/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/03/19/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

=== vladk|offline is now known as vladk
=== vladk is now known as vladk|offline
=== vladk|offline is now known as vladk
=== Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-afk
=== Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha
=== davidcalle_ is now known as davidcalle
jared!rmb12:00
ubottucjohnston, cyphermox, Destine, ejat,  hggdh, IdleOne, iulian, micahg,  Pendulum, PabloRubienes, freeflying, jared, s-fox, amachu, and chilicuil. Meeting time.12:00
system76chickHello!12:01
jaredEvening/morning/whatever it is in your time system76chick  :)12:01
jaredWe're just trying to rustle up enough board members now12:01
system76chickBack at ya! Very early here :) Awesome!12:02
jaredSorry system76chick, we're still working quorum. micahg and I are here we need 2 more12:09
jared!rmb12:09
ubottucjohnston, cyphermox, Destine, ejat,  hggdh, IdleOne, iulian, micahg,  Pendulum, PabloRubienes, freeflying, jared, s-fox, amachu, and chilicuil. Meeting time.12:09
jaredPing!12:09
system76chickSounds good, I'm here!12:11
pleia2I can pitch in if needed12:12
jaredpleia2: thanks that's a 3rd12:13
system76chickGood morning Lyz, thanks for being here!12:14
pleia2morning :)12:15
cprofitthere12:16
josemorning, everyone12:17
cprofittI can help as well12:17
jaredcprofitt: great you're the 4th :)12:17
pleia2shall we begin?12:19
system76chicktotally!12:19
jaredpleia2: just setting up :)12:20
jared#startmeeting12:20
meetingologyMeeting started Wed Mar 19 12:20:21 2014 UTC.  The chair is jared. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.12:20
meetingologyAvailable commands: action commands idea info link nick12:20
jaredHello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the 1200 UTC meeting for March 19, 2014. The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards12:21
jaredJust as a quick introduction we're going to be running with 2 Community Council members joining us to fill quorum, thanks cprofitt and pleia212:22
jaredThere is precedent for CC members filling in on the membership board to reach quorum so while it's not a written rule we're going to run with it12:22
jared#voters jared micahg pleia2 cprofitt12:23
meetingologyCurrent voters: cprofitt jared micahg pleia212:23
jared#topic system76chick 's membership application12:23
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: system76chick 's membership application
jaredsystem76chick: can you please give a 2 - 3 sentence introduction of yourself to the board12:23
jared#link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/system76chick12:24
system76chickMy name is Emma and I live in Colorado. I love Ubuntu and I'm the leader of the Colorado Ubuntu team.12:26
jaredsystem76chick: I see you've been involved with getting the Colorado back to being approved, can you explain a bit about what that entailed for you, is there much support over there?12:27
system76chickI'm responsible for planning all our events, updating our team wiki, responding to new Colorado users on our mailing list and encouraging local people to start using Ubuntu by helping install on their computer. For our team approval, I created a plan to get our team more active and everyone was very supportive of my initiative.12:30
jaredsystem76chick: and how have you found the good people of Colorado? Do you get many regulars pitching in to help?12:31
system76chickPeople come to my events and offer advice on how to get more active. My first release party had 20+ members.12:32
pleia2that's quite good12:32
jaredsystem76chick: good effort really, these things can be hard to get motivation for12:32
system76chickTeam members help respond to mailing list inquiries if people don't email me directly.12:32
jaredsystem76chick: good to hear, I am looking over your application and see some testimonials which is great, are there any loco members here to cheer for you?12:33
josewell, there's a loco council member, does that count?12:33
cprofittsystem76chick: how many years have you been involved with the Ubuntu community?12:33
system76chickMost of my coworkers are part of the team, so it helps to work with them every day. My boss is very supportive of everything I try.12:34
micahgjose: sure :)12:34
pleia2that's great :)12:34
jaredjose: indeed, just seeing if there are locals as well :)12:34
system76chick2 years, Jose and Lyz hopefully!12:34
pleia2it's 6:30 am there in CO :\12:34
joseI wanted to mention how responsive system76chick was during the verification process, we tried to do this as quickly as possible and with her we got everything ready to go in less than a week12:35
jaredjose: that sounds like a well functioning team if they can put it all together in under a week.12:35
system76chickThank you Jose. You were a major help in that process. Your support really kept me going!12:35
jose:)12:36
josethe team is going good as far as the LC concerns, so yep!12:36
cprofittsounds like you are doing some good work system76chick12:36
system76chickThank you! We have 5 events in April!12:36
pleia2wow, nice12:37
micahgvery nice12:37
system76chickI hope to get our team blog updated, but I need to get volunteers from our team to help. That would be a great resource for new Ubuntu users in Colorado12:38
jaredsystem76chick: seems like we've run out of questions, so thanks for that12:39
jared#vote Please vote on system76chick 's application for Ubuntu Membership12:39
meetingologyPlease vote on: Please vote on system76chick 's application for Ubuntu Membership12:39
meetingologyPublic votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)12:39
micahg+112:39
meetingology+1 received from micahg12:39
pleia2+112:39
meetingology+1 received from pleia212:39
cprofitt+112:39
meetingology+1 received from cprofitt12:39
jared+1 good work with the loco12:39
meetingology+1 good work with the loco received from jared12:39
jared#endvote12:40
meetingologyVoting ended on: Please vote on system76chick 's application for Ubuntu Membership12:40
meetingologyVotes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:012:40
meetingologyMotion carried12:40
pleia2congrats system76chick :)12:40
jared#action system76chick to be added to the Ubuntu Members team12:40
meetingologyACTION: system76chick to be added to the Ubuntu Members team12:40
system76chickI'm an Ubuntu member now? That's awesome!!!!12:40
jaredCongratulations system76chick, thanks for a well prepared application. It made the job easy.12:40
system76chickI'm so excited! I won't let you guys down, I promise!12:41
josecongratulations, system76chick!12:41
cprofittcongrats system76chick12:41
system76chickThank you, I really appreciate your support!12:41
jaredI can't see the other applicants here so I think that makes the meeting short12:42
system76chickI appreciate everyone attending and hope you all have a fantastic day/night12:43
jaredsystem76chick: keep up the great work :)12:43
system76chickThank you!12:44
jared#endmeeting12:45
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
meetingologyMeeting ended Wed Mar 19 12:45:22 2014 UTC.12:45
meetingologyMinutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-03-19-12.20.moin.txt12:45
josethanks everyone12:45
jaredsystem76chick: I've added you to the ubuntu members LP team as well now12:45
system76chickAwesome. Thank you Jared :)12:45
=== retoaded_afk is now known as retoaded
=== vladk is now known as vladk|away
=== vladk|away is now known as vladk
=== vladk is now known as vladk|offline
AlanBellhi all, IRC meeting starting shortly, please fill your glasses17:58
* IdleOne puts on his gloves and protective helmet17:59
* MooDoo watches from behind protective glass17:59
* AlanBell watches from behind protective wine glass17:59
* hggdh goes create a bit of space for more coffee18:00
* MooDoo also watches his 2 year old runnind the living room watching his wifes ipad.18:00
AlanBellok, lets get started18:02
AlanBell#startmeeting IRC Operator team meeting18:03
meetingologyMeeting started Wed Mar 19 18:03:04 2014 UTC.  The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.18:03
meetingologyAvailable commands: action commands idea info link nick18:03
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Operator team meeting | Current topic:
IdleOneo/18:03
AlanBellagenda is over here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda18:03
AlanBellnot sure where the meetingology logs are for the last meeting, but here is the day log http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/01/22/%23ubuntu-meeting.html18:05
AlanBellno specific ation items recoreded but we did quite a bit of assorted stuff since then :/18:05
knomehttp://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-22-18.01.log.html18:05
AlanBellah, silly me I was looking in the #meetingology channel not ubuntu-meeting18:06
AlanBellok, so moving on18:06
AlanBell#topic Open items in the IRCC tracker18:06
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Operator team meeting | Current topic: Open items in the IRCC tracker
AlanBelljust checking the tracker . . .18:07
AlanBellno open tickets18:07
knomewhat's the tracker URL, and is it publicly accessible18:08
AlanBellfor those that don't know, the tracker is an osticket instance running here http://ubottu.com/tickets18:08
AlanBelltickets get created when people email the appeals address18:08
knomeack18:08
AlanBellit isn't publicly accessible, but every meeting we declare anything going on in it at a high level18:09
phunyguy(here)18:09
AlanBell#topic Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council18:10
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Operator team meeting | Current topic: Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
AlanBellwe have a bug though18:10
AlanBellbug 892501 has been reopened, and we can discuss that in more detail in a later item on the agenda18:10
ubottubug 892501 in ubuntu-community "Floodbots - need a re-write to be under ubuntu operator team control" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/89250118:10
AlanBellbut first . . .18:11
AlanBell#topic The IRCC going forward18:11
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Operator team meeting | Current topic: The IRCC going forward
AlanBellso, we have a newish IRCC, following the elections in December18:11
AlanBellsince then there have been rather a lot of stressful interactions and IdleOne has sent an email of resignation to the list18:12
AlanBellso we are back down to 4 members, AlanBell Pici Tm_T hggdh18:13
AlanBellthere have also been other discussions and suggestions about the IRCC, whether it is right for the team and so on18:13
AlanBellI would be interested in feedback from others on what we do from here18:14
not_rwwo/18:14
hggdhso would I...18:15
* phunyguy ponders18:15
MooDooHas the resignation been accepted?18:15
AlanBellall options are open, we could have a vote of confidence in the current IRCC, we could have a vote on whether there should be an IRCC, we could open an election to fill the seat, we could invite the CC to fill the remaining seat18:15
not_rwwAlanBell: in terms of immediate issues, I would prefer either IdleOne un-resigning and being not-chairperson, or sticking to 4 members. I don't think electing another person is a good idea at this time.18:15
hggdhMooDoo: yes, it has18:15
AlanBellMooDoo: good question18:15
phunyguyI do not think it should go away.   The IRCC has it's place in my eyes, and to do away with it would leave a giant hole.  Just my two cents.18:16
knomedoes the IRCC have the teams support and is it trusted to steer the team?18:16
IdleOneI have already stated that I am willing to un-resign with the coditions that rww has mentioned.18:16
AlanBellquite whether a resignation can be withdrawn, I have no idea, we don't have a procedural path for that as such, but if the CC agrees I would see no problem with it18:16
ikoniaI see a problem with it personally18:17
IdleOneI think this might be something that the current four member, the CC, and myself might want to discuss.18:17
=== vladk|offline is now known as vladk
knomei don't think you can force anybody to stay a member.18:17
ikoniaIdleOne: has resigned without notice or hand over - done, move on18:17
knomeif it's not accepted, the resigned memeber can just do nothing18:18
ikoniayou have 4 members - move on18:18
AlanBellyeah, we can't "not accept" the resignation18:18
knomeand it is effectively the same as "accepting" the resignal18:18
MooDooI don't think it's as simple as that18:18
ikoniait is as simple as that18:18
phunyguyI agree that flipflopping resignations is probably not a good idea....18:18
AlanBellwhether it can be withdrawn is an open question18:18
=== Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-afk
MooDooimo if it's been 5 members, then it needs to be 5 members18:19
AlanBellwe don't neccessarily need to do anything about it18:19
knomewhether it can be withdrawn is up for the whole teams' approval, not the IRCC only18:19
ikoniaMooDoo: why ? why does it need to be 5 members18:19
ikoniawhy the magic of 518:19
AlanBellwe had 4 members for some time, we gave the casting vote to the CC18:19
IdleOneknome: why? the whole team didn't get a vote on who got elected18:19
ikoniasomeone doesn't want to do the job - thats fine, they  have left, thats fine too, why make an issue out of them coming and going18:19
phunyguy^ yes the odd number is what needs to be.  Not even.18:19
MooDoowhat phunyguy said :)18:20
ikoniaI'm sure 4 people can manage to work out a judgment18:20
AlanBellikonia: I am not really, but it would be a failure not to have this agenda item18:20
ikoniaand it can go to the CC if someone feels a real deal breaker is needed18:20
ikoniaAlanBell: it's good that it's on the agenda18:20
knome"Members of the Ubuntu IRC Members Team are eligible to vote."18:20
IdleOneknome: not all those members got to vote afaik18:21
MooDooikonia: but going to the CC just drags things out surely when it can be sorted by the power of 5?  just my two cents :)18:21
AlanBellknome: yes, that is the voting group, which isn't quite a lineup with the operator team18:21
ikoniaMooDoo: it can be sorted by the power of 4 quite easy18:21
cprofittI would prefer not to have the CC have to get involved just to break a tie18:21
AlanBellIdleOne: all that group did, just not all operators are in that groups18:21
ikoniathese aren't life and deather changes, a "hung" issue has pretty much never happened18:21
knomeIdleOne, that's a shortcoming of the voting procedure, and does by no means mean that it's okay for the IRCC to withdraw a resignation18:21
AlanBellcprofitt: mostly an accademic issue, we have never had a tie18:22
ikoniaexactly18:22
* cprofitt nods18:22
ikoniaso 4 members, move on,18:22
cprofitton the subject of resignation and withdrawl18:22
IdleOneanyway, not a big deal for me. I resigned and I'll stick to my choice. I offered to help if the need was there but I don't want to cause more problems. So I am fine with not being on the IRCC.18:22
elfycprofitt: I'd agree with that18:22
cprofittI think the question is less about the resignation and more about what it implies18:22
ikoniaIdleOne: if you want to do it - do it, if you don't thats fine too, it's just the limbo state that seems pointless to drag out18:22
knomeif the irc members team isn't up-to-date, update it18:22
IdleOneI suggest we consider this matter closed.18:22
not_rwwwith 4 people, majority is 3. with 5 people, majority is 3. shouldn't make much of a difference in reality, especially since everyone's usually on the same page18:22
cprofittI can certainly appreciate that the resignation was done in the heat of the moment while emotions were running high18:23
not_rwwespecially since IdleOne doesn't seem the sort of person to avoid giving input just because he's not on IRCC *ducks*18:23
cprofittI can understand not wanting to alow a person to un-resign...18:23
IdleOnenot_rww: I'm not one to hold my tongue that is for sure18:23
ikoniain fairness there was a real short list of candidates and people got pushed into doing it because no-one wanted to do it18:24
cprofittthe question, for me, is if IdleOne can do the job or if allowing him to come back would negatively impact the team in the future18:24
cprofitt+1 ikonia18:24
AlanBellI think my view is that withdrawing a resignation is a rule we don't have, and probably don't want to have18:24
cprofittI think that is the larger issue -- not many candidates18:24
cprofittAlanBell: I agree...18:24
cprofittaccept the resignation18:24
AlanBellregardless of the circumstances of this one18:24
phunyguythis is why I don't agree that this should be brushed off as "it happened, move on"18:25
ikoniacprofitt: that is how I see it, IdleOne pretty much stuck his name in the hat due to lack of people coming forward18:25
knomenobody answered my first question:18:25
knome20:16  knome: does the IRCC have the teams support and is it trusted to steer the team?18:25
cprofittthat does not exclude a person from serving again in the future though does it?18:25
knomewhich is definitely related to the IRCC going forward...18:25
hggdhcprofitt: no, it does not exclude18:25
AlanBellcprofitt: no, it certainly doesn't18:25
cprofittgood question knome18:25
hggdhbut knome's question is, I think, important18:25
ikoniaknome: the last IRCC term was the best there has been, the new one is made up of mostly the same people, I have no reason to doubt the individuals18:25
AlanBellso if we decided to fill the seat at the end of the term or before then IdleOne would be most welcome to stand18:25
cprofittso if it does not exclude a person from serving again... use your normal procedure to fill the fifth slot18:26
phunyguyI can agree with that.18:26
knomeikonia, i'm not doubting anything either, but i want to raise the question up18:26
phunyguyput it up to another vote... the same way the IRCC is voted upon today?18:26
IdleOnecprofitt: I agree wit not_rww another election now is just going to cause more problems. The IRCC can effectively do the job with 4 members18:26
phunyguyoh.18:26
MooDooso basically stick with 4 until the next election?18:27
cprofittthen we can go with 4... just follow the established procedure for restaffing18:27
phunyguyI just don't think it should be vacant if it dosn't have to be.18:27
AlanBellyeah, so are we agreed, carry on with 4, fill the 5th seat at some point when it seems like a good idea, but no urgency to that18:27
=== Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha
hggdh+118:27
IdleOnenot to mention I doubt there will be any more volunteers this time around especially with all that has been going on18:27
cprofittI would agree with focusing on getting the team healthy18:27
phunyguyI would volunteer, but not a member, etc.18:27
MooDoophunyguy: snap!18:28
ikoniaIdleOne: that is a real concern, especially based on the last time18:28
not_rwwphunyguy: I think it has to be. Another election would be distracting and add another person to an already-confusing dynamic.18:28
MooDooI would stick with 4 until the next election go to CC if needed and let IdleOne stand if he wants to?18:28
* MooDoo shuts up18:28
AlanBellpart of the issue was the timing of the open letter, which was just before the call for candidates18:28
AlanBell(I actually delayed the call for candidates by a few days as a result)18:29
phunyguyOK I can agree with it staying 4 members then.  We can revisit later.18:29
AlanBellbut anyhow, I think we have a route forward which is what I wanted from this agenda item18:29
Tm_Thi18:29
* phunyguy looks at his watch and taps foot at Tm_T18:30
not_rwwI'm interested in discussing knome's question next, personally.18:30
knomeif nobody "wants" to be on the IRCC, and only do it because "nobody else does", can *i* trust that the IRCC actually does their job well, and in the best intents for the team?18:30
IdleOneyes you can18:30
knomebecause?18:30
phunyguyknome: that's a loaded question.18:30
AlanBell#agreed stick with 4 people on the IRCC until further notice18:30
phunyguyknome: because that person may have the ability, but not the confidence.18:30
ikoniabefore we go any futher would it be possible to have a meeting without any more "jokey" comments18:30
ikoniaand actually disuss things without these off track comments18:31
knomephunyguy, of course it's a loaded question, everything is.18:31
IdleOneThe four members on the IRCC are most trustworthy and in all my time on this team they have always acted in the best interest of the community18:31
knomeif somebody doesn't have the confidence, can i trust they are able to deliver their best?18:31
AlanBellknome: there were more candidates than places18:31
phunyguyknome: in most cases, yes, because they are judging themselves and put more time into their decision.18:32
ikoniaknome: I suggest anyone who isn't confident mails the team18:32
hggdhknome: you mean the team's confidence, right?18:32
ikoniarather than call it out in public18:32
ikoniathen their individual issues can be addressed18:32
AlanBellikonia: calling it out in public is fine, as I said, all options are on the table18:32
ikonia(team = council )18:32
not_rwwMy main concern with IRCC (not the current iteration, this has been a general thing) is that issues tend to take forever to get resolved. I don't know if that's just me being impatient and/or expecting too much for people in charge of real-time chat, or a genuine problem.18:32
knomesure.18:32
ikoniaAlanBell: it's not really going to go anywhere is it18:32
ikoniaI have confidence / I don't - discuss18:32
not_rwwSo I have the habit of not having confidence that issues are going to get sorted out promptly.18:33
ikoniathe issue is with $user / IRC Council18:33
knomewhat not_rww said is also my concern as well18:33
AlanBellnot_rww: got a specific example?18:33
not_rwwBut that's an institutional issue. In terms of the specific people we have right now, I have confidence that they will do the position to the best of their abilities, while hampered by institutional issues.18:33
AlanBellit probably is fair that we try to slow things down sometimes18:33
knomefloodbots?18:34
AlanBelland sometimes we are slow due to availablility and reluctance to deal with things18:34
not_rwwAlanBell: LjL comes to mind. I think he's stated, and I strongly agree, that that took way too long.18:34
cprofittnot_rww: I think in many cases when you have a group of people that are tasked with making a decision that delay is part of the process.18:34
not_rwwAlanBell: FloodBots should have had a decision ages ago.18:34
cprofittI would assume 'easy topics' do not get elevated to the IRCC18:34
knomeAlanBell, reluctance... well said.18:34
cprofittit is the difficult ones that do18:34
ikonianot_rww: who actually are you ? is not_rww your normal nick name ?18:34
ikoniaare you rww ?18:34
not_rwwikonia: yes18:34
ikoniaok, cool18:34
knomeAlanBell, so if the IRCC is "reluctant" to act on things, should i trust them doing their best for the team?18:35
knomehow can we deal with that reluctancy?18:35
not_rwwI could think of others that are also, as cprofitt said, difficult decisions. But the standard IRCC response in the past has tended to be inaction, and that needs to stop.18:35
cprofittknome - reluctant does not mean unwilling...18:35
AlanBellthere are quite a few things that we did reluctantly recently, we did them though18:35
cprofittreluctant means a realization that they need to take things slowly...18:36
knomecprofitt, i acknowledge18:36
cprofittto take caution and care with them18:36
hggdhI think there is merit to both sides18:36
ikoniathe time lag to have a discussion between the members can cause delay, thats frustrating, but I don't see how that can be improved.18:36
ikoniathats not peoples fault they are in different time zone, or have to work, or look after a child18:36
knomedisclaimer: i'm not trying to cause drama and confrontation here...18:36
cprofittI agree that, at times, delay causes issues... just like quick action can18:36
hggdhI cannot speak about previous IRCCs, but I can state that the current one had some quite difficult decisions to make -- and they did get made18:37
cprofittI do have faith that everyone on the IRCC is trying to do their best... quick action or delayed action18:37
knomehggdh, i appreciate that18:37
AlanBellshall we move on?18:37
cprofittwith complex issues there is often a need to gather facts as well... which takes time18:37
knomewould it be fair to ask the IRCC to publicly response to any issue raised within some specified time, like a week?18:38
knomeand follow up weekly or beweekly about the status18:38
not_rwwEven if the public response is "we are looking into this"18:38
knome*bi-weekly18:38
ikoniaknome: that sadly doesn't work18:38
AlanBellhmm, if it is a defined item somewhere18:38
knomeikonia, because?18:38
AlanBell!appeals18:38
ubottuIf you disagree with a decision by an operator, please first pay #ubuntu-ops a visit. If you are still unhappy, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/AppealProcess for the steps you should take. If you feel the need to discuss the channel rules, please contact the ops on IRC or via the email address on the aforementioned page.18:38
AlanBell^ email it there and create a ticket \o/18:38
ikoniaknome: they tried this with an issue for me - but the delay was down to people not talking to each other, so when I got an update they had not spoken to each other and the update was wrong18:38
knomeikonia, ok.. so what you are saying is that "it hasn't worked in the past"18:39
cprofittknome: it would be fair to expect a response... as in 'we are looking at this' ... but not a decision18:39
knomecprofitt, i'm not asking for a decision18:39
ikoniaknome: totally, yes, thats the correct wording18:39
ikoniaknome: if there is a delay doing $something it normally seems to be because people are away, in which case the update is either "nothing done yet" or "wrong" becauyse the guy giving the update is out of the loop18:39
ikoniathey have tried that18:39
knomeAlanBell, so should all issues raised to the IRCC go through the appeals email then?18:39
hggdhcprofitt: that is not enough, I think. "We are working on it" is nice as a boilerplate, but updates are also necessary, with more details18:40
knomeif the IRCC give weekly notices and all of them are "nothing is done", maybe the team can question if the IRCC is fit in that situation18:40
AlanBellknome: nope, just talk to us18:40
AlanBellbut if you want SLAs on it, then use the tracker18:40
not_rwwis IRCC/IrcTeam subject to Team Reporting? i forget18:40
knomeAlanBell, then how do i get weekly notices how things are going, since it's not a specified item?18:40
knomeSLA?18:40
cprofitthggdh: I agree it is nice to have more,... but I am not sure a one week period of time is enough to expect more18:40
AlanBellservice level agreement18:40
knomenot_rww, all teams should be18:40
knomewell, i just think the IRCC should give periodic reports on *all* issues they are working on.18:41
ikoniakeep in mind these people are giving up their time18:41
AlanBellnot_rww: we did that for a while, can do it again, I have no idea who reads them, nothing happened when we stopped doing them18:41
knomeif that's not happening, the rest of the team can't know if there is any progress18:41
Tm_Tknome: periodic report like, uh, these meetings?18:41
not_rwwthen I'd suggest perhaps weekly/every two week interim team reports that get rolled into the monthly one18:41
MooDooI think a simple. hello $person, thanks for your $communication, we'll get back to you shortly, please bear with us is enought right?18:41
ikoniaknome: could it be put o the individual to chase up with the council /18:41
ikoniaeg: I raise the issue, I chase it up with them18:41
not_rwwand actually doing the monthly one ;)18:41
knomenot_rww, AlanBell: the team reporting sucks pretty much for all teams atm, but all teams are "subject" to it18:41
not_rwwand private issues that aren't suitable for there can be status-checked over the ticket thing18:42
knomeTm_T, for example, but a report every month tends to just delay and delay18:42
AlanBellso what is an "issue" that we are working on?18:42
Tm_Tknome: I know, I remember when we had monthly reports18:42
Tm_Tadding more bureaucracy doesn't sound a good way to go though18:42
ikoniaAlanBell: if you skip forward to the councils function, this query may go away18:43
knomeAlanBell, anything that an operator has raised and that needs IRCC intervention or decision that isn't acted on.18:43
knomei'm not proposing to add bureaucracy...18:43
knomei'm proposing to add communication to both direction18:43
Tm_Tknome: communication can be done in many ways18:44
knomeif an operator raises an issue for the IRCC, it would be nice to get reports back18:44
Tm_Tyes I totally agree with that18:44
knomeif it's an informal mail to the mailing list, cool18:44
knomethat would be completely okay18:44
knomeagain, EVEN IF the report was "we're still working on this"18:44
hggdhindeed. And I think this is doable, and should be done18:45
jussidepends on the issue no, arent the issues raised with the ircc meant to be private/confidential ?18:45
knomebut if that reporting happens once a month in a team meeting, you only need to postpone it twice and by that time, quarter of a year has passed18:45
not_rwwjussi: and those would go over the ticketing system instead18:45
knomejussi, obviously, if it's a private issue, report to concerned parties only18:45
AlanBellmost issues we just deal with them18:45
Tm_Tnot_rww: all issues could go to ticketing if it requires followup18:45
hggdh(an email to the ML, I mean. And, of course, private/confidential issues would have to be sanitised.)18:46
AlanBelllike someone asks for a cloak, someone needs to get access to a channel etc18:46
knomeAlanBell, that's good, in that case you obviously do not need to report18:46
knomeAlanBell, because the issue has been taken care of18:46
knomei'm talking about open issues18:46
AlanBelland some are not operator specific, like we need to clean up expired cloaks18:46
=== jackson is now known as Guest40265
AlanBelland those go on the meeting agenda18:46
Tm_TI really recommend people to use the ticketing system more actively if there is something they really see important and isn't for irc team meeting or something that can be done in #ubuntu-irc18:47
AlanBellanyhow, I think we need to move along . . so18:47
knomei'm all in for that...18:47
AlanBell#topic Paste and attack prevention in the main channels18:47
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Operator team meeting | Current topic: Paste and attack prevention in the main channels
knomebut i would think the tickets should be public for the team to view at all times18:47
knomenot only if you know the ticket number18:47
AlanBellso we had the floodbots for many years, and now they are gone18:48
knomeAlanBell, so no promise?18:48
knomeAlanBell, no response?18:48
tsimpsonknome: you can use LP for that18:48
knomeAlanBell, no action item?18:48
knometsimpson, that works for me, if the IRCC doesn't think that's too much bureucracy18:48
AlanBellknome: I will follow up with something18:48
knomethanks.18:48
Tm_Tknome: I promise to focus on communicating better, happy? (:18:48
knome#action AlanBell to follow up with IRCC reporting back to community18:49
meetingologyACTION: AlanBell to follow up with IRCC reporting back to community18:49
tsimpsonknome: it already exists https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-irc-council18:49
IdleOneregarding expired cloaks. I think after two weeks that a member has expired and has not requested to be added back on the team, the cloaks should be automatically removed. Membership is for life anyway (rare cases do happen), the ex-member can always request a cloak again later.18:49
knome#action Tm_T to focus on communication18:49
meetingologyACTION: Tm_T to focus on communication18:49
AlanBellwe have launchpad bugs, the ticket tracker, the mailing list, the meeting logs and you can *talk to us*18:49
AlanBellIdleOne: yeah, we just have to do it, time consuming stuff18:49
knometsimpson, yes, i'm okay with that, as long as it's okay for the IRCC, and there is actually responses.18:49
knomebut cheers, i'm happy with this.18:49
AlanBellso, attack prevention18:49
tsimpsonwell reporting on the LP bugs is part of the regular meeting agenda18:49
AlanBellwe had the floodbots, jolly convenient they were too, but they are gone. We said we would put together some kind of tool for preventing accidental pastes, which we did18:50
AlanBellwe put a supybot instance together, running a modified AttackProtector plugin18:50
AlanBellcode is https://github.com/AlanBell/Supybot-plugins18:51
IdleOnesource is ?18:51
IdleOnethere it is18:51
Tm_TAlanBell: are they verbose of their doings in some monitoring channel?18:51
AlanBellthe modification is to allow auto reversal of mode changes18:51
AlanBellTm_T: nope18:51
Tm_Tallright18:51
not_rwwI think it using NOTICE is already on your todo list, right?18:51
not_rwwb/c I don't care, but some people presumably do (and AntiSpamMeta does, amusingly)18:52
AlanBellthis bot was sat in the #unopaste channel for some time for a bit of testing18:52
AlanBellnot_rww: it is using notice18:52
IdleOneAlanBell: it shouldn't be18:52
not_rwwAlanBell: right, i think people were saying it /shouldn't/ be noticing channels?18:52
IdleOnewas the point :)18:52
* AlanBell thinks it was rww that asked for it to be a notice18:52
not_rwwI didn't ask for it to be a notice...18:52
AlanBellbut sure, it can not be a notice18:52
AlanBellsomeone did, I wouldn't just make that up ;)18:52
not_rwwI don't care what it is, but some/most people have crap IRC clients that care a lot about channel notices18:53
IdleOneAlanBell: only because some clients send notices to server tab. New users might not know to look there.18:53
tsimpsonI really don't think it should notice the channel18:53
AlanBellok, I will change that later18:53
tsimpsonit should either notice the user, or /msg the user, or just use a normal channel message18:53
Tm_TI agree no notice18:53
Tm_Tin channel that is18:53
not_rwwwhat tsimpson said. in decreasing preference order for me18:53
AlanBelloh, maybe you said to notice the user18:54
IdleOnechannel message is best because that is where the user is looking when the are pasting mulitple lines18:54
not_rwwAlanBell: that sounds more like something I'd say18:54
AlanBellwhat does that even do?18:54
Tm_Tnot_rww: you mean rww would say?18:54
phunyguynoticing the user is like a PM, but they see it everywhere... right?18:54
AlanBellgo on, notice me :)18:55
IdleOnephunyguy: not in all clients18:55
phunyguyoh.18:55
not_rwwdepends on the client18:55
not_rwwwhat it does is send an RFC-compliant message to the user18:55
phunyguymine has settings to put it where you want.18:55
not_rwwsome clients choose to display that in stupid ways, some don't18:55
* AlanBell sees nothing, anyone noticed me?18:55
hggdh/invite #ubuntu-br-ops18:55
tsimpsonAlanBell: you have a notice18:56
knomeAlanBell, i just did.18:56
AlanBellhmm18:56
IdleOnephunyguy: You are an experienced IRC user though. The best solution is the one that covers all the bases. A channel message would be it18:56
AlanBellless than totally effective18:56
phunyguyyep.  I agree there18:56
AlanBelloh, there they are in a status window, not hilighting me18:56
IdleOnesee18:56
AlanBellI would never notice those notices18:57
tsimpsonthe only problem with a normal channel message is that it can (theoretically) be exploited to ironically flood the channel, adding to the noise18:57
IdleOnefirst time irc user in #ubuntu gets a notice, doesn't see it and is now upset about getting Can't send to channel messages from the server18:57
* Tm_T notices AlanBell not noticing notice18:57
tsimpsonbut it's not something I see as likely18:57
not_rwwso use PM?18:57
IdleOnenot_rww: same problem18:57
knometime limit the notice to one per 30 secs.18:57
IdleOnenew users might not see the new tab18:57
AlanBellPM is less of a problem18:57
knomeor one per 1 minute.18:58
phunyguyI am horrible at noticing PMs and I am an experienced user.18:58
MooDooAlanBell: but more intrusive?18:58
not_rwwpresumably you'd have more chance to notice when you see you can't talk :P18:58
phunyguyask IdleOne, chu, and everyone else that PMs me18:58
AlanBellanyhow we don't like the notice to the channel so I can change that18:58
knomehow commonly are there several floodpastes in 1 minute?18:58
knome(from different users?)18:58
AlanBellin principal though we can get it to do different things, message the monitor channel and other stuff18:58
IdleOneA channel message is most effective because that is where the users attention is at the time they would get a message about pasting to the channel18:59
knomeor even in 5 minutes18:59
AlanBellknome: really rare18:59
knomesee.18:59
phunyguynot_rww: I thought when you are +q, it still sends to the channel on your end? Or is that only if +z is set?18:59
knomejust time limit the notice message to N minutes18:59
not_rwwphunyguy: only if +z is set, you get a server error if it's not18:59
phunyguyso some may not realize...18:59
phunyguyoh ok.18:59
phunyguywell +z can be set at any point in time.18:59
phunyguy(or unset)18:59
not_rwwanyways, apart from that bikeshedding, I think the bot is working fine as a starting point, and we can do more complicated stuff iff need be18:59
AlanBellI made the bot some time ago (17 days ago) but the general opinion was to not send it in to the channel and see how we got on without it18:59
AlanBellcouple of days ago there was a bit of a complaint about the lack of floodbots so I sent it in and it has prevented a couple of problems19:00
not_rwwi'll be back in 5 minutes19:00
knomeAlanBell, is the code available and can you link to it19:00
AlanBellknome: of course, and I did :)19:00
AlanBellhttps://github.com/AlanBell/Supybot-plugins19:00
AlanBellpull requests welcome19:01
knomejust missed that. thanks.19:01
AlanBellso I think unopaste is staying, I am not hearing howls of anquish19:01
AlanBellit isn't another eir ;)19:01
knomeAlanBell, AttackProtector is the right subdir, right?19:02
AlanBellknome: yeah19:02
knomecheers.19:02
=== Guest40265 is now known as Noskcaj
AlanBelloh, I need to push up the /notice bit19:02
AlanBellthat just isn't something to push upstream19:02
AlanBellso, a few items to improve on that, but there we are for now19:03
knomeAlanBell, i've asked lderan to look at the code and come up with a time-limiter19:03
tsimpsonit could go upstream, if it was a configuration option19:03
Tm_Tgood starting point and possibility to improve is all we need now19:04
knomecan ask him to look at that as well, if you want19:04
AlanBelltsimpson: yeah, I just hard coded the text for now, if done properly then it might be worth contributing19:04
knomeAlanBell, asked for the conf option as well.19:04
knomeAlanBell, lderan will most probably be in touch with you.19:05
AlanBellknome: sure, lderan can have all access required, no problem19:05
knomeAlanBell, yeah, i'm just *reporting back* on progress ;)19:05
knomeand noticing that somebody is actually looking at it.19:06
* rww reappears19:06
lderanhello there19:06
AlanBellwe are not committed to this path, if there is a different anti-paste solution that anyone preferes, then we can totally switch19:06
AlanBellhi lderan19:06
AlanBellanyhow, lets trot along to the factoid review \o/19:06
AlanBell#topic Factoid Review19:06
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Operator team meeting | Current topic: Factoid Review
rwwthank you for taking lead on pastebot by the way AlanBell. was good work :)19:06
AlanBellso we have a bunch of factoids and one of the issues raised in the open letter and then again in assorted bits of drama, was the over-use or inappropriate use of factoids by the team and users19:07
knomehttp://pad.ubuntu.com/factoids19:07
AlanBellso we thought we would have a look at what factoids might be in scope for that, and put the list on the pad that knome linked to :)19:07
AlanBellso, lets go through them now, everyone should have access to the pad where comments have been left19:08
DJonesEvening19:08
MooDoohi DJones19:09
AlanBellso, from the top :)19:09
AlanBell!language19:09
ubottuPlease watch your language and topic to help keep this channel family-friendly, polite, and professional.19:09
knomethat has -5 +2 (for new merging with !english)19:09
AlanBellwe had a number of people not liking this factoid and an alternative proposal19:09
AlanBellThe main Ubuntu channels require that you speak in calm, polite English. For other languages, please visit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/ChannelList19:10
AlanBell!english19:10
ubottuThe #ubuntu, #kubuntu and #xubuntu channels are English only. For a complete list of channels in other languages, please visit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/ChannelList19:10
knomeAlanBell, since the factoids are in the pad, do we need to copy/paste?19:10
AlanBellso the proposal was to make both of them different19:10
Tm_TAlanBell: I would prefer to see them merged19:10
AlanBellknome: I am going to call them one by one, doesn't matter if we have extra text here, just makes the minutes look clearer19:11
AlanBellok, so we like the new text for both english and language?19:11
Tm_TI'm ok with it19:11
AlanBell!no language is <reply> The main Ubuntu channels require that you speak in calm, polite English. For other languages, please visit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/ChannelList19:12
ubottuI'll remember that AlanBell19:12
=== vladk is now known as vladk|offline
=== vladk|offline is now known as vladk
AlanBell!english is alias language19:12
ubottuBut english already means something else!19:12
AlanBell!forget english19:12
ubottuI'll forget that, AlanBell19:12
AlanBell!english is alias language19:12
ubottuenglish has been forgotten, use '!unforget english' to edit it again19:12
AlanBellbah19:12
DJonesThe only issue I can see with that will be disagreements on what constitutes "the main ubuntu channels"19:13
AlanBellsomeone know how to do it?19:13
tsimpsonunforget it, then use <alias>19:13
knome!unforget english19:13
ubottuI suddenly remember english again, knome19:13
knome!no, english is <alias> language19:13
ubottuI'll remember that knome19:13
AlanBellah, angle brackets19:13
AlanBell!english19:13
ubottuThe main Ubuntu channels require that you speak in calm, polite English. For other languages, please visit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/ChannelList19:13
AlanBellhah19:13
* tsimpson mumbles something about the documentation19:13
AlanBellyeah, I read it once19:13
knometsimpson, documentation, BOOORIING and TL;DR ;)19:13
AlanBellin one eye, out the other19:13
AlanBell!ohmy19:14
ubottuPlease remember that all Ubuntu IRC channels share the same attitude of providing friendly and polite interaction with all users of all ages and cultures. Basically, this means no foul language and no abuse towards others.19:14
* phunyguy is running out of time :(19:14
knomecould actually made a alias of language now.19:14
AlanBellso, for this one several people didn't like it at all19:14
phunyguyyeah, these types of factoids should be more humanly conveyed.  As in, not a bot trigger19:15
AlanBell!no ohmy is <alias> language19:15
ubottuI'll remember that AlanBell19:15
AlanBellphunyguy: so we can forget things altogether, that is fine19:15
AlanBellbut there was a proposal to reword it that had some support19:15
phunyguyahh I haven't checked recently.19:15
AlanBell!enter19:16
ubottuPlease try to keep your questions/responses on one line. Don't use the "Enter" key as punctuation!19:16
AlanBellseveral forgets on this one19:16
AlanBell!forget enter19:16
ubottuI'll forget that, AlanBell19:16
AlanBell!repeat19:16
ubottuDon't feel ignored and repeat your question quickly; if nobody knows your answer, nobody will answer you. While you wait, try searching https://help.ubuntu.com or http://ubuntuforums.org or http://askubuntu.com/19:16
AlanBelllots of people liked this one19:16
AlanBell!anyone19:16
ubottuA high percentage of the first questions asked in this channel start with "Does anyone/anybody..." Why not ask your next question (the real one) and find out? See also !details, !gq, and !poll.19:16
rwwkill with fire19:16
AlanBell!forget anyone19:16
ubottuI'll forget that, AlanBell19:16
phunyguy^ yes19:16
AlanBell!behavior19:17
ubottuThe people here are volunteers, your attitude should reflect that. Answers are not always available. See http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Guidelines19:17
rwwpeople were abusing the hell out of that factoid :<19:17
rwwi like !behavior19:17
AlanBellseems fine to me19:17
AlanBell!etiquette19:17
ubottuUnsure how you should behave on this channel? See (in a private message with the bot, /msg ubottu <keyword>): !AskTheBot, !CoC, !Guidelines, !Offtopic, !Language, !Attitude, !Repeat, !Enter, !Paste, !Caps, !NickSpam, !PM, !English - And most importantly, use common sense...19:17
AlanBellfor people who can spell etiquette19:17
jussiI dont like behaviour. it feels very bossy19:17
rww!behaviour =~ s/,/;/19:17
ubottuI'll remember that rww19:17
knomejussi, and a bit too direct, "Answers are not always available."19:18
rwwjussi: it's usually a response in kind to people getting complainy about not getting answered19:18
jussiknome: yes "short"19:18
tsimpsontoo !many !see !also !keywords19:18
rwwcould be reworded tho, but the intent needs to stay19:18
knomewhy not merge with guidelines, +3 for that.19:18
=== Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-afk
knome!guidelines19:18
ubottuThe guidelines for using the Ubuntu channels can be found here: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Guidelines19:18
jussiyep19:18
AlanBellknome: merge which one with guidelines?19:18
jussiettiquette19:19
knomeactually both19:19
jussiwhich I cant spell19:19
knomeboth have +3 for merging19:19
AlanBell!no etiquette is <alias> guidelines19:19
ubottuI'll remember that AlanBell19:19
AlanBell!no behavior is <alias> guidelines19:19
ubottuYou are editing an alias. Please repeat the edit command within the next 10 seconds to confirm19:19
knomereword behavior or merge it19:19
rwwAlanBell: behaviour, not behavior19:19
AlanBell!no behaviour is <alias> guidelines19:20
ubottuI'll remember that AlanBell19:20
AlanBellspelling, I fail19:20
AlanBell!best19:20
ubottuUsually, there is no single "best" application to perform a given task. It's up to you to choose, depending on your preferences, features you require, and other factors. Do NOT take polls in the channel.19:20
knome!behavior19:20
ubottuThe guidelines for using the Ubuntu channels can be found here: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Guidelines19:20
knomeforget !best19:20
jussiI like best.19:20
rwwi dislike best19:20
rwwalso, I just remembered that !patience covers what I wanted !behavior to cover, so yay19:21
tsimpsonlet's have a poll!19:21
jussihaha19:21
knomeno,19:21
AlanBellwhat is the best factoid?19:21
knomethere was a poll already19:21
rwwi vote for !best is <alias> worst-#ubuntu-offtopic19:21
knomeand if you must take polls, take them in #ubuntu-polls :P19:21
jussiknome: serious face off for a min :P19:21
AlanBell!worst-#ubuntu-offtopic19:21
ubottuThis factoid is supposed to be pretty terrible. Please contact rodserling if you find a factoid worse than this, in order to improve, I mean pejorate, this useless conglomerate of words, thank you, well not really. Worst is also the dutch word for sausage.19:21
AlanBellyeah, that is pretty bad19:21
jussijust needs an update that one19:22
rwwnot as bad as !ettiquette19:22
IdleOneno, it's the worst19:22
jussiI think we just change roserling and IdleOne and its all good19:22
knomei think we must stop joking19:22
knomewe're discussing !best19:22
AlanBellI don't think we need a best factoid, if someone asks what the best virtualisation system is or whatever then people can ask them what their requirements are19:23
jussiyeah, back to it19:23
knome(i don't want to sit in IRC the whole evening talking about IRC)19:23
knome!forget best19:23
ubottuI'll forget that, knome19:23
AlanBellyay19:23
AlanBell!who19:23
ubottuAs you can see, this is a large channel. If you're speaking to someone in particular, please put their nickname in what you say (use !tab), or else messages get lost and it becomes confusing :)19:23
knomehas +419:23
AlanBellthat looks kinda handy19:23
knomekeep and move along19:23
knome!away19:23
ubottuPlease do not use noisy away messages and nicks in Ubuntu channels. It is annoying and unnecessary. Use the command "/away <reason>" to set your client away silently. See also «/msg ubottu Guidelines»19:23
AlanBell!away19:23
knome-4 +119:24
knomeprobably better to notice personally about that.19:24
rww"a simple PM to the user can help this", yes, !away > user19:24
AlanBellgood point, works well with >19:24
rwwit's not like it's something that really needs discussion, and people who get hit with it generally have heard about how awaynicks suck from elsewhere19:24
AlanBellok, keeping for now19:25
AlanBell!pm19:25
ubottuPlease ask your questions in the channel so that other people can help you, benefit from your questions and answers, and ensure that you're not getting bad advice. Please note that some people find it rude to be sent a PM without being asked for permission to do so first.19:25
knomecan we keep !away, but edit !away-#ubuntu to give no response?19:25
phunyguyyeah I just still hold firm that factoids like this should be more human and not a bot trigger, even if it is an !away > user19:25
AlanBellknome: sure, go ahead19:25
phunyguyjust my opinion19:25
rww"no response" don't think so19:25
knomeAlanBell, i mean, is that technically possible... and what do i set !away-#channel to?19:25
knome!pm has -1 +419:25
ubottuknome: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)19:25
knomeubottu, quiet!19:25
AlanBelldidn't I do that for !ops-#ubuntu-ops19:26
AlanBelloh, not quite, no19:26
* knome shrugs19:26
knomei can file a LP bug ;P19:26
AlanBellknome: ok, sounds like a good idea, if we can do it, lets move on :)19:26
knomeyep.19:26
AlanBellso for pm, people don't like the last sentence19:27
phunyguyI have to go to another meeting.  Farewell all for now.19:27
AlanBellI don't think it needs to be there in that context19:27
AlanBell!no pm is <reply> Please ask your questions in the channel so that other people can help you, benefit from your questions and answers, and ensure that you're not getting bad advice.19:27
ubottuI'll remember that AlanBell19:27
AlanBell!details19:28
ubottuPlease give us full details. For example: "I have a problem with ..., I'm running Ubuntu version .... When I try to do ..., I get the following output: ..., but I expected it to do ..."19:28
AlanBell!work19:28
ubottuDoesn't work is a strong statement. Does it sit on the couch all day? Does it want more money? Is it on IRC all the time? Please be specific! Examples of what doesn't work tend to help too.19:28
rww. !work is funny and pisses users off, !details is fine but a bit overused19:28
AlanBellI like details, not sure why you would want to merge it with work19:28
AlanBellso lets move on from details for now19:29
AlanBell!shout19:29
ubottuPLEASE DON'T SHOUT! We can read lowercase too.19:29
knome!forget shout19:29
ubottuI'll forget that, knome19:29
knomethanks!19:29
rww\o/19:29
AlanBellOK, WHAT IS NEXT?19:30
rwwoh19:30
rwwso19:30
rwwyou guys have a bunch of dangling aliases now19:30
rww!caps19:30
ubottuError: unresolvable <alias> to shout19:30
knomeAlanBell, I CAN'T HEAR YOU19:30
rwwi call not it on fixing those19:30
knomerww, aww for not being able to do that...19:30
knomerww, i mean, understanding that19:30
AlanBellrww: ok, fine, we can go through those later19:30
rwwcan just remove as we find, i guess19:30
rww!forget caps19:30
ubottuI'll forget that, rww19:30
knome!forget scrolling19:31
ubottuI'll forget that, knome19:31
AlanBellwell I can go through what we forget in this meeting and fix them19:31
knome!forget return19:31
ubottuI'll forget that, knome19:31
=== Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha
knome!forget anybody19:31
ubottuI'll forget that, knome19:31
rwwnext up, !o4o19:31
AlanBell!o4o19:31
ubottuSome topics are controversial and often end in negativity. Take care on subjects like war, race, religion, politics, gender, sexuality, drugs, potentially illegal activities and suicide. The topics are not banned; stating your position is ok, but trolling, baiting, hostility or repetition are not. If you are asked to stop, do so politely. Disputes to !appeals, please adhere to !freenode Policy and the !CodeOfConduct19:31
knome!forget somebody19:31
ubottuI'll forget that, knome19:31
rwwstrong keep on !o4o19:31
knome!forget !someone19:31
ubottuI know nothing about !someone yet, knome19:31
knome!forget someone19:31
ubottuI'll forget that, knome19:31
knome!forget expert19:31
ubottuI'll forget that, knome19:31
AlanBello4o seems worth keeping to me19:32
AlanBell!stop19:32
ubottuNOTICE - Please stop this discussion NOW. See !offtopic for things that are inappropriate to discuss in this channel. Continuing will result in action being taken.19:32
rwwand it's one of those factoids that has had iterations to remove bugs and is brushing up against the size limit, and I don't think it needs editing again19:32
knome!forget good19:32
ubottuI'll forget that, knome19:32
knome!forget better19:32
ubottuI'll forget that, knome19:32
rwwi'm on the fence about !stop19:32
knome!forget preference19:32
ubottuI'll forget that, knome19:32
knome!forget ppolls19:32
ubottuI know nothing about ppolls yet, knome19:32
rwwknome: (/msg ubottu plz)19:32
AlanBellstop wasn't on the list, do we like it19:32
knomerww, i thought for logs/history19:32
knomebut okay.19:33
knomethen i can't follow the discussion!19:33
rwwthen do it later :P19:33
AlanBellknome: lets bash the aliases at the end of the meeting19:33
knomedoing it now in PM19:33
AlanBellso, !stop, do we like that?19:33
rwwiirc !stop's intended for operator use, not user use19:33
tsimpsonin which case, it's dumb19:34
rwwmainly been used in -ot that i've seen19:34
tsimpsonin which case, it's more dumb19:34
rwwagreed19:34
AlanBelldoesn't make sense there19:34
rwwdiscussions don't usually get to a point in #ubuntu where it'd be necessary to be so harsh19:34
AlanBelland you could just mute people, or set +m if it was that bad19:35
tsimpsonand then 'forget' to unset it19:35
AlanBell!forget stop19:35
ubottuI'll forget that, AlanBell19:35
rwwin -ot, I'm more of a fan of using !o4o's "stop when asked" clause and asking for stop, in a different tone from !stop19:35
AlanBell!netsplit19:36
ubottunetsplit is when two IRC servers of the same network (like freenode) disconnect from each other, so users on one server stop seeing users on the other. If this is happening now, just relax and enjoy the show. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netsplit19:36
jussithats a good one19:36
AlanBell!lol19:36
ubottuPlease don't use "LOL" and "OMG" and so forth on a regular basis. This is IRC, not IM, and using those lines on their own is not required, and it is rather annoying to the rest of the people in the channel; thanks.19:36
AlanBell!forget lol19:36
ubottuI'll forget that, AlanBell19:36
knome!inappropriate19:36
ubottuThe current discussion topic is inappropriate for this channel. Please stop.19:36
AlanBell!nickspam lol19:36
rww!netsplit =~ s/^/<reply> A netsplit is /19:36
ubottuI'll remember that rww19:36
knome^19:36
AlanBell!nickspam19:37
ubottuYou should avoid changing your nick in a busy channel like #ubuntu, or other Ubuntu channels; it causes excessive scrolling which is unfair to new users. Please set your preferred nick in your client's settings instead. See also « /msg ubottu Guidelines »19:37
rww-1 on !inappropriate existing19:37
=== charles_ is now known as charles
knome!forget inappropriate19:37
ubottuI'll forget that, knome19:37
jussigood19:37
rwwi have the same opinion of !nickspam as of !away19:37
AlanBellnickspam seems popular in the pad19:37
=== vladk is now known as vladk|offline
knomeyes,19:37
knomesame as away19:37
AlanBellkeep, but stop it working in-channel if we can19:37
knomemake it PM-only.19:37
AlanBell!u19:38
ubottuU is the 21st letter of the modern latin alphabet. Neither 'U' nor 'Ur' are words in the English language. Neither are 'R', 'Y', 'l8', 'ryt',  'Ne1' nor 'Bcuz'. Mangled English is hard for non-native English speakers. Please see http://geekosophical.net/random/abbreviations/ for more information.19:38
jussiI dont like that one. feels short and grumpy.19:38
knome!forget lolops19:38
ubottuI'll forget that, knome19:38
knome!forget lolcats19:38
ubottuI'll forget that, knome19:38
tsimpsonyou could just get rid of the first two sentences of !u19:38
rww. !no, u is <reply> Shortened English is difficult for some non-native English speakers to read. Please use full words instead. Thanks!19:39
knomeor merge with !language.19:39
AlanBellmuch better19:39
tsimpsonlike that, yep19:39
knome!language19:39
ubottuThe main Ubuntu channels require that you speak in calm, polite English. For other languages, please visit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/ChannelList19:39
jussirww: ++19:39
Picihi19:39
rww!no, u is <reply> Shortened English is difficult for some non-native English speakers to read. Please use full words instead. Thanks!19:39
AlanBellhi Pici19:39
ubottuI'll remember that rww19:39
jussiheya Pici19:39
knomeisn't mangled english essentially "other language"19:39
rwwknome: no, it r txt liek dis19:39
AlanBell!piracy19:39
ubottupiracy discussion and other questionably legal practices are not welcome in the Ubuntu channels. Please take this discussion elsewhere or abstain from it altogether. This includes linking to pirated software, music, and video. Also see !guidelines and !o4o19:39
knomerww, yes... looks like other language to me :)19:39
AlanBellpopular one19:39
AlanBell!noob19:39
ubottuAcronyms or statements like noob, jfgi, stfu, or rtfm are not welcome in this channel. Period.19:39
rww!-piracty19:39
rww!-piracy19:40
ubottupiracy aliases: warez, illegal, cracking - added by elkbuntu on 2007-03-11 14:52:32 - last edited by Pici on 2011-07-19 19:43:0219:40
rww!-cracking19:40
ubottucracking is <alias> piracy - added by LjL on 2007-11-07 22:23:0619:40
knome!forget noob19:40
ubottuI'll forget that, knome19:40
rww. !piracy doesn't cover cracking. Should it?19:40
rwwalso, !noob was +2/-2, not really a forget-without-discussion19:41
AlanBellrww: possibly, however penetration testing, wireshark and wifi stuff that is in the repos is entirely supportable19:41
rwwthen !forget cracking19:41
AlanBellyeah19:41
knomerww, can reintroduce if people feel strongly.19:41
jussinoob should go from my point of view, tipping it to +2/-319:41
PiciWe historically do not support the actual use of things like aircrack-ng even if they claim they are using it for legal purposes19:42
rwwon second thought, all the *f* acronyms in !noob are covered by !language19:42
knomei've already !forgot all the aliases for !noob19:42
knome(but i can reintroduce)19:42
knomebut i think it's just misuse of the factoid system19:42
AlanBellI think the policy remains, stfu and so on are not acceptable, we just don't need a bot factoid to say so19:42
knomeexactly19:42
jussiexactly19:42
knomebasically,19:42
rwwalrighty, i'll go with that19:42
knomeall factoids that are "op use only" should go.19:42
knomewell19:43
knomedon't take that black and white :)19:43
rww. !noob wasn't op-use-only, but I agree19:43
rww!google19:43
ubottuWhile Google is useful for helpers, many newer users don't have the google-fu yet. Please don't tell people to "google it" when they ask a question.19:43
PiciThere are op-only factoids?19:43
knomebut there are usually better ways to handle19:43
knomePici, !stop was mentioned as one19:43
knomePici, and not *technically* ops-only19:43
knomewhich is why they also should be dropped...19:43
jussiI think a lot of the factoids that tell/order users what they must or must not do are not that useful/somewhat rude19:44
knome!piracy ?19:44
ubottuknome: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)19:44
AlanBellso !google had some support19:44
AlanBell!work19:44
ubottuDoesn't work is a strong statement. Does it sit on the couch all day? Does it want more money? Is it on IRC all the time? Please be specific! Examples of what doesn't work tend to help too.19:44
knomewhat happened to !piracy19:44
knomedid we decide something?19:44
AlanBell!piracy19:44
ubottupiracy discussion and other questionably legal practices are not welcome in the Ubuntu channels. Please take this discussion elsewhere or abstain from it altogether. This includes linking to pirated software, music, and video. Also see !guidelines and !o4o19:44
knomekeep?19:44
Piciyes19:44
knome(i guess)19:44
knomeok19:44
AlanBellkeeping it19:44
AlanBellbut !work is less popular19:44
knomei'm actually thinking -1 !google19:44
AlanBell!details19:45
ubottuPlease give us full details. For example: "I have a problem with ..., I'm running Ubuntu version .... When I try to do ..., I get the following output: ..., but I expected it to do ..."19:45
rwwPici: re: aircrack and such, I'd appreciate some pondering from IRCC about that and perhaps clarification on if it is or isn't supportable, since different ops seem to disagree in the past about it19:45
AlanBellso !work and !details are similar19:45
knomeit sounds like something an op or and experienced user would throw at a not-so-experienced helper19:45
rwwi dislike work19:45
* phunyguy is back19:45
AlanBellrww: that has previously been discussed, I will look it up, the CC was involved I think19:45
jussitheres another one I dont remember that says something similar but better19:45
AlanBell!no work is <alias> details19:46
ubottuYou are editing an alias. Please repeat the edit command within the next 10 seconds to confirm19:46
knome!details | jussi19:46
ubottujussi: Please give us full details. For example: "I have a problem with ..., I'm running Ubuntu version .... When I try to do ..., I get the following output: ..., but I expected it to do ..."19:46
jussino19:46
rww!-work19:46
ubottuwork is <alias> doesn't work - added by Seveas on 2006-06-18 16:49:49 - last edited by AlanBell on 2014-03-19 19:46:1119:46
rww!-doesn't work19:46
ubottudoesn't work aliases: work, doesntwork, doesnt work, didnotwork, didn't work, dontwork, works - added by Seveas on 2006-06-18 16:49:40 - last edited by Seveas on 2007-03-02 18:20:4619:46
jussiit starts with e and is a long word19:46
PiciI like work19:46
AlanBell!no doesn't work is <alias> details19:46
ubottuI'll remember that AlanBell19:46
rww!elaborate19:46
ubottuPlease elaborate, your question or issue may not seem clear or detailed enough for people to help you. Please give more detailed information, errors, steps, and possibly configuration files (use the !pastebin to avoid flooding the channel)19:46
AlanBell!work19:46
ubottuPlease give us full details. For example: "I have a problem with ..., I'm running Ubuntu version .... When I try to do ..., I get the following output: ..., but I expected it to do ..."19:46
jussirww: yup19:46
knomeyes!19:46
rwwi prefer !elaborate to !work19:47
jussiyes, as do I19:47
knome¡no, details is <alias> elaborate19:47
knome^19:47
rww!-details19:47
ubottudetails aliases: doesn't work, example - added by LjL on 2008-11-06 23:26:4919:47
rwwknome: +119:47
jussiknome: also +119:47
knomeand work too.19:47
knome!no, details is <alias> elaborate19:47
ubottuI'll remember that knome19:47
knome!no, work is <alias> elaborate19:47
ubottuYou are editing an alias. Please repeat the edit command within the next 10 seconds to confirm19:47
AlanBell!work19:47
rww!work19:47
ubottuPlease elaborate, your question or issue may not seem clear or detailed enough for people to help you. Please give more detailed information, errors, steps, and possibly configuration files (use the !pastebin to avoid flooding the channel)19:47
knome!no, work is <alias> elaborate19:47
ubottuYou are editing an alias. Please repeat the edit command within the next 10 seconds to confirm19:47
AlanBellalready done, it is a chain of aliases19:47
knomewhat?19:47
knomestupid.19:48
rwwknome: it's fine :P19:48
knome:)19:48
AlanBellknome: relax19:48
rww!elaborate =~ s/,/;/19:48
ubottuI'll remember that rww19:48
knomeNEVAR!19:48
AlanBell!please19:48
ubottuAvoid following your questions with a trail of "Please, help me", "Can nobody help me?", "I really need this!", and so on. This just contributes to making the channel unreadable. If you are not answered, ask again later; but see also !repeat and !attitude19:48
AlanBell!forget please19:48
ubottuI'll forget that, AlanBell19:48
rww!repeat19:48
ubottuDon't feel ignored and repeat your question quickly; if nobody knows your answer, nobody will answer you. While you wait, try searching https://help.ubuntu.com or http://ubuntuforums.org or http://askubuntu.com/19:48
rww!attitude19:48
ubottuThe guidelines for using the Ubuntu channels can be found here: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Guidelines19:48
jussithat one gets abused... (repeat)19:48
knome#action knome to edit !repeat-#xubuntu to be more exact on xubuntu-specific links19:49
meetingologyACTION: knome to edit !repeat-#xubuntu to be more exact on xubuntu-specific links19:49
AlanBellit does, someone pastes a question, repeats hours later and someone tells them off for repeating :)19:49
PiciI'm a little confused as to where the decision to remove some of these is coming from... like !please19:49
AlanBellPici: the pad19:49
knome¡no, repeat is <alias> elaborate19:49
rwwknome: -119:49
rwwknome: they're different issues19:49
AlanBellif there is overwhelming -1s on the pad or +1s then I wassn't discussing in great depth19:50
Pici-119:50
knomemmh, yeah, i acknowledge that..19:50
knomejust an idea19:50
rwwAlanBell: !please was +4...19:50
rwwoh no it wasn't19:50
* rww searches better19:50
AlanBellrww: no, it wasn't19:50
Picisorry, I missed that on the pad19:50
knomewould !forget repeat19:50
rwwyeah, ignore me, I failed at ctrl-f19:50
Picino19:50
Picirepeat is used a lot.19:50
Picirepeatedly19:50
AlanBellis that good or bad?19:50
knomei guess that proves my point. :)19:51
rwwI think it's fine if it's not abused.19:51
PiciWell, I was making a joke. It is used when it is necessary.19:51
phunyguyjokes are not allowed here.19:51
knomehmm,19:51
PiciRemember that some people prefer to see things that ubottu says as 'official' despite other users telling them the same thing.19:51
knomedrop anything off !repeat except the last sentence?19:51
knomeWhile you wait...19:51
rwwhrm?19:52
knomedunno19:52
knomei'm just throwing ideas.19:52
AlanBellif we can't decide now, lets move on19:52
AlanBell!punctuation19:52
ubottuPunctuation is good, but its overuse hurts readability. Please refrain from adding many ?'s or !'s to the end of your sentences. See also !enter19:52
Picik19:52
knomeforget...19:53
Piciwe got rid of enter :/19:53
knomeproves we should drop punctuation as well :P19:53
Picibut then I can't do things like19:53
Pici!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!punctuation19:53
ubottuPunctuation is good, but its overuse hurts readability. Please refrain from adding many ?'s or !'s to the end of your sentences. See also !enter19:53
rww+1 Pici19:53
knomepunctuation is requested 141 times19:54
rwwi changed my mind, kill it19:54
knomeapproximately 100 of those is Pici playing with the bot19:54
Picipunctuation can probably go, I just liked !enter19:54
Piciknome: probably :P19:54
knome!forget punctuation19:54
ubottuI'll forget that, knome19:54
jussiyup19:54
AlanBell!coc19:54
ubottuThe Ubuntu Code of Conduct is the document that spells out etiquette in the Ubuntu community | http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/conduct  | For information on how to electronically sign the CoC, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SigningCodeofConduct | Watch http://static.screencasts.ubuntu.com/videos/2010/12/22/004-SigningCoC.ogv19:54
AlanBellkeep that one19:54
Picikeep19:54
phunyguythis is a good one19:54
AlanBell!canibeanop19:54
ubottuIf you are interested in joining the Ubuntu IRC Team, take a look at both http://www.siltala.net/2010/03/24/ops-teams-applications-announcement/ and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam/OperatorRequirements for info on the process and requirements.  You can also learn about what the job entails from people in #ubuntu-irc.19:54
rww!coc =~ s/  / /19:54
ubottuI'll remember that rww19:54
Picikeep19:55
phunyguyalso a good one19:55
Picibeanop19:55
rww!canibeanop =~ s/  / /19:55
ubottuI'll remember that rww19:55
knome!meta19:55
ubottuIf you would like to help in #*ubuntu* but it just goes too fast to spot interesting questions, try joining #ubuntu-meta and watching for questions there (note that it is NOT a support channel, however, and questions should still be answered in #*ubuntu*)19:55
tsimpsonmay be a good idea to move the blog link to the wiki somewhere19:55
AlanBellyeah, I will move the content to the wiki19:55
knome+1 for tsimpson's idea19:55
Piciaye19:55
rww#action Alanbell to move !canibeanop link content to wiki19:55
meetingologyACTION: Alanbell to move !canibeanop link content to wiki19:55
rww:319:55
AlanBellok, that concludes the factoid review \o/19:55
knomemeta?19:55
phunyguyphew19:55
rwwno it doesn't there is !meta :P19:56
tsimpson-meta is dead19:56
rww!forget meta19:56
ubottuI'll forget that, rww19:56
knome!forget meta19:56
ubottuI know nothing about meta yet, knome19:56
AlanBellknome: coming up next . .19:56
rwwI WIN19:56
knomeboo!19:56
AlanBellI will send a summary of what has changed to the list later19:56
AlanBellI will extract it from the minutes19:56
rww#action AlanBell to send a summary of factoid changes to ubuntu-irc@19:56
meetingologyACTION: AlanBell to send a summary of factoid changes to ubuntu-irc@19:56
AlanBell#topic Metabot and Bestbot - clean up, or re-implement19:56
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Operator team meeting | Current topic: Metabot and Bestbot - clean up, or re-implement
knomehmm, please19:56
knomeone more19:56
knome!ask19:56
ubottuPlease don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line and in the channel, so that others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-) See also !patience19:56
phunyguythat one is beat to hell also19:57
rwwalias to !elaborate19:57
PiciI'd like to shorten that one up19:57
knomerww, not quite the same issue... :)=19:57
rww. !elaborate is my new favorite thing19:57
PiciIt used to be just "Don't ask to ask, just ask"19:57
knomesounds alike to "someone"19:57
rwwbrb on alt19:57
knomejust different wording19:57
knomeand !someone was dropped19:58
MooDoosorry guys brb little one playing up19:58
tsimpsonI don't see the relevance to !patience either19:58
knome!no, patience is <alias> repeat19:58
ubottuI'll remember that knome19:58
AlanBellI think !ask is OK19:58
jussiI say we keep ask in some form - Ive seen many channels using similar wording and its quite a well known/said thing. maybe a link to how to ask wiki is good19:58
knome(it *was* the same factoid)19:58
phunyguyWhile this factoid is probably OK, it just gets used a lot19:58
phunyguymore than it should.19:59
AlanBellpeople are hesitant to ask sometimes19:59
knomedoes throwing a factoid help their thresold to ask?19:59
phunyguyexample, "anyone here use $someapplication?"19:59
phunyguyabout 4 people slam them with the bot factoid20:00
tsimpsonI'd remove everything in parentheses and the see also20:00
knomei vote -1 to !ask20:00
phunyguysame, -120:00
PiciI'd keep the words in the parens and remove the second and 3rd sentences20:00
knomeit is essentially the same as !someone20:00
knomeand all the reasons why we decided to drop that applies to !ask20:00
knomewasn't the goal to reduce bot usage?20:00
knomeif we really miss the factoid, then reintroduce it.20:00
phunyguy^20:00
knome</rant>20:01
AlanBellthe goal is to have a more human atmosphere20:01
not_rwwo/20:01
Picihumans :(20:01
knome_webchati have lag.20:01
knomei have lag.20:01
AlanBellI read about humans in a book once, I am an expert now \o/20:01
tsimpson!lag20:01
ubottuYou have lag, I don't have lag20:01
PiciHow long until helpers complain that ubottu isn't working because we removed a bunch of factoids?20:02
knometsimpson, was lag between my irc shell and freenode.20:02
phunyguyPici: good question... and that question can be answered pretty easily20:02
phunyguy(their question I mean)20:02
MooDooback sorry about that20:03
Piciphunyguy: yep.  And as always, I always tell them to suggest a factoid if they think it should exist.20:03
knomeso can people express their thoughts on !ask with -1 +1 -+020:03
phunyguyyes, I agree20:03
knomei'm not sure what the general opinion is.20:03
phunyguyin case it was missed, -120:04
knome-1 from me too20:04
knomei need to go really soon.20:04
knomeanybody +1's !ask?20:05
phunyguyyeah this has been an exceptionally long, but productive meeting so far.20:05
AlanBellas always this stuff is reversable, if we get complaints we can undo it20:05
knomeso forget?20:05
AlanBellI don't have a strong opinion on ask20:05
knomeok, mind if i forget that and the aliases then?20:05
IdleOne!ask20:06
ubottuPlease don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line and in the channel, so that others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-) See also !patience20:06
knomeask, help, justask, metaquestion, problem, questions, question20:06
IdleOnekeep20:06
Piciask and help are useful.20:06
Pici+1 on ask20:06
AlanBellok, lets keep it, now for this topic item :)20:06
phunyguyok, so keep it20:06
knomeask == help20:06
knomeok, i'm off20:06
phunyguy \o20:07
AlanBellas well as the floodbots we no longer have the use of metabot and bestbot20:07
AlanBellwe have the option of trying to reimplement the functionality, or cleaning up the channels and wiki pages and factoids20:07
AlanBellany thoughts?20:08
IdleOneclean up20:08
phunyguy+1 to clean up20:08
AlanBellmy view is to clean up20:08
AlanBellok, in the absence of any strong support for reimplementing . . .20:09
not_rww+1 clean up20:09
AlanBell#action ircc to clean up behind bestbot and metabot20:09
meetingologyACTION: ircc to clean up behind bestbot and metabot20:09
AlanBell#topic Review #ubuntu-ops-team and how we as a team use the various communication channels20:09
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Operator team meeting | Current topic: Review #ubuntu-ops-team and how we as a team use the various communication channels
AlanBellwe touched on this earlier20:09
AlanBellhow the IRCC and team in general should use communication tools available20:09
AlanBellthere has been some suggestion that we should use the -ops-team channel less and use -irc more for topics that are appropriate there20:10
AlanBellwe could close -ops-team if people want it to not exist20:10
phunyguywell I like -ops-team, but I can live without it.20:11
IdleOne-ops-team is useful when trying to resolve and ban with a user and I'm not sure what to do20:11
phunyguyyes, I agree there20:11
Pici+120:11
IdleOneI say we keep the channel, but try and move much of the discussion as possible to -irc20:12
Piciand a place for other ops to chime in without having to try to talk over the proceedigns in -ops20:12
IdleOne^20:12
phunyguyright, purely for operator issues/assistance that need to be private.20:12
phunyguybut discussing things related to the IRC team should be in -irc imo20:12
phunyguyrecent events being a good example.20:13
not_rww+1 all above20:13
AlanBellok, I can reflect that in the minutes, a general preference to use -irc more20:13
AlanBell#topic Operator Applicants20:13
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Operator team meeting | Current topic: Operator Applicants
AlanBellnext item is operator applicants, now we were doing this on a per-cycle basis after UDS20:14
AlanBellthen UDS got a bit confusing, but we have just had one, so lets process some queues20:14
AlanBellhttp://paste.ubuntu.com/7121828/20:14
IdleOneI think this should be tabled for now. I would like to discuss letting the channel ops pick and chose their own ops for the channels. IRCC can keep a veto power just in case it is needed.20:14
AlanBellthat is the list of all the channel groups on launchpad and the people who have applied to join20:14
Piciwhat are the numbers?20:15
AlanBellPici: launchpad karma I think, for no particular reason20:15
Picio20:15
IdleOnechannels should be viewed as individual sub-teams to the irc-team.20:15
phunyguyI picked #ubuntu-ops by accident, that can be removed.20:15
AlanBellphunyguy: sure, will do20:16
phunyguyI have not been an op long enough for that20:16
phunyguywait, I did apply for #ubuntu... am I missing it in there?20:17
not_rwwyou're not in the proposed list for https://launchpad.net/~irc-ubuntu-ops20:17
AlanBellIdleOne: channels are individual subteams on launchpad, and we do invite people to comment on applicants, I think for now we have to follow the process we have, which isn't completely incompatible with what you are saying20:18
not_rwwalso, I'd like to postpone this topic until next meeting because I have input on some applicants that I want to express in private, and didn't realize it was coming up today20:18
not_rwwi am aware that this is my fault for failing at reading20:18
IdleOneAlanBell: understood. I'll propose for next meeting perhaps.20:18
phunyguy:(20:18
phunyguyI am 99.9% sure I applied in #ubuntu.  Oh well.  I will reapply.20:19
AlanBellok, so I need to clarify where we are right now :)20:19
AlanBellthe process is that at some point (now) we put out a call for operators, and look at who is already in the queue20:19
AlanBellat that point we sort out any administrative errors in the queues, like that phunyguy in the wrong one, and that deactivated account20:20
AlanBellthen we have a feedback period20:20
jussithere is a clause there (iirc) that the ircc can just "approve" people if it wants20:20
IdleOneAlanBell: I think that the IRCC voting on who should be an op in which channels is a little bit too much micromanaging. Let the channel ops decide who they think is best for their channel. I know many of us have ops over a lot of the same channels, but I think the channel ops are best placed to know who will be a good fit.20:20
AlanBell!canibeanop20:21
ubottuIf you are interested in joining the Ubuntu IRC Team, take a look at both http://www.siltala.net/2010/03/24/ops-teams-applications-announcement/ and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam/OperatorRequirements for info on the process and requirements. You can also learn about what the job entails from people in #ubuntu-irc.20:21
AlanBellApply to join the appropriate operator team(s) on Launchpad. For example, if you wish to become an #ubuntu-devel operator, you should apply to join ~irc-ubuntu-devel-ops on Launchpad.20:21
IdleOneanyway, I'll drop it for now and propose something for a later meeting.20:21
AlanBellWhen the Ubuntu IRC Council notices the need to have more operators in a particular channel or channels, they will send an email to the ubuntu-irc mailing list. After this email is sent, there will be a one week period for any last minute applications and/or for applicants to finish updating their wiki pages. During this time Testimonials and concerns can be emailed direct to the Ubuntu IRC Council mailing list, or listed on the ...20:21
AlanBell... applicants wiki page.20:22
AlanBell^ that is where we are now20:22
AlanBellso, I am letting people know who is in the queue right now, and going to send a mail to the list opening the one week period20:22
phunyguyplease include me in #ubuntu on that email, I hit the button on LP.20:23
AlanBellthe channel ops are best placed to give feedback20:23
jussiahh the clause was about dropping applicants, not approving them20:23
MooDoook sorry all, my little one is playing up, i'm gonna have to bail.20:24
AlanBellyup, we can remove applicants from the list if they are not appropriate20:24
AlanBellno problem MooDoo o/20:24
MooDoothanks all20:24
IdleOneI'm out too. Good meeting thanks all.20:25
AlanBellso, yes, operators in a channel are well placed to give feedback on the applicants, I will try and stress that20:25
IdleOneoh, one more thing. idoru can go bye bye.20:25
AlanBellwe just don't have a channel operator voting process at the moment, but sure, one could be proposed and thought through20:26
AlanBellin practice I would be surprised if the IRCC in any way ever "overruled" feedback from a channel operator20:26
AlanBellthough actually, it probably has happened that channel operators didn't give any feedback and were later surprised that someone was appointed20:27
AlanBellanyhow, that is where we are, and I will be mailing the list accordingly20:28
AlanBell#topic Membership applications20:28
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Operator team meeting | Current topic: Membership applications
AlanBellno membership applications on the agenda, but pretty much anyone who is an op would find it easy to demonstrate a significant and sustained contribution if they applied20:28
AlanBell#topic Remove idoru from #ubuntu-offtopic and keep it out of there - rww20:29
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Operator team meeting | Current topic: Remove idoru from #ubuntu-offtopic and keep it out of there - rww
AlanBellso, idoru, any support for keeping it? anyone know why it is there?20:29
not_rwwbecause we used to get spambots in there, probably20:29
not_rwwi very much want it gone20:29
phunyguyI fear teh spambots will come back and then we will want idoru back20:29
phunyguythe*20:29
jussinot_rww: why?20:30
AlanBellthe fun things about decisions on IRC is that nothing is final20:30
tsimpsonwhat's the problem with it being there anyway?20:30
AlanBellso is it randomly klining people?20:30
not_rwwjussi: because it has not killed a spambot in a long while and has killed legitimate users, and freenode is bad at keeping an eye on klines it sets to make sure they're legit20:30
AlanBellon a technical level, what do we have to do, ask staff to get it to part?20:31
not_rwwplease refer to the comments I made when it got removed from #ubuntu, they apply to #ubuntu-offtopic too except more strongly20:31
not_rwwAlanBell: yes20:31
phunyguyor kickban it20:31
not_rwwphunyguy: it's not affected by bans20:31
phunyguyo.20:32
AlanBellok, anyone actively want to keep it?20:32
jussinope20:33
AlanBell#agreed idoru to be removed from -offtopic20:33
AlanBell#topic Any Other Business20:33
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Operator team meeting | Current topic: Any Other Business
phunyguyit can be added back again20:33
AlanBellit can20:33
not_rwwi have an AOB item20:33
AlanBellso, anyone else want to discuss anything else20:33
AlanBellgo ahead not_rww20:33
not_rwwI was pondering ways of making #ubuntu less broken recently and thought that perhaps adapting the 5-a-day bug system to support would be interesting. I'm curious if anyone else has thoughts / thinks this is a good idea.20:34
phunyguyI don't know what that is.20:34
knomeadapting in what way?20:34
not_rwwi.e., trying to cultivate sustained contribution to #ubuntu by encouraging people to answer/participate in 5 support questions a day20:34
AlanBellinteresting20:35
phunyguyeehhh20:35
not_rwwknome: one component of 5-a-day is tracking success over time, and I'm not sure how one would do that on IRC20:35
AlanBellbit of gamification20:35
knomenot_rww, yep.20:35
phunyguyI have a bad feeling abotu it, but I am also new.20:35
not_rwwAlanBell: indeed, which is good or bad depending on your opinion of gamification20:35
knomei don't think it's a bad thing to come up with new ways to motivate people to help20:35
knomebut what's the "reward", since not_rww said, there's not really an easy way to track it20:36
not_rww(or is there...)20:36
knomesounds like either manual work or, ugh, pushing all questions through a bot20:36
phunyguyI am not saying that coming up with ideas is bad20:36
phunyguyI was actually talking about the idea.20:36
knomephunyguy, so what's bad with the ideA?20:36
AlanBellknome: not neccessarily20:36
jussimetabot used to identify questions...20:36
not_rwwor just voluntary reporting to a bot when you answer/participate in a question20:36
phunyguyknome, I don't really know, I just get a weird feeling about it.20:36
not_rwwsince it's not like gaming it is going to get you much, and you're limited to getting "points" for five a day20:37
knomejussi, but not if they were answered/who answered them, and if that was succesful or not20:37
phunyguylike it won't last.20:37
phunyguyStuff like that works on forums, not sure it would work on IRC20:37
not_rww"if that was successful" i don't think that's possible/useful to track anyway. not all bug reports are successful either, but they still counted20:37
not_rwwanyways, was just one of my random thoughts. but if it's not a good idea, we probably should ponder what /is/, since i have bad feelings about the quality of #ubuntu support right now20:38
knomei think it would be fair to shout out to people that "you can do 5-a-day with irc support too, though you won't get rewarded points for that"20:38
phunyguynot_rww: I do agree that support has been a bit terrible there.20:38
AlanBellit would be possible to have a points system and leaderboard type thing20:38
knome#xubuntu has lately went into a factoid-bashing mode too20:38
phunyguy9 times out of 10, I go in there to ask a question, then spend 3 hours helping others when I get no answer20:39
knomemaybe we should have a "IRC supporter day"20:39
knomewith some sessions on how to be helpful, or something20:39
knomecould also do sessions about bot usage etc.20:39
knomejust award points per lines said per day, and kick unhelpful/offtopic people :P20:40
AlanBellgrep for "thanks knome" or something20:40
knomehmpf,20:40
not_rwwAlanBell: thankbot!20:40
not_rww"lines said per day" encourages bad behavior, unfortunately20:40
knomehaven't heard that too much...20:40
not_rww( http://www.jonobacon.org/2010/08/24/articulating-irc-contributions-concisely/ )20:40
knomenot_rww, sure... but that's why i said kick unhelpful/offtopic people20:40
not_rwwknome: yep, but I prefer systems that don't encourage such things, much easier than working around such encouragement20:41
AlanBellnot_rww: yeah, thankbot, but more seamless20:41
knomea thankbot would be manual rewarding20:41
not_rww( I've dealt with this problem a lot with public pisg stats tracking in various channels )20:41
knomedoing it automatically is hard20:41
phunyguyso, this has gone an hour and 41 minutes over schedule already.20:41
phunyguyjust throwing that out there20:42
not_rwwyeah, we should probably table this and ponder it for future20:42
AlanBellphunyguy: yes, it has, I know20:42
knomephunyguy, at least things get dicussed20:42
tsimpsonperhaps start a ML discussion20:42
AlanBellany other AOB?20:42
phunyguyyes this is true.20:42
jussiyes20:42
AlanBellgo ahead jussi20:42
jussithe ircc hasnt actioned my expiring from teams, why not?20:42
AlanBellnot got round to it yet, wasn't on the top of the priority pile :)20:43
AlanBelland I wasn't sure if you had finished expiring from thigns20:43
knomejussi, file a bug.20:43
jussialso, on the incentive thing, perhaps even takng nominations for quarterly "helper of #ubuntu" or somethign?20:44
not_rwwjussi: i note you can remove your own flags in ChanServ20:44
not_rwwnot that you should have to, but it's an option20:44
jussinot_rww: unfortunately when I tried I wouldnt let me. why?20:44
not_rwwjussi: /msg chanserv flags #channelname jussi -*20:45
not_rwwerm, jussi01 **20:45
jussi[11:38:49] [ChanServ] You are not authorized to execute this command.20:45
not_rwwif you use the correct nick?20:45
jussianyway, lets not fill up meeting with this20:45
AlanBellwe have quite a lot of expiries to catch up on, I have a launchpad script that I compare with chanserv lists, it just takes quite a lot of hours to do20:45
AlanBellany other AOB20:46
AlanBell#endmeeting20:46
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
meetingologyMeeting ended Wed Mar 19 20:46:28 2014 UTC.20:46
meetingologyMinutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-03-19-18.03.moin.txt20:46
knomehm, yes20:46
knomeright, no20:46
knome;P20:46
AlanBellthanks all, that was epic20:46
phunyguy^ indeed20:46
AlanBellnext time knome, add it to the agenda20:46
phunyguyI am exhausted20:46
knomeso i can ask again after one month?20:46
knome:P20:46
knomethanks!20:47
knomethat's... responsive ;)20:47
AlanBelland in future I won't let things overrun, we just had a heap on today and I knew people would be grumpy if I bumped things to next month this time :)20:47
AlanBellknome: you can add it to the agenda right now20:47
jussimeh20:47
jussioverrun is fine if there is important stuff I think20:47
knomeyeah, i can add it to the agenda now, but it will be discussed in one month20:47
knomeif things overrun, run a meeting more often20:47
phunyguyjussi: yes, it's just tough on folks in the USA that are still at work.20:47
AlanBellthings can be discussed at any time20:47
phunyguy:)20:48
AlanBellthings get *decided* in meetings20:48
not_rwwjussi: righto, so we're not in a meeting. I'm pretty sure that would work if you did flags #channelname jussi01 -*20:48
not_rwwjussi: because I've done it a bunch of times personally, so...20:48
jussinot_rww: maybe, Ill give it a go later20:48

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!