[01:36] <Unit193> gry: He's away until the weekend.
[01:40] <gry> I'm trying to idle, so hopefully I'd get the response then
[02:02] <Logan_> hey Gryllida
[14:17] <knome> elfy, replied, bbl
[14:46] <elfy> knome: just seen - I think we're probably looking at this in exactly the same way - just neither making the point very well :p
[15:23] <knome> elfy, heh, yeah
[15:27] <elfy> knome: I added a couple of screenshots and a couple of links to the trello spec 
[15:30] <knome> noticed
[17:27] <Unit193> Will we want to s/gnome/mate/ for a few things seeded?
[17:29] <brainwash> like?
[17:32] <Unit193> We ship at least: gnome-calculator, gnome-sudoku, gnome-system-tools, system-config-printer-gnome  -system-tools has a mate version IIRC.
[17:34] <brainwash> evince?
[17:34] <amigamagic> why you don't ship with a default backup system too like duplicity + deja-dup?
[17:35] <amigamagic> I created a simple custom action in thunar, so deja-dup is well integrated in the file manager like it's on nautilus with ubuntu
[17:35] <Unit193> For one, Depends: libgnome-control-center1 isn't so nice.
[17:36] <brainwash> a lib?
[17:36] <brainwash> shouldn't cause much harm
[17:36] <Unit193> brainwash: Generally it turns into a rabbit hole with those type of packages.
[17:39] <amigamagic> with deja-dup you right click on a file in thunar and you could recover some previous version of it... It's so simple... And deja-dup + duplicity don't have some strange potentially dangerous deps, like some gnome tools 
[17:40] <brainwash> people simply install this kind of software manually if they need it
[17:40] <Unit193> Well that's sure at least nice to know.  (I don't think it should be default, but that's me.)
[17:40] <brainwash> most people don't do backups anyway
[18:01] <amigamagic> in ubuntu it's installed by default
[18:02] <amigamagic> when you install deja-dup in xubuntu it will appear nicely in the system settings panel
[18:03] <amigamagic> and when it does some backup you will see the notifications correctly. I tested it.
[18:06] <amigamagic> so I don't know why you shouldn't package it in xubuntu too. When you install it, the service is disabled by default, so it doesn't disturb the user that doesn't want to use it.
[18:07] <amigamagic> anyway, it's only a suggestion... I'm happy enough that it works and I can use it in xubuntu too... :-) 
[18:17] <brainwash> amigamagic: then create a bug report and/or write to the ml :)
[18:18] <Unit193> Well, more like a proposal to the roadmap.
[18:18] <elfy> indeed
[18:19] <elfy> and just because it's installed in Ubuntu isn't a reason to have it default
[18:19] <Unit193> ^
[18:20] <Unit193> That reasoning doesn't make sense to me, if anything it'd be a reason to avoid it.
[18:27] <amigamagic> sorry, I didn't mean that it's useful because it's in the ubuntu branch
[18:28] <Unit193> To me it more falls under "What some people might want, thus may be good to mention." but there's many different ways to (not) backup your files.
[18:29] <amigamagic> I meaned that the ubuntu team considers deja-dup stable enough to use it as their default backup system
[18:29] <amigamagic> and it's well integrable with thunar, like I said before
[18:30] <amigamagic> I tried various incremental backup systems but no one of them could permit me to save my incremental backup on a NAS
[18:30] <amigamagic> until I tried deja-dup...
[18:53] <bluesabre> yes, deja dup is good stuff
[18:53] <bluesabre> you should recommend it for inclusion in 14.10 so the team can consider it :)
[18:55] <amigamagic> maybe I should send a mail to the devel ml
[19:09] <elfy> amigamagic: it needs to have a spec done like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Utopic/Hexchat
[19:09] <elfy> if it is just on the m/l then nothing will happen
[19:10] <elfy> it'll need to be a good argument - and not I think it's good - to get me to get closer to sitting on the fence :)
[19:21] <amigamagic> elfy, so where should I put this argument?
[19:21] <amigamagic> in the link above?
[19:23] <elfy> write a new spec for it - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/ 
[19:24] <elfy> you should see the box to start a new spec
[19:27] <amigamagic> ok
[19:28] <elfy> but I have to say I can't think of any compelling reason why everyone should have it installed 
[19:34] <amigamagic> elfy, if you use your pc as an office machine, then it's likely that you have many documents. Sometimes you delete (for mistake) or edit a document... In those cases, if you don't have a previous backup of it... You are done!
[19:35] <amigamagic> With deja-dup you would right click on the file, select: "Restore previous version", select what version you want to restore and that's all! 
[19:35] <elfy> so if you are on an office machine and you don't have backups - and delete something - you should be sacked
[19:35] <Unit193> rsync is awesome.
[19:36] <amigamagic> elfy, exactly... With deja-dup the user would not be sacked. :-)
[19:36] <amigamagic> So we could save many human lifes... 
[19:36] <elfy> that's not a good enough argument for installing it my opinion - if someone needs something they can install it
[19:37] <elfy> people want libreoffice - we don't seed it
[19:37] <brainwash> didn't you say that it's disabled by default?
[19:37] <elfy> I like clementine - we don't seed it
[19:37] <elfy> just becasue you like something does not equate to us having to seed it for everyone
[19:37] <amigamagic> Unit193, deja-dup uses duplicity which uses rsync and rdiff. ;)
[19:37] <Unit193> Good for it?
[19:38] <elfy> amigamagic: what you've got to realise is that just because you like it doesn't mean we should have it as default
[19:38] <brainwash> a modern OS without an easy to use backup tool... mmh
[19:39] <elfy> without a spec it's just talk anyway 
[19:39] <brainwash> we just never realized it before
[19:40] <brainwash> amigamagic will gladly write the spec :)
[19:40] <elfy> lets see if it gets me on the fence then ;)
[19:41] <Unit193> What's the cost?
[19:41] <amigamagic> elfy, I think a modern os for desktop/workstation usage should have a default backup system, but if you don't want to include it in the package, then for what I should make the effort?
[19:41] <elfy> no idea - never used it
[19:41] <elfy> amigamagic: I'm just one vote :)
[19:42] <brainwash> but a spec is the first step
[19:42] <amigamagic> ok, so I will make it... :)
[19:42] <amigamagic> Unit193, the cost of deja-dup?
[19:42] <elfy> yes
[19:43] <Unit193> On a stock install, yeah.  For me, with all the extras I have, 8,222KB.
[19:44] <amigamagic> the deja-dup app should be something like 3MB
[19:44] <elfy> 6715kb on utopic clean 
[19:45] <amigamagic> then there is duplicity that should be something like 1MB
[19:46] <amigamagic> I think about 4MB in total for "deja-dup GUI + duplicity + librsync"
[19:46] <elfy> it's 6715kb for what it needs in a clean install
[19:46] <Unit193> elfy: Makes sense, it'd pull in libunity-protocol-private0, libunity-scopes-json-def-desktop, libunity9 and others I don't have but are stock.
[19:48] <elfy> didn't check the packages tbh 
[19:55] <amigamagic> I'm unable to create a new page in that link... It tells me that I can't modify the page...
[19:55] <amigamagic> In the new specification field I put: "Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Utopic/Deja-Dup"
[19:58] <elfy> you logged in?
[20:05] <amigamagic> yes
[20:05] <amigamagic> I will give another try...
[20:21] <amigamagic> If I'm here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap
[20:21] <amigamagic> where I have to click to go in the Specifications page?
[20:21] <amigamagic> I don't see any links...
[20:22] <elfy> there isn't one - it's here though https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications
[20:22] <amigamagic> so I have to insert it in the url
[20:22] <amigamagic> it's hidden to the public?
[20:23] <elfy> not really 
[20:23] <amigamagic> but if you don't know the link, you cannot go there... :D
[20:23] <elfy> see where it says Utopic Unicorn - there is an empty box with a New Spec button - fill in the name - hit the button
[20:24] <elfy> I didn't know it was there till the other day - I just did something sensible like go backwards in the url ;)
[20:27] <amigamagic> see you later, I have to go
[20:29] <elfy> cya amigamagic 
[21:15] <knome> one should just write the spec name in the field, not the url..
[21:16] <elfy> yea
[21:17] <Unit193> knome: Not sure you saw, but  /lastlog website  when you're "back"
[21:17] <knome> gry, not really. it's more or less on hold.
[21:20] <knome> Unit193, yeah, saw that earlier but apparenyl forgot to reply
[21:22] <knome> amigamagic, one should just write the spec name in the field, not the url
[21:28] <amigamagic> hi knome
[21:28] <amigamagic> I'm just back from dinner
[21:34] <amigamagic> I should write /Utopic/Deja-Dup in the specification field?
[21:34] <knome> no...
[21:35] <knome> the specification name.
[21:35] <amigamagic> ok
[22:00] <knome> amigamagic, were you able to sort it out?
[22:03] <amigamagic> yes, I'm writing the specs now
[22:04] <pleia2> oh hey, before I run off again - the folks at http://linuxluddites.com/ heard my xubuntu episode on the ubuntu uk podcast and asked to interview me next week
[22:05] <pleia2> not sure what that says about us luddite-wise, but they seem cool :)
[22:09] <knome> pleia2, lol ;)
[22:18] <amigamagic> knome, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Utopic/Deja-Dup
[22:19] <knome> yep. i get notifications of all pages changed under the xubuntu namespace
[22:20] <amigamagic> so you are the big brother :D
[22:21] <amigamagic> please check for mispellings, I'm not too good with english :P
[22:31] <amigamagic> *misspellings
[22:32] <knome> the content is more important than the correctness of the language
[22:32] <amigamagic> do you think I missed something or it's all right?
[22:37] <knome> you should read what the specification template had listed
[22:37] <amigamagic> I used this as reference: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Utopic/Hexchat
[22:38] <knome> the difference is that we already have an IRC client
[22:38] <knome> but not a backup software
[22:38] <knome> you are not describing much why we need ot
[22:38] <knome> *it
[22:39] <amigamagic> mmmh... It's not sufficient the fact that all the modern os integrate a backup system solution well integrated with the os itself?
[22:39] <Unit193> That's the wrong one to use for sure, it's just a stub (apart from the fact I made it, of course, that's worse.)
[22:40] <Unit193> "Because everyone else is doing it!" -- not the best reason. :/
[22:40] <amigamagic> And that it's a very important thing to do regularly backup of your important files?
[22:40] <knome> amigamagic, well if you thing that's the strong/obvious selling point, maybe you should describe what they are using and what kind of options they are providing
[22:41] <amigamagic> I mean, if you play with your pc ok, but if you do some "work" with it, than you should always backup your important files
[22:41] <knome> amigamagic, if you somehow missed the specification template, which was shown to you when you created the specification, you can read it here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Toolbox/SpecificationTemplate
[22:41] <amigamagic> ok thanks knome, I will read it
[22:42] <knome> amigamagic, i think it would be valuable to assess if simply including backup software actually makes people run backups more, or not
[22:42] <Unit193> But why should "I" use deja-dup over rsync, thunar, or anything else?
[22:42] <knome> amigamagic, or if something else would have to be done (in addition)
[22:42] <amigamagic> Unit193, thunar??
[22:42] <knome> including inkscape in the seed won't make our users artists..
[22:42] <Unit193> knome: It won't?
[22:43] <knome> Unit193, i doubt.
[22:43] <amigamagic> knome, I didn't know backup solutions in Linux so I searched a lot
[22:44] <knome> amigamagic, you might be missing my point
[22:44] <Unit193> Pretty sure.
[22:52] <amigamagic> I don't know why but the serves keeps to disconnect me... Maybe he doesn't likes me. :P
[22:53] <amigamagic> *serves = server
[22:55] <amigamagic> maybe knome is kicking me out... :D
[23:54] <amigamagic> updated wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Utopic/Deja-Dup