome> nothing in *this* needs a change though, so that's fine
[19:07] <slickymasterWork> agree
[19:08] <knome> #endmeeting
[19:08] <meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Mar 14 19:08:03 2014 UTC.  
[19:08] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2014/xubuntu-devel.2014-03-14-17.00.moin.txt
[19:08] <knome> huhu
[19:08] <knome> that was two hours
[19:08] <knome> plus some. :)
[19:08] <slickymasterWork> and it's past your dinner time, isn't it
[19:08] <jjfrv8> time flies
[19:08] <knome> that happens ;)
[19:08] <slickymasterWork> so knome do you want to fix an hour for sunday?
[19:09] <knome> anything works
[19:09] <knome> it doesn't sound like it's a big task
[19:09] <knome> and i should be around
[19:09] <slickymasterWork> I'll be home from 17:00 UTC ->
[19:09] <knome> (wife is at work, so i'm doomed to be online) :P
[19:09] <knome> oki
[19:09] <knome> that sounds good
[19:09] <slickymasterWork> I still want to catch some waves
[19:09] <knome> yep, you should
[19:10] <slickymasterWork> I'll probably be here after dinner, today
[19:10] <knome> yeah, that might work as well
[19:10] <knome> i need to run now, but will be back later
[19:10] <knome> see you! :)
[19:10] <slickymasterWork> cy knome 
[19:10] <jjfrv8> thanks, knome. Let me know about the docs MP
[19:11] <slickymasterWork> jjfrv8: see today's morning backlog. I've proposed a couple of tweaks to knome's start page of the -docs
[19:12] <jjfrv8> k, saw it but hadn't had a chance to really look at it.
[19:12] <slickymasterWork> ok, have to go now, will be back later on
[19:12] <slickymasterWork> cy
[19:12] <jjfrv8> me too, bye.
[20:37] <brainwash> ali1234: what do you think.. could xfwm4 only check if a window is resizable (already implemented) and if yes, show the maximize button? basically ignore _NET_WM_ACTION_MAXIMIZE_{HORZ,VERT}
[20:37] <ali1234> sure
[20:37] <ali1234> all the infrastructure for it is already there
[20:38] <ali1234> there is a bug report for it too
[20:38] <brainwash> want to get rid of bug 1177116 :)
[20:38] <ali1234> feature request*
[20:39] <ali1234> have a look in frame.c
[20:39] <ali1234> there is a big function that decides which buttons to draw
[20:39] <ali1234> just tweak the logic there
[20:39] <brainwash> yeah, check client.h
[20:39] <ali1234> it should be easy
[20:39] <ali1234> but i think there was resistance to fixing it for some reason
[20:40] <brainwash> why?
[20:40] <ali1234> i can't remember
[20:40] <ali1234> i think because some windows ask for no maximize button even though you can actually maximize them
[20:40] <ali1234> and someone somewhere likes to maximize those windows
[20:42] <brainwash> right, we need some test cases
[20:43] <brainwash> the modern wms (or DEs) seem to hide it
[20:43] <ali1234> gnome doesn't have any maximize buttons at all
[20:43] <brainwash> openbox is behaves like xfwm4
[20:43] <brainwash> oh
[20:44] <brainwash> -is
[20:44] <ali1234> xfwm has bigger problems anyway
[20:45] <brainwash> maybe should look at it from another perspective, why do the dialog type windows set the maximize hints?
[20:45] <ali1234> no idea. you'd have to look through the support libraries
[20:45] <brainwash> if they also cannot be resized
[20:45] <ali1234> like libxfce4ui
[20:46] <ali1234> there's a lot of bugs in those
[20:46] <brainwash> so it's xfce specific?
[20:46] <brainwash> should be X
[20:46] <ali1234> probably not
[20:47] <ali1234> but so much code gets copy pasted, who knows where it came from?
[20:50] <brainwash> mmh
[20:50] <brainwash> maybe mark the report as "wishlist" then?
[20:50] <ali1234> yes
[20:51] <ali1234> it doesn't really cause a problem
[20:51] <brainwash> no, but there is something not working properly under the hood
[20:52] <ali1234> well, as i said, take a look at frame.c...
[20:52] <ali1234> the function is crazy
[20:53] <ali1234> i don't think this is worth trying to fix this late in the cycle
[20:53] <ali1234> that code is very fragile
[20:54] <brainwash> I thought of adjusting http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfwm4/tree/src/client.h#n216
[20:55] <brainwash> and if we can fix it, it will go upstream eventually
[20:55] <ali1234> oh no... noo.... no don't touch those macros
[20:55] <ali1234> just..... don't
[20:55] <brainwash> :/
[20:56] <brainwash> u can't touch this
[20:56] <ali1234> that doesn't control whether or not the button is drawn anyway
[20:57] <ali1234> or maybe it does
[20:57] <brainwash> it's only a check
[20:57] <brainwash> ofc it does
[20:58] <ali1234> got a test case then?
[20:58] <ali1234> what kind of window has a maximize button but can't be maximized?
[20:58] <brainwash> about dialogs
[20:59] <brainwash> most of them
[21:00] <brainwash> and the (x)ubuntu installer :D
[21:00] <ali1234> but they have no minimize
[21:00] <brainwash> true
[21:00] <ali1234> they have a resize border too, even though you can't resize them
[21:00] <ali1234> so that's the problem
[21:01] <ali1234> XFWM_FLAG_HAS_RESIZE | XFWM_FLAG_IS_RESIZABLE <- why are there two flags?
[21:02] <brainwash> no clue
[21:02] <brainwash> so the dialog windows don't set _NET_WM_ACTION_MINIMIZE
[21:02] <ali1234> i bet that's related
[21:03] <brainwash> but they do set _NET_WM_ACTION_MAXIMIZE_{HORZ,VERT}
[21:03] <ali1234> well, you need to pick through the code and find out how the WM hints map to xfwm flags
[21:04] <ali1234> it's not always logical... at all
[21:05] <brainwash> it's an interesting problem
[21:05] <ali1234> so xfwm actually appears to set those atoms
[21:05] <brainwash> and we don't even have an upstream report yet
[21:05] <ali1234> http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfwm4/tree/src/netwm.c#n1170
[21:06] <ali1234> this stuff is completely nuts
[21:06] <brainwash> yes, but after the actual check, or?
[21:06] <ali1234> it's years upon years of hacks
[21:07] <ali1234> xfwm is setting wm hints so that the next window manager that comes along knows how to deal with the windows left behind
[21:07] <ali1234> like if you do --replace
[21:07] <ali1234> so you can't really infer anything from that
[21:07] <ali1234> this is why people want to replace X11
[21:07] <brainwash> oh
[21:07] <ali1234> unfortunately the new thing isn't any better
[21:09] <brainwash> ok, maybe I'll do some more research, but I've suddenly lost some of my motivation to properly fix this
[21:09] <ali1234> http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfwm4/tree/src/client.c#n935 is probably your culprit
[21:10] <ali1234> compare that with latest metacity version, they've probably fixed it since it got copy pasted
[21:11] <ali1234> ugh... why the pointless negation?
[21:11] <ali1234> that's not not confusing at all
[21:12] <brainwash> right, was thinking the same, we need to check what other wms do
[21:12] <ali1234> that is where HAS_RESIZE comes from
[21:12] <ali1234> but what about RESIZABLE?
[21:13] <ali1234> ah... so if a window is below a certain size, it is always "RESIZABLE"
[21:13] <ali1234> http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfwm4/tree/src/client.c#n1147
[21:13] <ali1234> but why?
[21:14] <brainwash> :D
[21:14] <brainwash> looking at the same line
[21:15] <brainwash> this code is trying to brainwash me
[21:21] <ali1234> so, xfwm never looks at the value of NET_WM_ACTION_MAXIMIZE_HORZ, it only ever sets it
[21:21] <ali1234> if CLIENT_CAN_MAXIMIZE_WINDOW (c)
[21:23] <ali1234> this is where git blame is handy
[21:25] <ali1234> yeah... this code is from 2004
[21:29] <brainwash> so it's try & error
[21:29] <brainwash> until it works like you want it
[21:29] <ali1234> well more like you fix this and break some other obscure thing
[21:29] <ali1234> and nobody notices for another 10 years
[21:30] <ali1234> which is also why it is the way it is
[21:31] <brainwash> but it can be fixed
[21:32] <ali1234> maybe
[21:32] <ali1234> or maybe not
[21:32] <ali1234> the EWMH has a lot of corner cases
[21:32] <ochosi> reminds of a talk by keith p about a thing they broke in X11 and nobody noticed for 5+yrs :)
[21:32] <ochosi> i remember looking into the very problem you're talking about a longer while ago
[21:33] <ochosi> frankly, it didn't seem important enough anymore after a few hours of effort
[21:33] <ali1234> best thing to do: go through the code and find the test that actually prevents the window from being resized
[21:33] <ali1234> then use that test to decide whether to show the btton, instead of the test it uses now
[21:33] <ali1234> that should be at least consistent
[21:34] <ochosi> guys, with the changes coming to gtk3 dialogs, this little maximize button looks like a poor orphan :}
[21:34] <ali1234> why?
[21:34] <ochosi> 1) button-labels are suddenly baseline-aligned, so they look totally unbalanced if you use ButtonImages=1
[21:35] <ochosi> 2) buttons in gtkdialogs don't have any padding between them anymore
[21:35] <ali1234> what does that have to do with the window borders?
[21:35] <ochosi> i thought we were talking about the maximize button in gtkdialogs?
[21:35] <ali1234> no, we are talking about the maximize button in the window decorations
[21:35] <ali1234> which aren't even drawn with gtk
[21:35] <ochosi> yeah, i know, but that is just a minor visual nuisance
[21:36] <ochosi> there's no technical connection, obviously there's no connection between xfwm4 and gtk3
[21:36] <ochosi> my point was that this problem of the maximize button is much less grave then the visual inconsistencies that will hit us with gtk3.12
[21:37] <ochosi> in e.g. gtkdialogs
[21:37] <ali1234> yes
[21:37] <brainwash> the visual aspect does not bother me, only the logic behind it
[21:38] <ochosi> yeah, but as ali1234 said, i don't think there's so much logic, lots of it is "tradition"
[21:38] <brainwash> why show a maximize button, if you cannot maximize the button
[21:38] <brainwash> the window, woops
[21:38] <ali1234> well, have a go at fixing it then
[21:39] <ali1234> worst that will happen is you have to restart xfwm :)
[21:39] <ochosi> huhu
[21:39] <ali1234> but this EWMH stuff will make you crazy
[21:39] <brainwash> sure, still better than dealing with random thunar segfaults xD
[21:39] <ochosi> so anyway, i'm totally supporting getting this fixed, but i'm just saying we may have bigger fish to fry
[21:39] <ali1234> tip: src/xfwm4 --replace ; xfwm4
[21:39] <ali1234> then if it's borken, just press ctrl-c
[21:40] <ochosi> +1
[21:41] <ali1234> ochosi: what is the plan for stock icons etc in dialogs?
[21:41] <ali1234> gtk3 complains about them endlessly
[21:44] <ochosi> stock items are gone
[21:44] <ochosi> they have been deprecated
[21:44] <ochosi> as have been GActions (if i'm not mistaken)
[21:45] <knome> ochosi, hai
[21:45] <ochosi> which is why we have lots and lots of build-warnings in parole suddenly
[21:45] <ali1234> yeah, so what are we going to replace them with?
[21:45] <ochosi> nothing i guess
[21:45] <ochosi> gtkimagemenuitems are next i think
[21:45] <knome> ochosi, do you approve this direction? http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/trusty_slideshow/slide_whisker.png
[21:45] <ali1234> nothing?
[21:45] <ochosi> ali1234: app developers have to implement their stuff without stock, all by themselves
[21:46] <ochosi> so we can hope they're good at copy-pasting or we'll end up with lots of inconsistency
[21:46] <ali1234> so what are we going to do with lixfce4ui?
[21:46] <ochosi> knome: 1) hide the "switch user" please, that'll be hidden in the release too (doesn't make sense anymore)
[21:47] <knome> oh boo
[21:47] <knome> i was talking about the cut-work
[21:47] <ali1234> knome: can you resize it so that the categories on right fill up the space nicely?
[21:47] <ochosi> knome: the categories should be 16px (i.e. smallest)
[21:47] <ochosi> then you also get more of them
[21:47] <ochosi> other than that, i think it's cool
[21:47] <ochosi> better than before definitely
[21:47] <knome> maybe we should get a new screenshot then ;)
[21:48] <ochosi> i'd make the cut more obvious though
[21:48] <ochosi> maybe a zig-zag line?
[21:48] <ochosi> like this it looks a bit broken at first
[21:48] <ali1234> hmm... why have the cut at all?
[21:49] <ochosi> ali1234: not sure how we can deal with libxfce4ui and gtk3 > 3.10
[21:49] <ali1234> well, we just need to replace the stock icons with something not-stock
[21:49] <ochosi> ali1234: there's the upside of waiting so we don't have to "follow" gtk3 development, but then again it means not having *any* influence on the direction gtk3 is taking
[21:49] <knome> micahg, ping!
[21:49] <ali1234> afaik all the icons still exist, they just have different names
[21:49] <ochosi> yeah
[21:49] <ochosi> the icons still have standard names
[21:49] <knome> ochosi, i'll try to get the new defaults in so we can get a new screenshot by the beginning of next week.
[21:50] <ochosi> and you can use the standard labels
[21:50] <ochosi> knome: thanks!
[21:50] <ali1234> the gtk doc has a list of "replace this with that" but it doesn't cover all cases
[21:50] <ali1234> would be nice if we had something similar for xfce
[21:50] <ali1234> hint hint
[21:50] <ochosi> ali1234: basically they said that stock items also created a translation problem etc...
[21:50] <ochosi> yeah, i think we should really start to port xfce to gtk3
[21:50] <ochosi> 1) release 4.12, and then immediately start porting
[21:51] <ochosi> but with all the stuff they're deprecating it's a bit annoying already to choose a minimum version to rely on..
[21:51] <ali1234> for stuff like gtkimagemenu we can just create xfceimagemenu
[21:51] <ochosi> using gtk3.6 is totally a bad idea meanwhile
[21:51] <ochosi> yeah, we can, but it'll look totally inconsistent
[21:51] <ali1234> images and menuitems still exist
[21:52] <ochosi> only xfce apps will have imagemenuitems then
[21:52] <ali1234> and containers
[21:52] <ochosi> anyway, i'm a bit concerned about all the mess gtk3 brings along
[21:52] <ochosi> i mean visually
[21:52] <ali1234> well i wouldn't suggest using it in all applications
[21:52] <ochosi> tons of inconsistency
[21:52] <ali1234> only stuff like the panel menu
[21:52] <ochosi> yeah
[21:52] <ochosi> true that
[21:52] <ali1234> that will also fix the bug where you can't turn off icons in menus in apps and still have them in the panel menu
[21:53] <ochosi> yup, that could be a good way to go
[21:54] <ochosi> i think it would be interesting to start porting thunar
[21:54] <ochosi> iirc nick has started that before
[21:54] <ali1234> gtk3 apps will look inconsistent anyway due to headerbars
[21:54] <ochosi> yeah, the whole gnome-design thingy
[21:55] <ochosi> so it'd be interesting to pick that up and see whether the exo-iconview can be dropped entirely
[21:55] <ochosi> (maybe exo can go away entirely)
[21:55] <ali1234> thunar is huge...
[21:55] <ochosi> i know, but it's also a good "benchmark"
[21:56] <ali1234> i would rather get the core stuff done first... panel, xfwm, xfdesktop
[21:56] <ali1234> xfsettings should be trivial
[21:56] <ochosi> for the panel there was also a branch
[21:56] <ali1234> but not the config panels
[21:56] <ochosi> exactly
[21:56] <ochosi> the config-panels involve all components :)
[21:56] <ali1234> but those are all libxfce4ui
[21:58] <ochosi> well i dunno, isn't xfwm4 also huge and annoying to port?
[21:58] <ali1234> hmm... not really, because it doesn't use much gtk
[21:58] <ali1234> it's more gdk/cairo/xlib
[21:59] <ali1234> also it's nowhere near as much code as thunar, which is just massive
[21:59] <ali1234> thunar is probably more code than panel, xfwm, xfdesktop combined
[21:59] <ochosi> yeah, but the cairo-related stuff would have to be updated a lot i guess
[21:59] <ali1234> the cairo stuff is really simple blitting ops though
[21:59] <ochosi> for xfwm4 i see the least benefit of gtk3 actually
[22:00] <ali1234> yeah
[22:00] <ochosi> apart from apps being able to request "dark variants"
[22:00] <ochosi> there's really nothing much there
[22:00] <ochosi> apps at least get stuff like the nice scrolling effect of gtk3
[22:00] <ali1234> i don't really care about apps
[22:00] <ochosi> not sure what it's called, maybe "kinetic"
[22:00] <ali1234> i don't even use that many of them
[22:01] <sergio-br2> hey brainwash
[22:01] <sergio-br2> fine?
[22:02] <sergio-br2> i'm not having anymore this rigth tapping issue
[22:02] <ali1234> i think mousepad is the only one i use
[22:02] <sergio-br2> but i didn't install your ppa
[22:02] <ali1234> and thunar
[22:03] <ochosi> hm, mousepad should be far less code and hence much easier to port
[22:03] <ochosi> and also less problematic, as it's not core
[22:03] <ochosi> that's the one good thing about xfce, it's not really much of a problem to port stuff step-by-step
[22:04] <ochosi> panel is a bit annoying with goodies and plugins being gtk2 when the panel goes gtk3
[22:10] <sergio-br2> hey ochosi
[22:10] <ochosi> hey sergio-br2 
[22:10] <brainwash> we need more man power to port and test everything
[22:11] <brainwash> sergio-br2: ok, maybe you should add a comment to the bug report then
[22:11] <sergio-br2> xchat use different icon (that X default) in Alt + Tab and in the panel. Is it the expected behavior?
[22:11] <sergio-br2> already comment
[22:11] <brainwash> ok, thanks
[22:12] <ochosi> sergio-br2: many apps are like that. they hardcode their icon (or even the icon-size), nothing we can do but submit bugreports to the apps
[22:12] <sergio-br2> ahh, like synaptic...
[22:12] <sergio-br2> but unity uses the same icon. Is it its feature?
[22:13] <brainwash> we could tweak xfwm4 to use the bamf daemon :D
[22:13] <ochosi> the alt-tab dialog of unity works differently
[22:13] <ochosi> xfwm4's alt-tab dialog uses the icon set by the app
[22:13] <knome> ochosi, http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/trusty_slideshow/slide_customize.png
[22:13] <ochosi> unity uses bamf afaik
[22:13] <Unit193> Eww, bamf. :/
[22:13] <sergio-br2> maybe a wishlist?
[22:13] <ochosi> which gets icons from the desktop-file
[22:13] <ochosi> well, it's an annoying dependency
[22:14] <brainwash> why annoying?
[22:14] <ochosi> i don't see xfce-devs agreeing to adding that
[22:14] <ochosi> because it might not be available in all distros
[22:14] <brainwash> right, it's unlikely that we implement this
[22:14] <ochosi> so it'd have to be optional to say the least
[22:16] <ochosi> knome: yeah, that's pretty much like i imagined it
[22:19] <ali1234> bamf is total rubbish
[22:19] <ali1234> it never works right
[22:19] <ali1234> it's worse than nothing at all, because at least nothing is consistent
[22:20] <knome> ochosi, MENUICON » SETTINGSICON » APPICON Application, or, MENUICON » SETTINGSICON Settings Manager » APPICON Application
[22:22] <ochosi> knome: as you wish i'd say. both options are totally fine imo
[22:36] <ochosi> knome: have you pushed the "make the desktop" slide yet?
[22:39] <ochosi> ali1234: dunno, bamf works well enough in docks like plank or docky
[22:39] <ochosi> haven't really found it to be very buggy
[22:39] <brainwash> or indicator-sound
[22:39] <ali1234> i have never seen a sock that works properly
[22:40] <ali1234> or a dock either
[22:40] <ochosi> yeah, mine all have holes...
[22:40] <ali1234> not even the apple one works right
[22:40] <ochosi> guess i should cut my nails more often! :D
[22:40] <ochosi> really?
[22:40] <ochosi> that's surprising
[22:40] <ali1234> yeah, really
[22:40] <ochosi> what's not working
[22:40] <ochosi> (i've never used osx for >30mins)
[22:40] <ali1234> half of applications don't stack properly and you just get an icon for each window
[22:40] <ali1234> same thing that happens in docky, unity etc
[22:41] <ali1234> or it doesn't see the windows at all
[22:41] <ochosi> but is that a problem in bamf or apps?
[22:41] <ali1234> or completely different apps get groups for no reason (java)
[22:41] <ali1234> it is a problem in the whole concept of docks
[22:41] <ali1234> the display server only knows about windows
[22:41] <ali1234> it does not know about apps
[22:41] <ali1234> docks try to present a list of apps
[22:41] <ali1234> task bars present a list of windows
[22:41] <ali1234> that's why task bars are inherently superior to docks
[22:45] <ali1234> this is another problem of X that wayland totally doesn't address btw
[22:45] <ali1234> in wayland you'll be lucky if docky even works at all
[22:46] <ali1234> wayland is great if you don't care about any of this stuff eg because you are making a phone or a set top box
[22:47] <ali1234> because it's not forced on you in a half-assed X11 implementation... you can just ignore it
[22:47] <ali1234> but if you need to handle it... you are on your own
[22:48] <ali1234> and if you're making a third party dock like docky you are totally at the mercy of the compositor, for which there are no standards at all
[23:00] <ochosi> hmm
[23:00] <ochosi> yeah, doesn't sound nice
[23:00] <ochosi> but otoh grouping is worth-while
[23:00] <ochosi> the tasklist-plugin also allows for grouping
[23:00] <ochosi> it works differently to docky though
[23:01] <ochosi> also, grouping is less of a concern to me in alt-tab, it's more getting the right icon
[23:01] <knome> ochosi, should have.
[23:01] <knome> ochosi, how so?
[23:03] <ochosi> knome: err, sry, missing context
[23:03] <knome> :)
[23:03] <knome> 00:36  ochosi: knome: have you pushed the "make the desktop" slide yet?
[23:03] <ochosi> ah
[23:03] <ochosi> ok :)
[23:03] <ochosi> too much log in between
[23:04] <knome> i'll push a small bunch of fixes soonish
[23:04] <ochosi> ok, i'll wait then with whatever i'd push
[23:04] <knome> don't have to wait, i can merge
[23:05] <ochosi> yeah, but that's ugly in bzr
[23:05] <knome> why would you care if i do it? :)
[23:05] <ochosi> it destroys the commitlog if the settings of the repo arent nice
[23:05] <elfy> knome: I got wrapped up in a dead forum earlier - did the slideshow get 'finished' 
[23:05] <knome> elfy, not finished, but it's pretty clear what to do with it now :)
[23:05] <elfy> ok :)
[23:05] <ochosi> knome: i'm on rev608, but i don't see the changes you pasted
[23:06] <ochosi> i mean the screenshots
[23:06] <knome> ochosi, ah,
[23:06] <elfy> knome: worth grabbing it to look? 
[23:06] <knome> no, didn't upload those yet
[23:06] <knome> elfy, soonish
[23:06] <elfy> ok 
[23:06] <ochosi> elfy: i'd wait a bit longer :)
[23:06] <elfy> let me know - I'll have an unjaundiced eye 
[23:06] <ochosi> ali1234: reliable grouping would be nice, but as i said i'd be mostly interested to improve the icon-situation, cause that's one of the more prominent/important things in xfwm4's alt-tab dialog
[23:07] <elfy> which probably doesn't mean very much to you ... 
[23:07] <ochosi> ali1234: the tasklist in the panel works much better, havent looked at the diffs yet, but the two are sometimes inconsistent (i.e. showing different icons)
[23:08] <ochosi> knome: ping me when i can pull :)
[23:09] <knome> ochosi, pushed 609
[23:10] <knome> you about to push a some content for the customize slide?
[23:11] <ochosi> not yet
[23:11] <knome> aha, what then? :)
[23:12] <ochosi> well, working on >1 thing atm
[23:12] <knome> aha
[23:12] <ochosi> i can ping you before i push
[23:12] <knome> any ETA?
[23:12] <knome> should i tell elfy to pull meanwhile
[23:12] <knome> :)
[23:13]  * elfy really needs sleep 
[23:13] <knome> elfy, then go to bed :)
[23:13] <knome> we don't *need* any review today
[23:13] <elfy> waiting for canonical IS anyway :)
[23:13] <knome> tomorrow, sunday or monday is fien
[23:13] <knome> for what? :D
[23:14] <elfy> to fix bits of the forum
[23:16] <elfy> pulled rev 609
[23:16]  * elfy starts commenting ... 
[23:18] <elfy> slide 1 - I'd say 'any' in free of any fees is a bit superfluous
[23:20] <knome> elfy, ah, right, we're going to refresh the first slide completely .P
[23:20] <knome> so don't worry about that too much
[23:20] <knome> forgot to mention that
[23:20] <knome> there will also be another pretty much empty slide, dismiss that too for the moment
[23:21] <elfy> slide 2 - I like the way the 3 sections are seperated, perhaps comment in the adding and removing panels that it's for extra panels - you can't remove panel 0
[23:21] <elfy> yep ok :)
[23:22] <elfy> slide 3 - the cut menu looks better like that
[23:22] <elfy> not sure about saying you can reorder - I've not seen how to do that 
[23:23] <knome> elfy, drag and drop.
[23:23] <knome> or right click a favorite item, and order alphabetically
[23:23] <elfy> I think also that Xubuntu User should say slickymaster :p
[23:23] <elfy> aah yes- I remember now :p
[23:24] <elfy> slide 3 - screenshot is cut in this - I assume in the real thing it's not 
[23:24] <knome> hmm?
[23:24] <knome> screenshot?
[23:25] <elfy> the image of mugshot - truncated on right side
[23:25] <knome> that's expected
[23:25] <elfy> mmm - looks odd, especially given we've cut the menu one to fit in nicely 
[23:26] <knome> aha
[23:26] <elfy> if one is 'cut' to fit I would have expected to see them all like that - just an impression
[23:26] <knome> the menu is "cut" because there was important stuff we wanted to show on the bottom
[23:26] <elfy> even so 
[23:26] <knome> in this shot... not really anything worth showing
[23:26] <knome> yeah, i get it
[23:26] <knome> ochosi, comment? ^
[23:27] <elfy> just seems odd - visually to have one and not the other, just because 'we' are putting information across - users will just see the pic 
[23:28] <elfy> I assume the slide you mean is 'empty' is the make the desktop your own one
[23:28] <elfy> all I would say is maybe tone down the pink a bit at the moment :)
[23:30] <knome> ochosi, comment? ^
[23:30] <knome> and yep, the empty slide is the "make..."
[23:30] <elfy> I hope that sounds constructive :)
[23:30] <knome> sure
[23:30] <elfy> if it doesn't I mean it too :p
[23:30] <elfy> oh good
[23:31] <knome> i guess it's a fair point to make
[23:31] <knome> maybe we should ask pleia2 which kind of pink she prefers the most
[23:31] <elfy> lol
[23:31] <knome> because we've been trying to put all kind of pink things in xubuntu for two years and more
[23:31] <elfy> I particularly like the #00000 shade of pink
[23:31] <elfy> ha ha ha 
[23:31] <pleia2> :P
[23:31] <knome> and now that we are *ACTUALLY* doing it, should be something she likes
[23:31] <knome> pleia2, hello! :)
[23:31] <elfy> LOL
[23:32] <pleia2> not too bright
[23:32] <elfy> slide 6 - the what we install one - do we need to have USC in the system settings list - when we've mentioned it?
[23:32] <elfy> pleia2: is that agreeing with me :p
[23:32] <knome> elfy, *shrugh*
[23:32] <elfy> :)
[23:33] <knome> elfy, if we don't need that, then we probably shouldn't mention settings manager either
[23:33] <elfy> I guess it would look a silly list with one thing in it 
[23:33] <knome> yes, or that list deleted for good.
[23:33] <elfy> yea - but then it would look unbalanced with 2 on one side and 1 on the other
[23:34] <knome> hehe
[23:34] <knome> well it's already "unbalanced"
[23:34] <knome> i have thought of aligning the headers
[23:34] <elfy> yea, but not as much ... 
[23:34] <knome> and will probably look into that before the upload
[23:34] <elfy> I'd rather have system & settinsg there than it look lopsided
[23:35] <knome> yes, i don't think it's a bad thing to have it there
[23:36] <elfy> ok slide 7 - The Official Docs, that covers... , is shipped - maybe some commas there
[23:36] <elfy> yea agree I think with keeping them 
[23:36] <elfy> on second thoughts :)
[23:37] <knome> ultimately the goal is to be helpful for the user
[23:37] <ochosi> we can go with a smoother pink
[23:37] <ochosi> i don't mind that
[23:37] <ochosi> pleia2: why don't you suggest your favorite shade of pink?
[23:37] <elfy> so last slide - the "Thanks for taking the time with us" seems a bit odd or contrived to me 
[23:38] <elfy> pleia2: just not fluorescent - because that would be worse :p
[23:38] <elfy> ochosi: what do you think about the mugshot image being cut? 
[23:38] <knome> afaik there are no monitors which produce fluorescent colors
[23:39] <elfy> pleia2: will have one just for pink :)
[23:39] <ochosi> elfy: yeah, it's not nice. i'd have preferred to have a screenshot of lots of possible user-avatars. unfortunately the ones we ship by default are so ugly that we don't want to show them
[23:39] <elfy> ochosi: not quite what I mean - let me try and explain what I saw
[23:40] <elfy> so I see the whisker menu image - which is cut - I understand that we've done that to fit in information - but 2 slides later there is one that isn't 'cut' to fit and it just jars my eyes
[23:40] <knome> ochosi, he's referring to the right hand side being "hidden"
[23:40] <ochosi> yeah sure, i understand
[23:41] <elfy> I'd prefer to see that 'cut' to fit too - even for no other reason than to look like the other
[23:41] <elfy> would look more like we'd thought of that 
[23:42] <elfy> does that make sense?
[23:43] <ochosi> to some extent
[23:43] <ochosi> we've had this sort of "cutting" in slideshows before though
[23:43] <ochosi> so it's nothing new really
[23:43] <ochosi> brb
[23:44] <knome> yeah, and to be more exact, we've had both cut and full windows
[23:47] <elfy> knome: I'm trying to think of something to do with the Thanks wording on the last slide - might be tomorrow though :)
[23:50] <elfy> maybe something more like "We'd love to hear about your experinces with Xubuntu. You can share the on the mailing list. In the meantime, thanks for taking the time to install Xubuntu with us."
[23:50] <knome_> did i miss anything?
[23:51] <elfy> knome: you missed me saying I was looking at rewording last slide perhaps and saying it would be tomorrow - but then posting it :)
[23:51] <elfy> just after you came back
[23:52] <elfy> so - nothing of import
[23:52] <knome> your proposal sounds good
[23:52] <knome> we thought to move the "share xubuntu" part from the first slide to this last slide
[23:53] <elfy> yep - that makes sense to me 
[23:53] <elfy> without the 'any' :)
[23:53] <knome> mh
[23:53] <elfy> so last comment from me of a 'change perhaps' nature 
[23:54] <knome> probably rewritten in any case
[23:54] <elfy> yea
[23:54] <knome> i think the proposed text is better in ... nature :)
[23:54] <knome> somehow it feels more human
[23:54] <elfy> what I did ^^ ?
[23:54] <knome> yep
[23:55] <elfy> english from a rough old country english boy that'll be :)
[23:55] <knome> bollocks, some softy old brit ;)
[23:56] <elfy> Want to give something back? To find the ways that you can contribute to Xubuntu, visit the Get Involved section ... "
[23:56] <elfy> no