[00:15] Is this the right place to ask about 14.04 b1 problems? [00:28] you want #ubuntu+1 [00:28] got it, thanks :) [00:29] unless it's highly related to xfce [00:29] then, maybe [00:29] well, both of my questions are, actually :) [00:29] 1) xfdesktop --reload no longer cycles the desktop wallpaper [00:29] 2) trying to change the "Time And Data Settings" to use ntp, and the attempt to install it is failing "Could not install package The necessary applications to install the package could not be found" [00:30] why xfdesktop --reload cycle the wallpaper? [00:31] ali1234: it has always done that if you use an image list .... according to the man page it's still supposed to work, but it doesn't [00:31] the way that wallpaper works in xfdesktop has been totally rewritten to support different wallpapers on each virtual screen [00:32] so it probably got broken. so report a bug please [00:32] yes, I notice that it has been rewritten, and the interface is quite different [00:32] Ok, where should I report it? Regular launchpad? [00:32] launchpad and also bugs.xfce.org [00:32] and then link the upstream report on launchpad [00:32] Ok, will do [00:33] make sure at least one of the reports has detailed steps how to reproduce [00:34] for time and date, i assume that is using the xfce clock plugin? [00:34] yeah, no worries, I have done bug reports before :) [00:34] ali1234: I think so ... I'm getting to it from the Settings dialog [00:35] yeah i see it [00:35] Settings -> Time and Date [00:35] also report that one... but only on launchpad, as i'm not sure if that's an ubuntu customization or not [00:35] ok [00:35] looks like it wants to install a package but it doesn't know which one so it just has an empty string [00:36] post links to the bug reports here when you're done please [00:37] i can't promise the wallpaper thing will get fixed. it might be the feature just disappears from the manpage etc [00:37] Ok, give me a couple minutes, still restoring access to some of my stuff after the clean install [00:37] ali1234: :( [00:37] the new thing automatically rotates the wallpaper though [00:37] I know it's a silly thing, but I like to have my desktop wallpaper rotate at :00 and :30 ... I used to do that with a cron job [00:38] yeah, the auto rotator starts the timer when you log in [00:38] well, there is a way to do that still [00:38] it doesn't do it at a specified time [00:38] yeah, i understand. but you can still do what you want [00:38] ok ... I'd be happy to know how :) [00:38] tell xfdesktop to only use one wallpaper, then use xfconf-query to change the wallpaper filename, then issue the reload [00:39] this is a more robust way... you can explicitly select any wallpaper you want [00:41] also, since we fixed up xfwm, you can use any old-style X11 wallpaper tools and get rid of xfdesktop completely (though you'll lose desktop icons) [00:41] stuff like hsetroot [00:41] ok, that looks promising ... I'm not seeing how to specify the wallpaper with xfconf-query [00:42] heh, I used to use hsetroot when I ran openbox [00:42] I might even still have the script I wrote for that [00:42] so there's a tool called "settings editor" [00:42] which is like windows regedit :) [00:42] that was like 5 years ago [00:43] in that you'll see a channel called xfce4-desktop [00:43] inside that you should see some keys called image-path [00:43] xfconf-query is the command line tool for manipulating those settings [00:44] there is also a dbus interface if you want to write a python script [00:44] dougbb: bug 1270090 [00:44] bug 1270090 in gnome-system-tools (Ubuntu) "time-admin can not install ntp" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1270090 [00:44] already reported, no solution yet [00:44] brainwash: I'll look, thanks :) [00:44] ah nice one :) [00:45] ali1234: I've never done dbus, but I see the image-path setting in the settings editor [00:46] xfconf-query -c xfce4-desktop -p /backdrop/screen0/monitor0/image-path -s [00:46] knome: we inherited it from mrpouit, who inherited it from rancell [00:46] knome, that is, lightdm gtk+ greeter [00:46] you would do something like that. without the -s should print the current value [00:47] you might not even need to tell xfdesktop to reload, it should watch the keys for changes [00:48] ah so the prblem with ntp is missing gksudo again? [00:49] so we need to switch it to pkexec? [00:49] bluesabre, you all suck ;) [00:50] thanks [00:50] but I imagine its restricted because its a core app? [00:50] dunno [00:50] nah [00:50] ... always nice to be appreciated [00:50] it all depends on LP setup [00:50] not sure if its okay to change it, so I leave it as is [00:50] * knome shrugs [00:50] need me to upload a .po file? [00:50] i can ask translation and documentation people... oh, i'm one of those myself :P [00:51] ali1234: maybe try to use the software center if installed [00:51] nah, it just sucks that my translations are suggestions, not real translations [00:51] i guess i need to apply to the finnish translator team [00:52] why don't we just ship the ntp package? [00:52] I can approve your translations since you generally don't put garbage in there L) [00:52] :) [00:52] ali1234: we ship ntpdate [00:53] ntpdate is no good for setting the system clock though [00:54] I doubt that anyone is willing to fix this [00:55] ntpdate is fine if we want our time synchronization to be 'about as good as windows' :) [00:55] i'll fix it tomorrow. geez [00:55] the user can easily install ntp manually [00:55] :D [00:55] i'm not using software centre though [00:55] synaptic is installed by default right? [00:55] no [00:55] wat? [00:56] why not? [00:56] that's the reason that it does not work in the first place [00:56] no, that's one of the things I have on my "install my stuff after a clean install" list [00:56] no, the reason it doesnt work is gksudo was removed [00:56] synaptic does not use gksudo [00:56] couldn't it use dpkg to install? or apt-get? [00:56] the bug report says it does [00:56] on the comment that you wrote... [00:57] well, it checks for both I think [00:57] it's a ubuntu specific patch [00:57] fwiw I can do the "unlock" activity just fine [00:57] oh, maybe it calls syncaptic with gksudo and not with pkexec [00:57] It pops up the sudo window, I enter my password, and the interface changes [00:57] xD [00:58] did you install gksudo? [00:58] what package is it even in? [00:58] It's trying to change the configuration from Manual to "keey synchronized ..." that fails [00:58] brainwash: no, I haven't installed anything yet [00:58] package "gksu" [00:58] .... trying to keep it stock for a bit so that I can more usefully report bugs [00:58] no i mean that panel? [00:59] gnome-system-tools? [00:59] ugh [00:59] yes [00:59] time-admin [00:59] so have fun [00:59] isn't that like, abaondoned upstream? [01:00] yes [01:00] balls. [01:00] heh [01:00] lovely [01:01] but patches are still welcome [01:01] debian/ubuntu [01:01] do they have a replacement? I can certainly install and configure ntpd myself, just trying to do things the "normal" way for the beta [01:02] yeah gnome has a replacement... it only works with gnome [01:02] there's also mate-system-tools (fork) [01:02] okay so the problem here is that g-s-t has a common/gst-package.c which attempts to be a cross platform package installation tool [01:03] i can fix this [01:03] fwiw, the "unlock" button causes polkit-agent-helper-1 to run ... that's where I'm entering my pass to get the thing unlocked [01:03] but someone will have to upload it [01:03] yeah it uses policykit to unlock [01:03] ten it uses it's own crufty mess of code to install packages with gksudo and synaptic [01:03] it should use packagekit for this [01:03] it's what it is for [01:04] maybe it does try, if it is available [01:04] sorry if that was obvious to you, I'm still learning linux internals after a long period of bsd [01:04] okay so we don't ship packagekit either [01:05] ali1234: gir1.2-packagekitglib-1.0 and libpackagekit-glib2-16:amd64 are installed [01:05] hmm [01:05] well, i'll investigate this properly tomorrow [01:05] awesome, thanks! I'll sign up for the bug [01:06] just curious ... wouldn't something like 'apt-get install ntp -y' do the trick? [01:06] no [01:06] without sudo? [01:06] "sudo apt-get install ntp -y" might though [01:06] but there would be no where to type your password [01:06] yeah ... sorry, the sudo was implied :) [01:06] ah, right, no more gksudo :( [01:07] d'oh [01:07] i don't even understand why it was removed [01:07] i mean we even have a factoid telling people to use it [01:07] !gksudo [01:07] If you need to run graphical applications as root, use « gksudo », as it will set up the environment more appropriately. Never just use "sudo"! (See http://psychocats.net/ubuntu/graphicalsudo to know why) [01:07] yeah, I was just going to ask why [01:07] so people can have some fun and configure pkexec? :) [01:09] yeah, that totally looks easier :-/ [01:09] use the software center.. or fall back to terminal? [01:10] !pkexec [01:10] oh well, it was worth a try [01:11] Ok, I just ran this: pkexec --user=root apt-get install ntp -y [01:11] and it worked [01:11] (ran it from the command line that is) [01:12] packagekit is still the best way... it's not tied to debs [01:12] If that works in the same security context as the "unlock" button creates then it should be an easy fix [01:12] *nod* I can't speak to that [01:12] i should check if they have fixed this in mint [01:12] ... although fwiw I like things that use policykit, since it works with my fingerprint reader [01:12] mate or xfce edition... they have both right? [01:13] (after installing the software for it of course) [01:13] packagekit uses policykit [01:13] ah, ok [01:13] they're all from the same place [01:13] are things with the *kit names generally related? [01:13] generally yes [01:13] Ok, that's good to know, thanks [01:13] consolekit is another, but it's dead now [01:13] replaced by systemd [01:14] systemd will probably swallow up all the other *kit stuff eventually [01:14] of course on ubuntu we don't use systemd, so we still have consolekit afaik [01:14] for now anyway [01:15] no, we have logind [01:15] + systemd-shim [01:15] =S [01:15] doesn't that use consolekit though? [01:15] no [01:15] oh, okay [01:17] hmm... mate-system-tools does not have gst-package.c at all [01:17] which is promising [01:17] Interesting ... I installed the ntp package, and now the time and date tool is already set to "update automatically" [01:18] yes, it checks if it is installed [01:18] and running [01:18] mate-system-tools just puts up a message telling you to install ntp [01:18] it's a service after all [01:19] same as g-s-t, but without the "install it" button [01:19] only a message... sounds great :D [01:19] i guess they;re still stuck on 2.0 [01:20] or they removed the debian patches [01:20] or they never had them to start with [01:20] tis is mate, not mint [01:20] yea [01:25] so the software center now pops up even more dialogs that disappear so fast I can't see them .... nifty [01:31] Ok, finally got signed in and subscribed to the time-admin ntp bug :) [01:32] is there a way to use dpkg or apt-get to find out what package xfdesktop comes from? [01:33] dpkg -S /usr/bin/xfdesktop [01:33] awesome! [01:40] bluesabre, "generally" ? :P [01:40] how do you even know... [01:40] you couldn't really know if all the xubuntu docs were "humpty dumpty" [01:42] google translate is your friend :) [01:46] launchpad failed to build a package for amd64.. did not even provide any build log, so I requested to retry it and it magically worked now [01:47] wish I could understand packaging a bit better [01:49] why isn't there a daily xfce PPA? because no one cares to maintain one? [01:52] d'oh [01:52] ali1234: I've reported the wallpaper bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-system-tools/+bug/1293287 [01:52] Launchpad bug 1293287 in gnome-system-tools (Ubuntu) "xubuntu 14.04 'xfdesktop --reload' no longer cycles wallpaper image" [Undecided,New] [01:53] oops! https://bugzilla.xfce.org/ SSL cert expired today [01:55] d'oh, apparently that site requires yet another account to be created :- [01:55] you've filed the report against.. gnome-system-tools [01:55] errr, no, I changed it to xfdesktop4 [01:56] d'oh [01:56] apparently my change didn't "take" [01:56] brainwash: do you have access to fix that? Or how can I do it? [01:57] already did [01:57] oh, thanks! [01:57] that was what came up in the dialog when I started filling in the bug report, but I changed it ... that's why I asked the dpkg question [02:00] the xfdesktop maintainer is usually very active [02:00] ok [02:01] is it worthwhile for me to create an account to file the bug on bugzilla.xfce.org as well? Or wait till I get feedback from the launchpad bug? [02:01] but we still need an upstream report, not sure if he checks launchpad regularly [02:01] ah, ok [02:01] no worries [02:02] I just ran into another little bug (leftover from previous versions) ... I changed my icon theme and my mail icon went missing [02:02] (in the menu) [02:02] brainwash: some components are auto-imported, but are frozen [02:02] so they cannot be synced from git [02:03] for their vcs-imports [02:03] but there are no daily builds [02:03] it might be possible to set more of them up, haven't had a chance [02:04] brainwash: libxfce4ui and parole are here: https://launchpad.net/~smd-seandavis/+archive/xfce-4.12-daily [02:04] (daily pkgs) [02:04] the others are messed up, I'll try to get around to fixing them this week [02:05] I was able to build xfdesktop (git) [02:05] https://launchpad.net/~thad-fisch/+archive/xfce-git [02:06] but doing this felt more like a hack, so it's not done properly I guess [02:06] yeah, poke me throughout the week to fix it [02:06] s/fix it/add packages to my ppa [02:07] and also build them for trusty [02:08] that too :) [02:09] do i need --enable-maintainer-mode? [02:10] usually helps [02:10] ok, I'll test it [02:11] I had to make similar changes -> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~smd-seandavis/libxfce4ui/debian/revision/13 [02:12] also added "make" after autogen.sh to debian/rules [02:13] but that's somewhat wrong [02:13] yeah [02:13] without it the build process would stop at some point and complain about missing files [02:13] copy the same arguments used in autogen to dh_auto_configure [02:18] I did not use any for autogen [02:19] http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/trusty/xfdesktop4/trusty/files/head:/common/ [02:20] xfdesktop-marshal.h and c were missing [02:20] make creates them [02:20] ./autogen.sh --enable-maintainer-mode [02:20] to create those files? [02:21] try it [02:21] :) [02:22] ok, what about "dh_shlibdeps --dpkg-shlibdeps-params=--ignore-missing-info" ? [02:22] had to add this too [02:23] :\ [02:25] no a clean solution? [02:25] I'll check it out [02:26] the build process stopped at some point, gave me some error message.. so I've added something to make it go away [02:26] probably not ok [02:28] I'll try to resolve it properly [02:29] btw is there some way to use the git commit message(s) for the debian changelog? [02:30] if its just a daily package, changelog doesn't really matter, but debian changelog does not store that kind of info [02:31] it would be great to see something informative when updating the package [02:32] other than "auto build" [02:32] auto builds will only display that, part of the recipe magic [02:33] ok, that's fine then [02:34] I've removed the additional "make" and added "--enable-maintainer-mode" [02:35] make[4]: *** No rule to make target `xfdesktop-marshal.c', needed by `libxfdesktop_la-xfdesktop-marshal.lo'. Stop. [02:37] I'll try it on my test system tomorrow, don't feel like abusing launchpad any longer with my failed builds :) [02:40] heh [02:44] interesting, so if I'm logged into launchpad when something crashes on my system it automatically creates a bug report ... I never knew that [02:44] I will put that to good use with some of my bugs that occur frequently :) [03:16] dougbb: bug 1293305 needs to be re-assigned also [03:16] bug 1293305 in xfdesktop4 (Ubuntu) "Several icon themes lack an "internet-mail" icon, causing it to go missing from the XFCE menu" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1293305 [03:16] xfdesktop4 is the wrong target package [03:17] brainwash: yeah, I noticed that ... this time I double-checked that i selected "I don't know" but it selected what was filled in when I started the form anyway [03:17] Very annoying [03:17] also, there doesn't seem to be a "preview" option, which I looked for to see if I could check for that problem before submitting [03:19] so what is the main culprit? the app menu (xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin), the mail reader shortcut (exo-utils) or the affected themes (various packages) [03:19] well it's the icon choice in the "Mail Reader" menu item [03:20] I think that's xubuntu-default-settings that installs those items [03:20] I'm not sure what package that comes from [03:20] bluesabre: exo-utils [03:21] /usr/share/applications/exo-mail-reader.desktop [03:21] ah [03:21] indeed [03:22] this is why I didn't guess :-/ [03:23] what would be the replacement for "internet-mail" icon? [03:25] one thing we cannot change is to edit all the different icon themes out there [03:26] brainwash: yeah, that's why I suggested placing some defaults in /usr/share/pixmaps [03:26] if there is a more specific icon in the theme, it will override that [03:26] but if there is not, the /usr/share/pixmaps version will get picked up [03:27] that makes it a fairly painless solution [03:27] the question, how should we provide this additional icon? [03:29] I suggest that we should target the app menu instead, it shouldn't hide an entry if the icon is not available [03:30] it could display a generic icon or just no icon [03:30] agreed [03:31] xfce4-applications-menu or whisker? [03:31] dougbb: whisker menu, right? [03:32] http://gottcode.org/xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin/screenshots/whiskermenu.png [03:32] It's not totally clear to me which bit is the whisker menu [03:33] in a default install it happens on the menu that is in the upper left corner of the screen [03:33] take a look at the linked picture [03:33] ... and also in the "Applications" menu if I right-click on the desktop (which I think is the same thing) [03:33] ah, yes [03:33] it is happening in the new 14.04 version, and also in the 13.x menus [03:33] also in the right click context menu of the desktop? [03:34] yes [03:34] the mail reader entry is completely missing? [03:34] that's really strange [03:34] no, just the icon [03:35] the text bit remains [03:36] so in your example, the little picture of the envelope with the old "first class" ribbon around it would be gone, but the words "Mail Reader Read your email" would still be there, as well as the spacing where the icon should be [03:36] ah ok [03:37] I changed my icon theme to GNOME which did it for me in 14.04 [03:37] there are several others that I usually install which also have the same problem [03:38] ok, bugzilla.xfce.org bug created for the xfdesktop --reload issue: https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10754 [03:38] bugzilla.xfce.org bug 10754 in General "'xfdesktop --reload' no longer cycles wallpaper image" [Normal,New] [03:38] ... this time I managed to associate it with the right package :) [03:38] the usual answer would be to "use an icon theme which provides the necessary icons" [03:38] brainwash: yes, but that's a silly answer, since several of the icon themes that ship by default have this problem :) [03:38] not to mention, the fix is painless .... just put default icons in /usr/share/pixmaps for everything in the menu [03:39] I'm just not sure, how we could ship the a generic mail icon [03:39] if you use the svg images you'll be all set [03:40] but which package does provide it? [03:40] (since obviously they'll scale to whatever context they are used) [03:40] that I can't comment on intelligently ... the how and where of packages I am still trying to learn [03:41] although I would think that at least for this issue exo-utils might be the right answer [03:41] right, this can cause some headache [03:41] yes, exo-utils [03:42] FWIW this internet-mail icon is the only one I've ever seen go missing [03:42] and an upstream report might be also required [03:42] so the problem may actually be limited to that icon, but I certainly haven't done a thorough test to see if every menu icon shows up with every icon theme :) [03:43] sadly the priority to fix this is very low [03:43] yeah, I can understand that ... but I agree that it's sad, because this is exactly the kind of thing that makes linux look "unpolished" to novice users [03:44] novice users usually don't change the icon theme [03:44] I know how to fix this problem, so to me it's a minor annoyance ... but to users trying it out for the first time it's a WTF [03:44] :D [03:44] heh, yeah, keep telling yourself that :) [03:45] number one question I get from people when I tell them I'm running Linux on my business laptop, "OOOooo, can I see what it looks like?" [03:46] but feel free to add some additional information to your report [03:46] like which icon could be used exactly [03:46] I thought I did? [03:46] oh, you mean like exactly which symlink to create? [03:46] from the elementary theme? [03:47] well I like the elementary theme, but it seems not to be installed by default on 14.04 [03:47] there are some "elementary-" versions though [03:47] basically a step-by-step explanation [03:48] which icon, where to install it, what symlinks [03:49] ok [03:49] and details about the icon file itself [03:49] which license [03:52] and at this point of the dev cycle I'm not even sure, if the change will land in trusty [03:53] yeah, understood ... I should have reported it long ago, but I'm trying to make up for lost time here :) [03:54] brainwash: speaking of menu icons... I have seen some that show in the right click menu but not the top corner menu (in studio but with xfce) They used to what has changed in T? [03:54] it's always great to have users who want to improve the distribution they use [03:55] OvenWerk1: some? can you name any? [03:55] well I try ... sometimes I get really busy so some of the trivial stuff falls by the wayside [03:55] Off the top of my head meterbridge from jack. A lot of them are audio apps [03:55] I used to do software development for a living, and I spent a long time volunteering for FreeBSD, so I always appreciated it when users sent useful bug reports [03:56] A lot of them seem to be pixmaps [03:56] I am booted in 13.10 on this machine [03:57] everything works in 13.10 [03:57] dougbb: that's awesome, open source is great, but sometimes there is just not enough man power to push forward and change things :) [03:58] exactly [04:00] brainwash: I think almost all of them are in our own metas, that is creative sw. [04:00] OvenWerk1: I assume that you are talking about the recent regression, launchers which specify an icon + extension (example.png) are not displayed properly [04:00] AH, yes that makes sense [04:01] The few I looked at the desktop file for were like that [04:01] xubuntu has replaced the default xfce app menu with whisker menu (alternative app menu) [04:02] brainwash: is that something that will be fixed? or should the apps be usiing no extension? [04:02] so we are somewhat not affected by this directly [04:02] it will be fixed soon-ish [04:03] well, I hope [04:03] OK [04:04] OvenWerk1: https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10709 [04:04] bugzilla.xfce.org bug 10709 in Applications Menu "Some icons not being displayed after upgrade to xfce4-panel-4.11.0" [Normal,New] [04:05] I wonder if it is worth overlaying a blank icon for the error one. So it doesn't look broken :) [04:06] nah, it should easily fixable, but someone has to look into it [04:07] Beyond me for sure. I can do some c stuff, but tk is about a gui as I get [04:07] the menu from the desktop right click menu works fine, so we already have a working solution [04:08] just need to "port" it [04:08]