Unit193And, indicator-sound pulls in a nasty "dep" now. :/00:17
ochosiUnit193: which one?00:18
fibz_knome, because the xubuntu MSRq is a very common support question.00:18
knomethe channel shouldn't be full of factoid triggering though00:19
knomei haven't seen it asked that often really...00:19
Unit193ochosi: unity-greeter-session-broadcast -> url-dispatcher-tools -> url-dispatcher -> click (the stack.)00:20
knome"1gb" is three letters, "!requirements" is 13, even "!sysreq" is 700:20
ochosiUnit193: meh, that's annoying, can you file a bugreport about it? i can talk to larsu tomorrow00:20
ochosiUnit193: ideally just ping me with the bug-link and i'll bring it up, gotta go to bed now00:22
Unit193ochosi: I didn't even have to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/indicator-sound/+bug/129703400:31
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1297034 in indicator-sound (Ubuntu) "Do I really need 17 click or phone related packages on a Desktop install?" [Undecided,New]00:31
Unit193Hahaha!  Unity user too!00:31
slickymasterknome: "Update Wikipedia with up-to-date information" -> you are referring to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xubuntu#Xubuntu_14.04_LTS and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xubuntu#Applications only, right?00:39
slickymasterand probably same changes in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xubuntu#Goals ought to be done00:40
slickymastermirroring the new recommended system resources -specs00:41
bluesabre0micahg: if you happen to be around, we've got the ack to upload light-locker-1.4.002:11
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1296456 in light-locker (Ubuntu) "[FFe] Upgrade to light-locker 1.4.0" [High,Triaged]02:11
bluesabre0I will follow that with a light-locker-settings release tomorrow (will need another sets of approvals)02:12
Noskcaj_schoolCan someone with triage rights have a look at all the thunar crashed with SIGSEGV in g_slice_free1()  bugs?02:48
micahgbluesabre0: why not land them together?02:51
bluesabre0micahg, working on the release now02:51
bluesabre0knome, micahg, ochosi, lderan: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-locker-settings/+bug/129705803:33
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1297058 in light-locker-settings (Ubuntu) "[FFe] [UIFe] Please update light-locker-settings to 1.2.0" [Undecided,Confirmed]03:33
micahgbluesabre0: make sure you get lubuntu sign-off as well since it's seeded by them03:34
bluesabre0ok, will do, micahg03:34
bluesabre0#join #lubuntu-devel03:34
micahgdo they have a dev channel now?03:35
bluesabre0sent a ping out at #lubuntu03:39
bluesabre0heading to bed now, let me know if you need me to change/update anything03:40
fibz_i can confirm the wallpaper switching bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfdesktop4/+bug/129561403:44
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1295614 in xfdesktop "xfdesktop leaking memory on wallpaper change (ubuntu 14.04 with xfce)" [Medium,Confirmed]03:44
Unit193bluesabre0: gilir isn't on IRC right now, and doesn't generally idle.04:01
bluesabre0Unit193: do you have a suggestion, or should I subscribe him to that bug?04:03
Noskcajali1234, You were looking at thunar crashes weren't you?05:53
NoskcajBecause there's around 10 different "thunar crashed with SIGSEGV in g_slice_free1()" bugs, all set to private. all are from since the 13.10 release05:54
elfyochosi: it'd take more than some random guy on a random channel in freenode randomly agreeing with a bug I reported to make me happy :)07:20
elfypleia2 knome - can someone socialise the final beta test call please07:24
elfyknome: I started draft for final beta release notes 09:32
ubottubluesabre, elfy, GridCube, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, mr_pouit, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, skellat, slickymaster, Unit19309:34
elfyI would appreciate as many of you as possible to test the Final Beta before it's too late - thanks :)09:35
elfyfirst new bug for beta ... bug 129717009:57
ubottubug 1297170 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Live Session starts with XFCE wallpaper" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/129717009:57
bluesabre0thats an improvement10:03
bluesabre0we had the debian wp for a bit10:03
bluesabre0I'll test the beta tonight10:03
elfystill get Debian swirl under the try and install buttons too10:04
elfybluesabre0: this new one is the desktop wallpaper once it boots the livesession10:05
bluesabre0ah, gotcha10:05
elfyand once installed - same wallpaper10:13
bluesabre0ochosi... didn't you commit a fix for the wallpaper?10:14
elfyhi brainwash 10:48
brainwashhey elfy10:51
slickymasterWorkhey brainwash 10:51
brainwashsaw your wallpaper report10:51
brainwashhello slickymasterWork 10:51
brainwashso we are ready for the final beta... and the xubuntu wallpaper is not being displayed (xfce one instead)10:52
elfybrainwash: atm we get both wallpaper bugs - debian at the Try/Install stage - then XFCE on live session and after install10:55
elfyand the ibus one ... ;)10:55
brainwashthe user will be confused10:56
elfyI also got this today - couldn't be bothered to file a new one - cub says he's going to do that 10:56
elfybug 120176210:56
ubottubug 1201762 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Install from live session: Failed detection of keyboard layout" [Undecided,Expired] https://launchpad.net/bugs/120176210:56
elfywhich could well be tied up with the other issue I guess10:56
elfyok so that's seriously bizarre 11:00
elfyinstall - get xfce wallpaper - install to test resize - get xubuntu wallpaper11:01
brainwashelfy: want to mark bug 1294209 as incomplete? we got basically not information other than the desktop did freeze at some point11:01
ubottubug 1294209 in xfdesktop4 (Ubuntu) "Deleting files from desktop freezes machine for short period" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/129420911:01
brainwashmaybe due to the user configuration, hardware setup, driver malfunction11:01
elfyI just commented 11:02
elfybrainwash: if it is something like that then I'd wonder why I don't see the same behaviour elsewhere11:02
brainwashok, so it's the same user account?11:02
brainwashcan you test with a different user please11:03
elfyanyway - bbl 11:03
elfynot today I can't - I am smack bang in the middle of testing beta's 11:03
elfyoh - forget the bizarre behaviour now the desktop is up it is XFCE - but I did see xubuntu before desktop loads11:04
ochosibluesabre0: no, haven't looked at the wallpaper bug at all. waiting for knome to finish the wallpaper...11:14
ochosiUnit193: hey, did you eventually report a bug about indicator-sound's changed depends?11:15
ochosiknome, micahg: (1) ubuntu uses/installs ibus by default11:27
ochosiknome, micahg: (2) they use indicator-keyboard, which relies on unity-settings-daemon to apply all settings (i.e. we can't/don't want to use that)11:27
ochosiknome, micahg: (3) i think we should a) debug that problem better and get to the bottom of it and b) hide the trayicon by default, as that was also the case previously and it's only needed for ppl with >1 kb-layout/input-lang (and they have to set those up via ibus-prefs, where they can activate the trayicon if they want)11:29
ochosielfy: would you be available (or: when?) for helping with (3) a) ? ^11:30
brainwashochosi: will hiding the trayicon solve the problem? the daemon is still running in the background11:34
ochosibrainwash: no, that's why it's only b)11:43
ochosiat least i presume it won't solve the problem, but then again, how would i know, i've never experienced the bug11:43
elfyochosi: when? 11:44
ochosielfy: whenever we're both available i guess11:44
elfywill be a bit later on - painting and testing atm11:45
ochosisounds good11:45
ochosijust ping me, i *should* be available for some debugging11:45
ochosior can you already judge about when that'd be?11:46
elfywell I was hoping to get away with 2 coats ... but it's not looking good lol11:48
elfyochosi: are you about this evening ?11:48
ochosihm, evenings are a mixed bag11:48
ochosican't really say11:48
elfyok - well I'm holiday all week so ... 11:49
brainwashochosi: simply create a new user and select en_GB on the login screen11:58
brainwashlog in and see what the try icon says11:58
ochosiwhat happens for you when you do that?11:59
brainwashthe tray icon lists en_US12:00
brainwashoh ****12:00
brainwashdesktop icon are not sized properly12:00
brainwashconfig window says 48px, but it only changes to a bigger size after adjusting the icon size manually12:01
brainwashso it's ~32px on a fresh login12:02
brainwash+ new account12:02
ochosibut the greeter doesn't mess with ibus or the kb-layout at all, it only sets the locale12:02
ochosiso if you don't set en_GB as keyboard layout during installation time, how should it be shown by ibus?12:03
brainwashwhat about new user accounts?12:04
ochosithose will use the system settings by default i guess12:04
ochosiwe don't have a special dialogue where you're asked about keyboard-layout after you selected it in ubiquity12:04
elfybrainwash: delete from desktop works ok for a new user12:05
brainwashelfy: thanks for testing12:05
brainwashochosi: so switching the language to en_GB does not alter the kb layout to en_GB, or ibus is simply not able to map it this way12:06
ochosibrainwash: that's only the language in the greeter, as i said. that has no effect on the kb-layout12:07
brainwashyes, that's what I said12:08
ochosithere's even a patch for adding a greeter-native kb-layout-switcher, but we simply haven't had the time to review/include that12:08
ochosiyup, that's it12:08
ochosiso i'm wondering whether this is not a misunderstanding maybe instead of a bug12:08
ochosiat least i don't know how to reproduce it here now12:08
ochosiand my connection is too bad to dl an iso-file12:09
ochosiwhich is why i wanted someone to test this from the start12:09
brainwashso we need to know what happens if ibus is not present and new user account is created12:09
elfya misunderstanding?12:09
elfybrainwash: I can test that 12:12
ochosibrainwash: well we'd want to test again starting from the installer12:13
ochosielfy: yeah, in the sense that you could have forgotten to define the kb-layout to en_GB in the installer and hence the default en_US is used by ibus12:14
ochosiand since the greeter's language menu could be mistaken for a kb-layout-switcher, you thought you could change it there12:14
elfyochosi: not the case - I tried more than once, and in lubuntu and studio and ubuntu and kubuntu and 5 beta tests today12:15
ochosijust wanting to make sure12:15
elfyyou set keyboard during install and it ignores it :)12:15
elfyyep - that's ok 12:15
ochosiwell i dunno, i set it to DE and that works fine12:15
elfyand I've had numerous people with UK keyboards all confirm it :)12:15
brainwashen_AU too, or?12:16
brainwashbasically all the variants I think12:16
elfybrainwash: nope - just UK 12:17
ochosithat's weird12:17
elfyyou can add UK to ibus and that works - or purge ibus and that works - but the issue is that we didn't get this when ibus wasn't in the panel12:19
elfyand you shouldn't have to do either of those things 12:20
ochosielfy: so when you disable the trayicon and restart your session that works?12:20
brainwashochosi: bug 127205712:29
ubottubug 1272057 in xfdesktop4 (Ubuntu) "Desktop icon size is not explicitly defined" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/127205712:29
brainwashicons should be now 48px, but they are smaller when you create a new account12:32
brainwashcould be related to the recent style change problem12:32
elfyochosi: checking12:38
elfyochosi: so - setting ibus to not show in panel then logout/in makes no difference 12:43
ochosielfy: yeah, thought so.13:16
ochosielfy: what does localectl say about your Layout?13:18
knomehey elfy 13:38
knomeochosi, 13:38
knomecomments: http://xubuntu.org/about/13:38
ochosiknome: sounds good to me!13:40
elfyand me 13:41
knomedo you use text-to-speech?13:41
knomeyou too?!13:41
elfysounds like the allman brothers atm13:41
knomeok, i'll mark the work item for that "DONE", we can improve later13:41
elfyknome: wait13:41
knomeit's DONE, but feel free to comment :P13:42
elfyochosi: I'll do that as soon as this one has installed13:42
elfycomments are \o/ 13:42
elfylooking at sentences and spelling now ... 13:42
knomei'll release the edit lock13:42
knomeso if you feel like it, just go and fix13:42
elfyoh d'oh - can do it myself lol13:42
elfy The community infrastructure and communication should be made as good as possible to enable 13:44
elfynot sure what to do with that sentence though ... 13:45
elfyI added a 'be' is all :)13:45
knomewell could be just "should be as good ..."13:45
elfymmm - it's the as possible as well 13:46
elfyhow about "The community infrastructure and communication should be robust enough to enable the contributors to direct their efforts into making Xubuntu better and not resolve irrelevant issues.13:46
elfyknome: ^^13:47
knomeyeah worksforme13:48
elfyall done then :)13:49
* elfy likes recommended system resources by the way 13:50
elfyochosi: nothing unexpected in locaectl http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/7151268/13:53
micahgochosi: your plan sounds fine13:54
knomehey micahg 13:54
micahghi knome 13:55
knomewhat's up?13:55
knomealso, nice to see you around more13:55
knomeslickymasterWork, ubiquity slideshow translation issues resolved13:56
* elfy is not doing anymore tests today 13:59
knomeyeah, fair ;13:59
* knome is translating the slideshow13:59
elfyI purged vbox as well :p13:59
elfynot doing any tomorrow either :D13:59
elfygood old Mr Elkins has weighed in on testing :)14:00
ali1234what do you mean "irrelevant issues"?14:00
ochosielfy: when going to the ibus preferences (in the settings manager) in the advanced tab, is "use system keyboard layout" ticked14:05
ochosielfy: or is "customize active input methods" ticked in the "input method" tab? or both?14:06
ochosii'm wondering whether we just need different default settings for ibus, e.g. use the system layout by default14:06
ochosiwould be nice if you could check what combination of settings resolves the issue for you14:07
knomeali1234, like fighting with skype that doesn't work...14:08
knomeali1234, or not having a bug tracker...14:09
knomeali1234, or not having the tools to track blueprints...14:09
ali1234skype works fine here14:09
knomeali1234, or not having the communication medias...14:09
ali1234but i see what you mean14:09
knomeit's more behind-the-curtains14:09
ali1234yeah that's not clear from the page. "making Xubuntu better and not resolve irrelevant issues." sounds like you want to top-down dictate which bugs *in xubuntu* we fix and which ones we ignore14:10
ali1234i know that's not true, but that's how it reads14:10
knomeit is... look at the context14:10
ali1234not really14:10
ali1234"enable the contributors to direct their efforts into making Xubuntu better and not resolve irrelevant issues"14:11
ali1234reads the same as14:11
ali1234"enable the contributors to direct their efforts into making Xubuntu better by resolving relevant issues"14:11
ali1234i would just end the sentence after "better."14:12
knomeelfy, ^14:13
ali1234irrelevant issues are irrelevant, lol14:13
ali1234or perhaps irrelevant isn't quite the right word. perhaps "peripheral" would be better, if it weren't already overloaded in the computing world14:14
knomeperipheral things *are* which we want to improve14:14
knomein a way...14:14
ali1234yes, so that contributors don't have to14:14
ali1234but people might think of "peripheral" as in their printer14:14
knomethe contributors might have to do that as well :P14:14
ali1234"why u no fix my printer driver?"14:15
knomewell that's not what we are talking at all in that section14:15
ali1234i know14:15
knomei guess you can *always* misunderstand14:15
ochosiali1234: that question could go into the FAQ ;)14:15
knomethere is no way to make it completly unambiguous14:15
ali1234i know exactly what you mean, now you've explained it :)14:15
knomeespecially since we explain more of it in the strategy document14:16
knomethis is just a brief overview14:16
ali1234also grammar wise it should me "resolving" not "resolve" so that it matches "making"14:16
knomeochosi, allö14:17
knomeochosi, is there really a "Desktop Settings" -item in the settings manager?14:17
knomeor isn't it just "Desktop" ?14:17
ali1234unless you mean "should be made as good as possible and not reolve irrelevant issues" - which actually makes sense... hmm14:17
ochosiknome: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-2014-03-25-151742.php14:18
knomeochosi, why you write "Desktop Settings" in slideshow?14:18
knomeor, Y U14:18
ochosidid i?14:18
GridCubenice to see you are up to the current internet trends knome 14:18
ochosiif i did, i meant "Desktop settings"14:19
knomeweirdly enough, it's not translated to finnish...14:19
* ochosi needs coffee14:20
* knome stubbornly translates14:20
knomewe need more xfce translations downstream14:20
knomeand i need xfce translation access14:20
knomeochosi, it's in the "app path", so it should be as the item says, not anything additional14:21
elfyochosi: when I've gone to ibus settings in the recent past it has had 'use system keyboard layout' ticked14:21
elfywhich is also set in the keyboard settings in settings-manager as US 14:21
elfyso fiddling with a default isn't going to help14:22
ali1234yeah so the problem with that sentence is it isn't clear if it means "the infrastructure should not solve irrelevant issues" or "contributors should not solve irrelevant issues"14:22
elfyochosi: just checked one of todays installs - concurs with that 14:23
elfyochosi: ibus would be fine where it is I suspect if the system keyboard layout was set correctly14:24
slickymasterWorkknome: thanks for the heads up on ubiquity slideshow14:47
slickymasterWorkafter uploading it, I'll take a look at the about page14:47
knomeslickymasterWork, after looking at the about page, look at the tour page ;)14:48
slickymasterWorkalright. Anyway what was the problem with the ubiquity pot files?14:48
knomethey were stuck in the import queue14:49
knomefor some unknown reason14:49
slickymasterWorkwell, what it matters is that is fixed :)14:50
knomeimports were forced today14:54
knomei did a few tweets on twitter, those of you who are registered, please retweet:14:55
* slickymasterWork doesn't have twitter14:58
elfyknome: super - was just about to ask if that had been done :)14:59
* elfy doesn't have twitter either14:59
GridCubeknome, question, in "We'd love to hear about your experiences with Xubuntu. You can share them on the <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-users">Xubuntu users mailing list</a>" should i add that its only in english?15:07
knomethat would be fair15:08
cmarsi just discovered the whisker menu. is this new in trusty or am I just a slowpoke?15:10
knomethe whiskermenu is enabled by default the first time in trusty15:10
cmarsi must have had an old profile :)15:10
GridCube:/ i've done the translations but it doesnt accept them15:11
knomeare you in the spanish translation team for ubuntu?15:12
GridCubeprobably not15:12
knomethat's why they aren't accepted15:12
GridCubei asked to join15:13
knomeyep, cool15:14
slickymasterWorkknome: ubiquity pot file uploaded15:19
slickymasterWorkin https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/trusty/+source/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/+imports its status is Needs Review15:19
knomeslickymasterWork, huh?15:20
knomepo file you mean?15:20
knomeapparently, i can't approve that...15:21
slickymasterWorkdo you have any idea of who gets to review the translations? local teams? is there any automatic trigger that launches the review call?15:21
slickymasterWorkyes, I meant po file :P15:21
knomei've no idea15:21
slickymasterWorkmy fear is that the review call might end up lying in Portuguese translators mailing list team15:23
knomewell, poke them15:23
slickymasterWorkand no one will do anything15:23
knomeif they aren't active, apply to be an admin15:23
* elfy lends slickymasterWork his sharp forum poking stick15:23
knomeand approve yourself ;)15:23
slickymasterWorkthat team is in some sort of a limb state15:23
elfylimbo :)15:24
slickymasterWorkthanks elfy ;)15:24
elfyunless it's 'armless ... 15:24
slickymasterWorkin the meanwhile, I'll think I'll copy/paste each string into rosetta15:24
slickymasterWorkat least I'll get things done15:24
knomeelfy, well done15:25
elfysorry - had to be done ... 15:25
knomethe pt.po is approved15:32
slickymasterWorkknome: oddly the po file status is now 'Approved'15:37
slickymasterWorkwho the hell approve it? 15:37
elfy[15:32] <knome> the pt.po is approved15:37
elfy[15:36] <knome> bbl15:37
elfyyou'd quit 15:38
slickymasterWorkyeah, it's this lousy connectivity I have here :P15:38
slickymasterWorkthanks knome 15:39
slickymasterWorkand thanks elfy, always a gentleman15:39
elfywelcome as always :)15:39
ochosielfy: but the system keyboard is set correctly, you confirmed that with the localectl output15:42
ochosiand afaik xfce's keyboard-settings have "use system default" as default15:42
elfyochosi: yes agreed15:45
elfyand it used to work fine for me :)15:45
elfyI'd sya perhaps it's ubiquity - but then wouldn't the greeter want to use US15:47
pleia2posted call for testing on fb and g+15:49
ochosielfy: the greeter uses the system settings and you can't change the layout there15:50
ochosibut yeah, the only pointer we have so far is that removing ibus fixed things for you...15:51
ochosi(and that's not very much, tbh)15:51
elfypleia2: ta :)15:53
brainwashnot very much? :D15:53
elfyochosi: yea :( so - from what I can observe greeter uses system settings - which at that point is GB, then once logged in system sets to US 15:54
ochosielfy: that's misleading15:54
ochosiit doesn't use the system settings once logged15:54
ochosithat's exactly your problem15:55
ochosiit gets overridden by en_US for some odd reason15:55
ochosiif it would use the system settings (like the greeter), everything would be dandy15:55
brainwashwas the output of localectl already posted?15:55
ochosithis is it ^15:56
elfyyes - but if you go look at gui's then once logged in system settings appear as US15:56
brainwashthe xfce keyboard settings dialog?15:56
brainwashbut xfce is told to use the system default15:57
brainwashso my system kb layout is DE, but if I create a new user account the user layout is set to en_US (ibus)15:59
ochosibrainwash: and localectl says DE?16:03
brainwashochosi: de, nodeadkeys16:05
brainwashso yeah, a bit strange16:05
ochosiso the question is, where does ibus get that info from?16:06
brainwashaccountsservice does save input_sources per user account16:06
brainwashmaybe if that info is missing...16:06
brainwashlike for a new user16:06
elfyaren't we looking at this the wrong way - why worry about a new user - and not just worry about what someone installing is getting16:07
elfyalso - just did a vm upgrade test, so someone with a perfectly working keyboard set up in 12.04 ends up with a fubar one in 14.0416:08
ochosielfy: well i suppose that'd be the same (new user = new install)16:08
brainwashand we should care about new users too!16:09
elfymmm - possibly, but a new install is getting information input during install 16:09
elfybrainwash: I'll care about new users when ones telling the damned thing what they want are ok :p16:11
brainwashso telling ibus to use the system xkb layout does not help?16:13
elfyyes it does16:14
elfyI've said that at some point16:15
elfybut that is beside the point - as you have to go and do it :)16:15
brainwashright, we can apply this setting via xubuntu-default-settings16:16
brainwashuntil we know what is really going on16:16
ochosithat is one way to deal with it16:16
elfyok - so who's going to check all the languages ;)16:16
ochosiwhy would that be necessary?16:17
ochosii thought that works generally?16:17
elfyno idea ochosi 16:17
ochosii thought you "said that at some point"?16:18
elfyor can we set the setting to be whatever the system layout is16:18
elfyochosi: I did - I checked for me 16:18
ochosinah, using the system layout is the only thing i think16:19
ochosii'm not even sure yet how ibus stores its config16:19
elfyI did try to find something but couldn't 16:19
elfyif we can do that and it works then that's better than not having ibus16:20
elfythis whole thing is confusing me completely :)16:21
brainwashbut changing the setting might mess with upgraders who configured ibus to use different input methods16:25
ochosibrainwash: no, upgraders will always keep their settings16:26
ochosiwe can only set the default anyway16:26
brainwashno, we are talking about gsettings key16:27
brainwashif the change the default, it will affect all users who did not alter the key yet16:28
brainwashif we16:28
ochosiso ibus stores its settings only in gsettings?16:28
ochosino rc file or anything?16:28
ochosii mean no way to ship a default config for it?16:29
brainwashI think no, only saw the gsettings stuff16:30
elfyochosi brainwash - not sure if this is of any interest, had a 12.04 vm, keyboard is set to GB, setup ibus with the chinese layouts available, upgraded to 14.04 - keyboard is now US17:23
brainwashochosi: we need https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9199#c217:36
ubottubugzilla.xfce.org bug 9199 in General "Desktop icons shrink when opening "Desktop Settings" for the first time" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]17:36
ochosibrainwash: yeah, that looks like it makes sense :)17:38
brainwashthe desktop is pretty messed up right now :D17:39
brainwashsmaller desktop icons, non transparent labels, wrong wallapper17:39
brainwash"final beta"17:39
brainwashand I'm not sure what to do packaging wise, wait for a new xfdesktop point release or just apply patches directly, maybe eben revert bad commits17:43
ochosiwell the wallpaper is going to be fixed by the UIFe i guess17:44
brainwashwhy is it broken?17:46
brainwashdid you change the path so it's pointing to the trusty wallpaper already?17:47
brainwashelfy: this needs to be discussed in #ubuntu-desktop and/or -devel17:53
galbiif install xubuntu 14.04 BETA now will i be able to upgrade to the official release without burning a new iso?17:54
holsteingalbi: yes17:55
galbiso some day i will receive the notification that a new version is avaiable like when upgrading from previous stable versions17:56
holsteinyou are already on 14.04.. so, you should just upgrade as you want to upgrade, and get the upgrades17:56
galbieven simpler17:56
holsteinsudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade is what i would be doing, while keeping track of things in..17:57
ubottuUbuntu 14.04 (Trusty Tahr) will be the 20th release of Ubuntu.  See the announcement at http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1295 for more info. support in #ubuntu+117:57
holstein^ #ubuntu+1 channel17:57
holsteinand here, as well17:57
elfybrainwash: have fun then ;)17:59
=== jono is now known as Guest59567
brainwashhey jhenke 18:54
brainwashhey Noskcaj 19:58
Noskcajmorning brainwash 19:59
dkesselwow... what is the cause of these new desktop bugs? is the xubuntu-default-settings changes? or could it have been discovered with earlier daily isos?19:59
brainwashNoskcaj: can you please mark bug 1294600 as wishlist? :)19:59
ubottubug 1294600 in xfwm4 (Ubuntu) "Add support for tear-free compositing in Xfce" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/129460019:59
brainwashdkessel: what new bugs?19:59
dkesselbrainwash: I mean your message at about 18:39:2520:01
brainwashsadly we got a bit unlucky20:02
brainwashthe wallpaper one is new, the label one is a recent regression and the icon size problem has not been noticed so far20:03
ochosibrainwash: i haven't looked yet, i'll look when the new wall is ready20:24
ochosielfy: 're you around?20:41
ochosii just started to talk to attente in #ubuntu-desktop about the ibus bug20:42
ochosihe hasn't replied yet20:42
elfyshall I pop in there then20:42
ochosii just described a bit what we're seeing so far20:42
ochosiyes, that was the implication ;)20:42
elfyI thought so :p20:43
ochosijust to make sure i don't tell something that's not true :p20:43
ochosibacklog coming up via PM20:43
elfyta - and who is attente?20:44
elfysomething to do with a flavour? or?20:44
ochosiseb128 recommended him20:45
ochosino, unity guy i guess 20:45
elfyok 20:45
ochosi(haven't talked to him before)20:45
brainwashochosi: <property name="workspace0" type="empty"> ?20:45
brainwashso you did not change the wallpaper path/filename20:46
brainwashbut the xml structure20:46
brainwashI'm confused :D20:47
elfyochosi: updated 12.04 to 14.04 has old menu still - is that expected?20:55
ochosipanel-layout and personal settings are never overridden by upgrades20:57
elfyok - not a problem then :D20:57
ochosi(unless there's a migration-script, which there isn't)20:57
brainwashright, a script for the first start after the upgrade would be nice20:58
ochosinot sure20:59
brainwashto ask the user if the wants to keep his old panel layout or apply the new one20:59
brainwashif he20:59
ochosipossible, but not necessary20:59
ochosistaying out of the way is nice too20:59
ochosiby default20:59
* elfy lols at ochosi bearing testament to elfy being a whiner :)20:59
ochosii'd rather have ali1234's nice panel layout switcher app20:59
ochosielfy: you're welcome ;)21:00
brainwashochosi: so what's the issue with the xfdesktop config file?21:00
ali1234it has completely changed21:01
ali1234but it also supports the "old" style21:01
ali1234the new format uses monitor plug names, so you can't make a "default" setup using it at all21:01
ali1234you have to use the old one, and let it convert it at first startup21:01
ochosibrainwash: i'll look into that later, still waiting to sort out ibus first...21:01
ali1234this has "issues" which are quite complex and would take me a few pages of text to explain21:02
ali1234also you'd need to read the code as well21:02
dkesselelfy what about the other KB layout bug from saucy that stopped when ibus was removed? don't know if it helps to mention this...21:03
brainwashit's https://code.launchpad.net/~ochosi/xubuntu-default-settings/xfdesktop_background21:03
brainwashsee the diff21:04
ali1234that tear-free bug should be "opinion" or "wontfix" as appropriate :)21:04
ali1234we already have tear-free on open source drivers, and opengl X compositing sucks on the proprietary drivers21:05
brainwashso you don't plan to improve it by implementing an opengl backend? =S21:05
ali1234hell no21:05
ali1234it won't get fixed until nvidia supports dri3 and present21:06
ali1234then we can do tear-free without opengl21:06
ali1234everything else already has tear-free afaik21:06
ali1234if you want opengl compositing use compton21:06
ali1234i think i posted that on the bug already21:07
ochosiyeah, that'd be one reason to switch to nouveau. broken suspend and broken powermanagement is the downside though :>21:07
ali1234it doesn't actually fix the problem though21:07
brainwashit's not about me, it's about improving the user experience by default21:07
brainwashfor everyone21:07
ali1234opengl compositing won't improve it. it will just make it slower21:07
ali1234it doesn't actually fix tearing even21:07
ali1234i don't literally mean you brainwash, i mean users in general :)21:08
brainwashwe could integrate compton into xfce, but that's a no-go too21:08
ali1234the only way to fix it is using present21:09
ali1234and that isn't supported anywhere yet21:09
ali1234but it will be21:09
ali1234and i already implemented it in xfwm21:09
ali1234so yeah21:09
brainwashoh, or use Xmir :D21:09
ali1234i don't think either Xmir or Xwayland support present. but it would be amazing if they did21:09
ochosiali1234: do you have a non-nvidia graphics card or did you test it with nouveau?21:09
ali1234test what?21:10
ali1234present support?21:10
ochositear-free present with xfwm421:10
ali1234right, X in trusty has present, but without dri3 present still tears21:10
ali1234so i can test that present support works (because it draws stuff) but it still tears until nvidia supports dri321:10
ochosiso you never got to enjoy the full goodness of your patch?21:10
ali1234currently no drivers support dri321:11
ali1234probably keith packard is the only person in the world who could currently get benefit from the patch :)21:11
ochosihe patched the intel driver for dri3?21:13
ali1234and mesa21:13
ochosicrap, will take a while to trickle down21:13
ochosii remember the present-presentation now21:13
ochosii saw it when it was linked on phoronix21:13
ochosiand he said that he can't look at normal X sessions with tearing anymore now 21:13
ochosithat made me very very sad21:14
ali1234tearing is annoying but awful slow opengl compositing is worse21:14
ali1234that's why i stopped using compiz21:14
ochosiyeah, i never managed to use compton for more than 10mins21:14
ali1234did i tell you, i got the compton dev to implement hybrid compositing?21:15
ali1234it uses xrander to compose all the windows, then draws the final result with opengl21:16
ali1234it actually works pretty well21:16
ali1234much less tearing, and smaller performance hit21:16
ali1234but it is kind of a crazy hack21:16
ochosioh, what does that to21:16
ochosiah i remember21:16
ochosithat was your idea from a while ago21:16
ochosibefore the present presentation21:16
ochosiwell crazy hack my ass if it works :)21:17
ali1234give it a try :)21:17
ochosiis it released already?21:17
ali1234it's on the git repo21:17
* ochosi checks21:17
ali1234it's not a perfect solution21:18
ali1234i'd rather wait for present/dri3 to become available, before i start rewriting huge parts of the compositor21:18
ochosiit's this one, right?21:19
ochosiyeah, i understand21:19
ochosiseems to be the same guy who works on skippy-xd21:19
ochosii have never read the code, only heard that it's very hacky21:19
ali1234yeah, here is the commit: https://github.com/chjj/compton/commit/fbd70e146c6fa46250dc2b435afb347c3cf5453921:19
ochosibut it would be nice if it were available in xubuntu for installing at least21:19
ali1234compton is almost identical to xfwm's compositor, except with opengl support added in21:20
ali1234they're both based on xcompmgr, and so is metacity21:21
ali1234which is why i could easily implement present: keithp already patched metacity (and he wrote xcompmgr in the first place too)21:21
ochosiany special build stuff?21:21
ochosi(for the compton hybrid support)21:21
ali1234no don't think so, you just need the right runtime options of which there are many21:22
ochosihmm ok21:22
ochosiyou wouldn't happen to have a config file?21:22
ali1234never needed one21:23
ali1234check compton --help21:23
brainwashwow, really feels faster21:25
ali1234it has about 5 different ways of compositing, you should try them all21:25
ali1234different ones work better on different cards21:25
brainwashI like this hybrid one21:25
ali1234hybrid gives the best experience for me, but it also uses the most CPU by far21:26
brainwashalready switching between workspaces for like a whole minute :D21:26
ochosigah, what's the libGL package name in ubuntu again?21:26
ali1234"sudo apt-get build-dep compton"21:26
ochosioh, i didnt realize it was in the 14.04 repos :)21:27
ali1234apparently it is. probably an old version thugh21:27
brainwash2013-11-04 21:28
ali1234doesn't appear to have it21:29
ochosiali1234: you should get the zoom-patch in compton too ;)21:30
ali1234well the problem is how to tell it to zoom21:30
ochosii already miss that one21:30
ali1234xfwm catches the keyboard shortcuts21:30
ali1234we discussed adding a dbus interface so that xfwm can request the compositor to zoom in21:31
ochosii forgot about that21:32
ochosihumm, the hybrid backend still has quite a bit of tearing21:32
ochosiwith e.g. resizing windows21:32
ochosiwill try video-playback next21:32
ochosi(didn't use any options apart from the backend xr_glx_hybrid)21:32
brainwashit feels like I'm using a new laptop21:33
ali1234there are a few options which might affect it21:33
ali1234but i don't remember all of them21:34
ali1234i think the stencil buffer was one21:34
ali1234yeah that pretty much covers it :)21:36
ochosiseems like the fullscreen playback is a bit smoother with it21:36
ali1234for me it moves the tear to very near the top of the screen21:36
ali1234so it's less noticable21:36
ali1234there are better ways to test tearing21:37
ali1234(and framerate) - ideally you need a 60fps video21:37
ochosivery high cpu usage is what i get21:38
brainwashyou have to pay the price21:39
ochosiyeah, but it's so high that even windows move less smoothly than with xfwm421:39
brainwashI usually don't move windows21:40
brainwashbut website scrolling is super smooth now too21:40
ochosiit's worse for me :)21:42
ali1234/usr/lib/xscreensaver/lcdscrub -no-hb -no-hw -no-vw -no-dw -no-db -no-w -no-b -spread 5 -fps -delay 1600021:42
ali1234try that21:42
ali1234it's in xscreensaver-data-extra21:42
ali1234stuttering and tearing will be *very* obvious21:43
* ochosi installs21:44
ali1234adjust delay to make it run as close to your refresh rate as possible21:44
ochosinot sure i have the nerves to tweak compton so much that it works nicely21:44
brainwashI don't care that much about minimal tearing, rendering just has to be quick21:44
ochosiyeah, much better with compton21:46
ochosiali1234: ^21:46
ochosiwithout any compositor i get crazy tearing there21:46
brainwashit's so funny, I'm used to the slowness of firefox, but now it feels like I'm using chromium with a firefox skin21:46
ochosiif only it wouldn't swallow my cpu, i guess i could use it21:46
brainwashthe difference is huge21:47
ali1234you sure it's not just placebo effect?21:47
ali1234these things can be very subjective21:47
ali1234it's not really possible to say one is "better" than another in my experience21:48
brainwashyes, maybe I'm a bit too hyped21:48
ali1234unless one is perfect and the other isn't21:48
ali1234and as of yet i haven't seen any perfect compositor21:48
ochosii guess part of my problem is that i'm using the external monitor21:48
ochosiwith the internal laptop screen it'd be faster, cause it has less resolution :)21:49
ali1234(but i have seen fullscreen video playback when it's perfect)21:49
ali1234external monitor will always tear without present21:49
ali1234because monitors don't have exactly the same refresh rate. they're not all perfect 60Hz synced21:49
ali1234but opengl vsync can only be synced to one display21:50
ochosiit's not a dualhead setup though, laptop monitor is disabled21:51
Unit193ochosi: No, I never did, saw that someone else had filed one 32 seconds before I checked the bug lists.21:54
knomeslickymaster, magic, my son, magic.. ;)22:00
ochosiUnit193: link?22:02
elfyas if by magic, the shokeeper appeared22:02
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1297034 in indicator-sound (Ubuntu) "The update brings click packages on the desktop where they are not needed" [High,In progress]22:02
Unit193(Core dev complained about it too.)22:03
elfyread something about that somewhere22:03
ochosiUnit193: right, already inprogress, that'll get fixed till release22:04
knomeelfy... is there something you think needs further discussion on the QA cycle thread?22:08
elfydon't think so 22:08
elfypretty sure that nothing has been said since I last read and answered stuff on that22:09
elfythe spinoff I want libreoffice one is floundering I see22:09
knomei'm not talking about that22:11
knomeelfy, yeah, nothing has been said since you answered stuff, but i was thinking if you had something you wanted more comments on22:12
elfythen you're going to have to be specific then - I've been breathing paint solvent all day 22:12
Unit193ochosi: Not sure at all what you mean, but: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/indicator-sound/12.10.2+14.04.20140324.is.12.10.2+14.04.20140320-0ubuntu122:12
ochosigod, they have to stop with those version numbers...22:12
elfyknome: oic - I'm not sure, will look at it tomorrow and see if I can pick anything out22:12
knomeelfy, ok, thanks :)22:12
elfyI'm not pursuing exploratory anymore though - had a chat with Nick 22:13
elfywell - an e-mail chat :p22:13
knomeand what's with that?22:13
elfyas I sort of suspected - they went exploratory as they have autopilot ;)22:14
Unit193ochosi: Yes.22:14
elfyand everything gets tested regardless22:14
elfyknome: if I don't do anything else I will try and summarise that thread and the points I think we can move on22:19
elfyochosi: so that went quiet in -dekstop22:21
brainwashochosi: bug 129714423:24
ubottubug 1297144 in xfce4-settings (Ubuntu) "Invisible cursor after resume from suspend" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/129714423:24
ochosibrainwash: you keep pinging me with bug-numbers, why is that?23:25
brainwashbecause you are the one who could/should tell something about these bugs :)23:26
brainwashit is possible that light-locker gets called twice in this case?23:26
brainwashon suspend23:26
ochosiweird bug23:26
ochosicalled twice?23:27
brainwash1x via dbus and 1x via xfce4-session23:27
brainwashif both settings are enabled23:27
ochosiah, i wasn't aware23:28
brainwashlight-locker hides the cursor for the current screen23:28
brainwashjust a theory23:29
ochosihm, well the problem with the session lock setting is a problem...23:29
ochosiis this confirmed behavior?23:29
ochosi(i frankly ignored that setting like forever and never had it ticked)23:29
brainwashno, I did not test it23:30
brainwashjust trying to find an explanation for the reported bug23:30
brainwashor some hint23:30
ochositbh i dunno what xfce4-session does on that setting23:31
brainwashit calls xflock423:31
brainwashwhich calls light-locker-command23:31
ochosiif it calls xflock then it's possible that light-locker gets called twice23:31
ochosimeh, i hate that all these options and settings are spread all over the place23:32
ochosixfce4-session, xfce4-power-manager23:32
bluesabre0yeah, its a mess23:34
ochosio hai bluesabre0 23:34
bluesabre0good news though, I think I have solved the parole dvd issues23:34
bluesabre0testing some stuff now23:34
ochosivery nice23:34
ochosi(not that i ever play dvds ;))23:34
bluesabre0and cooking, so I am kind-of around23:34
ochosimeh, i got hit by the mkv "can't turn subtitles off" bug today23:35
ochosikinda annoying23:35
bluesabre0is there anything else I should be focusing more energy on (besides parole)?23:36
ochosigood good question23:37
ochosibluesabre0: does the lock on suspend thing work for you already?23:37
ochosiand did you read brainwash's comment above about the setting in xfce4-session?23:37
ochosi(i'm wondering whether we should patch it out for 14.04 in the sense that we set the checkbox to hide itself)23:37
bluesabre0ochosi: so here's the thing23:37
ochosicould be that you were hit exactly by that23:38
bluesabre0lock-on-suspend on/off does work23:38
bluesabre0but xfce4-power-manager locks your screen (xflock) when laptop lid is closed23:38
bluesabre0(its an optional item)23:38
ochosiso many options everywhere...23:38
bluesabre0but if I suspend from the power dialog, it works as expected23:38
bluesabre0btw, late-locking is fantastic23:39
ochosilock on lid-close is optional in the powerman?23:39
slickymasterknome: in the 'Key Applications' item of http://xubuntu.org/tour/, Abiword is mentioned and Gnumeric doesn't23:39
ochosioh yeah, optional23:39
ochosifound it23:39
ochosiwhat a cluttered dialog :)23:39
knomeslickymaster, we probably want to rewrite the tour page completely23:39
slickymasterwithin the same structure23:40
bluesabre0oh yeah, saw another xubuntu install at work today :]23:40
knomeslickymaster, or any23:40
knomeslickymaster, remember we can (and should) use the highlighted sections23:40
ochosibluesabre0: would be nice to resolve the mess with the three "lock on suspend" options somehow. we could theoretically keep at least two of them in sync (e.g. powerman and light-locker-settings)23:40
slickymasterliked the about page23:41
ochosibluesabre0: there's already a patch that does that for the screensaver timeouts, theoretically we could incorporate both23:41
bluesabre0we might consider doing that in the next few days23:41
ochosiso at least when you open light-locker-settings and powerman, they look the same23:42
ochosiand then hide the checkbox in xfce4-session-settings23:42
ochosiand then we'd be "good"23:42
bluesabre0which checkbox?23:42
brainwashhiding by default is a bad idea23:42
ochosithe lock on suspend checkbox23:42
bluesabre0agreed with brainwash23:43
bluesabre0works for xubuntu, nowhere else23:43
ochosidunno, it's always a duplication of xfce4-powerman23:43
ochosieven in u-studio23:43
ochosiafaik they also use both23:44
ochosiwe could also patch powerman to use the xfce4-session key to save its setting23:45
ochosithen those two would be in sync always23:45
ochosiwould "look messy" for those that use xfce4-powerman without xfce4-session, but would still work23:46
brainwashbug 110198223:46
ubottubug 1101982 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu) "inconsistent settings for lock screen between xfce4-session and xfce4-power-manager" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/110198223:46
bluesabre0oh lovely23:47
ochosiyou mean because i wasn't the first to have that messy idea? :)23:48
ochosior because the bug was known for so long?23:48
ochosiguess we can go ahead and add light-locker-settings as soon as 1.2 is uploaded23:49
brainwashnow we can add light-locker to the affects list :)23:49
ochosinot yet23:49
ochosiit hasn't been uploaded yet23:50
ochosiand it unconditionally locks on suspend atm23:50
ochosiwell yeah, you can add it now if you want23:50
ochosibut there is no visual indicator of the inconsistency atm in it23:50
brainwashinvisible mouse cursor? :P23:51
brainwashor do you mean a checkbox in the settings dialog?23:52
brainwashmy test system does not support suspend/hibernate, so I'll just call ll-command twice and see what happens23:54
ochosiyup, either way, we can ask the tester to check his settings 23:55
brainwashyes, but first I want to do see if I can verify my theory and then ask the right questions :D23:56

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