[00:30] <amigamagic> I didn't understand this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Utopic/DesktopLayoutProposal
[00:32] <amigamagic> to me it looks like a draft and all the things that there are there, are already in the current 14.04 release
[00:52] <gry> knome, remind me, what are you writing it off?
[01:00] <Unit193> "they either lack some technical features we need, would produce really complex/overflowing UI, or cost something.  we need translators to have their own user role, and we want to only allow them translating.   also need to only show the languages they are able to translate, to them"
[01:02] <amigamagic> Unit193, have you read my deja-dup specification? I just updated it with a simple use-case scenario.
[01:03] <Unit193> Not yet, no.  I'm waiting until they are all layed out.
[01:04] <amigamagic> what means they are all layed out?
[01:06] <Unit193> gry: Right, didn't ping you for the quote, but that's what he said last time.
[01:08] <gry> what is he writing the new site off? what cms? i understand it takes time, he needs more people who know some thing
[01:08] <Unit193> Wordpress.
[01:10] <Unit193> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/01/17/%23xubuntu-devel.html#t04:30 That's about where it started.
[01:13] <Unit193> (I'm pointing at last time, because I don't think much progress has been made, and I don't know translations, being English only.)
[01:18] <gry> i shouldve got knome to do it with gsoc, but i'm slow. it's a nice resource of development effort
[09:56] <elfy> knome: re Processes - you worried about changes if they are just wording ? not actual changes to a process 
[09:56] <elfy> eg - QA instead of testers
[09:56] <knome> not really
[09:56] <knome> and since you're the qa lead... just edit anything related to QA
[09:56] <elfy> k - just checking - I didn't think you would :)
[09:57] <elfy> yep
[09:57] <knome> as long as it's not gobbledigook
[09:57] <elfy> oh :|
[09:57] <elfy> lol
[09:57] <knome> -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO1eVQ5NSh0
[09:59] <amigamagic> hi elfy, knome
[09:59] <elfy> knome: I know that one :)
[10:00] <elfy> hi amigamagic 
[10:00] <knome> elfy, i have the special edition album + book, with my name printed on the book... :)
[10:00] <elfy> :)
[10:06] <amigamagic> elfy, I know you don't use backup systems, but by chance have you taken a look at my specification? :)
[10:06] <elfy> I did give it a quick look - but not a proper one 
[10:07] <elfy> amigamagic: you need to realise that what I might say isn't so much about me but about whether I think that something is worthwhile for all of *us*
[10:07] <amigamagic> I hope you looked at the last version, not the very first
[10:07] <elfy> I'd like bits of libreoffice - but I can understand why we don't :)
[10:08] <elfy> or at least aren't worried enough to argue for it's inclusion
[10:08] <amigamagic> but libreoffice is a completely different thing
[10:08] <ali1234> i can't understand it really
[10:08] <ali1234> i don't use libreoffice personally but abiword sucks
[10:08] <ali1234> and so does gnumeric
[10:09] <amigamagic> libreoffice is good, I always use on every machine, windows, osx, linux, etc.
[10:09] <amigamagic> but I can understand if  you don't want to include it
[10:09] <ali1234> exactly, it's the defacto standard
[10:09] <amigamagic> in the default package
[10:10] <amigamagic> but a basic system tool should always be included in a modern os distro
[10:10] <ali1234> not always
[10:10] <amigamagic> and today, a backup solution is a standard tool in a modern desktop os
[10:10] <ali1234> it depends what the distro is trying to be
[10:10] <ali1234> there is no sense in putting a backup tool in tails
[10:11] <knome> ali1234, i'm reading more of "we should drop abiword and gnumeric" than "we should install libreoffice"
[10:11] <amigamagic> of course it depends from the distro target
[10:11] <ali1234> knome: well for me personally i'd be fine with that since i don't use any of them.
[10:11] <ali1234> but if you ask what i think the majority of users would want, then i'd say libreoffice
[10:12] <amigamagic> I'm starting to think that in your vision xubuntu should not have not ever a single application apart the basic system tools
[10:12] <amigamagic> it's that its target?
[10:13] <knome> ali1234, i agree it would be saner to just drop them than seed libreoffice instead
[10:13] <elfy> I'm starting to think that you want a cross between windows and ubuntu
[10:13] <amigamagic> a super-light distro with only the minimum essential?
[10:13] <knome> amigamagic, read the strategy document: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument
[10:14] <Gryllida> libreoffice by default may be a poor idea
[10:14] <amigamagic> elfy, windows don't come with an office suite installed
[10:14] <ali1234> actually it does usually
[10:14] <ali1234> but it is a trial version
[10:15] <ali1234> you have to unlock it
[10:15] <amigamagic> ali1234, those are the pc/notebook manufacturers, not windows itself
[10:15] <ali1234> so you get the worst of both options
[10:15] <ali1234> amigamagic: irrelevant. it's on there when you buy it
[10:15] <amigamagic> ali1234, it's not always true.
[10:16] <ali1234> well you can install manually install xubuntu as well and choose exactly what packages you want
[10:16] <bluesabre> my new laptop came with no bloatware, but still had a trial microsoft office copy... but the trial software is not installed with a clean windows installation from disk
[10:16] <amigamagic> And if you bought your os license and your pc, separately, you will have to install all the software you want.
[10:16] <knome> hey bluesabre :
[10:16] <knome> :)
[10:16] <bluesabre> hey folks
[10:16] <amigamagic> bluesabre, exactly
[10:17] <amigamagic> it's that what I wanted to say
[10:17] <knome> amigamagic, he just said he had the trial anyway
[10:17] <amigamagic> "but the trial software is not installed with a clean windows installation from disk"
[10:17] <knome> yes... but if the average person goes into the store, and buys a windows pc, do you think the first thing they do is reinstall windows?
[10:17] <knome> or just start using it?
[10:18] <amigamagic> knome, so basically, you are saying that libreoffice should stay in the default installation package.
[10:18] <Gryllida> The installer should ask "Hi, you can install libreoffice, or abiword, or <whatever else the options are>".
[10:18] <knome> amigamagic, "stay"? we're not seeding libreoffice.
[10:19] <ali1234> Gryllida: unfortunately the gui installer does not work like that
[10:19] <knome> well it can...
[10:19] <ali1234> however you can do that and more with the expert mode installer
[10:19] <knome> but i doubt if it would be worth asking
[10:19] <amigamagic> knome, sorry for my english
[10:19] <knome> if we ask that, everybody would just install libreoffice, or not install anything
[10:19] <knome> well, generalized
[10:19] <ali1234> right, and there's a good reason for that
[10:20] <knome> those who want abiword or the other less known one know how to do that without an installer option as well
[10:20] <knome> seeding libreoffice, even if it wasn't installed in the live session, would bump up the ISO size up quite a bit...
[10:20] <Gryllida> The intent behind that was to make some people aware. If some advanced mode already exists and does this, it's okay.
[10:20] <amigamagic> knome, sorry for my english
[10:20] <ali1234> why is the xubuntu iso so damn big anyway?
[10:21] <amigamagic> sorry, wrong repost :P
[10:21] <Gryllida> It's not a problem, your English is good.
[10:21] <bluesabre> it's a difficult decision to make really.  We can look at the relative success of elementary who do not ship any office suite in favor of having a good-looking os with quality software
[10:21] <brainwash> quality software :)
[10:22] <knome> ali1234, http://xubuntu.org/news/xubuntu-goes-1gb-for-raring-gimp-and-gnumeric-are-back/
[10:22] <ali1234> well then the question is do you want to compete with that head-on?
[10:22] <ali1234> or offer something totally different to a different set of users?
[10:23] <brainwash> how much additional space is required for libreoffice writer + calc + gtk?
[10:23] <amigamagic> the question is: should xubuntu be a system ready for the average user from its very first start (I mean, with all the most used apps installed), or it should be only an elegant, easy to use system, polished, etc., but the generic user should install all the applications he usually uses (like libreoffice)?
[10:24] <bluesabre> and it also depends on install regions... where is xubuntu installed, do users need the option of having libreoffice on the iso because they cannot download the large libreoffice package
[10:25] <bluesabre> and do users in those remote regions need a full office suite?
[10:25] <knome> and/or would they need more langpacks on the ISO
[10:25] <brainwash> we are only talking about writer + calc
[10:25] <bluesabre> that too
[10:25] <knome> bluesabre, that pulls in base, which isn't too small.
[10:25] <knome> err, brainwash 
[10:25] <knome> brainwash, you can run tests with germinate
[10:26] <brainwash> do we have any numbers?
[10:26] <knome> no
[10:26] <bluesabre> abiword and gnumeric might not be the greatest (or the prettiest), but they do get the job done
[10:26] <amigamagic> I think abiword at least is better than the write in windows.
[10:27] <bluesabre> and our iso size might start to suck.  we don't support the standard CD anymore, but lots of people might have a 1GB flash drive around
[10:27] <bluesabre> bump the upper boundary to 2GB and that will make it less convenient for some
[10:28] <ali1234> isn't there something else we could drop?
[10:28] <ali1234> 1GB seems like a lot of xfce
[10:28] <knome> ali1234, langpacks?
[10:28] <knome> ali1234, we do have the ubuntu core.
[10:28] <knome> ali1234, if you want to trim the size, please feel free to experiment
[10:29] <elfy> bluesabre: it's not just flash size - but getting it in the first place
[10:29] <ali1234> surely translations can't be that big... they are just text, no?
[10:29] <bluesabre> one of the things we'd like to do is go python3 only, there are still a few python2 stragglers
[10:29] <ali1234> that would be cool
[10:29] <knome> "isn't there anything else to drop"
[10:29] <knome> yes, gimp...
[10:29] <bluesabre> but yeah, we ship gtk2 and gtk3, python2 and python3
[10:30] <ali1234> and porting python apps is something i can do
[10:30] <knome> but that's another thing people are clinging to
[10:30] <knome> even if it is, to say the least, silly
[10:30] <knome> i'd really love an alternative, but having went through the options several times, there isn't a good one
[10:31] <amigamagic> Sometimes I think... And if there could be two version: a lighter one, with only the minimum essential (only english lang, etc.) that fits on a cd, and the BIG ONE, with all the all the whistles and bells...
[10:31] <knome> amigamagic, you mean, like installing via the minimal ISO?
[10:31] <amigamagic> yes
[10:31] <bluesabre> but then we need twice as much iso testing
[10:31] <knome> yes
[10:31] <bluesabre> and quite often we are pretty minimal in our coverage
[10:32] <knome> maintaining two versions would be insane
[10:32] <knome> bluesabre, better than many other flavors, though
[10:32] <ali1234> one thing i always wanted was more emphasis on dev tools
[10:32] <elfy> bluesabre: and it's a massive struggle to get what we have tested enough
[10:32] <bluesabre> yes
[10:32] <ali1234> i always said manpages-dev should be in the defaults
[10:32] <knome> ali1234, well, that's another issue... is xubuntu geared towards developers or users...
[10:33]  * bluesabre considers a xubuntu-dev-tools metapackage
[10:33] <knome> huhu
[10:33]  * knome considers bluesabre getting some upload rights
[10:34]  * bluesabre needs to work on some wikipage applications
[10:34] <knome> i'm still available if you need hand with it
[10:34] <amigamagic> if you have a basic minimal iso, and you test only that, what bad could do then, adding some big but standard packages like gimp and libreoffice in the big one? Really would it be so bad?
[10:35] <elfy> amigamagic: what's your launchpad name? 
[10:35] <bluesabre> oh yeah, knome, any idea why jackson was only able to get super-minimal upload rights?
[10:35] <ali1234> knome: free software lives or dies by user-developers, so i believe all community built linux distributions should be developer first
[10:35] <amigamagic> elfy, the username I think is debianmaverick
[10:35] <bluesabre> I'd like to get rights to the entire xubuntu/xfce package sets
[10:37] <amigamagic> ali1234, I would like "geany" as the default code editor already installed... :)
[10:37] <amigamagic> it's a way lot better than gedit and it doesn't require all that gnome deps
[10:37] <ali1234> that's why we have mousepad
[10:37] <bluesabre> fedora xfce spin does geany by default, but I'd say its overkill
[10:38] <bluesabre> mousepad is fantastic
[10:38] <amigamagic> I don't remember who suggested me geany, but I thank him very much
[10:38] <knome> seriously, stop proposing silly thing
[10:38] <ali1234> text editor choice is a highly personal thing
[10:38] <knome> +s
[10:38] <knome> i'd like inkscape in the default installation
[10:38] <knome> and virtualbox
[10:38] <amigamagic> knome, me too
[10:38] <knome> and a very minimalistic panel applet
[10:38] <knome> but most of our users don't
[10:39] <amigamagic> knome, "most of our users" should have a word in all this... We are not them
[10:39] <amigamagic> how we can do that?
[10:39] <bluesabre> there's really no sane way to do it
[10:39] <ali1234> well, asking them won't work
[10:39] <bluesabre> our most vocal users are internet users, and most of them cry out for libreoffice
[10:39] <elfy> amigamagic: and getting people involved in a sensible discussion just ends up with a load of 'someone else does it' - which isn't helpul 
[10:40] <bluesabre> but that's such a small subset
[10:40] <knome> we haven't got too much negativity for our application choices, so we're doing something right
[10:40] <elfy> yep
[10:40] <knome> we're also getting generally good reviews, so we're doing something more right
[10:41] <knome> ultimately, free software is about freedom, and that includes installing what you want
[10:41] <knome> the defaults are just... sane defaults
[10:41] <amigamagic> we would need a poll like: "Do you want libreoffice as default app installed in xubuntu"?
[10:41] <ali1234> btw... i installed ubuntu-desktop^ and ubuntu-sdk and it totally messed up my whole system
[10:42] <amigamagic> but I'm sure 90% of the users would respond: YES, we want it
[10:42] <bluesabre> but polls don't reach enough of our users
[10:42] <bluesabre> and they tend to be one-sided
[10:42] <elfy> amigamagic: if we have a poll then it has to have the negative side - ie - the download is now 'this much bigger with lo'
[10:43] <amigamagic> elfy, you could put that in the poll
[10:43] <elfy> you could
[10:43] <amigamagic> like: "you want libreoffice and a big download" or "don't want libreoffice, small download"
[10:44] <amigamagic> so no one can complain
[10:44] <amigamagic> :D
[10:44] <elfy> I'm still of the opinion that we have sane defaults - if people want something else - they can install it
[10:44] <amigamagic> but what is  a "sane default"? There is some spec somewhere?
[10:44] <elfy> amigamagic: I'd complain - I don't want ALL of libreoffice - I ONLY want calc and writer
[10:44] <amigamagic> elfy, yeah, me too want only calc and writer
[10:45] <bluesabre> bbiab
[10:45] <elfy> anyway - I've had enough of this conversation now 
[10:45] <amigamagic> and I don't understand why we are talking of libreoffice, when I wanted to talk of a backup system... :lol:
[10:46] <amigamagic> but at the end, I know, it's all my fault... :D
[10:47] <amigamagic> btw I think would be a very good feature for reviewers to have a distro with a good default backup system well integrated in the system.
[10:47] <amigamagic> they would give more points to it
[10:48] <amigamagic> and a backup system is a basic small tool, it's not libreoffice or gimp...
[10:52] <knome> amigamagic, you should read the log behind the link i pasted to ali1234 as well
[10:53] <knome> we pretty much shouldn't add stuff to the ISO because "we like it" and "it is small"
[10:53] <knome> if we don't think our users need it, keep it out
[10:54] <amigamagic> so why MS, Apple and Canonical think that a default backup system should be always present in a os, and we don't?
[10:54] <knome> tell me that.
[10:55] <amigamagic> maybe for the same motivations I wrote here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Utopic/Deja-Dup
[10:56] <elfy> wiki is connecting through Sway Treacle Mines again 
[11:00] <amigamagic> I think noone read my spec after the first three rows... :(
[11:00] <knome> amigamagic, people are exhausted after the release
[11:01] <knome> elfy, not connecting at all for me :P
[11:01] <knome> bbl, guests coming in soonish ->
[11:01] <elfy> yep - I get a 500 
[11:01] <amigamagic> there is a use-case in the bottom of the specs... Maybe I should put it on top?
[11:01] <knome> (ack, same here)
[11:01] <knome> -->
[11:01] <elfy> have a good day knome 
[11:01] <knome> you to!!
[11:01] <knome> *too
[11:01] <knome> :P
[11:02] <knome> --->
[11:02] <knome> (really off now)
[11:02] <elfy> yep - kind of wandering a bit today - cya 
[11:02] <amigamagic> bye knome :)
[12:25] <amigamagic> don't you thing this should be deleted or, at least, heavily updated: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Utopic/DesktopLayoutProposal ?
[12:53] <ochosi> afternoon evryone
[12:54] <elfy> hi ochosi 
[12:55] <ochosi> hey elfy
[12:55] <ochosi> what's up?
[12:56] <elfy> watching really old sci-fi cos I want to stay in the warm and dry :)
[12:56] <ochosi> heh, sounds like fun
[13:02] <elfy> thinking about the package tracker 
[13:11] <bluesabre> that sounds not fun
[13:12] <ochosi> :}
[13:13] <elfy> bluesabre: it's better than the other job I'm doing 
[13:13] <bluesabre> :)
[13:14] <bluesabre> ochosi, any progress on the light-locker bugs?
[13:14] <ochosi> not really
[13:14] <ochosi> haven't been around too much this week
[13:14] <bluesabre> same
[13:15] <bluesabre> I'm hoping knome can go comment on the gnome-menus bug
[13:15] <bluesabre> In the meantime, I've been making some slow progress at my own menu parser
[13:15] <ochosi> holy crap :)
[13:15] <ochosi> is the other one so buggy?
[13:16] <bluesabre> It crashes, which causes alacarte and menulibre to segfault
[13:16] <bluesabre> and once it gets to that point, it stays there
[13:16] <bluesabre> but I cannot recreate it
[13:16] <ochosi> :/
[13:16] <ochosi> that sucks
[13:16] <bluesabre> but knome can :D
[13:17] <bluesabre> so I've decided to go my own route for menulibre 2.1/2.2 and eliminate the middle man
[13:17] <ochosi> sounds like "fun"
[13:18] <bluesabre> :)
[13:18] <bluesabre> the other apps don't have such critical bugs, need to do a minor release for mugshot
[13:19] <bluesabre> other than that, we can start with utopic at any time
[13:19] <ochosi> yeah, i actually have a few ideas i wanted to pitch in U
[13:20] <elfy> awesome 
[13:20] <elfy> I hope :p
[13:20] <elfy> but we'll not test it if it's too late :D
[13:20] <ochosi> bluesabre: can you reproduce the light-locker bug too?
[13:20] <ochosi> i mean the critical one
[13:20] <bluesabre> which one?
[13:20] <bluesabre> and no
[13:20] <bluesabre> light-locker works perfectly for me
[13:20] <ochosi> oh, rly? lid-close+suspend works fine?
[13:21] <bluesabre> yeah
[13:21] <bluesabre> let me check to make sure its still good
[13:21] <bluesabre> what currently happens?
[13:21] <elfy> you have to restart lightdm to get to desktop
[13:21] <ochosi> it comes back from suspend
[13:21] <ochosi> then lightdm-gtk-greeter lets you unlock
[13:22] <ochosi> and then you end up at a blank screen
[13:22] <bluesabre> k, lemme check
[13:23] <bluesabre> all is well
[13:23] <bluesabre> using nvidia-prime
[13:24] <bluesabre> and no other non-free components
[13:24] <ochosi> hm
[13:24] <bluesabre> I do need to authenticate to mount my dvd drive when it starts back
[13:24] <ochosi> did you close the lid?
[13:24] <bluesabre> so I should report that today
[13:24] <bluesabre> yeah
[13:25] <ochosi> hmm
[13:25] <bluesabre> lid close, laptop suspends, lid open, laptop wakes, login, back to where I was
[13:25] <bluesabre> and I installed from the final iso, so this is all current stuff
[13:25] <ochosi> right
[13:26] <elfy> I still have the same issue with a new clean install 
[13:26] <elfy> not nvidia though 
[13:27] <ochosi> that' [Ds"kinda" good news, so it's maybe hardware dependent
[13:27] <ochosi> i also nhave nvidia and i get the bug
[13:28] <bluesabre> might be a race condition
[13:29] <ochosi> i need to test whether it works when i kill xfce4-powermanager
[13:29] <ochosi> cause then logind should handle the lid and suspending
[13:30] <ochosi> and light-locker should listen to the lock-signal
[13:30] <ochosi> if that works, we'd have to inhibit systemd inhibition on lid-actions
[13:30] <ochosi> or: if lid-close = suspend
[13:30] <elfy> so - 2 with nvidia - 1 has bug, 1 without, 1 with intel with the bug between the 3 of us
[13:30] <ochosi> testing this now, brb
[13:31] <bluesabre> I can try with the intel card today at some point
[13:31] <bluesabre> yay gpu switching
[13:31] <elfy> :)
[13:33] <ochosi> hmm
[13:33] <ochosi> so without xfpm it doesn't lock
[13:33] <bluesabre> yup
[13:34] <brainwash> problem solved :)
[13:34] <ochosi> nah :)
[13:34] <ochosi> i need to restart light-locker by hand
[13:34] <elfy> and without xfpm but suspending from menu it does need password
[13:34] <ochosi> cause lls prevents ll from locking when xfpm and session aer there
[13:34] <brainwash> o.O
[13:34] <ochosi> elfy: but suspending from the menu doesn't produce that error anyway
[13:35] <elfy> yep
[13:35] <ochosi> testing that now, brb
[13:36] <brainwash> the vt switch is the problem
[13:36] <ochosi> nope
[13:37] <ochosi> i just tested it and it works
[13:37] <ochosi> xfpm is the problem
[13:37] <ochosi> without xfpm suspending with lid-close works like a breeze with light-locker
[13:37] <brainwash> vt switch on wake up is not the problem
[13:38] <brainwash> but xfpm calls xflock4 -> ll before suspend
[13:38] <ochosi> bluesabre: maybe your light-locker config is still "old" in the desktop file and it launches without "no-lock-on-suspend", hence it works
[13:38] <bluesabre> currently running: light-locker --lock-after-screensaver=0 --no-lock-on-suspend --no-late-locking
[13:39] <ochosi> hmright
[13:39] <ochosi> odd
[13:39] <ochosi> it should more or less consistently break was what i had thought 
[13:40] <ochosi> brainwash: yes, that's why i think ideally xfpm shouldn't handle lid-close when it's set to suspend and lock-on-suspend is on
[13:40] <bluesabre> hm
[13:40] <bluesabre> lock-on-suspend was disabled in my lls
[13:40] <ochosi> but it'll then need to tell light-locker to handle the locking..
[13:40] <bluesabre> one sec
[13:40]  * ochosi scratches head
[13:42] <bluesabre> interestingly, I cannot seem to disable lock-on-suspend
[13:43] <ochosi> i guess because light-Ãlocker handles it after all?
[13:43] <bluesabre> does xfpm not apply settings immediately?
[13:43] <bluesabre> or... does it not get the updated settings without using its gui?
[13:46] <brainwash> ochosi: did you already test if calling the lock function on wake up works fine?
[13:46] <bluesabre> hm
[13:46] <bluesabre> cannot disable lock-on-suspend at all
[13:46] <ochosi> brainwash: that's what i'm trying to do now
[13:47] <ochosi> bluesabre: killall light-locker and start it again with "--no-lock-on-suspend"
[13:47] <ochosi> but first disable it in lls
[13:47] <brainwash> https://launchpad.net/~thad-fisch/+archive/test re-uploaded xfpm with lock on wake up
[13:47] <ochosi> brainwash: oh, i actually just did the patch locally :D
[13:47] <ochosi> can i see your diff?
[13:48] <ochosi> i just shuffled one "if" in xfpm_power_sleep in power.c
[13:48] <brainwash> I've uploaded it to test it on a friend's machine
[13:48] <ochosi> did it work?
[13:48] <brainwash> not tested yet :/
[13:48] <ochosi> ok, so let me see the diff before installing :)
[13:49] <brainwash> it's just moving the if block...
[13:50] <brainwash> like you've said
[13:50] <brainwash> no magic involved
[13:51] <ochosi> to before or after the WAKING_UP signal?
[13:51] <ochosi> (i'm trying immediately before the waking-up signal now, just to see whether it'll really mess things p)
[13:52] <brainwash> http://lpaste.net/103262
[13:52] <bluesabre> anything useful here?  http://paste.ubuntu.com/7345261/
[13:53] <ochosi> brainwash: ok, that would have been my first guess too. but it could be that you have to move it after line 34
[13:54] <ochosi> bluesabre: "systemd requested session lock"
[13:54] <bluesabre> aha
[13:56] <bluesabre> too many systems at play here
[13:57] <ochosi> yeah
[13:58] <brainwash> I really like the new unity lock screen (ignoring all the mess under the hood)
[13:58] <bluesabre> brainwash: me too
[13:58] <brainwash> so light-locker without vt switch would be awesome
[13:59] <ochosi> it will be
[13:59] <bluesabre> I wonder if the systemd-ification is going to make utopic painful
[14:00] <bluesabre> good news is that all that upstart work we did means nothing for U
[14:00] <bluesabre> :\
[14:00] <ochosi> yeah, we'll see
[14:00] <ochosi> no idea what it'll involve
[14:01] <brainwash> upstart can still manage user jobs :)
[14:01] <ochosi> my guess is we should try pitti's PPAs early enough
[14:01] <bluesabre> yeah
[14:01] <bluesabre> I need to start pushing for upload rights now-ish
[14:01] <bluesabre> got some writing to do this evening
[14:01] <bluesabre> :)
[14:01] <ochosi> +1
[14:01] <ochosi> :)
[14:03] <ochosi> oook
[14:03] <ochosi> brainwash: tested that solution now...
[14:04] <ochosi> so it does work, with the drawback of showing the running session for 2secs
[14:04] <ochosi> or actually less than 2secs here
[14:04] <ochosi> depending on how quick wake-up is i guess
[14:04] <brainwash> did you remove the 2 sec sleep?
[14:04] <ochosi> we should try to cut it down to 1sec or so
[14:04] <ochosi> oddly enough i can't build the powerman version from 14.04 locally
[14:04] <ochosi> i get a builderror
[14:05] <ochosi> so i used your ppa
[14:05] <brainwash> oh
[14:05] <brainwash> yeah, showing the desktop is bad
[14:05] <ochosi> we could lower the sleeptime
[14:05] <ochosi> or remove it and hope it's there for no good reason
[14:05] <brainwash> I already removed it
[14:06] <ochosi> wanna push it through the PPA again? or just upload the deb some place
[14:06] <brainwash> see http://lpaste.net/103262
[14:06] <bluesabre> if it goes to the ppa, you'll have to wait a bit for it
[14:07] <ochosi> yeah
[14:07] <brainwash> I moved the sleep call
[14:07] <bluesabre> it's been a rough month apparently
[14:07] <bluesabre> so many starbucks and ice cream receipts
[14:07] <bluesabre> :)
[14:07] <ochosi> brainwash: not sure moving the sleep is any good
[14:07] <ochosi> either drop it or don't move it
[14:08] <ochosi> i guess though that it was there in order not to interfere with any suspend-related stuff
[14:08] <ochosi> so on wakeup it shouldn't matter (hopefully)
[14:08] <ochosi> let's try removing it
[14:08] <ochosi> so if you can quickly rebuild and upload the deb somewhere i can test it
[14:08] <brainwash> but now there is a 1 sec sleep after the lock call
[14:08] <brainwash> so it should not matter
[14:09] <ochosi> yeah, but it's silly :)
[14:09] <ochosi> anyway
[14:09] <ochosi> whatever deb you have..
[14:09] <bluesabre> (remember to remove your local-install)
[14:12] <brainwash> or let ll always perform late-locking
[14:12] <brainwash> 2-step locking I mean
[14:12] <ochosi> how will that help?
[14:12] <ochosi> 2step locking?
[14:13] <brainwash> lock the session (black screen with lock icon) and after mouse/keyboard interaction switch vt
[14:14] <brainwash> the greeter should not blank the screen in this case
[14:15] <brainwash> otherwise the user needs to move the mouse twice
[14:15] <bluesabre> yes
[14:15] <bluesabre> I want to modify that functionality
[14:15] <bluesabre> and have the greeter not turn off the display until 10-30 seconds after lock is activated
[14:16] <bluesabre> another configurable option most likely
[14:16] <bluesabre> since it makes late-locking annoying :)
[14:16] <brainwash> yes
[14:17] <ochosi> well we talked about this before
[14:17] <ochosi> late-locking should probably change that option in the greeter
[14:17] <ochosi> as it's optional, it would be possible
[14:17] <ochosi> so the functionality by itself is fine imo
[14:19] <ochosi> i think for 14.04.1, we want a simple fix for the lid-close issue and keep the rest as is
[14:19] <ochosi> problem with the greeter is that it's systemwide and lock-preferences are per user
[14:20] <ochosi> so it can never know what is right, cause it depends on which user locks (with which preferences)
[14:23] <bluesabre> yeah
[14:23] <bluesabre> I was talking about things to consider for u
[14:24] <ochosi> yup, for u we should rethink the default
[14:24] <ochosi> but the basic problem can only be resolved with light-locker 2.0
[14:32] <ochosi> really wonder why i keep getting this
[14:32] <ochosi> make[3]: *** No rule to make target `gsd-media-keys-window.c', needed by `xfce4_power_manager-gsd-media-keys-window.o'.  Stop.
[14:33] <bluesabre> hm
[14:34] <bluesabre> apt-get build-dep gnome-screensaver
[14:34] <bluesabre> oh, power manager
[14:34] <bluesabre> build-dep not working there?
[14:35] <bluesabre> also, apt-get source xfce4-power-manager
[14:36] <bluesabre> and look at debian/control and debian/rules to see how we're building it
[14:37] <ochosi> not a depends problem
[14:37] <ochosi> configure runs fine
[14:40] <bluesabre> ./autogen.sh --enable-maintainer-mode
[14:40] <bluesabre> ?
[14:42] <ochosi> rebuilding the package also failed, cause there were "unexpected changes"
[14:42] <ochosi> even though i ran debchange -i to add a new version string
[14:44] <ochosi> heh, with maintainer-mode i get a different build problem
[14:44] <ochosi> make[2]: *** No rule to make target `org.xfce.unique.xml', needed by `org.xfce.unique.h'.  Stop.
[14:44] <ochosi> this is getting too tedious
[14:44] <ochosi> bbiab
[14:46] <bluesabre> yeah, unexpected changes usually means the extracted code differs from the tarball
[14:49] <bluesabre> solutions there are: 1) quilt patch (good), 2) resave the tarball (okay for testing)
[15:06] <elfy> well 14.04 at least boots with systemd .. 
[15:10] <brainwash> hooray
[16:06] <amigamagic> someone could tell me what this is for: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Utopic/DesktopLayoutProposal ?
[16:08] <elfy> it's a spec that someone left there 
[16:08] <amigamagic> to me it looks like adraft of a spec...
[16:09] <amigamagic> and all the things that are proposed for 14.10 are already in 14.04
[17:04] <sergio-br2> hey
[17:05] <sergio-br2> someone knows a web-link that explains how to add app info in software center? like screenshots, developer website...
[17:42] <sergio-br2> hum, found it
[19:47] <bluesabre> back
[19:49] <elfy> welcome back then :)
[19:49] <ochosi> sergio-br2: btw, i'm -1 on creating our own firefox icon for now. i don't like the one linked to enough (yet)
[19:50] <sergio-br2> one that fits better with elementary? sounds good
[19:51] <sergio-br2> thunderbird is other that does not fits well
[19:51] <ochosi> yeah, but the one linked to doesn't have a really nice fox
[19:51] <bluesabre> agreed, firefox is not bad, thunderbird does not fit
[19:51] <ochosi> (in the issue on github)
[19:52] <Unit193> Link?
[19:52] <bluesabre> Ganondorf?
[19:53] <bluesabre> (I'd like a link too)
[19:53] <ochosi> https://github.com/shimmerproject/elementary-xfce/issues/59
[19:54] <sergio-br2> ahh, it's a issue
[19:54] <sergio-br2> cool
[19:54] <ochosi> yup, that's what i said before :p
[19:54] <Unit193> Ah, yeah.  Like stock better.
[19:55] <ochosi> well a new ff icon isn't un-doable, but i think it'd have to be a different/nicer one
[19:55] <sergio-br2> (and someone is using our icon theme :)  )
[19:55] <ochosi> and i still have sooo many LO icons to do...
[19:55] <ochosi> well sure thing ppl are using it
[19:56] <sergio-br2> ihmo, this fox is too flat (in the top)
[19:56] <ochosi> yup
[19:56] <ochosi> and the gradient is a bit too simplistic
[19:56] <bluesabre> this ones not so bad http://seahorsepip.deviantart.com/art/Firefox-elementary-icon-183301125
[19:56] <sergio-br2> yeah, much better
[19:56] <bluesabre> still more tango than elementary though
[19:57] <ochosi> bluesabre: reviewed the latest lightdm-gtk-greeter MR yet?
[19:57] <bluesabre> nope
[19:57] <ochosi> yeah, the colors are too tango-esque
[19:57] <ochosi> they'd have to be changed a bit i guess
[19:57] <bluesabre> though I personally love tango
[19:58] <ochosi> yeah, but it's a different palette
[19:58] <bluesabre> right
[19:59] <ochosi> anyway, i also agree we could ship chrome/ium icons
[19:59] <ochosi> just need ppl to work on it
[19:59] <ochosi> sergio-br2: btw, are you working on a branch atm or are you idling?
[20:00] <sergio-br2> nope
[20:00] <sergio-br2> i'm working in other project :)
[20:00] <sergio-br2> vba-m
[20:01] <bluesabre> ooh
[20:01] <ochosi> right, well if you feel like scaling e.g. the LO appicons to the remaining (larger) sizes... ;)
[20:01] <sergio-br2> ok
[20:02] <sergio-br2> i still need to scaling webapps
[20:02] <ochosi> sure, but the webapps are a potentially unfinishable project
[20:02] <ochosi> there are so many...
[20:02] <sergio-br2> ok, so when i'm back, i will see LO
[20:02] <ochosi> cool, ty
[20:03] <ochosi> i'll try to get on with a few more mime-sizes tomorrow
[20:03] <ochosi> bluesabre: the MR sounded like we want it in 14.04 along with the focus fix
[20:03] <bluesabre> right, I'll try to get to it today
[20:03] <bluesabre> relaxing a bit before I help my wife with her next photo shoot in an hour
[20:26] <ochosi> wow, many photoshoots on the weekends lately, eh?
[20:28] <ochosi> night everyone
[20:29] <bluesabre> yeah, my wife has actually taken her business to fulltime as of this week
[20:29] <bluesabre> going to part-time at a local restaurant
[20:30] <elfy> sounds good then :)
[21:02] <amigamagic> someone knows what means "@selected_bg_color" in the theme file xfce-panel.rc for greybird? I mean, what all those "@" are for? I would like to change the colours in the theme... I just have to change those "@something" with "#112233" ?
[21:05] <brainwash> amigamagic: see gtkrc, first few lines
[21:06] <amigamagic> ah perfect, brainwash thanks! :)