/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/03/19/#ubuntu-uk.txt

=== Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away
JollyValueDunno if anyone's gonna see this but for Commodore C64 fans .. #kickstarter projects (2)01:18
JollyValueA) C64: A Visual Commpendium - Launch Video ... march 1st starts .. seems alright. I guess. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhX4_nUFUD001:19
JollyValueB) C64 In a new biscuit tin for £75 plus courier from US running : MMBASIC (MaxiMite BASIC) https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/818225433/maximite-bbx-the-modern-day-basic-language-compute?ref=live01:24
JollyValuenote that (B) finishes in when (A) starts, at the beginning of March ~1401:25
JollyValueI guess a reference for an Raspi Pi happy coders for MMBasic is on their page under the FAQ - http://goo.gl/H5iqIp01:27
JollyValue#beddington Offsk.ies01:28
JollyValueleaves01:28
daftykinswat.01:28
diddledanerr02:27
diddledanwas that a troll?02:27
diddledanpretty damned random and in the middle of the night02:28
Myrttithat was redtape06:15
Myrttiprobably06:16
mappstoo mcuh ketamin again06:48
mapps:_06:48
mapps:)06:48
mappshm]06:51
MooDoohello all07:00
* popey stabs directhex with the flu07:45
MartijnVdS cruel07:46
popeywell.. I woke up to see this notification...07:46
popey23:40:11 < directhex> daftykins or popey, whomever is more awake gets secret info. THE OTHER WILL BE LEFT IN THE DARK07:46
MooDoopopey: I bet he's not even up himself yet!07:47
MooDoopopey: that wasn't nice posting that pic of your breakfast on twitter :p08:07
bashrcmorning08:11
MooDoomorning bashrc08:14
popeyhah08:14
popeyit was yummy08:14
MooDoo:p08:15
jussipopey: Darkness is good... :P08:16
jussiso being left there isnt bad...08:16
jussior in other words "ignorance is bliss" :D08:16
directhexi was up at 5:45. thanks, toddler!08:18
MooDoodirecthex: that late eh ;)08:18
popeyI was woken by a cat trying to login to my imac08:21
popey*boop*08:21
popey*boop*08:21
jussipopey: hahahah08:21
popey*b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-boop*08:21
jussipopey: we don't believe you, everybody makes up cat on keyboard stories.... :P :P :P :P08:22
popeythis is the only reason I got up early and made a nice brekkie for wifey08:23
popeybecause I was already up thanks to sky08:23
popeymirv has the best keyboard + cat story08:24
popeyhttp://www.kernelcat.com/08:24
MooDooLOL08:25
DJonesMorning all08:29
MooDoomorning DJones08:29
DJonesHey MooDoo08:30
jussiMooDoo: do you actually do something at work or just sit on irc...? :P08:32
bashrcthe latter08:32
* jussi giggles and shoots nerf rockets at MooDoo08:33
MooDoojussi: oi shut it08:33
jussihehehe08:33
jussiMooDoo: got splinters in your butt? :P08:33
MooDoojussi: ow ow ow ow ow08:33
MooDooI work with two monitors so can have irc on one and work on the other, i'm just that good :)08:34
jussiMooDoo: pfft :P08:34
popeyThe good news is, you're probably having a better day than this guy. http://i.imgur.com/J7Qw7Ka.gif08:35
MyrttiChromecast \o/08:36
MooDoooh dear08:36
jussipopey: thats just nasty...08:37
jussipopey: did you end up buying a hdmi splitter?08:38
popeyno, I'm waiting for you to tell me which one to buy ☻08:38
jussipopey: heh, not the one I bought in nycase... :(08:39
popeyYes, I noted that ☻08:39
jussioh and that word always brings this clip to  mind :P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE08:39
directhexpopey, thanks for the pointer to kdenlive, it's doing exactly what i needed it to08:56
directhexWith the courier to be delivered08:58
directhex19/03/201408:37Received by the recipient's local courier08:58
directhex;o08:58
brobostigonmorning boys and girls.08:59
JamesTaitGood morning all; happy Chocolate Caramel Day! :-D09:01
directhexyou set a clip with a "composite" transition, and that transition lets you pick arbitrary scaling values09:02
bigcalmGood morning peeps :)09:11
brobostigonmorning bigcalm09:14
Myrttihttp://helloworldopen.com/09:28
MooDoomorning bigcalm brobostigon Myrtti :)09:29
popeydirecthex: yay09:35
* foobarry opens a chocolate orange in defiance09:39
MooDoofoobarry: good man09:39
brobostigonmorning MooDoo09:42
MooDooanyone here done LPIC-1 ?09:43
Myrttipopey: did you order new socks?09:47
popeyno09:47
MyrttiI'm not too keen on Argyle myself09:47
foobarryare we talking those nice socks? they are a bit pricey though09:47
popeyMyrtti: foldio just arrived09:49
Myrtti30USD? depends on what you're used to paying09:49
foobarryM&S fresh feet09:49
BigRedSMooDoo: I've started working towards it and seen everyone else here pushed through it if that's any help :)09:52
MooDooBigRedS: yeah i'm applying for more canonical jobs that mention lpic so I think it's where i need to go09:52
Myrttifoobarry: that's not comparable, these are flight compression socks09:57
directhex4th tutorial video recorded10:42
Myrttipopey: did your Foldio tracking code ever work on parcelforce website?10:48
popeynever tried10:48
Myrtti:-D http://www.nrk.no/piipshow/about-the-piip-show-1.1157564211:10
MartijnVdSNorweirdgians ;)11:11
directhexfinns are worse: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLKiknDbFjA&feature=kp11:13
davmor2Morning all11:14
MooDoomorning davmor211:14
davmor2MooDoo: loved you black selfie :)11:15
MooDoodavmor2: yeah I thought it was funny :D11:15
MooDooIf any one is interested and I hope I'm not out of line in posting this but there is a IRC  Operator team meeting today at 18:00UTC if you're interested :D11:23
Laneyops plz11:30
Laneyman I miss op begging11:30
Laneywhat happened to that?11:30
MartijnVdSServices ;)11:34
MartijnVdStry visiting ircnet some time.. ops begging galore11:34
MooDooLaney: say it at the meeting :p11:34
Laneywell, you could beg to be added to the ACL11:35
LaneyI guess I only hang around in grown up channels now ...11:36
MooDooLaney: I joined the launchpad teams for ubuntu and ubuntu-offtopic, noy saying i'm gonna get it, but I can ask :D11:36
MooDoohttp://tumbleweed.popey.com/11:48
Laneycan't talk; watching budget11:53
directhexok, pc mostly built... off to maplin to fill in minor gaps11:53
MooDoooh yeah budget11:55
foobarrywhat a waste of time. took the bus to the bank and couldn't open an account because they didn't have any forms11:56
davmor2foobarry: try first direct I've heard good things of them by a lot of their users12:00
davmor2foobarry: they are just online/phone12:00
DJones"minor gaps" thats the cooling system ventilation12:00
foobarryhow do you prove things about yourself? birth certs etc?12:00
MooDooyeah birth certificate, driving license, utility bill12:01
davmor2foobarry: no idea12:01
foobarryhow do you do that with an online bank?12:01
MooDoosometimes they ask you to fax off the information or email it to them....trouble is if you've not got a scanner etc.12:02
davmor2foobarry: I have no idea they get around it some how12:02
foobarrythis is for my kids12:02
MooDooah12:02
davmor2foobarry: I said I've heard good things about them, I don't use them but the 2 guys I know who have accounts with them swear by them and won't go anywhere else12:03
foobarryFD don't seem to do kids accounts12:07
jussiFD?12:09
foobarryfirst dfirect12:11
jussiMooDoo: its called a smartphone camera :P12:11
jussiI _love_ the banking systems in Finland - Im sure Myrtti can say similar (with no mentions of a certain bank and java sw)12:12
Myrttitheyve moved out of using it12:18
neurooh good, nearly Budget time12:26
foobarry"oh good"12:44
jussiMyrtti: oh, that is nice news13:06
=== alan_g is now known as alan_g|lunch
Laneycome on13:21
Laneygive the whole allowance to cash isas13:21
Laneyexcellent13:21
neurotypical schizophrenic tory budget13:22
neurotobacco duty to continue increasing as there's "no health benefit"13:22
neurobut alcohol duty escalator scrapped, and beer duty cut by 1p?13:22
foobarrysounds ok13:33
jussiBEER!!!13:33
foobarrycigs are bad, alcoholl can be enjoyed in moderation and keeps populace happy13:33
neuroi'm pretty sure booze is unhealthy13:33
jussineuro: only in unhealthy quntities13:34
foobarrynot the amount i drink13:34
jussiespecially wine, red wine is very good in small quantaties13:34
foobarryi drink port13:34
foobarryin a very small glass13:34
foobarrywith a piece of shortbread13:34
jussiI love port.13:34
neuroso if i have one cig a week, i should be penalised?13:35
foobarryyes13:35
neurobecause?13:35
jussiit only damages you.13:35
davmor2foobarry: you put pieces of shortbread into a small glass of port!  There is something wrong with you dude ;)13:35
foobarryyou probably poinced it off someone13:35
foobarryand didn't buy a packet13:35
foobarrysmoking is a luxury way to kill yourself.13:36
jussialcohol in moderation is good/ok. cigarettes in moderation are still bd13:36
* neuro lights up another death stick13:36
neurostuff the lot of you :)13:36
jussiheh13:36
popeyneuro: have you considered robo-fags?13:36
neurono13:37
foobarrywhy not?13:37
popeyin know aquarius loves to jack-in and charge up his leccy-fags13:37
neuroit's just as hazardous as smoking real cigs and it's completely unlicensed and unregulated13:37
foobarrythey will ban ecigs indoors soon13:37
neurogood13:37
foobarrycitation needed13:37
popeyi suspect they won't13:38
foobarry" it's just as hazardous as smoking real cigs"13:38
popeyand it'll be down to the individual company13:38
foobarrypopey: they are doing it in states13:38
neurodo you have any idea what's in these cylinders?13:38
popeyyou do if you mix your own13:38
popeyi see a number of people making their own mix on t'internet13:38
foobarryalso you are not breathing in smoke13:38
popeyseems quite a popular pasttime13:38
davmor2popey: yeah passive vapouring :D13:38
neurofoobarry: you're still breathing in chemicals13:38
popeyyeah13:38
foobarryalso, a smoker saying"do you know whats in those things is a bit much"13:38
neurois it?13:39
shaunothe most common concern is that because they're not regulated, we don't actually know what the long-term threat is.  "just as dangerous" is as unprovable as "no danger at all"13:39
neurothat too13:40
popeyyeah13:40
popeyno long term scientific study13:40
popeylets vape while we can! :D13:40
neuroat least with cigs i know what i'm getting into13:40
neurolol13:40
popeysee 40 years ago with ciggies13:40
MartijnVdSjust don't do either :P13:40
neurono13:40
neuroit's called an addiction for a reason13:41
foobarryi thought it was a hobby13:41
neuronot at these prices13:41
popeythe speaker of the house has a hilarious accent13:41
foobarryit was a hobby when you started13:41
popeyis it from liverpool?13:41
MartijnVdSneuro: that's "resignation to being addicted"13:41
neuropopey: deputy speaker13:41
popeyah13:41
foobarrymilliband is such a tool. he was the annoying kid in class13:41
neurohe's no more a tool than the rest of the muppets in parliament13:41
neurothe commons is a joke13:41
neurolisten to them just now13:42
foobarrythe wallace and gromit likeness is too much for me13:42
shauno(and "you're still breathing in chemicals" is scare-mongering.  you're breathing in chemicals even if you don't smoke.  silly oxygen-addicts)13:42
neurothis is meant to be an opposition response to the budget, not a classroom full of ADHD-afflicted kids13:42
foobarrydon't touch that h2o13:42
neuroshauno: whatever makes you sleep at night :)13:42
shaunodioxyhydroxide has been proven fatal though ;)13:43
MartijnVdSshauno: it's also been proven that the more birthdays you've had, the likelier you are to die!13:43
shaunothis is why we have the RNLI trying to prevent overdoses13:43
foobarrygood news about 40% rate of tax13:43
neurois it?13:44
foobarryargh13:44
popeyNo Girls Aloud!?13:44
foobarryi thought they were raising it loads13:44
foobarrythey aren't13:44
neurogood13:44
foobarry:-|13:46
foobarryThreshold for 40p income tax to rise from £41,450 to £41,865 next month and by a further 1% to £42,285 next year13:47
foobarryhave to continue giving loads to charity then13:47
foobarrywill they call the new combined ISA a tessa?13:47
neuro"The New ISA"13:48
MartijnVdS40p income tax or 40%? :)13:48
neurosame thing13:48
MartijnVdSneuro: nah, £42000-40p != £42000-40%13:48
neuroit means 40 pence on the pound13:48
neuroso 40%13:48
MartijnVdSah13:49
jussiis it not only applied to earnings above 42k?  ie. if you earn 50k, the 40% tax rate is only appied to the ~8k about 42?13:49
neuroand we operate on a graduated income tax rate13:49
neuro£0-31,865 = 20%13:50
neuro£31,866 - 150,000 = 40%13:50
neuro>£150,000 = 45%13:50
foobarryjussi: yes13:50
neuroplus a tax free allowance of £0-10,000 = 0% where eligible, i.e. first income13:50
foobarrybut if you give to charrideee then that comes off the top of your income13:51
neurobut if you give to charidee, then you don't have that income any more13:51
* neuro is mercenary, a fiver to ORG every month aside13:51
foobarryyes, but since most people do, its handy to reclaim the tax13:51
foobarrysome people give 15% of their earning13:52
neurogood for them13:52
neuroglad they can afford it13:52
neuroi can't13:52
foobarrythats cos u smoke ;)13:53
* foobarry ducks13:53
neuronowt to do with that13:53
neuroi'm just now emerging from Stupid Times with Credit13:53
ali123440% tax rate shift is just a tax cut for the rich13:55
neuroyup13:55
MartijnVdSOur (dutch) taxes are €0-19645 -> 36.25%; €19646-56531 -> 42%; €56532 and up: 52%13:55
neuroplus they benefit from the increase in tax free allowance13:55
neuroholy crap13:55
foobarryhigh tax is OK if it works13:55
ali1234yes13:55
foobarrye.g. denmark13:55
foobarryUK and US suffer from scale13:56
MartijnVdSneuro: There's a HUGE way to get money back for home owners though (some huge percentage of interest paid on mortgages is deductible)13:56
ali1234i think a large number of people don't understand how the tax system works13:57
=== alan_g|lunch is now known as alan_g
ali1234they think that if they get a pay rise from 40k to 41k then that means they suddenly pay twice as much tax13:58
foobarryMIRAS gone canned in the 90s13:58
MartijnVdSali1234: s/the tax system/anything in the world/13:58
foobarryali1234: although they do lose a lot of other benfits13:58
foobarrye.g. child benefit13:58
ali1234i think employers specifically use this confusion to say things like "well, if i give you a pay rise it will put you into the next tax bracket and you will end up with less" (which is of course impossible)13:58
foobarrynot a very sliding scale13:58
neuroso don't have kids13:58
foobarryyou should be able to pool the tax with your spouse13:59
foobarrymy wife is a full time mum, so i should be able to aggrgate our earnings13:59
neuroif your wife is a full time mum, what earnings is she getting?13:59
ali1234no you shouldn't14:00
foobarrywe are a family unity14:00
foobarryunit14:00
ali1234and also all the food and stuff you buy for your family should be taxed as payment in kind14:00
neuro:)14:00
foobarrywe're not a company14:00
neurothere you go then14:01
foobarryi'm not alllowed to pay my wife 10k pa14:01
neurosure you are14:01
foobarryu sure?14:01
neuroas long as you pay the Class A NICs and the PAYE etc14:01
ali1234that's below minimum wage14:01
ali1234so no, you;re not14:01
neurohehe14:02
foobarrycould pay her for 16hrs/week part time14:02
neurowhy?14:02
ali1234as long as she works 24 hrs a week in another job, and then pays tax on that too14:02
dwatkinsI didn't think we had any laws about minimum wage.14:02
neuro£6.31/hr14:02
dwatkinsah ok, perhaps it was the US that doesnt have them.14:03
neurohttps://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates14:03
foobarrylots of plumbers "employ" their wife14:03
dwatkinsI was half listening to something on the radio the other day about it.14:03
foobarryto be paid from the company14:03
neurodwatkins: US statutory minimum wage is $7.25/hr14:03
popeyMyrtti: http://imgur.com/cWxhOty,Y4QJ8ub  first couple of pics taken with my foldio14:03
foobarryi can “If your wife is not a director of the company, and does not have a contract of employment, then you must then you must pay her at least the National Minimum Wage.”14:03
neurowhy "must" you pay her?14:04
neurothis is all very confusing14:04
Myrttipopey: nice14:04
davmor2popey: lego model would be better ;)14:06
popeytrue14:06
foobarryif i had a company then i could pay her 10k pa and she would not pay tax on it14:06
neurofoobarry: you'd still have to pay NI14:06
foobarrycorporation tax is much lower than 40% income tax14:06
foobarryIT contractors seem to do OK out of the arrangement14:07
neurono, they really don't14:07
ali1234yeah in my opinion you should have to pay it on top of income tax14:07
davmor2popey: it would also tell you how good the colours were too :)14:07
ali1234effectively, it should be mandatory for you to pay your wife minimum wage + VAT (because you're not a company) and then she should register as self employed and pay income tax on that money14:08
ali1234i think this is the most fair arrangement14:08
neuroVAT isn't payable on wages14:09
ali1234it's not wages14:09
neuroit's a salary14:09
ali1234not it's not14:09
neuroso it's a supplier arrangement then?14:09
ali1234exactly14:09
ali1234it's as if you hired someone to cook and clean your house 40 hours a week14:09
popeythats not why people pay their wives though14:10
ali1234i know it's not14:10
ali1234i am not being totally serious either14:10
dwatkinsmany plumbers also accept cash quite happily14:10
popeys/plumbers/workers/14:10
ali1234foobarry suggested he should be able to use his wife's unused personal allowance against his own tax14:11
ali1234i was merely explaining why he already gets a good deal :)14:11
dwatkinsThat wouldn't surprise me, it's only plumbers I've had say that they will accept cash.14:11
shaunocash is 'acceptable', wink wink nudge nudge14:11
neuro"pooling" of income, to me, sounds discriminatory at any rate14:13
neuros/at any rate/in any case/ just to make it clear i'm not talking about tax rates14:13
neurowho would qualify?14:13
neuroif applicable to married couples, would that cover civil partnerships?14:14
neuroand it would be discriminatory to unmarried couples and single workers14:14
shaunothat's sort of how it works here. I can use my wife's tax credits14:14
neuroyeah, tax credits are one thing14:14
neurobut it's quite another to say "husband earns £31K, wife earns £24K, let's bundle it to £55K and only charge tax rates on the bundle"14:15
shaunoso, eg, while she was unemployed, my ceiling for base-rate tax was increased14:15
neuroand in fact, that's probably a more lunatic way to do it14:15
neurosince you'd lose out on two sets of tax free allowances, and you'd get hit with the 40% rate instead of not at all14:15
ali1234that's not what anyone suggested14:16
neuro13:59 <foobarry> my wife is a full time mum, so i should be able to aggrgate our earnings14:16
ali1234yes14:16
ali1234and also double all the rate thresholds14:16
neurowhere was that mentioned?14:16
ali1234that's what he meant14:16
ali1234what would be the point otherwise?14:17
neurothat sounds equally stupid14:17
ali1234if his wife has no earnings then it wouldn't affect his tax situation at all unless you did that14:17
neurooh i see what you're saying14:17
neuroso that makes it even worse14:18
ali1234example: you earn 10K and your wife earns 10K. neither of you pays tax. you earn 20K and your wife earns 0. neither of you pays tax under foobarry's suggested system14:18
neuroyup, discriminatory14:18
neuroand would probably lead to tax revenue shortfall14:18
neuroi wonder how many fake marriages that would lead to :)14:19
shaunothat's my basic impression of how it works here  (nb: I barely understand taxes.  I've resigned myself to believe they're not meant to be understood)14:19
neurothey're pretty straightforward, at least the basic tenets of UK income tax are14:20
neuroi wonder how little extra i'll get in my april wages with the allowance change14:20
neurolistentotaxman reckons about a tenner14:21
ali1234under my suggested system, a spouse with 0 income would be assumed to be being payed minimum wage and be required to pay tax on that14:22
ali1234so: your income 10K - no tax: spouse's income 0 - must pay tax as if they earned minimum wage14:22
shauno..why?14:22
ali1234well my system is a system which is as horribly biased as what foobarry suggested, but in the opposite direction14:22
MartijnVdSit pays to be single? :)14:23
ali1234and arguably just as "fair"14:23
neuroyou realise on minimum wage you still pay tax14:23
ali1234neuro: yes, that's the point14:23
neuro£6.31/hr @ 37.5hrs/wk = £12.3Kpa14:23
neurogross14:23
foobarrywhy is my system biased?14:23
neuroit's biased towards people able to double up their salaries together14:24
neurojust to pay less tax14:24
foobarrybut they share a bank account, they do douvble slaries14:24
neuroor, you know, you could just pay tax14:24
neuroso what?14:24
neuroit's open to abuse14:25
shaunoI don't see why it's biased14:25
neurobecause it's biased towards people able to double up their salaries together14:25
neuroi'm not married, how do I do it? i can't14:25
shaunosplit the couple up, the working partner pays his "fair" taxes, and the non-working partner receives housing benefits, unemployment benefits, etc14:25
neurostill confused14:26
neuroi don't like being confused14:26
neurowe should stop making things up that aren't going to happen14:26
shaunohave the working partner assume thoses costs of the non-working partner, and suddenly you cry foul?14:26
ali1234shauno: that is my suggestion14:26
neuro"assume those costs"?14:26
neuroi was talking about foobarry's suggestio14:26
neuron14:26
shaunoyes, so am I14:27
ali1234shauno: have the working partner "assume" the costs at market rate, by paying the none working partner minimum wage. and then tax it.14:27
neurotoo many crazy suggestions14:27
neuroor you could JUST PAY YOUR TAXES NORMALLY LIKE THE REST OF US14:27
BigRedSone important requirement of a tax code is that it be indecipherable14:27
shaunoreal-world example.  my wife became unemployed.  she went to see what benefits she could receive.  the answer was "very little, because I make over x"14:27
neuroyup14:27
neurobecause you're deemed, together, to be financially capable14:28
shaunothe fact that I could use her tax cutoff is the balance to this.  otherwise it's skewed towards single people14:28
neuroit's decided that it should be personal responsibility to make ends meet by whatever means necessary14:28
neuroyeah but single people don't always have a partner to lean on for support14:28
MartijnVdSisn't that sort-of the definition of "single"14:29
neuroduh14:29
shaunoso we should be deemed 'together, financially capable' for benefits purposes but not tax purposes?14:29
=== Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte
neurowhat tax purposes?14:29
TwistedLucidityAnyone managed to get name resolution working with multiple networks?14:29
neuroyou'd be paying less tax, together14:29
shaunofoobarry's suggestion of sharing the tax cutoff between two partners14:29
neuroalbeit you'd still be paying the same rates individually14:29
BigRedSTwistedLucidity: in what sense? You could mean several things by that14:30
neuroif you were single and you were unemployed and you had >£16K in the bank, you'd also be told you couldn't get many benefits14:30
neurois that skewed towards poor people?14:31
shaunoso if my wife becomes unemployed, the only financially sensible reaction would be to kick her out so she can claim benefits?14:31
BigRedSneuro: the pertinent difference, I think, is that benefits are calculated on the basis of the income of the claimant *and their partner*, taxes only on the individual14:31
neurothe financially sensible reaction would be to reduce your outgoings until wifey becomes ununemployed14:31
TwistedLucidityI have eth0 (home lan/Interent) and eth1 (corporate). At the moment i can resolve corporate name OK "for.company.local" but nothing on the home/Internet14:31
BigRedSWhich one is your default gateway? Where is the DNS server?14:32
TwistedLucidityThis is in a VM, the host is Windows running a VPN (the host can do full name resolution, as can another Windows guest)14:32
BigRedSer, which one *has* your default gateway14:32
TwistedLucidityBigRedS: Well, there's multiple DNS servers14:32
BigRedSif all your traffic's going out on eth1 then you're not going to reach any non-corporate DNS servers14:32
neurounless there are routes in place14:33
BigRedSyes, but can the ones your gateway will forward traffic on to resolve these "on the home/Internet" things you can't resolve?14:33
MartijnVdSand that's why you don't want a split-personality DNS14:33
MartijnVdSbecause it's impossible to merge again14:33
TwistedLucidityeth0 and eht1 are both active. eth1 is configured to only take traffic for it. I have set-up routes on eth114:33
BigRedSso your default gateway is out of eth0, towards the Internet?14:33
TwistedLucidityHow do I check?14:34
BigRedSroute -n14:34
neurorun bind on your gateway and secondary *.company.local from the corp nameserver14:34
neuroand do resolution via bind on the gateway14:34
TwistedLucidityI see do entry tagged "Default Gateway"14:34
TwistedLucidityIs it "0.0.0.0"?14:34
MartijnVdSyes14:35
MartijnVdSthat's a default14:35
neurotum te tum14:35
MartijnVdSalso, use" ip route", it can do way cooler things with routes14:35
Seeker`eugh, my mediaserver keeps on rebooting itself14:35
neurohave you tried turning it off and on again?14:35
TwistedLucidityCool, there are three entries for that. One where it's destination (eth0) and then two where it is gateway (eth0 and eth1)14:36
TwistedLucidityI can ping by IP no issue (eht0 or eth1). The only thing not working is name resolution. For some reason Ubuntu isn't trying the DNS's in turn. It seems to hit the first and then give up.14:37
neuromultiple entries are there in case the first one isn't accesible14:37
neuroyou need to bring name resolution local14:37
neuroand secondary *.company.local14:38
TwistedLucidityHmmm....that won't be possible14:38
neurounlucky then14:38
neuro:)14:38
TwistedLucidityneuro: What do you mean by "and secondary *.company.local"?14:38
Seeker`neuro: what do you think the reboot did? :P14:38
neuroSeeker`: ;)14:38
MartijnVdSTwistedLucidity: "Install DNS-server software, and have it become a secondary nameserver for the company internal domain"14:38
MartijnVdSTwistedLucidity: basically14:38
neuroTwistedLucidity: i mean you pull the dns data for *.company.local to your local resolver and your client looks up records from the secondary data14:38
TwistedLucidityOh - deffo not possible14:39
neuroeither using bind which will try to pull the whole zone (which may not be permitted by your corp nameserver) or a caching nameserver14:39
MartijnVdSor have the company resolver *also* resolve internet addresses (but then you're leaking that to $employer)14:39
neurowon't help local lan name resolution tho14:39
TwistedLucidityI was hoping the local dnsmasq would try each DNS in turn until it either got an answer or ran out of servers.14:39
neuroe.g. 192.168.1.2 = foo.whatever14:39
MartijnVdSTwistedLucidity: that's not how DNS works14:39
TwistedLucidityI thought the entire point of Ubuntu installing a dnsmaaq instance was to do exactly that.14:40
MartijnVdSTwistedLucidity: no, it is for switching networks on the go -- Wifi to wired to 3G etc.14:40
TwistedLucidityAh14:41
MartijnVdSbut only one "active" at a time14:41
TwistedLucidityStrange that Ubuntu can't manage it yet Windows is perfectly happy with the set-up. I guess I needs to start adding entires to hosts and keeping 'em up to dat14:41
TwistedLucidity"date"14:42
MartijnVdSyou can set up a local caching nameserver that knows it has to look at one remote server for <company internal> and to The Interweb for the rest14:42
MartijnVdSmaybe dnsmasq can even do that14:42
ali1234i know this one14:42
neurotis what i said already14:42
ali1234dnsmasq can do it14:42
neuro:)14:42
ali1234it's not even hard14:43
MartijnVdSali1234, TwistedLucidity. TwistedLucidity, ali1234 .14:43
TwistedLucidityYes it can. and that is why I am really confused by why it isn't14:43
ali1234because ubuntu has a special dnsmasq set up14:43
MartijnVdSbecause you didn't tell it :)14:43
ali1234but luckily you can manipulate it through network manager14:43
TwistedLucidityErr...Network Manager has all the DNS settings (I think)14:43
neurooh14:43
neurodnsmasq takes flags14:43
ali1234you don't put it in the gui14:44
ali1234wait while i find the config14:44
neuro--server=/company.local/ip.addr.of.corpns14:44
neuroit's in the man page14:44
ali1234you can't specify switches to the ubuntu dnsmasq instance14:44
ali1234but it is the right config option, you just have to put it in a special config file on ubuntu14:44
neuroso it goes in the config, it seems14:45
neuroserver=/company.local/ip.addr.of.corpns14:45
TwistedLucidityNetwork Manager also overwrites many of the config files depending on GUI entries14:45
neuroe.g. server=/example.com/10.1.5.10014:45
ali1234yeah, you put that in a file in /etc/NetworkManager/dnsmasq.d14:45
TwistedLucidityWhat I can't find is which file is configuring dnsmasq14:45
ali1234and ubuntu will use it14:45
neuroyay, we solved it14:45
TwistedLucidityAh, thanks; shall look now14:45
neurodo the happy dance14:45
neuro\o/14:45
neuro.o/14:46
ali1234i use this for namecoin resolution14:46
neuro\o.14:46
MartijnVdSneuro: *\o/* */o\* ?14:46
neuropom poms?14:46
neuroreally?14:46
TwistedLuciditySo - daft question - what is the point of giving Network Manager DNS entries in the GUI if it ignores them?14:46
MartijnVdSneuro: aren't you happy?!14:46
neurono14:46
neurobecause Network Manager is consumer-grade software?14:47
ali1234TwistedLucidity: it doesn't ignore them, but you cannot specify a special DNS server for a specific domain through the gui14:47
neuroand you're trying to do some corporate/enterprise/server funkiness?14:47
TwistedLucidityIsn't that what "Search Domains" is for?14:47
neurono14:47
TwistedLucidityAh14:47
neurothat's so you can look up 'foo'14:47
neuroand get the details for 'foo.example.com14:48
neurowhen you have 'example.com' in your search domains14:48
MartijnVdSwell, it COULD be, if your company just published its internal hosts in public DNS14:48
neuroI DO THAT14:48
MartijnVdSshouldn't be a problem, as long as they (a) have a good firewall and/or (b) use RFC1918 addresses14:48
TwistedLucidityYeah, I get that. And just above are the DNS servers. So "example.com" is directly related to them. Surely.14:48
neurothat's not what search domains means14:49
neuroit's like saying to a phone "your search domain is 01234" and then being able to dial 567890 instead of 01234 567890.14:49
BigRedShttp://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=129138314:49
BigRedSfor some reason ping is used for name resolution there...14:49
neurothe list of name servers and the search domains are unrelated14:50
BigRedSOh, I guess you automatically get the ptr record from ping14:50
neuroyar14:50
neurobecause it's nice and stuff14:50
TwistedLucidityneuro: I totally get that. But why doesn't it take the DNS servers I have explicitly told it about when it is trying adding one of the search domains.14:50
* TwistedLucidity does not understand networking14:50
neuroTwistedLucidity: because they are unrelated14:50
neurothe search domains are just look up shortcuts14:51
TwistedLucidityTime get got married then!14:51
ali1234you might need strict-order in the config file too14:51
TwistedLucidity"Time they got..."14:51
neurothe name servers are just addresses to check one after the other until a result is returned14:51
neuroeven if the result is NXDOMAIN14:51
neurothe server= config item is the magic bit14:52
TwistedLuciditySo if I add some entries into /etc/NetworkManager/dnsmasq.d/foo; dnsmasq will (hopefully) know which DNS server to check when a particular Search Doman has been tagged on?14:52
ali1234yes14:52
neuroi can't answer that14:52
neurothere you go14:53
neuroi don't use dnsmasq, at all14:53
ali1234you have to restart network manager though14:53
TwistedLucidityGonna test that in a sac14:53
* neuro hugs bind14:53
TwistedLucidityMeh, comes preinstalled14:53
neuromeh, not fit for my purposes :)14:53
neuroi run one set of zone files14:53
neuroand push them out to all my name servers, both public and private14:53
neuroi use bind views to get RFC or public addresses respectively based on query source14:54
neuroi.e. split horizon14:54
TwistedLuciditySame problem - no Internet name resolution.14:55
TwistedLucidityCorporate name resoltuon also broken - Search Domains not being applied14:55
TwistedLucidityIf I use the FQDN, that works14:55
neurotry adding the corp domain into search domains14:55
TwistedLucidityAlready done14:56
neuroman 8 dnsmasq14:56
neuroor14:57
neurohttps://kb.isc.org/article/AA-0103114:57
TwistedLucidityKill eth1 and Internet comes back....interesting14:57
ali1234this is not a DNS issue14:58
ali1234this is a routing issue14:58
neuroit's also a dns issue14:58
TwistedLucidityThis is a PEBKAC issues....14:58
neurolol14:58
* neuro gets back to trying to back up 110GiB of maildirs over a 4 meg link :P14:59
TwistedLucidityneuro: Thanks, but I am not throwing bind into the mix. Hard enough using the default software....14:59
TwistedLucidityIt's working. HAH!15:01
TwistedLucidityI had to set "Use this connection only for resources on its network" on *both* eth0 and eth115:02
TwistedLucidityNo I will remove the server entry and (in theory) it will break again. Which I want because that means I'm editing the correct config15:02
TwistedLucidityAnd it still works. Whut? Oh well, it works. It'll do for now. Thanks for the help.15:04
* TwistedLucidity wanders off to find a "Networking for total morons" class at the local tech college....15:05
BigRedSI think it's much easier to just not do networking15:05
BigRedSI make any networking problem someone else's15:05
TwistedLucidityNow it doesn't work >.< I changed nothing.15:06
TwistedLucidityIt's reverted to corporate working an Internet not. Sod it, I have an easy answer.15:08
TwistedLucidityTurn the interface on/off as required15:08
=== Hornet- is now known as Hornet
jussiTwistedLucidity: you have an awesome nick. that is all.15:21
MartijnVdSTwistedLucidity: create a VM and bridge it with the corporate interface ;)15:23
MartijnVdSTwistedLucidity: then do work things on the VM instead15:23
TwistedLucidityMartijnVdS: This is in a VM....15:27
TwistedLucidityeth0 is bridged (and can only see local/Internet). eth1 is on NAT and can see the VPN running on the host.15:28
shaunoOT:  I hate excel.  I really hate excel.15:32
TwistedLucidityshauno: I feel your pain15:32
jussierr what is the process "http" anyone know?15:34
TwistedLucidityApache?15:34
jussirunning as root...  and eating 25% of my cpu...15:34
jussihrm, its on my desktop....15:35
MartijnVdSjussi: ps fax shows its parent15:35
MartijnVdSjussi: probably apt15:35
=== alan_g is now known as alan_g|tea
TwistedLucidityCheers everyone - a wee bitty more fiddling and I *think* I got all the various configs/services aligned.15:47
TwistedLucidityReally annoying when you know *exactly* what you want to happen; you know it possible; but you simply can't see how.15:47
TwistedLucidityAnd it also doesn't help when the company's DNS doesn't agree with the DHCP server.....15:49
=== alan_g|tea is now known as alan_g
TwistedLucidityYup...the DNS is disavowing all knowledge of the sever I am RDP'd into.16:02
TwistedLucidityPlease excuse, I think I am going to have to do and hurt someone.16:02
BigRedSIf I'm moving from a 686 machine to an amd64 one how much of a daft idea is it to rsync /etc/ between them?16:04
TwistedLucidityThe dnsmasq "server=/" thing; can you give multiple entires for a "Search Domain"? I know "server=/foo.com/..." and "server=/www.foo.com/..." are accepted. Just can't tell from the docs if duplicates are.16:20
TwistedLucidityAnd why is it ignore /etc/hosts? GAH! I hate networking!16:25
TwistedLucidityBug 993298 is why. *sigh*16:27
lubotu3bug 993298 in network-manager (Ubuntu) "Please make NetworkManager-controlled dnsmasq respect /etc/hosts" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/99329816:27
ali1234that's not actually a bug16:29
ali1234/etc/hosts works at the kernel level16:29
ali1234if you put an entry in it, it will never call out to the DNS server at all16:29
TwistedLucidityali1234: Turned out that my issue was fat-finger-itis16:45
davmor2TwistedLucidity: don't let dick_turpin know you hang out here you'll get tarred with the same brush as popey and me ;)16:51
popey"meh"16:52
davmor2popey: that's just your cold/hayfever talking :D16:53
TwistedLuciditydavmor2: I'm not important enough to be a target.16:57
davmor2TwistedLucidity: haha16:58
TwistedLucidityAt least the Xubuntu intall today went better than last night's Fedora one. :-(16:59
directhexunrealengine 4 pricing: crazypants16:59
davmor2TwistedLucidity: \o/ we rock at installing17:01
bigcalmGood morning peeps :)17:02
davmor2bigcalm: Morning dude :D17:02
bigcalmWonderfully productive morning without IRC ;)17:02
davmor2bigcalm: I don't believe you :D17:03
bigcalmdavmor2: not coming tonight. Don't want my car to breakdown either to or from17:03
davmor2bigcalm: might not be there anyway too much stuff on17:03
MooDoohello all17:17
=== Mez_ is now known as Mez
bubuhey guys, anyone use non bash ( i.e. ruby ) pre/post install scripts for debian packages?17:34
davmor2MooDoo: me owld mucka17:37
davmor2Mez: how the blazes are you?17:37
mappsarghh17:38
mappswhy must i smoke when im out ;(17:38
mappsyet again bought another pack of cigs at the casino..10 freaking pounds17:38
davmor2mapps: because when your out there is this overwhelm desire your friends have to set fire to you?17:39
MooDoohello davmor2 at home cleaning up for a bit17:39
mappsheh17:39
davmor2MooDoo: no wonder you came on irc ;)17:39
mappsjust an idiot17:39
mappscant stop the drinking cant stop the gambling17:40
MooDoodavmor2: waiting for this irc meeting :D17:40
mappsso of course i start smoking again:D17:40
davmor2MooDoo: yeah yeah any excuse ;)17:40
davmor2mapps: you can you just have to want to17:40
MooDoodavmor2: shush the wife will see17:40
davmor2hahaha17:40
mappseasier said than done..my whole life is those two things17:41
mappswakeup go on betfair/betfair forum..go to work watch sport (i work for a bookie) .finish work go to casino drink17:41
mappsgo to tesco buy more17:41
mappssleep repeat17:41
=== alan_g is now known as alan_g|EOD
mappsyes judge judys on18:12
mappslove that show18:12
davmor2mapps: you really need help18:57
MooDoo+118:57
shaunorandom question .. anyone know off-hand where I could find a parsable list of each country with its native spelling?  (I have a list in english, not a list in the 'official' name of each)19:17
MooDoo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_and_their_capitals_in_native_languages this?19:19
shaunoit's almost on-topic because I'm blaming the brits for this one.  I have to make a second index of country names because the brits can never guess what their country is called :/19:19
MooDoonot sure about it being parsable though19:19
shaunohm, it'd be the closest I've found yet, ta.  I think I was mentally avoiding wiki so I didn't end up opening each country and copy/pasting19:20
davmor2shauno: technically it is the Americans it is American English on the interwebz no British English :P19:21
shaunoah, this is intrawebs, I have no americans to blame :)19:23
davmor2shauno: but the list you have will almost certainly still be American English :P19:23
shaunois, it's [the] united kingdom [of stuff].  great britain is an island.  but it's easier to search a second dictionary than teach people this :(19:24
shauno*ps19:24
ali1234why don't you just have a drop down box?19:28
shaunobasically because the brits complain :(  is britain at the top, the uk at the bottom, or great britain in the middle?19:30
MooDooI'm english not british :p19:30
shauno(also, we're using 'while you type' searches for everything else, so it keeps it all cohesive)19:31
directhexhttp://steamdb.info/app/20920/#section_history19:38
shaunogog weren't kidding!19:40
davmor2MooDoo: I think you'll find that is English little pride in the capital E if you please ;)19:43
MooDoomy apologise sir19:44
davmor2MooDoo: that's better, now for the Queen and Saint George Charge19:45
shaunono pride for the comma, eh?19:49
directhexsaint george. patron saint of  Georgia, Egypt, Bulgaria, Aragon, Catalonia, Romania, Ethiopia, Greece, India, Iraq, Israel, Lebanon, Lithuania, Palestine, Portugal, Serbia, Ukraine, Russia and Syria19:49
davmor2shauno: No I hate coma's19:49
MooDooI wish people would talk proper like what i does19:50
shaunodirecthex: you forgot England purposefully?19:51
shaunoreminds me, accidentally watched the news this morning.  A lot of somebody's military in the ukraine/crimea/mess appeared to have scottish flags on their helmets.19:53
directhexshauno, yes!19:55
diddledanshauno: that'll be the newly independant scottish national front20:45
diddledanotherwise known as those ginger tits20:46
diddledan</troll>20:46
shauno:/  not cool man20:47
diddledanno?20:48
shaunono wonder they want to leave with stuff like that20:49
diddledanit's because they want to leave that I stir the pot20:49
=== Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away

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