[00:15] <dougbb> Is this the right place to ask about 14.04 b1 problems?
[00:28] <ali1234> you want #ubuntu+1
[00:28] <dougbb> got it, thanks :)
[00:29] <ali1234> unless it's highly related to xfce
[00:29] <ali1234> then, maybe
[00:29] <dougbb> well, both of my questions are, actually :)
[00:29] <dougbb> 1) xfdesktop --reload no longer cycles the desktop wallpaper
[00:29] <dougbb> 2) trying to change the "Time And Data Settings" to use ntp, and the attempt to install it is failing "Could not install package  The necessary applications to install the package could not be found"
[00:30] <ali1234> why xfdesktop --reload cycle the wallpaper?
[00:31] <dougbb> ali1234: it has always done that if you use an image list .... according to the man page it's still supposed to work, but it doesn't
[00:31] <ali1234> the way that wallpaper works in xfdesktop has been totally rewritten to support different wallpapers on each virtual screen
[00:32] <ali1234> so it probably got broken. so report a bug please
[00:32] <dougbb> yes, I notice that it has been rewritten, and the interface is quite different
[00:32] <dougbb> Ok, where should I report it? Regular launchpad?
[00:32] <ali1234> launchpad and also bugs.xfce.org
[00:32] <ali1234> and then link the upstream report on launchpad
[00:32] <dougbb> Ok, will do
[00:33] <ali1234> make sure at least one of the reports has detailed steps how to reproduce
[00:34] <ali1234> for time and date, i assume that is using the xfce clock plugin?
[00:34] <dougbb> yeah, no worries, I have done bug reports before :)
[00:34] <dougbb> ali1234: I think so ... I'm getting to it from the Settings dialog
[00:35] <ali1234> yeah i see it
[00:35] <dougbb> Settings -> Time and Date
[00:35] <ali1234> also report that one... but only on launchpad, as i'm not sure if that's an ubuntu customization or not
[00:35] <dougbb> ok
[00:35] <ali1234> looks like it wants to install a package but it doesn't know which one so it just has an empty string
[00:36] <ali1234> post links to the bug reports here when you're done please
[00:37] <ali1234> i can't promise the wallpaper thing will get fixed. it might be the feature just disappears from the manpage etc
[00:37] <dougbb> Ok, give me a couple minutes, still restoring access to some of my stuff after the clean install
[00:37] <dougbb> ali1234:  :(
[00:37] <ali1234> the new thing automatically rotates the wallpaper though
[00:37] <dougbb> I know it's a silly thing, but I like to have my desktop wallpaper rotate at <hour>:00 and <hour>:30 ... I used to do that with a cron job
[00:38] <dougbb> yeah, the auto rotator starts the timer when you log in
[00:38] <ali1234> well, there is a way to do that still
[00:38] <dougbb> it doesn't do it at a specified time
[00:38] <ali1234> yeah, i understand. but you can still do what you want
[00:38] <dougbb> ok ... I'd be happy to know how :)
[00:38] <ali1234> tell xfdesktop to only use one wallpaper, then use xfconf-query to change the wallpaper filename, then issue the reload
[00:39] <ali1234> this is a more robust way... you can explicitly select any wallpaper you want
[00:41] <ali1234> also, since we fixed up xfwm, you can use any old-style X11 wallpaper tools and get rid of xfdesktop completely (though you'll lose desktop icons)
[00:41] <ali1234> stuff like hsetroot
[00:41] <dougbb> ok, that looks promising ... I'm not seeing how to specify the wallpaper with xfconf-query
[00:42] <dougbb> heh, I used to use hsetroot when I ran openbox
[00:42] <dougbb> I might even still have the script I wrote for that
[00:42] <ali1234> so there's a tool called "settings editor"
[00:42] <ali1234> which is like windows regedit :)
[00:42] <dougbb> that was like 5 years ago
[00:43] <ali1234> in that you'll see a channel called xfce4-desktop
[00:43] <ali1234> inside that you should see some keys called image-path
[00:43] <ali1234> xfconf-query is the command line tool for manipulating those settings
[00:44] <ali1234> there is also a dbus interface if you want to write a python script
[00:44] <brainwash> dougbb: bug 1270090
[00:44] <brainwash> already reported, no solution yet
[00:44] <dougbb> brainwash: I'll look, thanks :)
[00:44] <ali1234> ah nice one :)
[00:45] <dougbb> ali1234: I've never done dbus, but I see the image-path setting in the settings editor
[00:46] <ali1234> xfconf-query -c xfce4-desktop -p /backdrop/screen0/monitor0/image-path -s <path to image>
[00:46] <bluesabre> knome: we inherited it from mrpouit, who inherited it from rancell
[00:46] <bluesabre> knome, that is, lightdm gtk+ greeter
[00:46] <ali1234> you would do something like that. without the -s should print the current value
[00:47] <ali1234> you might not even need to tell xfdesktop to reload, it should watch the keys for changes
[00:48] <ali1234> ah so the prblem with ntp is missing gksudo again?
[00:49] <ali1234> so we need to switch it to pkexec?
[00:49] <knome> bluesabre, you all suck ;)
[00:50] <bluesabre> thanks
[00:50] <bluesabre> but I imagine its restricted because its a core app?
[00:50] <bluesabre> dunno
[00:50] <knome> nah
[00:50] <dougbb> ... always nice to be appreciated
[00:50] <knome> it all depends on LP setup
[00:50] <bluesabre> not sure if its okay to change it, so I leave it as is
[00:50]  * knome shrugs
[00:50] <bluesabre> need me to upload a .po file?
[00:50] <knome> i can ask translation and documentation people... oh, i'm one of those myself :P
[00:51] <brainwash> ali1234: maybe try to use the software center if installed
[00:51] <knome> nah, it just sucks that my translations are suggestions, not real translations
[00:51] <knome> i guess i need to apply to the finnish translator team
[00:52] <ali1234> why don't we just ship the ntp package?
[00:52] <bluesabre> I can approve your translations since you generally don't put garbage in there L)
[00:52] <bluesabre> :)
[00:52] <brainwash> ali1234: we ship ntpdate
[00:53] <ali1234> ntpdate is no good for setting the system clock though
[00:54] <brainwash> I doubt that anyone is willing to fix this
[00:55] <dougbb> ntpdate is fine if we want our time synchronization to be 'about as good as windows'   :)
[00:55] <ali1234> i'll fix it tomorrow. geez
[00:55] <brainwash> the user can easily install ntp manually
[00:55] <brainwash> :D
[00:55] <ali1234> i'm not using software centre though
[00:55] <ali1234> synaptic is installed by default right?
[00:55] <brainwash> no
[00:55] <ali1234> wat?
[00:56] <ali1234> why not?
[00:56] <brainwash> that's the reason that it does not work in the first place
[00:56] <dougbb> no, that's one of the things I have on my "install my stuff after a clean install" list
[00:56] <ali1234> no, the reason it doesnt work is gksudo was removed
[00:56] <brainwash> synaptic does not use gksudo
[00:56] <dougbb> couldn't it use dpkg to install? or apt-get?
[00:56] <ali1234> the bug report says it does
[00:56] <ali1234> on the comment that you wrote...
[00:57] <brainwash> well, it checks for both I think
[00:57] <brainwash> it's a ubuntu specific patch
[00:57] <dougbb> fwiw I can do the "unlock" activity just fine
[00:57] <brainwash> oh, maybe it calls syncaptic with gksudo and not with pkexec
[00:57] <dougbb> It pops up the sudo window, I enter my password, and the interface changes
[00:57] <brainwash> xD
[00:58] <brainwash> did you install gksudo?
[00:58] <ali1234> what package is it even in?
[00:58] <dougbb> It's trying to change the configuration from Manual to "keey synchronized ..." that fails
[00:58] <dougbb> brainwash: no, I haven't installed anything yet
[00:58] <brainwash> package "gksu"
[00:58] <dougbb> .... trying to keep it stock for a bit so that I can more usefully report bugs
[00:58] <ali1234> no i mean that panel?
[00:59] <ali1234> gnome-system-tools?
[00:59] <ali1234> ugh
[00:59] <brainwash> yes
[00:59] <brainwash> time-admin
[00:59] <brainwash> so have fun
[00:59] <ali1234> isn't that like, abaondoned upstream?
[01:00] <brainwash> yes
[01:00] <ali1234> balls.
[01:00] <dougbb> heh
[01:00] <dougbb> lovely
[01:01] <brainwash> but patches are still welcome
[01:01] <brainwash> debian/ubuntu
[01:01] <dougbb> do they have a replacement? I can certainly install and configure ntpd myself, just trying to do things the "normal" way for the beta
[01:02] <ali1234> yeah gnome has a replacement... it only works with gnome
[01:02] <brainwash> there's also mate-system-tools (fork)
[01:02] <ali1234> okay so the problem here is that g-s-t has a common/gst-package.c which attempts to be a cross platform package installation tool
[01:03] <ali1234> i can fix this
[01:03] <dougbb> fwiw, the "unlock" button causes polkit-agent-helper-1 to run ... that's where I'm entering my pass to get the thing unlocked
[01:03] <ali1234> but someone will have to upload it
[01:03] <ali1234> yeah it uses policykit to unlock
[01:03] <ali1234> ten it uses it's own crufty mess of code to install packages with gksudo and synaptic
[01:03] <ali1234> it should use packagekit for this
[01:03] <ali1234> it's what it is for
[01:04] <ali1234> maybe it does try, if it is available
[01:04] <dougbb> sorry if that was obvious to you, I'm still learning linux internals after a long period of bsd
[01:04] <ali1234> okay so we don't ship packagekit either
[01:05] <dougbb> ali1234: gir1.2-packagekitglib-1.0 and libpackagekit-glib2-16:amd64 are installed 
[01:05] <ali1234> hmm
[01:05] <ali1234> well, i'll investigate this properly tomorrow
[01:05] <dougbb> awesome, thanks!  I'll sign up for the bug
[01:06] <dougbb> just curious ... wouldn't something like 'apt-get install ntp -y' do the trick?
[01:06] <ali1234> no
[01:06] <brainwash> without sudo?
[01:06] <ali1234> "sudo apt-get install ntp -y" might though
[01:06] <ali1234> but there would be no where to type your password
[01:06] <dougbb> yeah ... sorry, the sudo was implied :)
[01:06] <dougbb> ah, right, no more gksudo :(
[01:07] <dougbb> d'oh
[01:07] <ali1234> i don't even understand why it was removed
[01:07] <ali1234> i mean we even have a factoid telling people to use it
[01:07] <ali1234> !gksudo
[01:07] <dougbb> yeah, I was just going to ask why
[01:07] <brainwash> so people can have some fun and configure pkexec? :)
[01:09] <dougbb> yeah, that totally looks easier :-/
[01:09] <brainwash> use the software center.. or fall back to terminal?
[01:10] <ali1234> !pkexec
[01:10] <ali1234> oh well, it was worth a try
[01:11] <dougbb> Ok, I just ran this: pkexec --user=root apt-get install ntp -y
[01:11] <dougbb> and it worked
[01:11] <dougbb> (ran it from the command line that is)
[01:12] <ali1234> packagekit is still the best way... it's not tied to debs
[01:12] <dougbb> If that works in the same security context as the "unlock" button creates then it should be an easy fix
[01:12] <dougbb> *nod*  I can't speak to that
[01:12] <ali1234> i should check if they have fixed this in mint
[01:12] <dougbb> ... although fwiw I like things that use policykit, since it works with my fingerprint reader
[01:12] <ali1234> mate or xfce edition... they have both right?
[01:13] <dougbb> (after installing the software for it of course)
[01:13] <ali1234> packagekit uses policykit
[01:13] <dougbb> ah, ok
[01:13] <ali1234> they're all from the same place
[01:13] <dougbb> are things with the *kit names generally related?
[01:13] <ali1234> generally yes
[01:13] <dougbb> Ok, that's good to know, thanks
[01:13] <ali1234> consolekit is another, but it's dead now
[01:13] <ali1234> replaced by systemd
[01:14] <ali1234> systemd will probably swallow up all the other *kit stuff eventually
[01:14] <ali1234> of course on ubuntu we don't use systemd, so we still have consolekit afaik
[01:14] <ali1234> for now anyway
[01:15] <brainwash> no, we have logind
[01:15] <brainwash> + systemd-shim
[01:15] <brainwash> =S
[01:15] <ali1234> doesn't that use consolekit though?
[01:15] <brainwash> no
[01:15] <ali1234> oh, okay
[01:17] <ali1234> hmm... mate-system-tools does not have gst-package.c at all
[01:17] <ali1234> which is promising
[01:17] <dougbb> Interesting ... I installed the ntp package, and now the time and date tool is already set to "update automatically"
[01:18] <ali1234> yes, it checks if it is installed
[01:18] <brainwash> and running
[01:18] <ali1234> mate-system-tools just puts up a message telling you to install ntp
[01:18] <brainwash> it's a service after all
[01:19] <ali1234> same as g-s-t, but without the "install it" button
[01:19] <brainwash> only a message... sounds great :D
[01:19] <ali1234> i guess they;re still stuck on 2.0
[01:20] <brainwash> or they removed the debian patches
[01:20] <ali1234> or they never had them to start with
[01:20] <ali1234> tis is mate, not mint
[01:20] <brainwash> yea
[01:25] <dougbb> so the software center now pops up even more dialogs that disappear so fast I can't see them .... nifty
[01:31] <dougbb> Ok, finally got signed in and subscribed to the time-admin ntp bug :)
[01:32] <dougbb> is there a way to use dpkg or apt-get to find out what package xfdesktop comes from?
[01:33] <ali1234> dpkg -S /usr/bin/xfdesktop
[01:33] <dougbb> awesome!
[01:40] <knome> bluesabre, "generally" ? :P
[01:40] <knome> how do you even know...
[01:40] <knome> you couldn't really know if all the xubuntu docs were "humpty dumpty"
[01:42] <dougbb> google translate is your friend :)
[01:46] <brainwash> launchpad failed to build a package for amd64.. did not even provide any build log, so I requested to retry it and it magically worked now
[01:47] <brainwash> wish I could understand packaging a bit better
[01:49] <brainwash> why isn't there a daily xfce PPA? because no one cares to maintain one?
[01:52] <dougbb> d'oh
[01:52] <dougbb> ali1234: I've reported the wallpaper bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-system-tools/+bug/1293287
[01:53] <dougbb> oops! https://bugzilla.xfce.org/ SSL cert expired today
[01:55] <dougbb> d'oh, apparently that site requires yet another account to be created :-
[01:55] <brainwash> you've filed the report against.. gnome-system-tools
[01:55] <dougbb> errr, no, I changed it to xfdesktop4
[01:56] <dougbb> d'oh
[01:56] <dougbb> apparently my change didn't "take"
[01:56] <dougbb> brainwash: do you have access to fix that? Or how can I do it?
[01:57] <brainwash> already did
[01:57] <dougbb> oh, thanks!
[01:57] <dougbb> that was what came up in the dialog when I started filling in the bug report, but I changed it ... that's why I asked the dpkg question
[02:00] <brainwash> the xfdesktop maintainer is usually very active
[02:00] <dougbb> ok
[02:01] <dougbb> is it worthwhile for me to create an account to file the bug on bugzilla.xfce.org as well? Or wait till I get feedback from the launchpad bug?
[02:01] <brainwash> but we still need an upstream report, not sure if he checks launchpad regularly
[02:01] <dougbb> ah, ok
[02:01] <dougbb> no worries
[02:02] <dougbb> I just ran into another little bug (leftover from previous versions) ... I changed my icon theme and my mail icon went missing
[02:02] <dougbb> (in the menu)
[02:02] <bluesabre> brainwash: some components are auto-imported, but are frozen
[02:02] <bluesabre> so they cannot be synced from git
[02:03] <bluesabre> for their vcs-imports
[02:03] <brainwash> but there are no daily builds
[02:03] <bluesabre> it might be possible to set more of them up, haven't had a chance
[02:04] <bluesabre> brainwash: libxfce4ui and parole are here: https://launchpad.net/~smd-seandavis/+archive/xfce-4.12-daily
[02:04] <bluesabre> (daily pkgs)
[02:04] <bluesabre> the others are messed up, I'll try to get around to fixing them this week
[02:05] <brainwash> I was able to build xfdesktop (git)
[02:05] <brainwash> https://launchpad.net/~thad-fisch/+archive/xfce-git
[02:06] <brainwash> but doing this felt more like a hack, so it's not done properly I guess
[02:06] <bluesabre> yeah, poke me throughout the week to fix it
[02:06] <bluesabre> s/fix it/add packages to my ppa
[02:07] <brainwash> and also build them for trusty
[02:08] <bluesabre> that too :)
[02:09] <brainwash> do i need --enable-maintainer-mode?
[02:10] <bluesabre> usually helps
[02:10] <brainwash> ok, I'll test it
[02:11] <brainwash> I had to make similar changes -> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~smd-seandavis/libxfce4ui/debian/revision/13
[02:12] <brainwash> also added "make" after autogen.sh to debian/rules
[02:13] <brainwash> but that's somewhat wrong
[02:13] <bluesabre> yeah
[02:13] <brainwash> without it the build process would stop at some point and complain about missing files
[02:13] <bluesabre> copy the same arguments used in autogen to dh_auto_configure
[02:18] <brainwash> I did not use any for autogen
[02:19] <brainwash> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/trusty/xfdesktop4/trusty/files/head:/common/
[02:20] <brainwash> xfdesktop-marshal.h and c were missing
[02:20] <brainwash> make creates them
[02:20] <bluesabre> ./autogen.sh --enable-maintainer-mode
[02:20] <brainwash> to create those files?
[02:21] <bluesabre> try it
[02:21] <bluesabre> :)
[02:22] <brainwash> ok, what about "dh_shlibdeps --dpkg-shlibdeps-params=--ignore-missing-info" ?
[02:22] <brainwash> had to add this too
[02:23] <bluesabre> :\
[02:25] <brainwash> no a clean solution?
[02:25] <bluesabre> I'll check it out
[02:26] <brainwash> the build process stopped at some point, gave me some error message.. so I've added something to make it go away
[02:26] <bluesabre> probably not ok
[02:28] <brainwash> I'll try to resolve it properly
[02:29] <brainwash> btw is there some way to use the git commit message(s) for the debian changelog?
[02:30] <bluesabre> if its just a daily package, changelog doesn't really matter, but debian changelog does not store that kind of info
[02:31] <brainwash> it would be great to see something informative when updating the package
[02:32] <brainwash> other than "auto build"
[02:32] <bluesabre> auto builds will only display that, part of the recipe magic
[02:33] <brainwash> ok, that's fine then
[02:34] <brainwash> I've removed the additional "make" and added "--enable-maintainer-mode"
[02:35] <brainwash> make[4]: *** No rule to make target `xfdesktop-marshal.c', needed by `libxfdesktop_la-xfdesktop-marshal.lo'.  Stop.
[02:37] <brainwash> I'll try it on my test system tomorrow, don't feel like abusing launchpad any longer with my failed builds :)
[02:40] <dougbb> heh
[02:44] <dougbb> interesting, so if I'm logged into launchpad when something crashes on my system it automatically creates a bug report ... I never knew that
[02:44] <dougbb> I will put that to good use with some of my bugs that occur frequently :)
[03:16] <brainwash> dougbb: bug 1293305 needs to be re-assigned also
[03:16] <brainwash> xfdesktop4 is the wrong target package
[03:17] <dougbb> brainwash: yeah, I noticed that ... this time I double-checked that i selected "I don't know" but it selected what was filled in when I started the form anyway
[03:17] <dougbb> Very annoying
[03:17] <dougbb> also, there doesn't seem to be a "preview" option, which I looked for to see if I could check for that problem before submitting
[03:19] <brainwash> so what is the main culprit? the app menu (xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin), the mail reader shortcut (exo-utils) or the affected themes (various packages)
[03:19] <dougbb> well it's the icon choice in the "Mail Reader" menu item
[03:20] <bluesabre> I think that's xubuntu-default-settings that installs those items
[03:20] <dougbb> I'm not sure what package that comes from
[03:20] <brainwash> bluesabre: exo-utils
[03:21] <brainwash> /usr/share/applications/exo-mail-reader.desktop
[03:21] <bluesabre> ah
[03:21] <bluesabre> indeed
[03:22] <dougbb> this is why I didn't guess :-/
[03:23] <brainwash> what would be the replacement for "internet-mail" icon?
[03:25] <brainwash> one thing we cannot change is to edit all the different icon themes out there
[03:26] <dougbb> brainwash: yeah, that's why I suggested placing some defaults in /usr/share/pixmaps
[03:26] <dougbb> if there is a more specific icon in the theme, it will override that
[03:26] <dougbb> but if there is not, the /usr/share/pixmaps version will get picked up
[03:27] <dougbb> that makes it a fairly painless solution
[03:27] <brainwash> the question, how should we provide this additional icon?
[03:29] <brainwash> I suggest that we should target the app menu instead, it shouldn't hide an entry if the icon is not available
[03:30] <brainwash> it could display a generic icon or just no icon
[03:30] <bluesabre> agreed
[03:31] <bluesabre> xfce4-applications-menu or whisker?
[03:31] <brainwash> dougbb: whisker menu, right?
[03:32] <brainwash> http://gottcode.org/xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin/screenshots/whiskermenu.png
[03:32] <dougbb> It's not totally clear to me which bit is the whisker menu
[03:33] <dougbb> in a default install it happens on the menu that is in the upper left corner of the screen
[03:33] <brainwash> take a look at the linked picture
[03:33] <dougbb> ... and also in the "Applications" menu if I right-click on the desktop (which I think is the same thing)
[03:33] <dougbb> ah, yes
[03:33] <dougbb> it is happening in the new 14.04 version, and also in the 13.x menus
[03:33] <brainwash> also in the right click context menu of the desktop?
[03:34] <dougbb> yes
[03:34] <brainwash> the mail reader entry is completely missing?
[03:34] <brainwash> that's really strange
[03:34] <dougbb> no, just the icon
[03:35] <dougbb> the text bit remains
[03:36] <dougbb> so in your example, the little picture of the envelope with the old "first class" ribbon around it would be gone, but the words "Mail Reader Read your email" would still be there, as well as the spacing where the icon should be
[03:36] <brainwash> ah ok
[03:37] <dougbb> I changed my icon theme to GNOME which did it for me in 14.04
[03:37] <dougbb> there are several others that I usually install which also have the same problem
[03:38] <dougbb> ok, bugzilla.xfce.org bug created for the xfdesktop --reload issue:  https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10754
[03:38] <dougbb> ... this time I managed to associate it with the right package  :)
[03:38] <brainwash> the usual answer would be to "use an icon theme which provides the necessary icons"
[03:38] <dougbb> brainwash: yes, but that's a silly answer, since several of the icon themes that ship by default have this problem :)
[03:38] <dougbb> not to mention, the fix is painless .... just put default icons in /usr/share/pixmaps for everything in the menu
[03:39] <brainwash> I'm just not sure, how we could ship the a generic mail icon
[03:39] <dougbb> if you use the svg images you'll be all set
[03:40] <brainwash> but which package does provide it?
[03:40] <dougbb> (since obviously they'll scale to whatever context they are used)
[03:40] <dougbb> that I can't comment on intelligently ... the how and where of packages I am still trying to learn
[03:41] <dougbb> although I would think that at least for this issue exo-utils might be the right answer
[03:41] <brainwash> right, this can cause some headache
[03:41] <brainwash> yes, exo-utils
[03:42] <dougbb> FWIW this internet-mail icon is the only one I've ever seen go missing
[03:42] <brainwash> and an upstream report might be also required
[03:42] <dougbb> so the problem may actually be limited to that icon, but I certainly haven't done a thorough test to see if every menu icon shows up with every icon theme :)
[03:43] <brainwash> sadly the priority to fix this is very low
[03:43] <dougbb> yeah, I can understand that ... but I agree that it's sad, because this is exactly the kind of thing that makes linux look "unpolished" to novice users
[03:44] <brainwash> novice users usually don't change the icon theme
[03:44] <dougbb> I know how to fix this problem, so to me it's a minor annoyance ... but to users trying it out for the first time it's a WTF
[03:44] <brainwash> :D
[03:44] <dougbb> heh, yeah, keep telling yourself that :)
[03:45] <dougbb> number one question I get from people when I tell them I'm running Linux on my business laptop, "OOOooo, can I see what it looks like?"
[03:46] <brainwash> but feel free to add some additional information to your report
[03:46] <brainwash> like which icon could be used exactly
[03:46] <dougbb> I thought I did?
[03:46] <dougbb> oh, you mean like exactly which symlink to create?
[03:46] <brainwash> from the elementary theme?
[03:47] <dougbb> well I like the elementary theme, but it seems not to be installed by default on 14.04
[03:47] <dougbb> there are some "elementary-<foo>" versions though
[03:47] <brainwash> basically a step-by-step explanation
[03:48] <brainwash> which icon, where to install it, what symlinks
[03:49] <dougbb> ok
[03:49] <brainwash> and details about the icon file itself
[03:49] <brainwash> which license
[03:52] <brainwash> and at this point of the dev cycle I'm not even sure, if the change will land in trusty
[03:53] <dougbb> yeah, understood ... I should have reported it long ago, but I'm trying to make up for lost time here :)
[03:54] <OvenWerk1> brainwash: speaking of menu icons... I have seen some that show in the right click menu but not the top corner menu (in studio but with xfce) They used to what has changed in T?
[03:54] <brainwash> it's always great to have users who want to improve the distribution they use
[03:55] <brainwash> OvenWerk1: some? can you name any?
[03:55] <dougbb> well I try ... sometimes I get really busy so some of the trivial stuff falls by the wayside
[03:55] <OvenWerk1> Off the top of my head meterbridge from jack. A lot of them are audio apps
[03:55] <dougbb> I used to do software development for a living, and I spent a long time volunteering for FreeBSD, so I always appreciated it when users sent useful bug reports
[03:56] <OvenWerk1> A lot of them seem to be pixmaps
[03:56] <OvenWerk1> I am booted in 13.10 on this machine
[03:57] <OvenWerk1> everything works in 13.10
[03:57] <brainwash> dougbb: that's awesome, open source is great, but sometimes there is just not enough man power to push forward and change things :)
[03:58] <dougbb> exactly
[04:00] <OvenWerk1> brainwash: I think almost all of them are in our own metas, that is creative sw.
[04:00] <brainwash> OvenWerk1: I assume that you are talking about the recent regression, launchers which specify an icon + extension (example.png) are not displayed properly
[04:00] <OvenWerk1> AH, yes that makes sense
[04:01] <OvenWerk1> The few I looked at the desktop file for were like that
[04:01] <brainwash> xubuntu has replaced the default xfce app menu with whisker menu (alternative app menu)
[04:02] <OvenWerk1> brainwash: is that something that will be fixed? or should the apps be usiing no extension?
[04:02] <brainwash> so we are somewhat not affected by this directly
[04:02] <brainwash> it will be fixed soon-ish
[04:03] <brainwash> well, I hope
[04:03] <OvenWerk1> OK
[04:04] <brainwash> OvenWerk1: https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10709
[04:05] <OvenWerk1> I wonder if it is worth overlaying a blank icon for the error one. So it doesn't look broken :)
[04:06] <brainwash> nah, it should easily fixable, but someone has to look into it
[04:07] <OvenWerk1> Beyond me for sure. I can do some c stuff, but tk is about a gui as I get
[04:07] <brainwash> the menu from the desktop right click menu works fine, so we already have a working solution
[04:08] <brainwash> just need to "port" it
[04:08] <OvenWerk1> Yup
[04:08] <brainwash> it's written in C
[04:09] <OvenWerk1> Ya, it would be, but wrapping my head around gtk is more than I am up to right now.
[04:09] <brainwash> you don't even touch gtk
[04:10] <OvenWerk1> I managed to do a pygtk thing to put an icon in systray, but that is it.
[04:11] <brainwash> it's about loading the image file into a buffer
[04:12] <OvenWerk1> I thought you would have to use some toolkit.... ok.
[04:12] <brainwash> so passing the correct path seems to be broken in some cases
[04:12] <brainwash> no, just edit the .c file
[04:12] <OvenWerk1> Or it is lookiing for path/file.ext.* and not finding it
[04:13] <brainwash> you might need to read about the api
[04:13] <OvenWerk1> Very much
[04:13] <brainwash> possible, I did not investigate yet
[04:14] <brainwash> but it's something which should be fixed within a small amount of time
[04:15] <dougbb> brainwash I added the extra details you asked for .... the ones I could answer anyway :)
[04:15] <brainwash> dougbb: thanks
[04:15] <dougbb> glad to help
[04:16] <dougbb> ... and thanks to you and ali1234 for all of your help as well :)
[09:17] <ochosi> morning everyone
[09:34] <ochosi> knome: thanks, added a brief conclusion
[09:51] <knome> np
[09:57] <ochosi> we could theoretically add before/after screenshots
[09:57] <ochosi> to avoid the current "wall of text" impression
[10:20] <ochosi> knome: do you think we could get a new light-locker feature-release into 14.04?
[10:20] <ochosi> (given that it would happen soon)
[10:20] <ochosi> or: what's your opinion on that
[10:20] <ochosi> the feature i'm referring to is "late locking"
[10:22] <ochosi> this means that instead of going to the lockscreen directly when the "lock session" signal is caught (i.e. when someone actively locks the session or the timer for that is expired), it only goes to the greeter/unlock screen when the user wakes the machine up
[10:22] <knome> i fail to see the difference
[10:22] <knome> please explain further ;)
[10:22] <knome> i'm more of less AFK for 5-15mins
[10:23] <ochosi> example: 1) listening to music, no activity for 30mins (screensaver timeout) 2) screen blanks
[10:23] <ochosi> without late locking: 3) you get forwarded to the greeter, music stops.
[10:23] <ochosi> with late locking: 3) screen blanks 4) you touch the mouse -> you get forwarded to the greeter, music stop.s
[10:25] <brainwash> ochosi: can you please comment on bug 1291914
[10:26] <brainwash> "contribute to xubuntu" will be dropped if I remember correctly
[10:27] <ochosi> yup, done
[10:27] <brainwash> that was fast, thanks :)
[10:28] <knome> ochosi, hmm, right
[10:29] <knome> ochosi, so music stops only when you are *shown* the unlock window?
[10:29] <ochosi> yup
[10:29] <ochosi> that's the main difference
[10:30] <ochosi> but, it has to be mentioned that also when you *accidentally* touch the mouse, your music won't keep playing :)
[10:30] <ochosi> there's nothing we can do about that one
[10:30] <knome> of course
[10:30] <brainwash> same applies to some applications which access the graphics card
[10:30] <ochosi> (apart from not using timed-locking)
[10:30] <knome> is the feature ready?
[10:30] <ochosi> it is in a development release (1.3.0) at the moment
[10:31] <knome> is it tested (at all)?
[10:31] <ochosi> we're waiting for translations to release 1.4.0
[10:31] <ochosi> yeah, it is tested, but i can't say how much
[10:31] <knome> okay...
[10:31] <ochosi> i mean, i tested it a few times with nvidia/nouveau drivers
[10:31] <knome> is there any likely regressions?
[10:31] <ochosi> cavalier tested intel
[10:31] <ochosi> and i think someone tested radeon
[10:32] <ochosi> not that i can think of
[10:32] <knome> okay
[10:32] <ochosi> (the feature has been in a separate branch for a while already, so actually we tested it for a while)
[10:32] <knome> okay
[10:32] <ochosi> the changes that this feature would require:
[10:32] <knome> let me give 5 mins to think about it
[10:32] <ochosi> 1) update light-locker to 1.4.0
[10:33] <ochosi> 2) update lightdm-gtk-greeter not to initially blank the screen
[10:33] <ochosi> 3) update light-locker-settings to reflect the additional setting
[10:33] <ochosi> (also, 1.4.0 brings an option to deactivate lock-on-suspend)
[10:33] <ochosi> (that one could be backported to 1.2.1, but there wouldn't be translations for it)
[10:36] <brainwash> knome: can you please mark bug 1033174 as "wishlist"?
[10:41] <knome> done
[10:42] <brainwash> thanks
[10:50] <knome> ochosi, i think we could try to get the new release in, but please get it prepared ASAP so we will have it in time for b2 (or preferably, in dailies before b2)
[10:53] <ochosi> knome: ok, i'll also talk to bluesabre about it though
[10:53] <ochosi> since we'd have to do some work on this together
[10:53] <knome> do that, but please do it today
[10:54] <knome> why is the pdf export so slow?
[10:54] <ochosi> btw, as an alternative, we could try to bring in the lock-on-suspend option
[10:54] <knome> umh,
[10:54] <knome> that's a new feature as well, right?
[10:54] <ochosi> not really
[10:55] <knome> aha...
[10:55] <ochosi> currently it locks on suspend, *always*
[10:55] <ochosi> it's just adding an option for that
[10:55] <ochosi> so not a very invasive change
[10:57] <brainwash> but an important one :)
[11:01] <knome> any reason we woldn't want to do both?
[11:04] <ochosi> knome: not really, apart from teh fact that late locking needs more changes
[11:18] <knome> so which would you consider a better "patch" ?
[12:25] <knome> i just changed the IRC support page to a full-width page
[12:25] <knome> allows more scrollback
[12:26] <xubuntu254> much better!
[14:23] <brainwash> knome: can you please mark bug 407976 as "won't fix"? it's an old issue that we cannot verify anymore
[14:26] <knome> what about marking it incomplete
[14:27] <knome> and undecided
[14:28] <brainwash> mmh, maybe
[14:29] <knome> can you also follow up with the upstream bug?
[14:29] <brainwash> but the report targets ubuntu 8.04 :D
[14:29] <brainwash> this is ancient stuff
[14:29] <knome> yeah, i wonder what the general guideline is
[14:29] <brainwash> me too
[14:30] <knome> mark bugs with EOL releases won't fix or something else
[14:30]  * knome digs in the bugsquad wiki
[14:32] <brainwash> the bug description also mentions Xfapplet which is gone now
[14:33] <brainwash> removed from the repo since at least 12.04
[14:36] <knome> Some bugs are never responded to by the submitter (also called "original poster", or "OP"). These bugs will be automatically expired by Launchpad in 60 days, counted from the day it was set incomplete. There is no need to act on them (and, actually, changing the bug will restart the expiry period). Note that this applies for the Ubuntu project (i.e., those bug tasks that have "(Ubuntu)" in their name). Other projects may, or may not, have automa
[14:36] <knome> ...which makes me think that setting to "incomplete" is the right way :)
[14:37] <brainwash> so want to kill it slowly? :)
[14:37] <knome> well, i guess that's the only way to mark it "expired"
[14:37] <brainwash> I'm fine with it
[14:37] <knome> i mean, theoretically "won't fix" is a bad status
[14:37] <knome> because it *would* fit our plans to fix that bug if we had it :)
[14:38] <brainwash> we did not manage to fix it in time, or maybe we did... stupid outdated reports :D
[14:39]  * knome shrugs
[14:40] <brainwash> there are still a bunch of older reports still open, cleaning them up really takes some time
[14:41] <brainwash> some are still valid, others are not easy to verify anymore
[14:44] <knome> brainwash, see bug 407976
[14:44] <knome> brainwash, asked #ubuntu-bugs, and they said the usual way is to mark it as invalid with a comment like one i left
[14:46] <brainwash> great, thanks for asking in -bugs and changing the status accordingly 
[14:46] <knome> np.
[14:46] <knome> you really should get those bug permissions
[14:47] <knome> 16:46  hggdh: knome: correction -- set to incomplete, and ask the OP to check on a newer release
[14:47] <knome> 16:47  hggdh: knome: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses#Release_has_reached_EOL
[14:48] <brainwash> yea :D
[14:58] <knome> slickymasterWork, actually, let's take it here
[14:58] <knome> here's my notes:
[14:58] <slickymasterWork> ok
[14:58] <knome> * refresh first slide
[14:59] <knome> * rethink "personalize" slide title
[14:59] <knome> * rethink "personalize" slide screenshot
[14:59] <knome> * simon works on the "customize" slide
[14:59] <knome> * artwork in the "help" slide?
[14:59] <knome> * artwork in the "thanks" slide?
[14:59] <knome> and that's it.
[15:00] <slickymasterWork> besides the first two items, I have to say that the mugshot in the personalize slide is really to big
[15:00] <elfy> ha ha ha ha 
[15:00] <elfy> oooh yea 
[15:01] <slickymasterWork> I like the artwork on the help slide, I wouldn't touch it
[15:01] <knome> i would rather not do non 1:1 shots...
[15:01] <knome> there is no artwork on the help slide D:
[15:01] <elfy> slickymasterWork: I said the same about mugshot
[15:01] <slickymasterWork> elfy: ;)
[15:01] <elfy> it needs cutting like the other one ;)
[15:01] <elfy> *just saying*
[15:02] <slickymasterWork> those ballons with the xub log and the words are on the Thanks slide?
[15:02] <knome> i actually think we should rework the whiskermenu shot.
[15:02] <knome> slickymasterWork, you said "help"
[15:02] <slickymasterWork> I'm still branching the last rev, so I haven't yet saw how it is now
[15:02] <slickymasterWork> my mistake, :(
[15:02] <slickymasterWork> I meant the Thnaks slide
[15:02] <knome> slickymasterWork, remember you can always 'bzr pull' if you already have any version of the branch
[15:03] <slickymasterWork> I really like those images
[15:03] <slickymasterWork> I haven't
[15:03] <elfy> knome: oh - is that how you do it ... 
[15:03] <slickymasterWork> I'm at work, not at my laptop
[15:03] <knome> elfy, haha! :)
[15:03] <knome> elfy, yeah... 'bzr pull' always gets the latest revision
[15:03] <elfy> no laughing at the bzr hater ... :p
[15:03] <slickymasterWork> almost done
[15:04]  * elfy ends up with bunches deleted :)
[15:04] <knome> elfy, well that's a general VCS thing
[15:04] <knome> elfy, branch/clone once, then keep pulling newer revisions
[15:05] <knome> elfy, the command in git would be 'git pull' as well ;)
[15:05] <elfy> aah cool - thanks knome :)
[15:05] <knome> and iirc, it's also 'hg pull' in mercurial...
[15:05] <slickymasterWork> lousy connectivity 
[15:07] <slickymasterWork> ok done. Going to run it
[15:08] <slickymasterWork> knome: knome, I don't see how to add any artwork in the help slide
[15:09] <knome> slickymasterWork, exactly...
[15:09] <knome> :)
[15:09] <slickymasterWork> unless some text gets wiped
[15:09] <knome> that's why i wondered why you like the artwork on that slide
[15:09] <knome> or how
[15:09] <slickymasterWork> no, I was really referring to the thanks one
[15:09] <knome> yeah
[15:09] <knome> :)
[15:10] <slickymasterWork> even though taking in consideration yuor aged objection, I think they suit very well there
[15:11] <slickymasterWork> the first slide, you said refreshing it
[15:11] <slickymasterWork> you mean other the removing the we need you help part (which is already done)?
[15:11] <slickymasterWork> s/the/then
[15:12] <knome> i was thinking of reviewing the text as well
[15:12] <knome> let me open the slideshow as well
[15:12]  * knome has been focusing on the "when we were kids" discussion on offtopic :P
[15:12] <elfy> :)
[15:13] <slickymasterWork> yeah, I've been cross reading it :)
[15:13] <knome> slickymasterWork, so actually, the first slide text is now okay
[15:13] <slickymasterWork> that's my opinion, also
[15:13] <knome> i was really "meh" with the "this *exciting* piece of software..."
[15:13] <knome> really, that crappy, buggy software? ;)
[15:13] <slickymasterWork> but jjfrv8 mentioned that he didn't like the 'much' on the second block of text
[15:14] <knome> i don't like that either
[15:14] <knome> and we should look at making that "if" -paragraph a bubble
[15:14] <slickymasterWork> and it can be misleading
[15:14] <knome> like the live one in the help slide
[15:15] <slickymasterWork> yes
[15:17] <knome> argh, i can't work with the guitar wall on the speakers
[15:17] <knome> (explosions in the sky: it's natural to be afraid, a 13min+ epoch)
[15:17] <elfy> knome: the 'much' thing - wouldn't the installed desktop look exactly the same as the live one?
[15:18] <knome> except some icons on the desktop and minor things like that
[15:18] <slickymasterWork> I saw those guys in last Primavera sound festival here in Porto
[15:18] <elfy> After installation, the desktop will look similar to how it does now.
[15:18] <slickymasterWork> that's my point elfy, and why I think it may be misleading
[15:19] <elfy> After installation, the desktop will look similar to how it does now.
[15:19] <elfy> After installation, the desktop will look blue.
[15:19] <knome> lol
[15:19] <slickymasterWork> The live support could be changed into something like real-time support or sth
[15:20] <elfy> it will look similar 
[15:21] <slickymasterWork> knome: what are you disliking in the whisker shot? 
[15:21] <knome> nothing
[15:21] <knome> but if we want to make the shots similar, i think we should rather edit that than the others
[15:22] <slickymasterWork> so we're just speaking of moving it's placement in the slide?
[15:22] <elfy> knome: I don't feel as strongly about the theme config screenies - the one behind kind of shows that it's not an afterthought
[15:22] <knome> elfy, huh?
[15:23] <knome> how can one feel so lost
[15:23] <knome> :|
[15:23] <elfy> you might be talking about a different thing :)
[15:23] <knome> i'm pretty sure what you say is making sense
[15:23] <elfy> oh good 
[15:23] <knome> don't expect me to understand any of it though
[15:24] <elfy> I won't
[15:24] <elfy> I'll just be completely blunt about it and say the mugshot one completely wrong :)
[15:25] <slickymasterWork> knome: "Personalize your computer" -> "Shape your computer to who you are"?
[15:25] <knome> uh
[15:26] <elfy> that sounds wrong 
[15:26] <slickymasterWork> elfy: +1
[15:27] <knome> pull
[15:27] <elfy> push
[15:27] <knome> i did :P
[15:27] <elfy> ha ha ha 
[15:28] <elfy> After installation bit looks wrong
[15:28] <elfy> similar to how it does now rather than similar to as it does now
[15:29] <elfy> After installing, the desktop will look similar to how it does now
[15:29] <elfy> perhaps is better
[15:30] <elfy> knome slickymasterWork - so what's wrong with Personalize your computer ?
[15:30] <elfy> other than the z ... ;)
[15:30] <knome> :P
[15:30] <knome> brb, need to take care of #x
[15:31] <slickymasterWork> the mugshot shot is too big knome 
[15:31] <elfy> slickymasterWork: he knows - I spent an hour on Saturday talking about it :p
[15:31] <knome> well then take a smaller one... :P
[15:32] <knome> max. 410 pixels
[15:32] <knome> if you want it to fit in the space
[15:32] <slickymasterWork> give me a minute and I'll send to you?
[15:32] <knome> sure. i'll be herding cats at #x anyway
[15:38] <slickymasterWork> knome: mugshot GUI isn't resizable, so I'll have to do it in gimp. I'm going for a 75% size
[15:39] <knome> well,
[15:39] <knome> bleh.
[15:39] <knome> any other ideas for that slide?
[15:39] <knome> take a screenshot of the login window with a user image set?
[15:40] <slickymasterWork> a stock image, you mean?
[15:40] <knome> well...
[15:40] <knome> maybe not
[15:40] <knome> the stock images are BAD
[15:41] <slickymasterWork> with the xub logo as image user?
[15:41] <knome> i don't know
[15:42] <slickymasterWork> I'll try it
[15:42] <knome> we could just take the screenshot and ask ochosi for any image to put in there
[15:42] <knome> we can replace the image easily enough anyway
[15:45] <knome> pleia2, we should probably list the projects that the docs team is working in the "get involved" area
[15:45] <knome> like, also mention the slideshow
[15:45] <pleia2> knome: like, the lp links?
[15:45] <knome> possibly
[15:46] <pleia2> or maybe write something up on the wiki
[15:46] <pleia2> and link to that
[15:46] <knome> oh meh
[15:46] <pleia2> hah
[15:46] <knome> it's just one more link we want
[15:46] <knome> so please let's not create a wikipage for that
[15:46] <knome> In addition to the Xubuntu system documentation, ...
[15:47] <knome> that would be a good place to mention the slideshow
[15:47] <pleia2> yeah
[15:47] <knome> we also should talk less about the community help wiki
[15:47] <knome> if at all
[15:47] <knome> and/or move it to somewhere later
[15:47] <knome> we're talking about screencasts as well
[15:47] <knome> that's a bit specific
[15:48] <knome> maybe we should reword it to say "other kind of documentation projects are welcome as well"
[15:48] <knome> also, while we're at it, should we lists sites like askubuntu in the "support" list?
[15:48] <knome> or do we want to keep it stritcly with IRC + ML + LP support requests
[16:06] <knome> soo... the slideshow :P
[16:07] <slickymasterWork> I'm having problems with my VM box
[16:08] <slickymasterWork> give me a few more minutes
[16:08] <elfy> what are we after getting here?
[16:08] <knome> did you pull the latest revision?
[16:08] <elfy> me or slickymasterWork ?
[16:08] <knome> i pushed changes to the first slide
[16:08] <knome> both
[16:09] <slickymasterWork> I've pulled it, and I'm ok with the changes you made
[16:09] <elfy> I'm up to date
[16:09] <elfy> and slide one needs to be sorted 
[16:09] <knome> :D
[16:09] <elfy> you want me to do that and push it?
[16:10] <knome> sure, but you probably can't push to the main branch...
[16:10] <elfy> I could the other day I thought
[16:10] <elfy> if not someone else will have to 
[16:11] <elfy> oh no - I can't of course - just mine
[16:11] <knome> heh :)
[16:11] <elfy> though it still needs to be sorted - it's not spanglish at the moment even - it's stranglish :)
[16:12] <knome> lol
[16:12] <knome> paste me the new text
[16:12] <slickymasterWork> I'm not being able to get a screenshot of the login greeter
[16:12] <elfy> After the installation, the desktop will look similar to how it does now.
[16:13] <elfy> knome: ok - I'll grab a screenshot then - max size 410 was it ?
[16:13] <knome> ah, done
[16:13] <knome> slickymasterWork, booo! :)
[16:13] <knome> elfy, yeah, max width 410, but i guess that's not a problem with the greeter login
[16:13] <knome> just make the username "Xubuntu User"
[16:13] <knome> you can leave the profile image as is
[16:13] <knome> we can replace it manually
[16:14] <elfy> ok
[16:15] <elfy> how do you run lightdm in testmode?
[16:16] <knome> testmode?
[16:16] <knome> no idea...
[16:16] <elfy> with zenity or something I thought 
[16:17] <knome> ochosi would know
[16:17] <knome> but of course he's not around when you need him
[16:18]  * elfy has it worked out now
[16:18] <knome> that ochosi is never available when you need him, or the screenshot?
[16:19] <elfy> test mode and the screenshot shortly :)
[16:19] <knome> cool
[16:20] <elfy> back shortly
[16:20] <brainwash> lightdm --test-mode
[16:21] <slickymasterWork> knome: check your email
[16:21] <knome> heh, who's first ;)
[16:21] <knome> hmm
[16:22] <knome> is it in spam :P
[16:22] <brainwash> with all the talk about screenshots I start to wonder.. do we already have a new default wallpaper?
[16:22] <knome> ah no, there it is
[16:22] <knome> brainwash, no
[16:22] <brainwash> :(
[16:24] <brainwash> well, at least we can already use the community ones :)
[16:25] <elfy> knome: mailed you what I could get - will need tidying
[16:25] <knome> brainwash, we *will* have a new wallpaper though.
[16:25] <brainwash> hooray
[16:26] <knome> elfy, i got it sorted, from slickymaster ;)
[16:26] <elfy> ok 
[16:26] <elfy> jfi - install xserver-xephyr then lightdm --test-mode
[16:27] <slickymasterWork> knome, elfy. "Personalize your computer" -> "You in your computer"?
[16:27] <knome> uhu
[16:27] <knome> :(
[16:28] <slickymasterWork> yeah, I know, too lame
[16:28] <elfy> and I keep getting odd times with lightdm-gtk-greeter sitting here - causing me pain
[16:28] <elfy> I'd have said something like Make It Yours - except the next slide does similar
[16:29] <slickymasterWork> yes elfy, it's sort of ties up that next slide
[16:30] <elfy> or 
[16:30] <elfy> leave the title as it is and change the wording in the text to something like Make the greeter yours
[16:31] <elfy> but tbh I really don't see what's wrong with Personalise your computer
[16:31] <elfy> knome: did you change the stranglish yet? 
[16:32] <knome> yeah
[16:32] <knome> not in the branch though
[16:32] <slickymasterWork> have you pushed it already knome ?
[16:32] <elfy> just checking :)
[16:32] <knome> not yet
[16:33] <slickymasterWork> well, maybe it's better just to leave it as it is
[16:33] <slickymasterWork> the tittle, I mean
[16:34] <elfy> personally I don't see an issue with it 
[16:38] <slickymasterWork> lol, I getting crazy
[16:38] <slickymasterWork> s/I/I'm
[16:38] <knome> hehe
[16:39] <slickymasterWork> every is crashing here,, from my VM box to SQL Server, oracle 10g
[16:40] <knome> heh
[16:40] <knome> i just pushed a new revision 615
[16:41] <knome> i'm getting grumpy, #x and too little food
[16:42] <elfy> that looks better for the greeter rather than the mugshot one
[16:44] <knome> yep, i think that slide is ready now
[16:45] <elfy> yep
[16:45] <elfy> on slide one - I wonder if the text bubble would look better slightly higher
[16:47] <slickymasterWork> let me check
[16:50] <slickymasterWork> knome: I think elfy is right, regarding the bubble in the first slide
[16:50] <knome> i don't know
[16:50] <knome> i'm not sure about the whole bubble
[16:50] <knome> i think it was better as is...
[16:50] <slickymasterWork> also, are we keeping the live designation in the help slide?
[16:50] <knome> ochosi, ping ping, slideshow content
[16:58] <knome> slickymasterWork, mmh, we can change that to real time
[16:59] <knome> or real-time?
[17:00] <slickymasterWork> YES, REAL-TIME
[17:00] <slickymasterWork> sorry, my VM is completely cuckoo
[17:02] <knome> hehe, np
[17:02] <knome> ok, done
[17:03] <knome> so what do you think, should we just revert the bubble to no bubble on the first slide?
[17:03] <elfy> I'd say so
[17:03] <knome> yeah
[17:03] <slickymasterWork> +1 on that knome 
[17:04] <knome> ok, do we want to extend the slide?
[17:06] <elfy> extend? 
[17:06] <slickymasterWork> which knome, the first?
[17:06] <ochosi> knome: sorry, won't get to that before very late or tomorrow
[17:08] <knome> the first slide
[17:08] <knome> extend as in have more text
[17:08] <knome> ochosi, do you plan to show "menu paths" ?
[17:11] <slickymasterWork> sorry guys, have to take my kid to his tennis class
[17:11] <slickymasterWork> will be back after dinner
[17:11] <knome> slickymasterWork, that's fine, ttyl
[17:11] <knome> have fun :)
[17:11] <slickymasterWork> will be the all time thinking about the car repair budget :P
[17:11] <knome> awwh :/
[17:11] <slickymasterWork> ->
[17:12] <elfy> knome: is there any need to add more text - if the slide says what we want - then it's enough
[17:12] <knome> dunno
[17:12] <knome> was thinkinga bout
[17:12] <knome> i don't know
[17:12] <knome> it's probably okay :P
[17:13] <elfy> I'm all for giving people information - but I'd not thing putting stuff in 'just because' is enough reason :)
[17:13] <knome> yep
[17:13] <knome> agreed
[17:13] <knome> anything else that's borked?
[17:13] <elfy> the text + the images says all if you ask me
[17:13] <knome> :)
[17:13] <elfy> I'll look now again
[17:14] <elfy> not sure if it's just running it from the script, but here when it changes to slide2 - the bubble stays still while it's changing
[17:16] <elfy> comma in line 1 of slide 2 looks wrong "On the desktop, you will see icons that can be used to access some of the most common places on your system."
[17:16] <elfy> On the desktop you will see icons that can be used to access some of the most common places on your system.
[17:16] <knome> "bubble stays"?
[17:17] <elfy> slide 1? I say no
[17:17] <elfy> looked better as text only there
[17:18] <knome> ah
[17:18] <knome> so you mean
[17:18] <knome> right
[17:18] <knome> i haven't pushed the change to remove the bubble
[17:18] <knome> i gues...
[17:19] <knome> ok, slide 1&2 fixed as you said
[17:19] <knome> but not in the main branch!!
[17:19] <elfy> slide 2 - "You can also add and remove extra panels using this dialog. " 
[17:19] <elfy> sorry - slide 2 as well :)
[17:19] <knome> done
[17:20] <elfy> because you can't remove panel 0 
[17:20] <knome> (not in main branch...)
[17:22] <elfy> did you change 'live' to 'real time' in support slide?
[17:22] <knome> real-time
[17:22] <elfy> k
[17:22] <knome> would "real time" be better?
[17:22] <knome> pleia2, US english expert?
[17:22] <elfy> not really - real-time works 
[17:23] <elfy> same slide - comma after The Official Documentation
[17:23] <pleia2> real-time is good
[17:23] <elfy> I think
[17:23] <elfy> no - scrap that :p
[17:23] <knome> hehe
[17:23] <elfy> unless you put another one after Xubuntu 
[17:25] <knome> either one works for me
[17:25] <knome> whatever makes the text more legible
[17:26] <elfy> I think "The Official Documentation, that covers many of the most common areas and questions about Xubuntu, is shipped with every Xubuntu release.
[17:26] <knome> pleia2, since you are at it, you should mention that download links need updating with each point release
[17:27] <pleia2> knome: that's the getxubuntu update
[17:28] <knome> + [17:28] <knome> not only release, also point release
[17:28] <pleia2> ooh, point release, right
[17:29] <knome> that's something too easy to overlook
[17:29] <pleia2> knome: I think searching by categories is broken
[17:29] <knome> aha?
[17:29] <knome> example?
[17:29] <pleia2> http://xubuntu.org/news/category/faq/
[17:30] <knome> how is it broken?
[17:30] <pleia2> shows one post, no way to find others
[17:30] <knome> mhm
[17:30] <knome> yeah, i guess we should change that
[17:30] <knome> boooooooriiiiiiing
[17:30] <pleia2> yeah
[17:30] <pleia2> haha
[17:31] <knome> that's really the most boring thing ever to do
[17:31] <knome> work on wordpress archive pages
[17:31] <knome> i never seem to get them "right"
[17:31] <knome> which is why i'm hesitant to touch anything on my own blog...
[17:42] <knome> pleia2, another request (from elfy) was to make the blog entries show on the front page... thoughts on that?
[17:43] <pleia2> so I thought I'd like to have them not show anymore, but now I feel sad about it
[17:43] <pleia2> at least having a title (perhaps stub) would be nice
[17:44] <knome> where?
[17:47] <elfy> my issue's really about old stuff being undiscoverable
[17:47] <knome> what pleia2 reported would fix it
[17:48] <elfy> ok - then I'll be happy with that :)
[19:49] <jhenke> hi everybody
[19:50] <knome> hello
[19:50] <elfy> hi
[19:55] <ochosi> knome: just pulled the latest rev of the slideshow
[19:55] <ochosi> not bad
[19:55] <jhenke> I've been following the xubuntu-devel ml for some time now, it seems you are a bit short of people contributing?
[19:55] <ochosi> especially the first slide is much better
[19:55] <ochosi> jhenke: very true
[19:56] <Noskcaj> ochosi, Do we have an oem install slideshow this time too? Should just need a symlink
[19:56] <ochosi> knome: i was wondering, can we make the slideshow a bit more "interactive", e.g. add some hover-effects?
[19:56] <ochosi> Noskcaj: not that i know of, is there an OEM version of xubuntu?
[19:56] <knome> Noskcaj, the OEM installer didn't work for xubuntu for 13.10, i don't know why it would work for 14.04 as no progress is done on that
[19:57] <knome> ochosi, propose and i can look at it
[19:57] <Noskcaj> knome, ok.
[19:57] <ochosi> knome: e.g. in the panel slide, when hovering the bubbles, the text-bubble could be highlighted as well as the correct part of the panel
[19:57] <Noskcaj> ochosi, There's on option during install to make an oem install
[19:57] <ochosi> knome: well... you're the king of web css around here ;)
[19:58] <Noskcaj> jhenke, Is there anything in particular you'd like to help with?
[19:58] <knome> ochosi, huhu... :)
[19:58] <knome> yeah, that's doable, i guess...
[19:58] <knome> but it might involve some js
[19:59] <jhenke> development (maybe packing), I am currently near the end of my computer science master
[19:59] <jhenke> in general I prefer more backend work ^^
[20:00] <ochosi> mm, developers are very welcome
[20:00] <ochosi> xfce is mostly written in c
[20:00] <ochosi> we have a few python apps too
[20:00] <ochosi> well, and you need to get to know the toolkit (gtk2 and gtk3) in case you're not familiar with it yet
[20:01] <jhenke> so far most of the my experience is in Java and C++, toolkits I have used Qt in Java, but well in CS you always have to learn new stuff every day
[20:02] <knome> ochosi, i deliver the panel stuff you mentioned today, and you deliver the customize text today. deal? ;)
[20:02] <Noskcaj> There's a few Xfce apps written in C++ if you want to try and provide bugfixes for those. And if you want to help with packaging, i can show you how
[20:02] <ochosi> knome: meh, ok, i'll try my best :)
[20:02] <jhenke> with Packaing the most problems for me are still make and autotools
[20:03] <knome> Noskcaj, i'll fix that for you: if you want to help with packaging, there are mentors available
[20:03] <Noskcaj> yeah
[20:03] <ochosi> specifically there is only whiskermenu that is written in c++ afaik
[20:03] <ochosi> and that's only a panel-plugin
[20:03] <ochosi> so i guess with xfce there's no way around c really
[20:04] <jhenke> I know, but C isn't really hard, I just prefer OO style programming so far
[20:04] <ochosi> (plugins are also written in vala, python or c++, but everything related to the core is c)
[20:04] <jhenke> ochosi in my bachelor we worked with C on embedded system, the kind with 4 KiB RAM ;)
[20:05] <ochosi> heh good, we want our apps to be lean ;)
[20:05] <jhenke> as long as I does not have to be register based programming :D
[20:06] <ochosi> no worries
[20:06] <ochosi> not *that* lean
[20:08] <ochosi> jhenke: anyway, best way to start is usually find a bug that annoys you or "scratch your itch"
[20:08] <ochosi> and don't hesitate to ask
[20:09] <ochosi> if people can help you, they're usually happy to
[20:09] <jhenke> yeah, I have been nagging the ubuntu kernel team since january to fix Haper-V related bugs...
[20:09] <knome> jhenke, welcome :)
[20:09] <jhenke> Haper-V = Hyper-V
[20:12] <jhenke> is there any page in launchpad that lists all source apckages in the xubuntu seed?
[20:12] <jhenke> so I have a starting point on which packages I should focus?
[20:13] <knome> we're currently fixing the bugs for 14.04
[20:13] <knome> so the best place to start is https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-t-bugs
[20:13] <ochosi> yeah, there is a seeds file
[20:14] <jhenke> ochosi yeah at some point I found that too, I was more looking like an overview page that links to the source package sites in launchpad, but I will start with the blueprint then
[20:15] <ochosi> yeah, we dont have an overview like that
[20:15] <ochosi> we try to work very close to upstream xfce
[20:15] <ochosi> so bugfixes should ideally (also) go upstream
[20:16] <jhenke> clear, no two opnions about that
[20:18] <knome> ochosi, oi, you are going to be under pressure!
[20:18] <knome> ochosi, i have the JS implementation almost ready!
[20:20] <jhenke> hmm somebody forgot to renew the tls certificate for bugzilla.xfce.org
[20:20] <ochosi> yeah
[20:21] <ochosi> that certificate thing is quite new :>
[20:21] <jhenke> it ran our yesterday
[20:21] <jhenke> in a perfect world somebody would renew it a week before that time
[20:26] <ochosi> jhenke: xfce is short on contributors too...
[20:27] <brainwash> even more than we are :)
[20:27] <jhenke> hmm my time is currently not that extensive, but how could I proceed there? 
[20:30] <ochosi> depends on what you wanna do
[20:31] <jhenke> well I could do small things that are need on the code, I do not know what is currently needed?
[20:32] <brainwash> thunar needs some love, tends to segfault quite a lot
[20:32] <ochosi> jhenke: pick your favorite/most-used component and then look for bugreports :>
[20:32] <ochosi> you can also choose the most-whined-about bugs
[20:32] <jhenke> brainwash yrah, every time you want to unmount a usb driver in 13.10
[20:33] <ochosi> but generally, going with what your passionate about is a reasonable choice, cause then you have enough energy to go through with it
[20:33] <brainwash> right, this one seems to bug many people
[20:33] <ochosi> s/your/you're/
[20:33] <ochosi> brainwash: yeah, but e.g. it doesn't bug *me* enough to debug it ;)
[20:33] <ochosi> (i rather write small features for parole that i need)
[20:33] <ochosi> knome: can i push or are you about to?
[20:34] <brainwash> I'm currently trying to fight the huge amount of launchpad reports =S
[20:34] <knome> i'm about to, but feel free to (i'll merge...)
[20:34] <knome> i'm not changing content really
[20:34] <knome> just other files...
[20:37] <brainwash> jhenke: but https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-t-bugs is a good start, if you want to help improving the forthcoming Xubuntu release
[20:40] <jhenke> has somebody looked into #1291019 already?
[20:40] <knome> bug 1291019
[20:44] <Noskcaj> jhenke, No ones fixing it AFAIK, but it's a very easy fix, just modify the patch for light-locker
[20:49] <knome> ochosi, you around?
[20:49] <ochosi> knome: yes
[20:49] <knome> hmm, diverged
[20:49] <knome> wait a sec.
[20:49] <jhenke> okay, I guess the code is in some bazaar branch on launpad?
[20:49] <elfy> jhenke: nice to see you in here talking about doing things :)
[20:50] <jhenke> elfy thanks
[20:50] <knome> ochosi, ok, pull revision 617
[20:50] <knome> and watch in awe ;)
[20:50] <knome> elfy, ^ slideshow
[20:51] <elfy> already on it :p
[20:51] <knome> nice
[20:52] <knome> changes @ desktop/panel slide
[20:52] <ochosi> knome: one sec, wanna finish my part first ;)
[20:52] <knome> hover over the boxes
[20:52] <elfy> horrible red 
[20:52] <elfy> :p
[20:52] <knome> i know
[20:52] <knome> but at least you notice it in this drafting stage
[20:53] <elfy> now - when we decide what colour the pink should be - the line should be the same - ealry warning :D
[20:53] <ochosi> meh, have to draw a 16px icon for gtk-theme-config... :/
[20:53] <elfy> concepts great though 
[20:53] <knome> ochosi, HAA HAA
[20:54] <knome> ochosi, put this on while you draw it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LM0CZZ9Uw8
[20:54] <elfy> is the theme config in the seed yet - or is it still the ppa one?
[20:55] <Noskcaj> jhenke, yes, the code is in lp:ubuntu/PACKAGE
[20:56] <jhenke> I have been avoid bzw mostly so far, any major difference to git I need ot be aware of?
[20:56] <Noskcaj> it's easier to use ;)
[20:56] <knome> jhenke, the basic commands work in a very similar way
[20:56] <knome> jhenke, bzr branch instead of git clone
[20:56] <Noskcaj> just branch, add, commit, push.
[20:57] <Noskcaj> remember to de-apply the patch with quilt pop before you work on it
[20:59] <ochosi> elfy: it should be in the seed
[21:02] <ochosi> knome: do i even have push-rights to this branch?
[21:03] <knome> no.
[21:03] <ochosi> great :D
[21:03] <ochosi> so i need to do a MR?
[21:03] <knome> push to your own and do a merge proposal
[21:03] <knome> yep.
[21:03] <ochosi> meeeeh :)
[21:03] <knome> hah
[21:03] <knome> or send me the html file in email
[21:05] <ochosi> knome: MR sent
[21:05] <knome> thanks
[21:05] <knome> i will look at it in 5 at most
[21:05] <knome> want to edit the pink color in the shots?
[21:06] <ochosi> actually i was wondering whether you wanna highlight the bubbles in a less subtle way
[21:06] <ochosi> (and anyhow, the elegance of your implementation exceeded my expectations)
[21:06] <knome> i wondering about that too...
[21:06] <knome> heh, thanks
[21:06] <knome> now we need to come up with a good color
[21:06] <knome> :)
[21:07] <ochosi> #ff00ff is the best ;)
[21:07] <knome> hah
[21:07] <knome> rgba( 255, 0, 255, 0.7 )?
[21:08] <knome> that's better than the current...
[21:08] <knome> you can poke around with that
[21:08] <knome> penultimate line in link/base.css
[21:09] <knome> ochosi, a few comments:
[21:09] <knome> desktop background vs desktop wallpaper?
[21:10] <knome> "Theme configuration" vs theme configuration tool?
[21:14] <knome> hah, we've just hit the UIFe deadline
[21:15] <knome> literally
[21:15] <knome> i merged that commit with my last merge...
[21:15] <jhenke> UIFe?
[21:15] <knome> UI Freeze exception
[21:15] <knome> meaning we will have to file some "paperwork" to get to land new stuff
[21:16] <jhenke> hmm update-manager also seems a bit volatile in +1 versions at times
[21:16] <elfy> so we've got a half done slideshow :p
[21:16] <knome> elfy, no...
[21:17] <knome> elfy, everything is actually uploaded
[21:17] <knome> BARELY
[21:17] <knome> wait, no
[21:17] <knome> everything except simon's slide :)
[21:17] <knome> hehe
[21:17] <knome> well...
[21:17] <knome> that isn't worse than poking the right people
[21:17] <elfy> jhenke: I tend to use update mangler to check it works a few times - then either terminal or synaptic - which is in my list of things to install
[21:18] <elfy> knome: I pulled it - no changes :)
[21:18] <knome> yeah
[21:18] <ochosi> knome: i'm fine with desktop "wallpaper", i just didn't want to overuse the word
[21:18] <knome> yeah, just wondering
[21:18] <knome> i'm fine with either as well.
[21:18] <ochosi> knome: i'm fine with calling it a theme configuration tool
[21:19] <knome> yeah, easier to translate as well..
[21:19] <ochosi> i guess it's still clear from the path what is meant
[21:19] <knome> yep
[21:19] <ochosi> wanna make those changes directly?
[21:19] <knome> i'll do that
[21:19] <ochosi> or do i have to update my MR ;)
[21:19] <jhenke> elfy i also prefer synaptic for package management, but update manager automatically downloads the changelogs, saves a few clicks, I am lazy 
[21:19] <elfy> :)
[21:19] <ochosi> there were some ppl who wanted to give synaptic a new UI
[21:20] <knome> ochosi, #ef8aef
[21:20] <ochosi> it was generally a good idea, but, frankly, 1) it didn't look very easy-to-use and 2) it was never implemented
[21:21] <ochosi> knome: mm, looks nice
[21:21] <knome> want to update the screenshots? :|
[21:22] <knome> the 16px theme conf icon is cool!
[21:23] <ochosi> knome: which ones, the ones of settingsman and gtk-theme-config?
[21:23] <knome> yep
[21:23] <knome> with the color i pasted you
[21:24] <ochosi> ah, hm, ok
[21:24] <ochosi> one sec, gotta fix something else first
[21:24] <knome> yep
[21:24] <knome> then we need to think about a few more (minor) thinhs:
[21:25] <knome> * color for the panel highlight
[21:25] <knome> * help slide artwork?
[21:25] <knome> * thanks slide artwork?
[21:25] <knome> * whiskermenu shot?
[21:26] <knome> oh! and
[21:27] <knome> * greeter menu profile image
[21:31] <jhenke> by the way are there any plans to define a default keyboard shortcut to open the whisker menu?
[21:32] <jhenke> with the search feature that can really boost productivity
[21:32] <ochosi> jhenke: yeah, actually i wanted to add super+space
[21:32] <jhenke> super+space is imho a bad idea
[21:32] <ochosi> why that?
[21:33] <jhenke> on some platforms that is used to switch the keyboard (input) mode
[21:33] <jhenke> especially in asia
[21:33] <ochosi> right, but e.g. in ubuntu that opens the dash
[21:33] <jhenke> to switch between latin mode and the local script
[21:33] <ochosi> i think in osx that also opens a launcher
[21:33] <ochosi> or file-search/app-execution thingy
[21:34] <elfy> making it the same as ubuntu dash sound's sensible to me
[21:34] <jhenke> I currently defined super+less by hand as it is also possible to hit those keys at the same time
[21:34] <brainwash> ctrl + esc?
[21:35] <jhenke> I think it should defintielly start with the super key
[21:35] <ochosi> i guess we want something that ppl discover easily
[21:35] <ochosi> yeah, most of our kb-shortcuts involve the super key
[21:35] <jhenke> ideally would be just the super key with not additional
[21:35] <brainwash> don't we use ctrl+esc for the app menu?
[21:36] <brainwash> the default one
[21:36] <jhenke> brainwash I think so too
[21:37] <ochosi> jhenke: yeah, feel free to code support for holding a key for >1sec into xfce4-settings ;)
[21:37] <ochosi> actually that shortcut brings up the keyboard-shortcut overlay in ubuntu
[21:37] <ochosi> (same on chrome os)
[21:38] <ochosi> bbiab
[21:38] <brainwash> and what about ctrl+alt+l for screen locking?
[21:39] <brainwash> if we really want to imitate unity
[21:39] <brainwash> :=
[21:39] <jhenke> I think it would help to use the same shortcuts as windows where possible, to make it easier for people coming from windows to xubuntu
[21:40] <jhenke> honestly i also tried super+L at the first time to lock the screen ....
[21:42] <brainwash> bug 1033174
[21:45] <jhenke> okay everybody, getting late here, see you
[21:45] <knome> nightyt
[21:45] <brainwash> good night
[21:46] <elfy> cya jhenke 
[21:51] <elfy> night all 
[21:51] <knome> nighty elfy
[21:52] <ochosi> night jhenke 
[21:52] <dkessel> yeah good night :) time to go
[21:52] <Unit193> Wow, I come in and everyone runs off.
[21:52] <ochosi> heh
[21:53] <ochosi> i'll stay a while longer Unit193 ;)
[21:53] <knome> me too
[21:54] <Unit193> Also, yeah, meta+l makes more sense to me.
[21:54] <ochosi> knome: screenshot #1: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-2014-03-17-225434.php
[21:55] <Unit193> And not for the "Windows" factor, just plain makes sense.  Also was pointed out if you use the current at a TTY, surprise!
[21:55] <ochosi> knome: #2 http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-2014-03-17-225536.php
[21:56] <ochosi> Unit193: i wouldn't mind if someone put together of meaningful kb shortcuts
[21:56] <ochosi> it's just yet another discussion late in the cycle :/
[21:56] <knome> ochosi, looks good
[21:56] <Unit193> ochosi: What's wrong with planning for Unicorn?
[21:56] <knome> pleia2, ^ your favorite theme color
[21:57] <ochosi> knome: cool, you could do the panel-highlight in the green you used for the website headers/sections
[21:57] <knome> ochosi, hmmh, i made it white already
[21:57] <knome> that didn't look bad
[21:57] <knome> but i'll check that.
[21:57] <ochosi> Unit193: nothing, but i just assume that ppl usually assume that everyone will land in the upcoming release
[21:58] <ochosi> i'd totally +1 it if you'd set up a barebone page for default kb-shortcuts as a T+1 spec
[21:59] <knome> +1
[21:59] <ochosi> since micahg still hasnt merged my x-d-s merge-requests, we could still add some shortcuts
[21:59] <knome> yyyyyyeah, looks good.
[21:59] <ochosi> micahg: you got the hint/reminder, right? ;)
[22:43] <mikodo_> hey guys, will we be able to run Xorg commands in Xubuntu 14.10 and beyond? I always use Xcalib for inverse, with my old eyes. If I cannot with Xubuntu in the future, I will have to move to move on.
[22:44] <ochosi> no idea why you wouldn't
[22:44] <ochosi> it's not like anyone is moving to wayland or mir anytime too soon
[22:45] <mikodo_> ochosi, will Mir after Xmir expires in 14.10 support X?
[22:48] <mikodo_> Wayland as I understand it, uses X code, so I expect it support Xcalib commands
[22:49] <ochosi> there are no such plans for 14.10 yet
[22:49] <ochosi> neither wayland nor mir are really realistic
[22:49] <ochosi> and X won't go away so soon
[22:49] <ochosi> so no worries
[22:50] <mikodo_> ochosi, must have changed, as last I looked, there was to be no Xmir in 14.10, but thanks for your encouraging thoughts, about things not changing too drastically anytime soon
[22:50] <ochosi> mikodo_: that's almost not the motto of xubuntu
[22:51] <ochosi> "things not changing too drastically anytime soon"
[22:51] <ochosi> ;)
[22:51] <mikodo_> ^_^
[22:51] <brainwash> and don't forget.. 14.04 is a LTS release
[22:51] <brainwash> so you can use it for some years
[22:52] <mikodo_> Thanks guys!
[22:54] <ochosi> no problem