[18:10] <belkinsa> pleia2 and GunnarHj, e-mail sent regarding the meetings.
[18:10] <GunnarHj> belkinsa: Saw that. Excellent!
[18:10] <knome> belkinsa, thanks
[18:10] <belkinsa> Not a problem.
[18:11] <knome> belkinsa, can you elaborate on why you think we need a council, and what would it "guide" ?
[18:11] <GunnarHj> belkinsa: Same question here. :) What exactly do you mean by council?
[18:12] <belkinsa> Yeah, I had to leave and never finished that thought.  What I meant by that was that if we had  a council (like the Community) then maybe it would help us to get things done and maybe guide us by meetings and voting in those meetings.
[18:13] <knome> who would be in that council?
[18:13] <belkinsa> Ubuntu Members of this team, elected though.
[18:13] <belkinsa> I feel like there is no governing part of this team.
[18:14] <knome> how would anybody in that group suddenly dedicate more of their time if they were in a council?
[18:14] <pleia2> oh no more coucncils please
[18:14] <belkinsa> Good point.
[18:15] <knome> pleia2, yeah, to me it looks like pleia2 would be one member in that, and possibly even the chair.. ;)
[18:15] <pleia2> knome: you're so funny :)
[18:16] <belkinsa> and I see you a part of it too, knome.
[18:16] <knome> always!
[18:16] <knome> yeah, and i don't fancy that image...
[18:16] <GunnarHj> belkinsa: I think the need of some kind of firm leadership is greater in the sub teams - desktop, server, wiki...
[18:16] <knome> if we want to do something, that would be to try to clearly specify the different areas where work is needed
[18:16] <knome> and then try to describe those
[18:17] <knome> and as GunnarHj said, then try to get leadership to those
[18:17] <knome> it's easier to commit to leadership of just the wiki team than the whole ubuntu documentation team...
[18:17] <knome> or even a part of the wiki team; like the PopularPages project proves us
[18:17] <belkinsa> knome, that can work.  And maybe is needed.
[18:18] <GunnarHj> belkinsa: In any case we have some things to talk about on those meetings. :)
[18:18] <belkinsa> yup
[18:20] <belkinsa> Maybe, like what whoever said about a Champion at the meeting, could be the chair for that part of the meeting if the meeting could be split in three sections and the items for each are sub-sections.
[18:21] <GunnarHj> belkinsa: Something worth considering.
[18:21] <belkinsa> Bah, it's time for me to go back home.  At least you guys have food for thought from me.  ;)
[18:21] <GunnarHj> belkinsa: Just a detail: We need those Champions first. :)
[22:18] <godbyk> pleia2, GunnarHj: I'm sorry I missed today's CC meeting. I had it on my calendar, but was looking at the wrong time zone.
[22:19] <pleia2> hehe, oops
[22:19] <pleia2> it went well anyway :)
[22:21] <godbyk> pleia2: I'm reading the logs now.
[22:21] <belkinsa> Indeed, it has and it gave me more ideas for the team.
[22:22] <GunnarHj> godbyk: pleia2 summarized one of the things we talked about in the second para at https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2014-April/018834.html
[22:23] <GunnarHj> godbyk: plus regular meetings
[22:23] <belkinsa> And I think you should be the driver for the desktop docs.
[22:23] <belkinsa> Since you are very active in that part of the team.
[22:23] <godbyk> I think having regular meetings would be very helpful.
[22:23] <godbyk> The manual project has had cycles with and without regular meetings, and anecdotally, I think the cycles with regular meetings went smoother.
[22:24] <belkinsa> You know what's funny...I suggested that last year and no one wanted to do them.
[22:24] <godbyk> If nothing else, the meetings served as a reminder that there's work to do. :)
[22:24] <belkinsa> Yes, and I think that's the aim of them.
[22:24] <belkinsa> It works for Ubuntu Women and it should work here.
[22:25] <godbyk> It's a bit tricky to schedule them sometimes, given how we're spread across a bunch of time zones.
[22:25] <belkinsa> Right.
[22:25] <pleia2> belkinsa: we've come a long way in this past year, it's nice that we can now focus on processes and things like meetings :)
[22:25] <godbyk> But I think monthly meetings are a good idea. Perhaps fortnightly meetings toward the end of the cycle, even.
[22:25] <pleia2> back then it was all chaos
[22:26] <belkinsa> Ah, I see.
[22:26] <belkinsa> godbyk, sure that could work but for only desktop and server docs.
[22:27] <godbyk> belkinsa: Yeah, that's primarily what I had in mind.
[22:27] <godbyk> The wiki stuff is kind of an ongoing project. There are no hard deadlines to meet.
[22:27] <belkinsa> (would be nice)  ;)
[22:27] <GunnarHj> belkinsa: I can give you some deadlines if you like. ;-)
[22:28] <pleia2> we could create wiki-based projects for cleanup or topic improvements that have deadlines
[22:28] <pleia2> might inspire folks to participate if there are clear goals for what needs attention
[22:28] <belkinsa> Yeah, that would be awesome.
[22:28] <belkinsa> to pleia2.
[22:28] <godbyk> pleia2: Yeah.
[22:28] <GunnarHj> :(
[22:28] <godbyk> And having wiki jams would work well, too, I think.
[22:28] <godbyk> If someone organized a list of, say, frequently visited pages that needed to be cleaned up or updated. A list of things for people to work on.
[22:29] <belkinsa> I tryed for this cycle but I forgot to put down the date.
[22:29] <belkinsa> Of the Global Jam.
[22:29] <belkinsa> godbyk, that can work and with popularpages it's possible.
[22:30] <godbyk> Oh, while a few of you are here, would anyone like to help moderate the ubuntu-docs mailing list?
[22:30] <godbyk> We get a handful of messages each day that land in the moderation queue.
[22:30] <belkinsa> Sure.
[22:30] <godbyk> Most of them are spam.
[22:30] <godbyk> But a few are ones from people who just aren't subscribed to the list.
[22:30] <godbyk> (We've had a few more of these recently for FFe and UIFe requests.)
[22:30] <belkinsa> I saw.
[22:31] <godbyk> belkinsa: Thanks. I'll get you added to the moderators list then.
[22:31] <belkinsa> From the ones that were filtered through.
[22:31] <pleia2> and you can create "jams" that are unrelated to the "global jam" - the global jam is a specific event in the cycle (and comes kind of late for most of our docs aside from wiki)
[22:31] <belkinsa> Thanks.
[22:31] <pleia2> tends to be one locos participate in and stuff
[22:31] <godbyk> pleia2: (Everything comes late in the cycle with regard to docs. ;-))
[22:31] <belkinsa> Yeah, that was the plan and I think the Global Jam got me thinking the other way.
[22:31] <pleia2> godbyk: indeed!
[22:31] <GunnarHj> godbyk: How about simply rejecting messages from non-subscribed posters with an explanation and basically drop moderation?
[22:31] <belkinsa> Maybe a Global Doc Jam that is mid cycle?
[22:32] <godbyk> GunnarHj: I'm not sure what our options are. I haven't looked too closely yet.
[22:32] <godbyk> GunnarHj: But at the moment, I don't want to miss any freeze exception requests.
[22:32] <GunnarHj> godbyk: It's a Mailman list, right?
[22:32] <godbyk> GunnarHj: It's something we can consider after this cycle is finished, though.
[22:32] <godbyk> GunnarHj: Yeah.
[22:33] <GunnarHj> godbyk: If you are an admin, and not just a moderator, you have access to change it.
[22:33] <GunnarHj> godbyk: But it's a policy thing also, of course.
[22:33] <godbyk> GunnarHj: Something to consider, however, is that we don't want to make it so onerous for people to submit their freeze exception requests that they avoid doing it.
[22:34] <GunnarHj> godbyk: Maybe open at freeze time and otherwise closed?
[22:34] <pleia2> belkinsa: calling it "global" confuses it with the loco team-focused event, I'd just say it's a "Docs Jam"
[22:34] <belkinsa> Okak.
[22:34] <godbyk> GunnarHj: That's a good options, too.
[22:35] <GunnarHj> godbyk: I mean, in general it's reasonable to require that you are subscribed to a list you post to.
[22:35] <pleia2> I tend to let stuff go to the moderation queue and just deal with the spam, it's not that much work (and I admin a lot of lists)
[22:36] <pleia2> people often get confused about subscriptions and things, just give up if they get a reject notice (even one explaining how to subscribe)
[22:36] <godbyk> pleia2: And the spam I've seen so far has been quite easy to recognize, so it's not too onerous.
[22:36] <pleia2> godbyk: yeah, I have to look at a message about 5% of the time, the rest are obvious
[22:37] <GunnarHj> Ok, I'll keep my mouth shut then. I'm not volunteering, though. ;-)
[22:37] <pleia2> GunnarHj: hehe
[22:37] <pleia2> GunnarHj: you do make good points, I just don't mind making godbyk do more work ;)
[22:37] <godbyk> pleia2: Ha!
[22:38] <pleia2> and with that, back to work for me!
[22:38] <belkinsa> Just a wonder: do we have enough active members to have two drivers in each sub-team?
[22:39] <godbyk> pleia2: Thanks, pleia2.
[22:39] <godbyk> belkinsa: We might barely have enough. :)
[22:39] <GunnarHj> belkinsa: Do we have enough active members to have *one* driver in each?
[22:40] <belkinsa> Good point.  We have for server and maybe for wiki.
[22:40] <GunnarHj> server=dsmythies and wiki=belkinsa ?
[22:41] <belkinsa> Yup.
[22:41] <belkinsa> If no one has a problem with me being the wiki diver.
[22:41] <belkinsa> driver*
[22:41] <godbyk> Normally, I'd volunteer to help with the desktop docs, but I'm a bit swamped at the moment.
[22:41] <belkinsa> I see.
[22:41] <belkinsa> Hey, shaunm.  How busy are you?
[22:42] <GunnarHj> I'm kind of fed up with Ubuntu stuff at the moment, so I would not like to enter that role either, at least not right now.
[22:43] <GunnarHj> belkinsa: Btw, I think you'll be an excellent wiki driver. ;-)
[22:52] <belkinsa> Anyways, I think we should start the monthly meetings next month if possible.
[22:54] <GunnarHj> belkinsa: Sounds good to me. With those we can live with the desktop driver role being vacant, especially in the beginning of the cycle.
[22:58] <belkinsa> Oh, you think it's a good idea to add the contact info to the drivers on the Contact Us page?
[22:58] <GunnarHj> Absolutely.
[23:00] <GunnarHj> belkinsa: I saw this page accidentally the other day: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Teams
[23:00] <belkinsa> And?
[23:00] <GunnarHj> belkinsa: Most teams have a "leader" - the docs team does not.
[23:01] <belkinsa> I know.  I stated that out when I joined the team.
[23:01] <GunnarHj> belkinsa: Possibly we should add a reference there to the page where the sub group drivers are listed?
[23:01] <belkinsa> Sure.
[23:03] <GunnarHj> Going to bed now. See you all.
[23:03] <belkinsa> See ya.
[23:23] <belkinsa> Should we have a driver for the manual?
[23:24] <pleia2> we should ask them :)
[23:24] <belkinsa> Sure.
[23:25] <belkinsa> On it.
[23:27] <belkinsa> Sub-team contact info added to this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contact and added this to the teams page also.
[23:28] <pleia2> are drivers really contacts? I'd much rather have folks still use the mailing list for most stuff and drivers just nudge things along
[23:28] <belkinsa> Oh.  Good point.
[23:28] <pleia2> it's fine if the drivers want to be listed as contacts, but I hadn't made the assumption
[23:28] <belkinsa> No, I did and I shouldn't of done that
[23:29] <pleia2> no it's fine, just want to make sure we're all on the same page :)
[23:29] <belkinsa> I removed the e-mail and IRC nick.
[23:30] <belkinsa> And is this in the right place on the page?
[23:32] <pleia2> seems fine, we might want to formulate what we want a driver to do exactly
[23:32] <belkinsa> Okay.
[23:33] <pleia2> I can respond on list about it, just wrapping up some work things
[23:33] <belkinsa> Sure.
[23:37] <belkinsa> I added a bit on what one is.
[23:52] <belkinsa> pleia2, on the team page, there is a reference to the Wiki team.  Should that be removed since it's now a sub-team of this team?
[23:53] <pleia2> belkinsa: they've always been a subteam of this team
[23:53] <pleia2> I think it's still appropriate as is
[23:53] <belkinsa> Okay.
[23:54] <belkinsa> Should the other two be added to that list then?