[01:18] <JollyValue> Dunno if anyone's gonna see this but for Commodore C64 fans .. #kickstarter projects (2)
[01:19] <JollyValue> A) C64: A Visual Commpendium - Launch Video ... march 1st starts .. seems alright. I guess. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhX4_nUFUD0
[01:24] <JollyValue> B) C64 In a new biscuit tin for £75 plus courier from US running : MMBASIC (MaxiMite BASIC) https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/818225433/maximite-bbx-the-modern-day-basic-language-compute?ref=live
[01:25] <JollyValue> note that (B) finishes in when (A) starts, at the beginning of March ~14
[01:27] <JollyValue> I guess a reference for an Raspi Pi happy coders for MMBasic is on their page under the FAQ - http://goo.gl/H5iqIp
[01:28] <JollyValue> #beddington Offsk.ies
[01:28] <JollyValue> leaves
[01:28] <daftykins> wat.
[02:27] <diddledan> err
[02:27] <diddledan> was that a troll?
[02:28] <diddledan> pretty damned random and in the middle of the night
[06:15] <Myrtti> that was redtape
[06:16] <Myrtti> probably
[06:48] <mapps> too mcuh ketamin again
[06:48] <mapps> :_
[06:48] <mapps> :)
[06:51] <mapps> hm]
[07:00] <MooDoo> hello all
[07:45]  * popey stabs directhex with the flu
[07:46] <MartijnVdS>  cruel
[07:46] <popey> well.. I woke up to see this notification...
[07:46] <popey> 23:40:11 < directhex> daftykins or popey, whomever is more awake gets secret info. THE OTHER WILL BE LEFT IN THE DARK
[07:47] <MooDoo> popey: I bet he's not even up himself yet!
[08:07] <MooDoo> popey: that wasn't nice posting that pic of your breakfast on twitter :p
[08:11] <bashrc> morning
[08:14] <MooDoo> morning bashrc
[08:14] <popey> hah
[08:14] <popey> it was yummy
[08:15] <MooDoo> :p
[08:16] <jussi> popey: Darkness is good... :P
[08:16] <jussi> so being left there isnt bad...
[08:16] <jussi> or in other words "ignorance is bliss" :D
[08:18] <directhex> i was up at 5:45. thanks, toddler!
[08:18] <MooDoo> directhex: that late eh ;)
[08:21] <popey> I was woken by a cat trying to login to my imac
[08:21] <popey> *boop*
[08:21] <popey> *boop*
[08:21] <jussi> popey: hahahah
[08:21] <popey> *b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-boop*
[08:22] <jussi> popey: we don't believe you, everybody makes up cat on keyboard stories.... :P :P :P :P
[08:23] <popey> this is the only reason I got up early and made a nice brekkie for wifey
[08:23] <popey> because I was already up thanks to sky
[08:24] <popey> mirv has the best keyboard + cat story
[08:24] <popey> http://www.kernelcat.com/
[08:25] <MooDoo> LOL
[08:29] <DJones> Morning all
[08:29] <MooDoo> morning DJones
[08:30] <DJones> Hey MooDoo
[08:32] <jussi> MooDoo: do you actually do something at work or just sit on irc...? :P
[08:32] <bashrc> the latter
[08:33]  * jussi giggles and shoots nerf rockets at MooDoo
[08:33] <MooDoo> jussi: oi shut it
[08:33] <jussi> hehehe
[08:33] <jussi> MooDoo: got splinters in your butt? :P
[08:33] <MooDoo> jussi: ow ow ow ow ow
[08:34] <MooDoo> I work with two monitors so can have irc on one and work on the other, i'm just that good :)
[08:34] <jussi> MooDoo: pfft :P
[08:35] <popey> The good news is, you're probably having a better day than this guy. http://i.imgur.com/J7Qw7Ka.gif
[08:36] <Myrtti> Chromecast \o/
[08:36] <MooDoo> oh dear
[08:37] <jussi> popey: thats just nasty...
[08:38] <jussi> popey: did you end up buying a hdmi splitter?
[08:38] <popey> no, I'm waiting for you to tell me which one to buy ☻
[08:39] <jussi> popey: heh, not the one I bought in nycase... :(
[08:39] <popey> Yes, I noted that ☻
[08:39] <jussi> oh and that word always brings this clip to  mind :P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE
[08:56] <directhex> popey, thanks for the pointer to kdenlive, it's doing exactly what i needed it to
[08:58] <directhex> With the courier to be delivered
[08:58] <directhex> 19/03/2014	08:37	Received by the recipient's local courier
[08:58] <directhex> ;o
[08:59] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls.
[09:01] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Chocolate Caramel Day! :-D
[09:02] <directhex> you set a clip with a "composite" transition, and that transition lets you pick arbitrary scaling values
[09:11] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[09:14] <brobostigon> morning bigcalm
[09:28] <Myrtti> http://helloworldopen.com/
[09:29] <MooDoo> morning bigcalm brobostigon Myrtti :)
[09:35] <popey> directhex: yay
[09:39]  * foobarry opens a chocolate orange in defiance
[09:39] <MooDoo> foobarry: good man
[09:42] <brobostigon> morning MooDoo
[09:43] <MooDoo> anyone here done LPIC-1 ?
[09:47] <Myrtti> popey: did you order new socks?
[09:47] <popey> no
[09:47] <Myrtti> I'm not too keen on Argyle myself
[09:47] <foobarry> are we talking those nice socks? they are a bit pricey though
[09:49] <popey> Myrtti: foldio just arrived
[09:49] <Myrtti> 30USD? depends on what you're used to paying
[09:49] <foobarry> M&S fresh feet
[09:52] <BigRedS> MooDoo: I've started working towards it and seen everyone else here pushed through it if that's any help :)
[09:52] <MooDoo> BigRedS: yeah i'm applying for more canonical jobs that mention lpic so I think it's where i need to go
[09:57] <Myrtti> foobarry: that's not comparable, these are flight compression socks
[10:42] <directhex> 4th tutorial video recorded
[10:48] <Myrtti> popey: did your Foldio tracking code ever work on parcelforce website?
[10:48] <popey> never tried
[11:10] <Myrtti> :-D http://www.nrk.no/piipshow/about-the-piip-show-1.11575642
[11:11] <MartijnVdS> Norweirdgians ;)
[11:13] <directhex> finns are worse: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLKiknDbFjA&feature=kp
[11:14] <davmor2> Morning all
[11:14] <MooDoo> morning davmor2
[11:15] <davmor2> MooDoo: loved you black selfie :)
[11:15] <MooDoo> davmor2: yeah I thought it was funny :D
[11:23] <MooDoo> If any one is interested and I hope I'm not out of line in posting this but there is a IRC  Operator team meeting today at 18:00UTC if you're interested :D
[11:30] <Laney> ops plz
[11:30] <Laney> man I miss op begging
[11:30] <Laney> what happened to that?
[11:34] <MartijnVdS> Services ;)
[11:34] <MartijnVdS> try visiting ircnet some time.. ops begging galore
[11:34] <MooDoo> Laney: say it at the meeting :p
[11:35] <Laney> well, you could beg to be added to the ACL
[11:36] <Laney> I guess I only hang around in grown up channels now ...
[11:36] <MooDoo> Laney: I joined the launchpad teams for ubuntu and ubuntu-offtopic, noy saying i'm gonna get it, but I can ask :D
[11:48] <MooDoo> http://tumbleweed.popey.com/
[11:53] <Laney> can't talk; watching budget
[11:53] <directhex> ok, pc mostly built... off to maplin to fill in minor gaps
[11:55] <MooDoo> oh yeah budget
[11:56] <foobarry> what a waste of time. took the bus to the bank and couldn't open an account because they didn't have any forms
[12:00] <davmor2> foobarry: try first direct I've heard good things of them by a lot of their users
[12:00] <davmor2> foobarry: they are just online/phone
[12:00] <DJones> "minor gaps" thats the cooling system ventilation
[12:00] <foobarry> how do you prove things about yourself? birth certs etc?
[12:01] <MooDoo> yeah birth certificate, driving license, utility bill
[12:01] <davmor2> foobarry: no idea
[12:01] <foobarry> how do you do that with an online bank?
[12:02] <MooDoo> sometimes they ask you to fax off the information or email it to them....trouble is if you've not got a scanner etc.
[12:02] <davmor2> foobarry: I have no idea they get around it some how
[12:02] <foobarry> this is for my kids
[12:02] <MooDoo> ah
[12:03] <davmor2> foobarry: I said I've heard good things about them, I don't use them but the 2 guys I know who have accounts with them swear by them and won't go anywhere else
[12:07] <foobarry> FD don't seem to do kids accounts
[12:09] <jussi> FD?
[12:11] <foobarry> first dfirect
[12:11] <jussi> MooDoo: its called a smartphone camera :P
[12:12] <jussi> I _love_ the banking systems in Finland - Im sure Myrtti can say similar (with no mentions of a certain bank and java sw)
[12:18] <Myrtti> theyve moved out of using it
[12:26] <neuro> oh good, nearly Budget time
[12:44] <foobarry> "oh good"
[13:06] <jussi> Myrtti: oh, that is nice news
[13:21] <Laney> come on
[13:21] <Laney> give the whole allowance to cash isas
[13:21] <Laney> excellent
[13:22] <neuro> typical schizophrenic tory budget
[13:22] <neuro> tobacco duty to continue increasing as there's "no health benefit"
[13:22] <neuro> but alcohol duty escalator scrapped, and beer duty cut by 1p?
[13:33] <foobarry> sounds ok
[13:33] <jussi> BEER!!!
[13:33] <foobarry> cigs are bad, alcoholl can be enjoyed in moderation and keeps populace happy
[13:33] <neuro> i'm pretty sure booze is unhealthy
[13:34] <jussi> neuro: only in unhealthy quntities
[13:34] <foobarry> not the amount i drink
[13:34] <jussi> especially wine, red wine is very good in small quantaties
[13:34] <foobarry> i drink port
[13:34] <foobarry> in a very small glass
[13:34] <foobarry> with a piece of shortbread
[13:34] <jussi> I love port.
[13:35] <neuro> so if i have one cig a week, i should be penalised?
[13:35] <foobarry> yes
[13:35] <neuro> because?
[13:35] <jussi> it only damages you.
[13:35] <davmor2> foobarry: you put pieces of shortbread into a small glass of port!  There is something wrong with you dude ;)
[13:35] <foobarry> you probably poinced it off someone
[13:35] <foobarry> and didn't buy a packet
[13:36] <foobarry> smoking is a luxury way to kill yourself.
[13:36] <jussi> alcohol in moderation is good/ok. cigarettes in moderation are still bd
[13:36]  * neuro lights up another death stick
[13:36] <neuro> stuff the lot of you :)
[13:36] <jussi> heh
[13:36] <popey> neuro: have you considered robo-fags?
[13:37] <neuro> no
[13:37] <foobarry> why not?
[13:37] <popey> in know aquarius loves to jack-in and charge up his leccy-fags
[13:37] <neuro> it's just as hazardous as smoking real cigs and it's completely unlicensed and unregulated
[13:37] <foobarry> they will ban ecigs indoors soon
[13:37] <neuro> good
[13:37] <foobarry> citation needed
[13:38] <popey> i suspect they won't
[13:38] <foobarry> " it's just as hazardous as smoking real cigs"
[13:38] <popey> and it'll be down to the individual company
[13:38] <foobarry> popey: they are doing it in states
[13:38] <neuro> do you have any idea what's in these cylinders?
[13:38] <popey> you do if you mix your own
[13:38] <popey> i see a number of people making their own mix on t'internet
[13:38] <foobarry> also you are not breathing in smoke
[13:38] <popey> seems quite a popular pasttime
[13:38] <davmor2> popey: yeah passive vapouring :D
[13:38] <neuro> foobarry: you're still breathing in chemicals
[13:38] <popey> yeah
[13:38] <foobarry> also, a smoker saying"do you know whats in those things is a bit much"
[13:39] <neuro> is it?
[13:39] <shauno> the most common concern is that because they're not regulated, we don't actually know what the long-term threat is.  "just as dangerous" is as unprovable as "no danger at all"
[13:40] <neuro> that too
[13:40] <popey> yeah
[13:40] <popey> no long term scientific study
[13:40] <popey> lets vape while we can! :D
[13:40] <neuro> at least with cigs i know what i'm getting into
[13:40] <neuro> lol
[13:40] <popey> see 40 years ago with ciggies
[13:40] <MartijnVdS> just don't do either :P
[13:40] <neuro> no
[13:41] <neuro> it's called an addiction for a reason
[13:41] <foobarry> i thought it was a hobby
[13:41] <neuro> not at these prices
[13:41] <popey> the speaker of the house has a hilarious accent
[13:41] <foobarry> it was a hobby when you started
[13:41] <popey> is it from liverpool?
[13:41] <MartijnVdS> neuro: that's "resignation to being addicted"
[13:41] <neuro> popey: deputy speaker
[13:41] <popey> ah
[13:41] <foobarry> milliband is such a tool. he was the annoying kid in class
[13:41] <neuro> he's no more a tool than the rest of the muppets in parliament
[13:41] <neuro> the commons is a joke
[13:42] <neuro> listen to them just now
[13:42] <foobarry> the wallace and gromit likeness is too much for me
[13:42] <shauno> (and "you're still breathing in chemicals" is scare-mongering.  you're breathing in chemicals even if you don't smoke.  silly oxygen-addicts)
[13:42] <neuro> this is meant to be an opposition response to the budget, not a classroom full of ADHD-afflicted kids
[13:42] <foobarry> don't touch that h2o
[13:42] <neuro> shauno: whatever makes you sleep at night :)
[13:43] <shauno> dioxyhydroxide has been proven fatal though ;)
[13:43] <MartijnVdS> shauno: it's also been proven that the more birthdays you've had, the likelier you are to die!
[13:43] <shauno> this is why we have the RNLI trying to prevent overdoses
[13:43] <foobarry> good news about 40% rate of tax
[13:44] <neuro> is it?
[13:44] <foobarry> argh
[13:44] <popey> No Girls Aloud!?
[13:44] <foobarry> i thought they were raising it loads
[13:44] <foobarry> they aren't
[13:44] <neuro> good
[13:46] <foobarry> :-|
[13:47] <foobarry> Threshold for 40p income tax to rise from £41,450 to £41,865 next month and by a further 1% to £42,285 next year
[13:47] <foobarry> have to continue giving loads to charity then
[13:47] <foobarry> will they call the new combined ISA a tessa?
[13:48] <neuro> "The New ISA"
[13:48] <MartijnVdS> 40p income tax or 40%? :)
[13:48] <neuro> same thing
[13:48] <MartijnVdS> neuro: nah, £42000-40p != £42000-40%
[13:48] <neuro> it means 40 pence on the pound
[13:48] <neuro> so 40%
[13:49] <MartijnVdS> ah
[13:49] <jussi> is it not only applied to earnings above 42k?  ie. if you earn 50k, the 40% tax rate is only appied to the ~8k about 42?
[13:49] <neuro> and we operate on a graduated income tax rate
[13:50] <neuro> £0-31,865 = 20%
[13:50] <neuro> £31,866 - 150,000 = 40%
[13:50] <neuro> >£150,000 = 45%
[13:50] <foobarry> jussi: yes
[13:50] <neuro> plus a tax free allowance of £0-10,000 = 0% where eligible, i.e. first income
[13:51] <foobarry> but if you give to charrideee then that comes off the top of your income
[13:51] <neuro> but if you give to charidee, then you don't have that income any more
[13:51]  * neuro is mercenary, a fiver to ORG every month aside
[13:51] <foobarry> yes, but since most people do, its handy to reclaim the tax
[13:52] <foobarry> some people give 15% of their earning
[13:52] <neuro> good for them
[13:52] <neuro> glad they can afford it
[13:52] <neuro> i can't
[13:53] <foobarry> thats cos u smoke ;)
[13:53]  * foobarry ducks
[13:53] <neuro> nowt to do with that
[13:53] <neuro> i'm just now emerging from Stupid Times with Credit
[13:55] <ali1234> 40% tax rate shift is just a tax cut for the rich
[13:55] <neuro> yup
[13:55] <MartijnVdS> Our (dutch) taxes are €0-19645 -> 36.25%; €19646-56531 -> 42%; €56532 and up: 52%
[13:55] <neuro> plus they benefit from the increase in tax free allowance
[13:55] <neuro> holy crap
[13:55] <foobarry> high tax is OK if it works
[13:55] <ali1234> yes
[13:55] <foobarry> e.g. denmark
[13:56] <foobarry> UK and US suffer from scale
[13:56] <MartijnVdS> neuro: There's a HUGE way to get money back for home owners though (some huge percentage of interest paid on mortgages is deductible)
[13:57] <ali1234> i think a large number of people don't understand how the tax system works
[13:58] <ali1234> they think that if they get a pay rise from 40k to 41k then that means they suddenly pay twice as much tax
[13:58] <foobarry> MIRAS gone canned in the 90s
[13:58] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: s/the tax system/anything in the world/
[13:58] <foobarry> ali1234: although they do lose a lot of other benfits
[13:58] <foobarry> e.g. child benefit
[13:58] <ali1234> i think employers specifically use this confusion to say things like "well, if i give you a pay rise it will put you into the next tax bracket and you will end up with less" (which is of course impossible)
[13:58] <foobarry> not a very sliding scale
[13:58] <neuro> so don't have kids
[13:59] <foobarry> you should be able to pool the tax with your spouse
[13:59] <foobarry> my wife is a full time mum, so i should be able to aggrgate our earnings
[13:59] <neuro> if your wife is a full time mum, what earnings is she getting?
[14:00] <ali1234> no you shouldn't
[14:00] <foobarry> we are a family unity
[14:00] <foobarry> unit
[14:00] <ali1234> and also all the food and stuff you buy for your family should be taxed as payment in kind
[14:00] <neuro> :)
[14:00] <foobarry> we're not a company
[14:01] <neuro> there you go then
[14:01] <foobarry> i'm not alllowed to pay my wife 10k pa
[14:01] <neuro> sure you are
[14:01] <foobarry> u sure?
[14:01] <neuro> as long as you pay the Class A NICs and the PAYE etc
[14:01] <ali1234> that's below minimum wage
[14:01] <ali1234> so no, you;re not
[14:02] <neuro> hehe
[14:02] <foobarry> could pay her for 16hrs/week part time
[14:02] <neuro> why?
[14:02] <ali1234> as long as she works 24 hrs a week in another job, and then pays tax on that too
[14:02] <dwatkins> I didn't think we had any laws about minimum wage.
[14:02] <neuro> £6.31/hr
[14:03] <dwatkins> ah ok, perhaps it was the US that doesnt have them.
[14:03] <neuro> https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates
[14:03] <foobarry> lots of plumbers "employ" their wife
[14:03] <dwatkins> I was half listening to something on the radio the other day about it.
[14:03] <foobarry> to be paid from the company
[14:03] <neuro> dwatkins: US statutory minimum wage is $7.25/hr
[14:03] <popey> Myrtti: http://imgur.com/cWxhOty,Y4QJ8ub  first couple of pics taken with my foldio
[14:03] <foobarry> i can “If your wife is not a director of the company, and does not have a contract of employment, then you must then you must pay her at least the National Minimum Wage.”
[14:04] <neuro> why "must" you pay her?
[14:04] <neuro> this is all very confusing
[14:04] <Myrtti> popey: nice
[14:06] <davmor2> popey: lego model would be better ;)
[14:06] <popey> true
[14:06] <foobarry> if i had a company then i could pay her 10k pa and she would not pay tax on it
[14:06] <neuro> foobarry: you'd still have to pay NI
[14:06] <foobarry> corporation tax is much lower than 40% income tax
[14:07] <foobarry> IT contractors seem to do OK out of the arrangement
[14:07] <neuro> no, they really don't
[14:07] <ali1234> yeah in my opinion you should have to pay it on top of income tax
[14:07] <davmor2> popey: it would also tell you how good the colours were too :)
[14:08] <ali1234> effectively, it should be mandatory for you to pay your wife minimum wage + VAT (because you're not a company) and then she should register as self employed and pay income tax on that money
[14:08] <ali1234> i think this is the most fair arrangement
[14:09] <neuro> VAT isn't payable on wages
[14:09] <ali1234> it's not wages
[14:09] <neuro> it's a salary
[14:09] <ali1234> not it's not
[14:09] <neuro> so it's a supplier arrangement then?
[14:09] <ali1234> exactly
[14:09] <ali1234> it's as if you hired someone to cook and clean your house 40 hours a week
[14:10] <popey> thats not why people pay their wives though
[14:10] <ali1234> i know it's not
[14:10] <ali1234> i am not being totally serious either
[14:10] <dwatkins> many plumbers also accept cash quite happily
[14:10] <popey> s/plumbers/workers/
[14:11] <ali1234> foobarry suggested he should be able to use his wife's unused personal allowance against his own tax
[14:11] <ali1234> i was merely explaining why he already gets a good deal :)
[14:11] <dwatkins> That wouldn't surprise me, it's only plumbers I've had say that they will accept cash.
[14:11] <shauno> cash is 'acceptable', wink wink nudge nudge
[14:13] <neuro> "pooling" of income, to me, sounds discriminatory at any rate
[14:13] <neuro> s/at any rate/in any case/ just to make it clear i'm not talking about tax rates
[14:13] <neuro> who would qualify?
[14:14] <neuro> if applicable to married couples, would that cover civil partnerships?
[14:14] <neuro> and it would be discriminatory to unmarried couples and single workers
[14:14] <shauno> that's sort of how it works here. I can use my wife's tax credits
[14:14] <neuro> yeah, tax credits are one thing
[14:15] <neuro> but it's quite another to say "husband earns £31K, wife earns £24K, let's bundle it to £55K and only charge tax rates on the bundle"
[14:15] <shauno> so, eg, while she was unemployed, my ceiling for base-rate tax was increased
[14:15] <neuro> and in fact, that's probably a more lunatic way to do it
[14:15] <neuro> since you'd lose out on two sets of tax free allowances, and you'd get hit with the 40% rate instead of not at all
[14:16] <ali1234> that's not what anyone suggested
[14:16] <neuro> 13:59 <foobarry> my wife is a full time mum, so i should be able to aggrgate our earnings
[14:16] <ali1234> yes
[14:16] <ali1234> and also double all the rate thresholds
[14:16] <neuro> where was that mentioned?
[14:16] <ali1234> that's what he meant
[14:17] <ali1234> what would be the point otherwise?
[14:17] <neuro> that sounds equally stupid
[14:17] <ali1234> if his wife has no earnings then it wouldn't affect his tax situation at all unless you did that
[14:17] <neuro> oh i see what you're saying
[14:18] <neuro> so that makes it even worse
[14:18] <ali1234> example: you earn 10K and your wife earns 10K. neither of you pays tax. you earn 20K and your wife earns 0. neither of you pays tax under foobarry's suggested system
[14:18] <neuro> yup, discriminatory
[14:18] <neuro> and would probably lead to tax revenue shortfall
[14:19] <neuro> i wonder how many fake marriages that would lead to :)
[14:19] <shauno> that's my basic impression of how it works here  (nb: I barely understand taxes.  I've resigned myself to believe they're not meant to be understood)
[14:20] <neuro> they're pretty straightforward, at least the basic tenets of UK income tax are
[14:20] <neuro> i wonder how little extra i'll get in my april wages with the allowance change
[14:21] <neuro> listentotaxman reckons about a tenner
[14:22] <ali1234> under my suggested system, a spouse with 0 income would be assumed to be being payed minimum wage and be required to pay tax on that
[14:22] <ali1234> so: your income 10K - no tax: spouse's income 0 - must pay tax as if they earned minimum wage
[14:22] <shauno> ..why?
[14:22] <ali1234> well my system is a system which is as horribly biased as what foobarry suggested, but in the opposite direction
[14:23] <MartijnVdS> it pays to be single? :)
[14:23] <ali1234> and arguably just as "fair"
[14:23] <neuro> you realise on minimum wage you still pay tax
[14:23] <ali1234> neuro: yes, that's the point
[14:23] <neuro> £6.31/hr @ 37.5hrs/wk = £12.3Kpa
[14:23] <neuro> gross
[14:23] <foobarry> why is my system biased?
[14:24] <neuro> it's biased towards people able to double up their salaries together
[14:24] <neuro> just to pay less tax
[14:24] <foobarry> but they share a bank account, they do douvble slaries
[14:24] <neuro> or, you know, you could just pay tax
[14:24] <neuro> so what?
[14:25] <neuro> it's open to abuse
[14:25] <shauno> I don't see why it's biased
[14:25] <neuro> because it's biased towards people able to double up their salaries together
[14:25] <neuro> i'm not married, how do I do it? i can't
[14:25] <shauno> split the couple up, the working partner pays his "fair" taxes, and the non-working partner receives housing benefits, unemployment benefits, etc
[14:26] <neuro> still confused
[14:26] <neuro> i don't like being confused
[14:26] <neuro> we should stop making things up that aren't going to happen
[14:26] <shauno> have the working partner assume thoses costs of the non-working partner, and suddenly you cry foul?
[14:26] <ali1234> shauno: that is my suggestion
[14:26] <neuro> "assume those costs"?
[14:26] <neuro> i was talking about foobarry's suggestio
[14:26] <neuro> n
[14:27] <shauno> yes, so am I
[14:27] <ali1234> shauno: have the working partner "assume" the costs at market rate, by paying the none working partner minimum wage. and then tax it.
[14:27] <neuro> too many crazy suggestions
[14:27] <neuro> or you could JUST PAY YOUR TAXES NORMALLY LIKE THE REST OF US
[14:27] <BigRedS> one important requirement of a tax code is that it be indecipherable
[14:27] <shauno> real-world example.  my wife became unemployed.  she went to see what benefits she could receive.  the answer was "very little, because I make over x"
[14:27] <neuro> yup
[14:28] <neuro> because you're deemed, together, to be financially capable
[14:28] <shauno> the fact that I could use her tax cutoff is the balance to this.  otherwise it's skewed towards single people
[14:28] <neuro> it's decided that it should be personal responsibility to make ends meet by whatever means necessary
[14:28] <neuro> yeah but single people don't always have a partner to lean on for support
[14:29] <MartijnVdS> isn't that sort-of the definition of "single"
[14:29] <neuro> duh
[14:29] <shauno> so we should be deemed 'together, financially capable' for benefits purposes but not tax purposes?
[14:29] <neuro> what tax purposes?
[14:29] <TwistedLucidity> Anyone managed to get name resolution working with multiple networks?
[14:29] <neuro> you'd be paying less tax, together
[14:29] <shauno> foobarry's suggestion of sharing the tax cutoff between two partners
[14:29] <neuro> albeit you'd still be paying the same rates individually
[14:30] <BigRedS> TwistedLucidity: in what sense? You could mean several things by that
[14:30] <neuro> if you were single and you were unemployed and you had >£16K in the bank, you'd also be told you couldn't get many benefits
[14:31] <neuro> is that skewed towards poor people?
[14:31] <shauno> so if my wife becomes unemployed, the only financially sensible reaction would be to kick her out so she can claim benefits?
[14:31] <BigRedS> neuro: the pertinent difference, I think, is that benefits are calculated on the basis of the income of the claimant *and their partner*, taxes only on the individual
[14:31] <neuro> the financially sensible reaction would be to reduce your outgoings until wifey becomes ununemployed
[14:31] <TwistedLucidity> I have eth0 (home lan/Interent) and eth1 (corporate). At the moment i can resolve corporate name OK "for.company.local" but nothing on the home/Internet
[14:32] <BigRedS> Which one is your default gateway? Where is the DNS server?
[14:32] <TwistedLucidity> This is in a VM, the host is Windows running a VPN (the host can do full name resolution, as can another Windows guest)
[14:32] <BigRedS> er, which one *has* your default gateway
[14:32] <TwistedLucidity> BigRedS: Well, there's multiple DNS servers
[14:32] <BigRedS> if all your traffic's going out on eth1 then you're not going to reach any non-corporate DNS servers
[14:33] <neuro> unless there are routes in place
[14:33] <BigRedS> yes, but can the ones your gateway will forward traffic on to resolve these "on the home/Internet" things you can't resolve?
[14:33] <MartijnVdS> and that's why you don't want a split-personality DNS
[14:33] <MartijnVdS> because it's impossible to merge again
[14:33] <TwistedLucidity> eth0 and eht1 are both active. eth1 is configured to only take traffic for it. I have set-up routes on eth1
[14:33] <BigRedS> so your default gateway is out of eth0, towards the Internet?
[14:34] <TwistedLucidity> How do I check?
[14:34] <BigRedS> route -n
[14:34] <neuro> run bind on your gateway and secondary *.company.local from the corp nameserver
[14:34] <neuro> and do resolution via bind on the gateway
[14:34] <TwistedLucidity> I see do entry tagged "Default Gateway"
[14:34] <TwistedLucidity> Is it "0.0.0.0"?
[14:35] <MartijnVdS> yes
[14:35] <MartijnVdS> that's a default
[14:35] <neuro> tum te tum
[14:35] <MartijnVdS> also, use" ip route", it can do way cooler things with routes
[14:35] <Seeker`> eugh, my mediaserver keeps on rebooting itself
[14:35] <neuro> have you tried turning it off and on again?
[14:36] <TwistedLucidity> Cool, there are three entries for that. One where it's destination (eth0) and then two where it is gateway (eth0 and eth1)
[14:37] <TwistedLucidity> I can ping by IP no issue (eht0 or eth1). The only thing not working is name resolution. For some reason Ubuntu isn't trying the DNS's in turn. It seems to hit the first and then give up.
[14:37] <neuro> multiple entries are there in case the first one isn't accesible
[14:37] <neuro> you need to bring name resolution local
[14:38] <neuro> and secondary *.company.local
[14:38] <TwistedLucidity> Hmmm....that won't be possible
[14:38] <neuro> unlucky then
[14:38] <neuro> :)
[14:38] <TwistedLucidity> neuro: What do you mean by "and secondary *.company.local"?
[14:38] <Seeker`> neuro: what do you think the reboot did? :P
[14:38] <neuro> Seeker`: ;)
[14:38] <MartijnVdS> TwistedLucidity: "Install DNS-server software, and have it become a secondary nameserver for the company internal domain"
[14:38] <MartijnVdS> TwistedLucidity: basically
[14:38] <neuro> TwistedLucidity: i mean you pull the dns data for *.company.local to your local resolver and your client looks up records from the secondary data
[14:39] <TwistedLucidity> Oh - deffo not possible
[14:39] <neuro> either using bind which will try to pull the whole zone (which may not be permitted by your corp nameserver) or a caching nameserver
[14:39] <MartijnVdS> or have the company resolver *also* resolve internet addresses (but then you're leaking that to $employer)
[14:39] <neuro> won't help local lan name resolution tho
[14:39] <TwistedLucidity> I was hoping the local dnsmasq would try each DNS in turn until it either got an answer or ran out of servers.
[14:39] <neuro> e.g. 192.168.1.2 = foo.whatever
[14:39] <MartijnVdS> TwistedLucidity: that's not how DNS works
[14:40] <TwistedLucidity> I thought the entire point of Ubuntu installing a dnsmaaq instance was to do exactly that.
[14:40] <MartijnVdS> TwistedLucidity: no, it is for switching networks on the go -- Wifi to wired to 3G etc.
[14:41] <TwistedLucidity> Ah
[14:41] <MartijnVdS> but only one "active" at a time
[14:41] <TwistedLucidity> Strange that Ubuntu can't manage it yet Windows is perfectly happy with the set-up. I guess I needs to start adding entires to hosts and keeping 'em up to dat
[14:42] <TwistedLucidity> "date"
[14:42] <MartijnVdS> you can set up a local caching nameserver that knows it has to look at one remote server for <company internal> and to The Interweb for the rest
[14:42] <MartijnVdS> maybe dnsmasq can even do that
[14:42] <ali1234> i know this one
[14:42] <neuro> tis what i said already
[14:42] <ali1234> dnsmasq can do it
[14:42] <neuro> :)
[14:43] <ali1234> it's not even hard
[14:43] <MartijnVdS> ali1234, TwistedLucidity. TwistedLucidity, ali1234 .
[14:43] <TwistedLucidity> Yes it can. and that is why I am really confused by why it isn't
[14:43] <ali1234> because ubuntu has a special dnsmasq set up
[14:43] <MartijnVdS> because you didn't tell it :)
[14:43] <ali1234> but luckily you can manipulate it through network manager
[14:43] <TwistedLucidity> Err...Network Manager has all the DNS settings (I think)
[14:43] <neuro> oh
[14:43] <neuro> dnsmasq takes flags
[14:44] <ali1234> you don't put it in the gui
[14:44] <ali1234> wait while i find the config
[14:44] <neuro> --server=/company.local/ip.addr.of.corpns
[14:44] <neuro> it's in the man page
[14:44] <ali1234> you can't specify switches to the ubuntu dnsmasq instance
[14:44] <ali1234> but it is the right config option, you just have to put it in a special config file on ubuntu
[14:45] <neuro> so it goes in the config, it seems
[14:45] <neuro> server=/company.local/ip.addr.of.corpns
[14:45] <TwistedLucidity> Network Manager also overwrites many of the config files depending on GUI entries
[14:45] <neuro> e.g. server=/example.com/10.1.5.100
[14:45] <ali1234> yeah, you put that in a file in /etc/NetworkManager/dnsmasq.d
[14:45] <TwistedLucidity> What I can't find is which file is configuring dnsmasq
[14:45] <ali1234> and ubuntu will use it
[14:45] <neuro> yay, we solved it
[14:45] <TwistedLucidity> Ah, thanks; shall look now
[14:45] <neuro> do the happy dance
[14:45] <neuro> \o/
[14:46] <neuro> .o/
[14:46] <ali1234> i use this for namecoin resolution
[14:46] <neuro> \o.
[14:46] <MartijnVdS> neuro: *\o/* */o\* ?
[14:46] <neuro> pom poms?
[14:46] <neuro> really?
[14:46] <TwistedLucidity> So - daft question - what is the point of giving Network Manager DNS entries in the GUI if it ignores them?
[14:46] <MartijnVdS> neuro: aren't you happy?!
[14:46] <neuro> no
[14:47] <neuro> because Network Manager is consumer-grade software?
[14:47] <ali1234> TwistedLucidity: it doesn't ignore them, but you cannot specify a special DNS server for a specific domain through the gui
[14:47] <neuro> and you're trying to do some corporate/enterprise/server funkiness?
[14:47] <TwistedLucidity> Isn't that what "Search Domains" is for?
[14:47] <neuro> no
[14:47] <TwistedLucidity> Ah
[14:47] <neuro> that's so you can look up 'foo'
[14:48] <neuro> and get the details for 'foo.example.com
[14:48] <neuro> when you have 'example.com' in your search domains
[14:48] <MartijnVdS> well, it COULD be, if your company just published its internal hosts in public DNS
[14:48] <neuro> I DO THAT
[14:48] <MartijnVdS> shouldn't be a problem, as long as they (a) have a good firewall and/or (b) use RFC1918 addresses
[14:48] <TwistedLucidity> Yeah, I get that. And just above are the DNS servers. So "example.com" is directly related to them. Surely.
[14:49] <neuro> that's not what search domains means
[14:49] <neuro> it's like saying to a phone "your search domain is 01234" and then being able to dial 567890 instead of 01234 567890.
[14:49] <BigRedS> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1291383
[14:49] <BigRedS> for some reason ping is used for name resolution there...
[14:50] <neuro> the list of name servers and the search domains are unrelated
[14:50] <BigRedS> Oh, I guess you automatically get the ptr record from ping
[14:50] <neuro> yar
[14:50] <neuro> because it's nice and stuff
[14:50] <TwistedLucidity> neuro: I totally get that. But why doesn't it take the DNS servers I have explicitly told it about when it is trying adding one of the search domains.
[14:50]  * TwistedLucidity does not understand networking
[14:50] <neuro> TwistedLucidity: because they are unrelated
[14:51] <neuro> the search domains are just look up shortcuts
[14:51] <TwistedLucidity> Time get got married then!
[14:51] <ali1234> you might need strict-order in the config file too
[14:51] <TwistedLucidity> "Time they got..."
[14:51] <neuro> the name servers are just addresses to check one after the other until a result is returned
[14:51] <neuro> even if the result is NXDOMAIN
[14:52] <neuro> the server= config item is the magic bit
[14:52] <TwistedLucidity> So if I add some entries into /etc/NetworkManager/dnsmasq.d/foo; dnsmasq will (hopefully) know which DNS server to check when a particular Search Doman has been tagged on?
[14:52] <ali1234> yes
[14:52] <neuro> i can't answer that
[14:53] <neuro> there you go
[14:53] <neuro> i don't use dnsmasq, at all
[14:53] <ali1234> you have to restart network manager though
[14:53] <TwistedLucidity> Gonna test that in a sac
[14:53]  * neuro hugs bind
[14:53] <TwistedLucidity> Meh, comes preinstalled
[14:53] <neuro> meh, not fit for my purposes :)
[14:53] <neuro> i run one set of zone files
[14:53] <neuro> and push them out to all my name servers, both public and private
[14:54] <neuro> i use bind views to get RFC or public addresses respectively based on query source
[14:54] <neuro> i.e. split horizon
[14:55] <TwistedLucidity> Same problem - no Internet name resolution.
[14:55] <TwistedLucidity> Corporate name resoltuon also broken - Search Domains not being applied
[14:55] <TwistedLucidity> If I use the FQDN, that works
[14:55] <neuro> try adding the corp domain into search domains
[14:56] <TwistedLucidity> Already done
[14:56] <neuro> man 8 dnsmasq
[14:57] <neuro> or
[14:57] <neuro> https://kb.isc.org/article/AA-01031
[14:57] <TwistedLucidity> Kill eth1 and Internet comes back....interesting
[14:58] <ali1234> this is not a DNS issue
[14:58] <ali1234> this is a routing issue
[14:58] <neuro> it's also a dns issue
[14:58] <TwistedLucidity> This is a PEBKAC issues....
[14:58] <neuro> lol
[14:59]  * neuro gets back to trying to back up 110GiB of maildirs over a 4 meg link :P
[14:59] <TwistedLucidity> neuro: Thanks, but I am not throwing bind into the mix. Hard enough using the default software....
[15:01] <TwistedLucidity> It's working. HAH!
[15:02] <TwistedLucidity> I had to set "Use this connection only for resources on its network" on *both* eth0 and eth1
[15:02] <TwistedLucidity> No I will remove the server entry and (in theory) it will break again. Which I want because that means I'm editing the correct config
[15:04] <TwistedLucidity> And it still works. Whut? Oh well, it works. It'll do for now. Thanks for the help.
[15:05]  * TwistedLucidity wanders off to find a "Networking for total morons" class at the local tech college....
[15:05] <BigRedS> I think it's much easier to just not do networking
[15:05] <BigRedS> I make any networking problem someone else's
[15:06] <TwistedLucidity> Now it doesn't work >.< I changed nothing.
[15:08] <TwistedLucidity> It's reverted to corporate working an Internet not. Sod it, I have an easy answer.
[15:08] <TwistedLucidity> Turn the interface on/off as required
[15:21] <jussi> TwistedLucidity: you have an awesome nick. that is all.
[15:23] <MartijnVdS> TwistedLucidity: create a VM and bridge it with the corporate interface ;)
[15:23] <MartijnVdS> TwistedLucidity: then do work things on the VM instead
[15:27] <TwistedLucidity> MartijnVdS: This is in a VM....
[15:28] <TwistedLucidity> eth0 is bridged (and can only see local/Internet). eth1 is on NAT and can see the VPN running on the host.
[15:32] <shauno> OT:  I hate excel.  I really hate excel.
[15:32] <TwistedLucidity> shauno: I feel your pain
[15:34] <jussi> err what is the process "http" anyone know?
[15:34] <TwistedLucidity> Apache?
[15:34] <jussi> running as root...  and eating 25% of my cpu...
[15:35] <jussi> hrm, its on my desktop....
[15:35] <MartijnVdS> jussi: ps fax shows its parent
[15:35] <MartijnVdS> jussi: probably apt
[15:47] <TwistedLucidity> Cheers everyone - a wee bitty more fiddling and I *think* I got all the various configs/services aligned.
[15:47] <TwistedLucidity> Really annoying when you know *exactly* what you want to happen; you know it possible; but you simply can't see how.
[15:49] <TwistedLucidity> And it also doesn't help when the company's DNS doesn't agree with the DHCP server.....
[16:02] <TwistedLucidity> Yup...the DNS is disavowing all knowledge of the sever I am RDP'd into.
[16:02] <TwistedLucidity> Please excuse, I think I am going to have to do and hurt someone.
[16:04] <BigRedS> If I'm moving from a 686 machine to an amd64 one how much of a daft idea is it to rsync /etc/ between them?
[16:20] <TwistedLucidity> The dnsmasq "server=/" thing; can you give multiple entires for a "Search Domain"? I know "server=/foo.com/..." and "server=/www.foo.com/..." are accepted. Just can't tell from the docs if duplicates are.
[16:25] <TwistedLucidity> And why is it ignore /etc/hosts? GAH! I hate networking!
[16:27] <TwistedLucidity> Bug 993298 is why. *sigh*
[16:29] <ali1234> that's not actually a bug
[16:29] <ali1234> /etc/hosts works at the kernel level
[16:29] <ali1234> if you put an entry in it, it will never call out to the DNS server at all
[16:45] <TwistedLucidity> ali1234: Turned out that my issue was fat-finger-itis
[16:51] <davmor2> TwistedLucidity: don't let dick_turpin know you hang out here you'll get tarred with the same brush as popey and me ;)
[16:52] <popey> "meh"
[16:53] <davmor2> popey: that's just your cold/hayfever talking :D
[16:57] <TwistedLucidity> davmor2: I'm not important enough to be a target.
[16:58] <davmor2> TwistedLucidity: haha
[16:59] <TwistedLucidity> At least the Xubuntu intall today went better than last night's Fedora one. :-(
[16:59] <directhex> unrealengine 4 pricing: crazypants
[17:01] <davmor2> TwistedLucidity: \o/ we rock at installing
[17:02] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[17:02] <davmor2> bigcalm: Morning dude :D
[17:02] <bigcalm> Wonderfully productive morning without IRC ;)
[17:03] <davmor2> bigcalm: I don't believe you :D
[17:03] <bigcalm> davmor2: not coming tonight. Don't want my car to breakdown either to or from
[17:03] <davmor2> bigcalm: might not be there anyway too much stuff on
[17:17] <MooDoo> hello all
[17:34] <bubu> hey guys, anyone use non bash ( i.e. ruby ) pre/post install scripts for debian packages?
[17:37] <davmor2> MooDoo: me owld mucka
[17:37] <davmor2> Mez: how the blazes are you?
[17:38] <mapps> arghh
[17:38] <mapps> why must i smoke when im out ;(
[17:38] <mapps> yet again bought another pack of cigs at the casino..10 freaking pounds
[17:39] <davmor2> mapps: because when your out there is this overwhelm desire your friends have to set fire to you?
[17:39] <MooDoo> hello davmor2 at home cleaning up for a bit
[17:39] <mapps> heh
[17:39] <davmor2> MooDoo: no wonder you came on irc ;)
[17:39] <mapps> just an idiot
[17:40] <mapps> cant stop the drinking cant stop the gambling
[17:40] <MooDoo> davmor2: waiting for this irc meeting :D
[17:40] <mapps> so of course i start smoking again:D
[17:40] <davmor2> MooDoo: yeah yeah any excuse ;)
[17:40] <davmor2> mapps: you can you just have to want to
[17:40] <MooDoo> davmor2: shush the wife will see
[17:40] <davmor2> hahaha
[17:41] <mapps> easier said than done..my whole life is those two things
[17:41] <mapps> wakeup go on betfair/betfair forum..go to work watch sport (i work for a bookie) .finish work go to casino drink
[17:41] <mapps> go to tesco buy more
[17:41] <mapps> sleep repeat
[18:12] <mapps> yes judge judys on
[18:12] <mapps> love that show
[18:57] <davmor2> mapps: you really need help
[18:57] <MooDoo> +1
[19:17] <shauno> random question .. anyone know off-hand where I could find a parsable list of each country with its native spelling?  (I have a list in english, not a list in the 'official' name of each)
[19:19] <MooDoo>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_and_their_capitals_in_native_languages this?
[19:19] <shauno> it's almost on-topic because I'm blaming the brits for this one.  I have to make a second index of country names because the brits can never guess what their country is called :/
[19:19] <MooDoo> not sure about it being parsable though
[19:20] <shauno> hm, it'd be the closest I've found yet, ta.  I think I was mentally avoiding wiki so I didn't end up opening each country and copy/pasting
[19:21] <davmor2> shauno: technically it is the Americans it is American English on the interwebz no British English :P
[19:23] <shauno> ah, this is intrawebs, I have no americans to blame :)
[19:23] <davmor2> shauno: but the list you have will almost certainly still be American English :P
[19:24] <shauno> is, it's [the] united kingdom [of stuff].  great britain is an island.  but it's easier to search a second dictionary than teach people this :(
[19:24] <shauno> *ps
[19:28] <ali1234> why don't you just have a drop down box?
[19:30] <shauno> basically because the brits complain :(  is britain at the top, the uk at the bottom, or great britain in the middle?
[19:30] <MooDoo> I'm english not british :p
[19:31] <shauno> (also, we're using 'while you type' searches for everything else, so it keeps it all cohesive)
[19:38] <directhex> http://steamdb.info/app/20920/#section_history
[19:40] <shauno> gog weren't kidding!
[19:43] <davmor2> MooDoo: I think you'll find that is English little pride in the capital E if you please ;)
[19:44] <MooDoo> my apologise sir
[19:45] <davmor2> MooDoo: that's better, now for the Queen and Saint George Charge
[19:49] <shauno> no pride for the comma, eh?
[19:49] <directhex> saint george. patron saint of  Georgia, Egypt, Bulgaria, Aragon, Catalonia, Romania, Ethiopia, Greece, India, Iraq, Israel, Lebanon, Lithuania, Palestine, Portugal, Serbia, Ukraine, Russia and Syria
[19:49] <davmor2> shauno: No I hate coma's
[19:50] <MooDoo> I wish people would talk proper like what i does
[19:51] <shauno> directhex: you forgot England purposefully?
[19:53] <shauno> reminds me, accidentally watched the news this morning.  A lot of somebody's military in the ukraine/crimea/mess appeared to have scottish flags on their helmets.
[19:55] <directhex> shauno, yes!
[20:45] <diddledan> shauno: that'll be the newly independant scottish national front
[20:46] <diddledan> otherwise known as those ginger tits

[20:47] <shauno> :/  not cool man
[20:48] <diddledan> no?
[20:49] <shauno> no wonder they want to leave with stuff like that
[20:49] <diddledan> it's because they want to leave that I stir the pot