[03:26] <Steve[cloud]_> evening folks
[03:26] <Aki-Thinkpad> Steve[cloud]_, evening
[03:27] <Steve[cloud]> anyone else run into the situation where after initial flash a N10 just seems to reload stock android?
[03:27] <Aki-Thinkpad> Not I" said the fox
[03:27] <Steve[cloud]> im stuck in a Nexus boot animation loop >.<
[03:27] <Aki-Thinkpad> :O
[03:28] <Steve[cloud]> lets try this again...
[03:37] <Steve[cloud]> ok, did it again
[03:37] <Steve[cloud]> thats really annoying.
[03:52] <Hashcode> ping rsalveti
[06:57] <dholbach> good morning
[07:00] <bact> morning
[08:22] <Chipaca> I'm getting http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/7364796/ when trying to run a windowless go-qml app; any ideas?
[08:36] <mhr3> Chipaca, if you want windowless, don't instantiate QGuiApplication
[08:36] <lotuspsychje> how will updates install on touch after ubuntu one shutsdown?
[08:36] <Chipaca> I'm not, not directly at least
[08:37] <Chipaca> lotuspsychje: ubuntu one file sync is not involved in updates
[08:37] <lotuspsychje> Chipaca: ah so its seperated, and will keep existing accounts?
[08:37] <ogra_> accounts and the cloud db wont be shut down
[08:37] <lotuspsychje> nice
[08:38] <ogra_> you can still store config settings of apps there and manage accounts
[08:38] <Chipaca> just file sync and dependent services like music shop & streaming, photo albums, 3d printing, etc
[08:38] <lotuspsychje> ok great tnx
[08:41] <mhr3> Chipaca, looks like go-qml does only gui applications, so... :/
[08:41] <lotuspsychje> is there a way to receive updates after enabling read-write mode (would like to install terminal packages)
[08:41] <Chipaca> lotuspsychje: you can apt-get update and upgrade?
[08:41] <Chipaca> mhr3: oh, craptastic :-(
[08:41] <Chipaca> mhr3: thanks for the info tho :)
[08:42] <lotuspsychje> Chipaca: that will manually update the channel=devel then?
[08:42] <Chipaca> lotuspsychje: nope
[08:42] <mhr3> Chipaca, i just quickly grepped go-qml, perhaps ping gustavo to double check ;)
[08:42] <Chipaca> will do
[08:43] <lotuspsychje> Chipaca: so its not recommended to unlock read-write then?
[08:43] <mhr3> but fwiw it's go-qml, not go-qt :)
[08:43] <Chipaca> lotuspsychje: so, you're on the stable channel, and want to get updates from devel?
[08:43] <Chipaca> lotuspsychje: is that it?
[08:43] <lotuspsychje> Chipaca: would like all updates, but also install terminal packages: nmap irssi etc
[08:44] <Chipaca> lotuspsychje: but what channel is the phone on?
[08:44] <lotuspsychje> my nexus7 run channel=devel
[08:45] <lotuspsychje> the site explains after enable read-write mode you can get updates anymore right?
[08:46] <Chipaca> lotuspsychje: you don't get image-based updates any more
[08:46] <Chipaca> lotuspsychje: but you can upgrade the distribution using apt-get if you wish
[08:47] <Chipaca> lotuspsychje: and move it to utopic by editing /etc/apt/sources.list
[08:47] <Chipaca> lotuspsychje: etc
[08:47] <Chipaca> lotuspsychje: it's still ubuntu :)
[08:47] <lotuspsychje> okay nice
[08:48] <Chipaca> lotuspsychje: you should also be able to reflash it without losing user data, but I personally haven't tried that so I don't know if it works (nor how to do it in detail)
[08:48] <lotuspsychje> Chipaca: i unlocked it last install, but i rather wanna receive the devel updates so
[08:49] <lotuspsychje> think ill leave it locked then
[08:50] <lotuspsychje> Chipaca: maybe an unlock switch would be handy in system settings
[08:50] <Chipaca> lotuspsychje: you mean to make it *easy* for users to break their system?
[08:51] <Chipaca> lotuspsychje: I can't fathom how you think that's a good idea :)
[08:51] <lotuspsychje> Chipaca: lol, or just install terminal applications when they need to
[08:52] <lotuspsychje> Chipaca: or is it a security flaw to enable read-write?
[08:52] <Chipaca> lotuspsychje: it is not
[08:56] <Chipaca> lotuspsychje: question for you: how do you install terminal applications?
[08:57] <lotuspsychje> Chipaca: sudo apt-get install nmap
[08:58] <Chipaca> lotuspsychje: how?
[08:58] <lotuspsychje> Chipaca: from terminal (after unlocking the readw-write
[08:58] <Chipaca> lotuspsychje: from the phone terminal app?
[08:58] <lotuspsychje> Chipaca: from my nexus7 terminal app yes
[08:58] <Chipaca> heh. ok.
[08:59] <lotuspsychje> it worked nicely
[08:59] <Chipaca> lotuspsychje: do you have some kind of bluetooth keyboard, or is this typing on the glass?
[08:59] <lotuspsychje> irrsi also works, but cant switch to other channels
[08:59] <lotuspsychje> typing in terminal keyboard yes
[09:00] <Chipaca> ok, fair enough
[09:00] <lotuspsychje> im testing all kinds of classic terminal apps on ubuntu touch
[09:00] <lotuspsychje> links2 doesnt react my touch :p
[09:00] <ogra_> dont forget that apt upgrades are not supported and will break at some point
[09:00] <Chipaca> ogra_: oh, they will?
[09:00] <ogra_> yes
[09:00] <Chipaca> ogra_: darn
[09:00] <ogra_> by design
[09:00] <lotuspsychje> ah
[09:01] <lotuspsychje> so its designed for a touch app only
[09:01] <ogra_> well, its a dpkg limitation in fact
[09:01] <Chipaca> ogra_: just upgrades, or installing stuff too?
[09:01] <Chipaca> ogra_: tell me more :)
[09:02] <ogra_> the image is spanning across multiple partitions ... whern replacing files dpkg ises hard links ... hard links do not work across partition boundaries
[09:02] <ogra_> s/ises/uses/
[09:02] <lotuspsychje> does it use trusty latest to install packages?
[09:02] <ogra_> beyond that there are only 500MB free space on the readonly image
[09:03] <ogra_> so you will run out of space at some point
[09:03] <lotuspsychje> ah i see
[09:03] <lotuspsychje> im really trying something its not designed for
[09:03] <lotuspsychje> i should wait for an irssi app
[09:03] <ogra_> well, it is designed for apt-get install ... but not for apt-get upgrade :)
[09:04] <Chipaca> ogra_: but I've used dpkg in a multiple partition scenario, with /usr/ readonly, without issues, on servers, for years
[09:04] <ogra_> (and you could indeed pull the image off the phone, make it bigger and copy it back for the space issue)
[09:05] <ogra_> Chipaca, try installing a package that really makes use of that ... lxc-android-config is a good example here
[09:05] <Chipaca> or do you mean because of the layered thing
[09:05] <ogra_> dpkg will fail ...
[09:05] <lotuspsychje> ogra_: but one could install a package, then purge and reinstall for a newer one (instead of update)
[09:05] <Chipaca> ogra_: I'll take your word for it :)
[09:05] <ogra_> lotuspsychje, yes, but thats not what apt-get upgrade/dist-upgrade does
[09:06] <ogra_> i guess if you handle such packages separately it would technically work, but you get into dependency hell then
[09:06] <lotuspsychje> i understand
[09:06] <ogra_> since if you remove something its will try to remove the depending packages too indeed
[09:06] <lotuspsychje> its a new way to use the terminal on touch
[09:06] <ogra_> there are plans for getting the reradonly setup into the desktop too for convergence
[09:07] <lotuspsychje> unless ubuntu desktop is installed right
[09:07] <ogra_> for that there will have to be a solution for dpkg
[09:07] <ogra_> how do you mean ?
[09:07] <ogra_> (unless ubuntu desktop is installed ?)
[09:07] <lotuspsychje> well lets say i can install trusty desktop on nexus7
[09:07] <lotuspsychje> instead of touch
[09:07] <lotuspsychje> i could use it like normal
[09:08] <ogra_> no, i was talking about the PC installation above
[09:08] <lotuspsychje> ok
[09:08] <ogra_> you can indeed install ubuntu-desktop on a N7 ... but there are no Xorg drivers ...
[09:08] <ogra_> so that wouldnt help you much
[09:09] <lotuspsychje> ogra_: yeah i also see video's you need keyboard or mouse for some stuff
[09:09] <ogra_> (until the desktop is unity8 and uses Mir)
[09:09] <lotuspsychje> ogra_: ok so ill stick to ubuntu touch=devel with updates on and read-write off
[09:10] <lotuspsychje> is it hard to create an ubuntu app?
[09:10] <ogra_> the readwrite mode is mainly for actually developing the system iself
[09:10] <ogra_> depends what you want it to do :)
[09:10] <lotuspsychje> well im not really a developer so :p
[09:11] <lotuspsychje> lets say i want to create an nmap app for ubuntu out of the .deb file
[09:11] <lotuspsychje> are there easy app creators or something out there?
[09:12] <ogra_> you would turn it into a click package ... probably have to rebuild nmap statically linked, if you want UI you would have to teach nmap to either cooperate with QML or to spit out html
[09:13] <lotuspsychje> ogra_: got an url on must have software to create apps?
[09:13] <ogra_> creating a gui app is easy with qtcrator ...
[09:13] <ogra_> *creator
[09:13] <lotuspsychje> lemme look that up tnx
[09:13] <ogra_> developer.ubuntu.com
[09:13] <ogra_> that should be your starting point
[09:14] <ogra_> the gui part isnt much harder than creating a webpage ... getting proper backend integration is the hard part
[09:14] <lotuspsychje> might be over my head then :p
[09:15] <ogra_> (usually requires that there is a QML/Qt extension for it  ... i.e. if you wanted to write an email client you can easily click together a UI, but you would have to teach Qt/QML about IMAP or POP)
[09:15] <lotuspsychje> i see
[09:15] <lotuspsychje> alot of tools show up on apt-cache search qtcreator
[09:15] <ogra_> if you use existing Qt/QML backends its super easy
[09:16] <ogra_> but adding custom ones isnt
[09:16] <ogra_> the ubuntu ui toolkit will at one day offer most of the backends you can imagine thogh
[09:16] <lotuspsychje> and is there a package on existing backend projects?
[09:16] <lotuspsychje> aha
[09:16] <ogra_> look at developer.ubuntu.com ... it should give you all info you need
[09:16] <lotuspsychje> bright future
[09:16] <lotuspsychje> ok tnx
[10:02] <davmor2> Morning all
[10:04] <bact> morning
[10:07] <mandel> bzoltan, morning!  did you have the time to take a look at the udm so that it can be added as part of the sdk?
[10:09] <bzoltan> mandel: not really... but adding it to the SDK is really just a single line change in the Touch seeds.. by ogra_ or somebody else who can do that.
[10:10] <mandel> ogra_, are you too busy to do that ^
[10:10] <mandel> ogra_, please :) :)
[10:10] <ogra_> hmm
[10:11] <ogra_> how do we get it onto the image today ? i dont even see it in the touch seed
[10:11] <ogra_> ogra@styx:~/Devel/seeds/ubuntu-touch.utopic$ grep download *
[10:11] <ogra_> ogra@styx:~/Devel/seeds/ubuntu-touch.utopic$
[10:12] <ogra_> aha, as a dep of system-image-common
[10:13] <ogra_> mandel, can you do an MP ... there is a  seed change currently in the media-hub landing and i dont want to clash (sinde seed/metapackage upgrade is completely manual)
[10:13] <ogra_> mandel, if you want it in the sdk, you want to add it to the sdk-libs file in the seeds
[10:14] <ogra_> s/sinde/since/
[10:15] <mandel> ogra_, sure, what project is that?
[10:15] <ogra_> mandel, lp:~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu-touch.utopic/
[10:16] <ogra_> dbarth, i have bug 1314410 for you
[10:16] <ogra_> hmm
[10:16] <ogra_> no bot
[10:16] <ogra_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/webbrowser-app/+bug/1314410
[10:16] <mandel> Elleo, I have requested a silo for you udm branch, will be adding an MP following what _ogra said
[10:16] <dbarth> ogra_: listening
[10:17] <dbarth> no bot, weird ;)
[10:17] <dbarth> ogra_: ah, this one is fixed already
[10:17] <ogra_> dbarth, refresh doesnt work in the webapp-container ... specifically the refresh button in the error page
[10:17] <dbarth> ogra_: let me find you the silo/banch
[10:17] <ogra_> ah, cool
[10:17] <ogra_> feel free to just close it then
[10:18] <Elleo> mandel: cool, presumably I should merge the latest changes from trunk into that branch first
[10:18] <mandel> Elleo, no need, in the review I made sure that there are no conflicts :)
[10:18] <dbarth> ogra_: that was https://code.launchpad.net/~abreu-alexandre/webbrowser-app/fix-network-dialog-reload/+merge/216379
[10:18] <Elleo> mandel: ah, cool
[10:18] <Elleo> one less thing to do :)
[10:18] <dbarth> ogra_: which is marked landed in ci train
[10:19] <mandel> Elleo, and you only made changes in the qml and those files were just moved
[10:19] <Elleo> yeah
[10:19] <dbarth> ogra_: maybe not in the image yet, though that's a been a while i thought
[10:20] <ogra_> yeah, no worries
[10:20] <ogra_> i think it landed as SRU ... cjwatson just copied a bunch of things over to utopic
[10:20] <ogra_> i guess it is among them
[10:20] <dbarth> ogra_: i'm worried though, as the original bug should have been tagged fix-released once landed
[10:21] <ogra_>   [ Olivier Tilloy ]
[10:21] <ogra_>   * Handle new view requests in the browser. (LP: #1307735)
[10:21] <ogra_> webbrowser-app 0.23+14.04.20140416-0ubuntu1
[10:21] <ogra_> i assume thats it ?
[10:21] <dbarth> nope
[10:21] <ogra_> oh
[10:21] <dbarth> that was #1309138
[10:22] <dbarth> and davmor2 verified it btw
[10:22] <dbarth> oh, it's been sru'ed indeed; it was an sru in the first place
[10:22] <dbarth> ogra_: so you're right, that should be in the next image build
[10:22] <dbarth> i'll keep an eye on it when testing the next update
[10:24] <cjwatson> Yeah, I only just copied those to utopic
[10:25] <mandel> ogra_, one question, the sdk-libs-dev, what is is used for? do I need to add the libs that are required to develop the qml plugin?
[10:25] <ogra_> cjwatson, hmm, it looks like this sepcific one didnt get into -updates yet, i dont see 0.23+14.04.20140422-0ubuntu1 of webbrowser-app
[10:25] <ogra_> *specific
[10:26] <ogra_> mandel, -dev is used on the desktop when developing iirc you want just sdk-libs (-dev doesnt end up on the image)
[10:27] <mandel> ogra_, great, so I just add qtdeclarative5-ubuntu-download-manager0.1 to sdk-libs and I'm sorted :)
[10:27] <ogra_> yeah
[10:28] <mandel> ogra_, I had to stop my self and sort the in alphabetical order hehe
[10:28] <ogra_> sdk-libs will be re-worked soon ... all the plugins are renamed
[10:29] <ogra_> i'll make sure they are alphabetically sorted then so it doesnt itch you so much next time ;)
[10:29] <beniwtv> Hi alll... Does anyone know if Ubuntu phone can be configured to accept auto-reconnects from the car bluetooth stereo? Right now, I have to manually connect each time.
[10:30]  * ogra_ wasnt aware you can connect to car stereo at all ... thats awesome info 
[10:30] <ogra_> beniwtv, file a bug (bluetooth-touch is the package name i think)
[10:30] <beniwtv> ogra_: Yep, it does work :)
[10:32] <cjwatson> ogra_: yeah, I only copied the one from -updates - I don't normally copy from stable-proposed to devel-proposed in case they fail verification
[10:32] <ogra_> right, thought so ...
[10:32] <ogra_> dbarth, so the SRU team needs to let it in first ...
[10:32] <ogra_> (seems easy since it is verification-done)
[10:34] <mandel> ogra_, here you go => https://code.launchpad.net/~mandel/ubuntu-seeds/udm-in-sdk.utopic/+merge/217737
[10:35] <ogra_> thanks !
[10:42] <mandel> Elleo, we have silo 20 for your udm branch, last night it took around 1 hour and a half to build so is a matter of waiting
[10:42] <mandel> ogra_, we do expect media-hub to land, right?
[10:42] <mandel> ogra_, I just want the browser to be unblocked by the udm qml landing :)
[10:45] <Elleo> mandel: great, thanks :)
[11:15] <ogra_> mandel, yes, about as long as we expected udm to land :)
[11:16] <mandel> ogra_, oh lord..
[11:17] <ogra_> but i guess it lands today
[11:45] <mandel> ogra_, \o/ (for today landing of content-hub)
[11:45] <ogra_> media ?
[11:45] <ogra_> :)
[11:45] <mandel> Elleo, testing https://launchpad.net/~ci-train-ppa-service/+archive/landing-020/ if everything goes ok we will be one step closer
[11:46] <mandel> ogra_, true hahaha bloody context switch is not only hard for threads :P
[11:46] <ogra_> :)
[11:46] <Elleo> mandel: great :)
[11:48]  * rickspencer3 can't wait to update today
[11:49] <ogra_> rickspencer3, you arent on utopic yet ?
[11:50] <rickspencer3> ogra_, today is the day :)
[11:50] <rickspencer3> going to do my phone and my laptop
[11:50] <ogra_> note bug 1307981 though ...
[11:50]  * rickspencer3 braces
[11:50] <ogra_> hmpf
[11:50] <ogra_> I WANT THE BUGBOT BACK !!!
[11:50] <rickspencer3> bug #1397981
[11:50] <ogra_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/1307981
[11:50]  * ogra_ plays bugbot
[11:50] <rickspencer3> :,(
[11:51] <rickspencer3> ogra_, that looks annoyng
[11:51] <davmor2> ogra_: I break stuff you fix it those were the rules,  See this is what happens when you break the rules ;)
[11:51] <ogra_> popey, do you know who runs the bugbots ? is that alan bell ?
[11:51] <rickspencer3> so, basically, I need to have either wifi OR 3g on, but not both?
[11:52] <ogra_> rickspencer3, it seems to manifest differently for everyone who sees it
[11:52] <rickspencer3> like a strange religious experience
[11:52] <rickspencer3> maybe it's not real?
[11:52] <rickspencer3> j/k
[11:52] <ogra_> for me it didnt show up at all today ... i had it three times yesterday and just dis/enableing wifi fixes it here
[11:52] <rickspencer3> ok, I will wait until it's fixed
[11:52] <ogra_> for pat it seems to be far worse though
[11:53] <ogra_> davmore is somewhere between our two experiences apparently
[11:53] <ogra_> sadly it shows so random that we didnt even notice it before promoting
[11:54] <popey> ogra_: depends which ones, wassup?
[11:54] <davmor2> popey: no bugbot in the house
[11:54] <ogra_> popey, seems all bug bots in all channels i am in are dead
[11:54] <popey> ok
[11:54]  * popey goes to ask
[11:56] <amrit_> hey
[11:56] <ogra_> seems the bugbot in #ubuntu-arm is still alive though
[11:57] <ogra_> in #ubuntu-ci-eng it is dead
[11:57] <amrit_> ubuntu will support of xperia talbet or not
[11:57] <popey> k, will ask ogra_
[11:58] <ogra_> amrit_, not officially, but there might be  a community maintained port on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Devices
[11:59] <Elleo> popey: am I right in thinking there isn't anything that can view PDFs yet? A quick search in the store didn't show up anything and I'm guessing from the wiki that the Document Viewer app hasn't had much done towards it yet?
[12:01] <popey> correct Elleo however a community guy - frecel_ has ported the ffos js pdf viewer, but is holding back until the html5 sdk is in parity with the qml sdk i believe (content hub for example)
[12:01] <Elleo> popey: ah, heh; that's almost exactly what I was thinking of doing :P
[12:02] <popey> hah
[12:02] <Elleo> iirc the html5 stuff for content-hub should have been updated a little while back now
[12:02] <ogra_> we have the qt bindings for poppler in the image
[12:02] <ogra_> someone just needs to make use of them
[12:03] <Elleo> ogra_: oh, interesting
[12:04] <ogra_> (for personal use i have a tool that turne a pdf into a html and builds a click package with included html viewer out of it ... in case you just want to scratch your own itch)
[12:04] <ogra_> s/turne/turns/
[12:04] <popey> Elleo: the docviewer has seen no love for some time.
[12:05] <jussi> !test
[12:05] <ogra_> bug #12345
[12:05] <popey> \o/
[12:05] <popey> thanks jussi
[12:05] <ogra_> thanks !!
[12:05] <popey> ogra_ was getting lonely without it
[12:05] <jussi> awww
[12:05] <Elleo> ogra_: I was actually mostly just looking for some little project to get me familiar with the HTML5 bindings and thought something wrapping pdf.js could be handy
[12:05] <ogra_> jussi, it is dead in #ubuntu-ci-eng too (not sure we use the same bot there though)
[12:06] <jussi> so does that mean ogra_ like me again? :D
[12:06] <ogra_> Elleo, ah
[12:06] <lotuspsychje> the best pdf viewer i tested for androis was foxit reader
[12:06] <ogra_> jussi, did i ever stop ?!?
[12:06] <jussi> ogra_: I dunno, havent talked to you for ages :D
[12:06] <ogra_> jussi, you are my favorite jussi, there is no other jussi like you :)
[12:07] <jussi> ogra_: :D
[12:07] <Elleo> maybe I'll do something similar with webodf
[12:07] <davmor2> jussi: ogra_ lies he said the very same thing to the other jussi ;)
[12:07] <jussi> right, back to work
[12:07] <Elleo> popey: ^ I assume that hasn't been done as well?
[12:08] <popey> not heard of that
[12:09] <Elleo> okay, cool; it'd be interesting to see how easy it'd be to get an ODF editing interface in such a small space
[12:09] <ogra_> well, viewing capability would be great at least
[12:10] <mandel> Elleo, testing done, everything looks ok
[12:10] <ogra_> but i guess that should become a docviewer feature as well in the end
[12:10] <Elleo> ogra_: yeah, but since webodf has full editing capabilities it'd be nice to make use of them :)
[12:10] <Elleo> mandel: great
[12:12] <Elleo> just tried one of the demos in webcontainer-app and it's pretty usable straight away
[12:12] <Elleo> e.g.  webapp-container http://www.webodf.org/demo/ci/webodf-0.4.2-2009-gb122af0/editor/localeditor.html --desktop_file_hint=/usr/share/applications/webbrowser-app.desktop
[12:13] <ogra_> just package it then :)
[12:13] <Elleo> ogra_: it'll need some changes to be usable locally for opening files, integrating with content-hub, etc.
[12:14] <Elleo> unless people just want to edit the demo document on the web :P
[12:14] <Elleo> but I'll leave that until this evening when I'm done with *proper* work ;)
[12:14] <ogra_> heh
[12:14] <Elleo> hmm, some keyboard buggyness though
[12:15] <ogra_> wow
[12:15] <ogra_> even the open button works
[12:15] <Elleo> ooh, yeah
[12:15] <Elleo> it's doing a file upload
[12:15] <Elleo> so it's using the content-hub file upload stuff in the browser
[12:15] <ogra_> (gives me content-hub ... but sadly only gallery and addressbook)
[12:17] <ogra_> hmm, yeah, the kbd requires that you scroll around a little, then it stays visible
[12:18] <Elleo> input seems to break somewhat if you have autocorrect on too
[12:18] <ogra_> i have turned all that stuff off here ... it gets in my way a lot
[12:18] <Elleo> ogra_: yeah, I normally have it off; but one of my main tasks at the moment is fixing lots of that stuff :P
[12:19] <ogra_> oh my ... you poor guy
[12:19] <Elleo> ogra_: here's a before and after on some new spell-checking fixes I'm just finishing up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zGcY3qLYdM&feature=youtu.be
[12:20]  * ogra_ blames popey for not shariing that on G+
[12:25] <asac> how is the media-hub-weather today :)?
[12:25] <ogra_> asac, nobody of the landers got up yet :P
[12:26] <ogra_> what i saw from the night it seems all good and ready
[12:26] <ogra_> (there was one remaining change to the upstart job that landed, i guess its good to go once jim gets up=
[12:26] <ogra_> )
[12:26] <asac> so all green, just waiting for someone to be around while this goes in. good.
[12:26] <asac> ogra_: lander == rsalveti?
[12:27] <ogra_> yeah, and jhodapp|afk indeed
[12:28] <ogra_> grr
[12:28]  * ogra_ didnt have bug 1307981 all day ... now it has bitten me again 
[12:31] <Chipaca> is the twitter accounts plugin supposed to work with twitter 2fa?
[12:33] <Chipaca> ah, second time it worked
[13:47] <mterry> boiko, poke about https://code.launchpad.net/~mterry/telephony-service/start-on/+merge/216492
[13:49] <boiko> mterry: oh, sorry, we have been focused on other stuff, I ended up not noticing the MR, I will review that soon
[13:49] <mterry> boiko, thanks!
[14:06] <mardy> bfiller: hi! Any news about the landing of the app-access2 branch of u-s-s-o-a? Do you still plan it?
[14:10] <bfiller> mardy: haven't had time to get back to that, might be best for dbarth to do it now that we have more time
[14:16] <mardy> dbarth: will you take care of that?
[14:22] <dbarth> mardy: yup, can do
[14:22] <dbarth> mardy: that alone though, ie not the rest of the integration,which is still gated on trusted sessions
[14:24] <mardy> dbarth: yes, but there was another branch or two... let me find them
[14:25] <mardy> dbarth: https://code.launchpad.net/~mardy/libaccounts-qt/packaging/+merge/209903 and https://code.launchpad.net/~mardy/friends-app/app-access2
[14:33] <lool> cjwatson: would you mind double-checking http://paste.ubuntu.com/7366649/ ?  no 14.10 frameworks, just the final 14.04 ones; I dont think we will build any more trusty images, but it's probably needed that I SRU this afterwards for the click chroot case
[14:52] <pmcgowan> Saviq, are there any known issues with u-s-c disappearing?
[14:52] <Saviq> pmcgowan, not that I know of, no
[14:52] <Saviq> mterry, ↑?
[14:53] <pmcgowan> I just filed a bug about it not respawning, but not sure why it died to beging with
[14:53] <mterry> pmcgowan, it doesn't do all that much.  Mostly just a wrapper around libmirserver.  But software has bugs I suppose
[14:53] <ogra_> why do you always get the weird bugs ?
[14:54] <pmcgowan> I know right
[14:54] <pmcgowan> last three days in a row, system looked dead but wasnt
[14:55] <pmcgowan> mterry, i can file a second bug on it dying but I dont have any info for it, no crash file etc
[14:55] <pmcgowan> mterry, unless there is a log somewhere to grab
[14:55] <cjwatson> lool: Mostly LGTM, but aren't you missing ubuntu-sdk-14.04-html?  There's an ubuntu-sdk-14.04-html-dev1
[14:56] <mterry> pmcgowan, /var/log/lightdm/unity-system-compositor.log would have some info, but it gets overwritten next boot
[14:56] <mterry> pmcgowan, next time!
[14:56] <cjwatson> lool: We're going to need to change "click chroot" too
[14:56] <pmcgowan> mterry, ok
[14:56] <mhall119> fginther Mirv Kaleo what do we need to do in order to get the UITK API docs updated everytime you have a new release?  I have the script to import them into the server, I just need somebody to make it run agianst the docs every team
[14:57] <pmcgowan> mterry, there are .old files in there, looks like it backs up the last one
[14:59] <pmcgowan> mterry, the old log and new are the same with one exception, old has the line "Failed to read header"
[15:01] <mterry> pmcgowan, huh...  that means it couldn't parse/handle the control messages lightdm was sending it
[15:02] <mandel> pmcgowan, Elleo all of the stuff that needed to land from udm for the downloads has landed, we have a branch from the seed and once that is there we should be ok in the side of the touch image
[15:02] <fginther> mhall119, It's mainly the time needed to set it up (and maybe adding a firewall rule depending on where it needs to run). You already have the script to do the updates correct?
[15:02] <mandel> pmcgowan, Elleo we are waiting for media-hub to land before because it has changes in the seeds too
[15:03] <Elleo> mandel: excellent, thanks :)
[15:03] <mhall119> fginther: yes, I can give you the script and an auth token to use with it
[15:03] <pmcgowan> mterry, fwiw https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity-system-compositor/+bug/1314666
[15:05] <mterry> pmcgowan, odd thing is that that "Failed to read header" message doesn't abort USC...  Would be interesting to see the actual backtrace
[15:06] <pmcgowan> mterry, no crash file unfortunately
[15:06] <mterry> Pics or it didn't happen, pmcgowan!
[15:07] <pmcgowan> mterry, dooh
[15:25] <sil2100> boiko: hi! Did you have any luck with the flaky autopilot tests in dialer-app? (possibly caused by some crash), i.e. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dialer-app/+bug/1307588
[15:27] <boiko> sil2100: so, elopio and I were waiting on some branches to land, cause I think the crash might be related to that very old known dialer-app crash
[15:28] <sil2100> boiko: yay! Since we're still having that on our utopic images - please keep us posted :)
[15:28] <elopio> sil2100, boiko: oh, sorry, my fault.
[15:28] <elopio> sil2100: I was supposed to tell you that.
[15:29] <sil2100> elopio: I'm happy if it's being worked on, these strange failures haunt us for so long already :)
[15:29] <mhall119> pmcgowan: bzoltan: what's the framework version we're going to use for utopic?
[15:30] <pmcgowan> mhall119,  *14.10*
[15:30] <pmcgowan> I expect
[15:30] <pmcgowan> but  a reasonable question
[15:33] <lotuspsychje> you guys are doing a great job! tnx for making ubuntu touch grow
[15:43] <Laney> rsalveti: can I get the current brightness level from powerd?
[15:43] <ogra_> Laney, i think there was something added in the most recent uplaod
[15:43] <Laney> wasn't that 'dim'?
[15:43] <ogra_>   [ Ricardo Salveti de Araujo ]
[15:43] <ogra_>   * Also exporting dim brightness value via getBrightnessParams
[15:43] <ogra_>   * Bump major version due dbus API changes
[15:44] <ogra_> isnt that what you want ?
[15:44] <Laney> no
[15:44] <ogra_> ah
[15:44] <pmcgowan> popey, are any app updates planned for today?
[15:44] <popey> pmcgowan: no, i planned to do a bunch tomorrow, why?
[15:45] <popey> well, there's a load of updates which landed in trunk since last week
[15:45] <popey> i mean, I am not planning on pushing to the store until tomorrow
[15:45] <pmcgowan> popey, ok, wanted to see if my bug still exists
[15:45] <popey> which bug?
[15:45] <popey> You're lucky if you only have one!
[15:45] <pmcgowan> if I see app and system updates, my update page blanks out
[15:45] <popey> oh, i see that
[15:45] <ogra_> thats an old one
[15:46] <ogra_> (i guess the "swiping upwards, UI goes empty" one)
[15:55] <rsalveti> Laney: there's no way to get the current brightness with powerd
[15:55] <rsalveti> same with hal
[15:56] <rsalveti> as long you have only one entity setting it up, you don't need to read the value
[15:56] <ogra_> there is no sysfs or proc node we could read from ?
[15:56] <rsalveti> ogra_: we do, but that's device specific, and not going over our hal
[15:56] <rsalveti> we moved away from sysfs and are now using the android hal to set up brightness
[15:56] <ogra_> find /sys -name *bright*
[15:56] <Laney> it could remember what it's told
[15:56] <ogra_> reveals a ton
[15:56] <rsalveti> so we can support more devices
[15:57] <ogra_> but yeah, device specific
[15:57] <rsalveti> Laney: it could, can you explain your use case?
[15:57] <rsalveti> but we have the indicator storing that value already
[15:58] <Laney> For the auto brightness mainly
[16:05] <sforshee> ogra_: some devices have the backlight implemented as an led class device, and in that case you can't really discover which device is for the backlight
[16:05] <sforshee> you just have to "know," and the hal knows ;-)
[16:06] <ogra_> yeah, i was hoping to find something generic in /proc
[16:06] <sforshee> well there *is* a backlight class, just some devices chose not to use that for their backlights
[16:06] <ogra_> right
[16:06] <ogra_> evil android
[16:06] <rsalveti> right
[16:06] <rsalveti> not android's fault
[16:06] <rsalveti> necessarily
[16:07] <rsalveti> depends on the vendor haha
[16:07] <sforshee> well, they could have not provided the hal interface and just made them use the backlight class
[16:08] <rsalveti> right, but you're expecting too much :-)
[16:09] <rsalveti> Laney: but don't you have the value already when dealing with it in system-settings?
[16:09] <rsalveti> I believe there might be a way to retrive that value from the indicator
[16:09] <rsalveti> as I said, we could store that in powerd, but there's no need currently
[16:09] <janimo> rsalveti, was ubuntuappmanager deprecated?
[16:09] <lotuspsychje> does ubuntu touch use dconf-editor too?
[16:09] <Laney> The indicator knows if you set it through the indicator, of course
[16:10] <Laney> But that won't work any more when auto brightness modifies the value
[16:10] <sforshee> Laney: so you want a slider that jumps around with autobrightness changes?
[16:13] <Laney> It's not me that wants it, but that is what the design asks for
[16:13] <sforshee> ick
[16:13] <Laney> you could say that having the slider show whatever value it happened to have before is ick too
[16:13] <rsalveti> right
[16:13] <rsalveti> just tested with android
[16:14] <rsalveti> once you set autobrightness you basically can't change brightness without disabling autobrightness
[16:14] <rsalveti> so it just stays with the previous value
[16:14] <Laney> yeah
[16:14] <rsalveti> once you set a different one, it disables auto-brightness
[16:14] <Laney> our design is different
[16:15] <Laney> you can change the slider to provide input to the auto brightness function
[16:15] <Tassadar> some oems keep the slider enabled, and it acts as "baseline" for the autobrightness algorithm
[16:15] <Laney> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BrightnessAndDisplays#Phone
[16:15] <Tassadar> samsung does that, I think
[16:22] <ajalkane> anyone know if the problem with Ubuntu Touch image on emulator has been resolved? The one where all the "tabs" are just empty. Especially the Apps tab
[16:23] <ogra_> i dont think there was any work on the armhf emulator recently
[16:23] <ogra_> all focus is on i386
[16:23] <ajalkane> oh damn
[16:24] <rsalveti> Laney: interesting, yeah, this would need to be in powerd
[16:24] <Laney> rsalveti: In general I think that you should be able to get data out if you put it in, but yeah there is an actual usecase here ;-)
[16:25] <Laney> I was prompted by https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/powerd/+bug/1314678 which just got filed btw
[16:25] <rsalveti> yeah, saw that already
[16:25]  * Laney nod
[16:26] <rsalveti> sforshee: any comments on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BrightnessAndDisplays#Phone ?
[16:26] <rsalveti> as you did the original implementation of the auto-brightness code
[16:26] <Laney> I think m_pt might have had some fun writing this spec :P
[16:26] <rsalveti> can imagine that
[16:35] <rsalveti> Tassadar: yeah, it seems that's what our designers want
[16:38] <lool> cjwatson: oh thanks
[16:38] <lool> cjwatson: changing click chroot > you mean the default target?
[16:38] <lool> cjwatson: hmm and there's the question of the PPA too
[16:39] <cjwatson> lool: It has a basic mapping thing, it'll be clear if you grep
[16:40] <cjwatson> feel free to make it less stupid along the way :)
[16:41] <lool> :-)
[16:56] <sforshee> rsalveti: I gave feedback to someone about that autobrightness idea over email one time (maybe Laney?). I can dig it up and forward it to you if you want.
[16:56] <rsalveti> sforshee: sure, that would be useful
[16:57] <Laney> don't think it was me
[16:58] <sforshee> Laney: no, looks like it was mpt. I'll forward it to you too.
[16:58] <Laney> Okay, but mpt is the one to convince, not me :)
[17:02] <sforshee> Laney: I don't really have a horse in this race, though I do think that trying to hit a moving target on the slider could be troublesome.
[17:03] <rsalveti> yeah
[17:04] <cwayne1> kenvandine: is there an easy way to launch gallery-app to a specific photo?
[17:08] <kenvandine> cwayne1, no idea... Elleo ^^
[17:09] <Elleo> cwayne1: I think I remember someone mentioning something along those lines in one of our stand ups a few months back
[17:09] <Elleo> artmello: ^ do you know anything about that?
[17:10] <Elleo> I think someone was adding a url handler or something to let you reference specific photos
[17:10] <Elleo> but I can't remember any of the details
[17:10] <artmello> Elleo: yes, we are adding url handler but is still work in progress
[17:10] <artmello> so you would be able to open specific photos
[17:11] <Elleo> ah, right
[17:11] <Elleo> cwayne1: ^
[17:11] <Elleo> artmello: thanks :)
[17:11] <artmello> Elleo: np :)
[17:11] <cwayne1> artmello: any idea when that's planned to land?
[17:12] <artmello> cwayne1: is in the queue with high priority, but I am not sure when exactly
[17:25] <Hashcode> rsalveti: ping
[17:33] <rsalveti> Hashcode: pong
[17:34] <Hashcode> rsalveti: i figured out why system was able to boot
[17:35] <Hashcode> odd :P
[17:35] <Hashcode> I needed something in lib/scripts to be set executable
[17:35] <rsalveti> hm, right
[17:35] <rsalveti> weird
[17:35] <Hashcode> I basically chmod -R 755 /lib abd /scripts
[17:35] <rsalveti> which script?
[17:35] <Hashcode> and it boots up
[17:35] <rsalveti> haha, right
[17:35] <Hashcode> I could narrow it down
[17:35] <Hashcode> but scripts was later
[17:35] <Hashcode> initially busybox (as init) was getting perm denied
[17:36] <rsalveti> right
[17:36] <Hashcode> I think the linker ld file needs to be executable on my device for some reason
[17:36] <rsalveti> still weird, as the same init works for us
[17:36] <Hashcode> Yes, but if you test it this way.. I bet you'll see similar results:
[17:37] <Hashcode> boot into a recovery
[17:37] <Hashcode> push the ramdisk /bin and /lib folders
[17:37] <Hashcode> chmod -R 755 /bin
[17:37] <Hashcode> and then try running bin/busybox
[17:38] <Hashcode> I don't understand the perm thing :/
[17:38] <ogra_> whats the issue ?
[17:38] <Hashcode> ogra_ when I make otapackage using kk, my ramdisk in boot.img is the standard ubuntu touch one
[17:38] <ogra_> oh
[17:38] <ogra_> weird
[17:38] <Hashcode> busybox acting as init gets perm denied until I chmod -R 755 on /lib
[17:39] <Hashcode> and then the scripts won't execute right till I do the same for that dir
[17:39] <Hashcode> (I should figure out if it's just the linker lib that needs 755)
[17:39] <rsalveti> maybe something the android build script is doing
[17:39] <Hashcode> yeah that's what I was wondering
[17:39] <ogra_> which iis strange since it just works for us
[17:39] <Hashcode> it's getting unpacked and repacked
[17:39] <Hashcode> for the otapackage process
[17:39] <rsalveti> right, that is probably why
[17:39] <ogra_> ah
[17:40] <ogra_> yeah, most likely
[17:40] <Hashcode> I should grab the raw ramdisk file
[17:40] <Hashcode> and unpack it
[17:40] <Hashcode> to check the perms on those
[17:41] <Hashcode> Anyway, was more FYI than anything.  I'm not sure of the actual fix yet :P
[17:41] <ogra_> well, also check how it gets repackaged when it gets compressed again
[19:23] <utack> does ubuntu touch really run on it's own kernel or the android one?
[19:24] <ogra_> it needs to use the android kernel source ... but it gets patched and uses our own config
[19:25] <ogra_> (simply because the binary drivers wont work with any other kernel)
[19:26] <utack> okay
[19:26] <utack> makes sense
[19:27] <utack> that ancient 3.4 android uses?
[19:27] <kenvandine> Elleo, my snap decision branch adds strings to content-hub that should really get translated
[19:28] <ogra_> i think its 3.5 atm
[19:28]  * ogra_ checks 
[19:28] <ogra_> ah, no., 3.4.0 actually
[19:28] <ogra_> jdstrand, mind dropping by in #ubuntu-mir ?
[19:29] <ogra_> there is someone trying to build a click package using mir stuff ... and we're not clear how much he can do under confinement
[19:29] <utack> ogra_, is that ok to answer on xda? http://paste.ubuntu.com/7368434/
[19:30] <ogra_> s/view/few/
[19:30] <ogra_> but yeah, looks fine
[19:30] <utack> brainfart
[19:30] <utack> thanks
[19:30] <ogra_> :)
[19:30] <utack> allright
[19:31] <utack> i was a little confused at first. but given that any android devices has a ton of crappy closed source stuff, what choice do you have really
[19:31] <ogra_> right
[19:31] <utack> are there plans to use a real linux for ubuntu touch dedicated phones?
[19:31] <ogra_> we ban it into an lxc-continer
[19:32] <ogra_> so we can still use a "normal" system ... just that there is a blackbox (teh container) where the android hal runs in ... things that need support from any of the HAL bits can then talk to the container via libhybris
[19:33] <Elleo> kenvandine: ah, right
[19:33] <ogra_> utack, how would that work ?
[19:33] <ogra_> we wouldnt have any drivers for anything
[19:34] <utack> unless you use a proper soc and hardware?
[19:34] <utack> sure
[19:34] <ogra_> the SoC doesnt matter
[19:34] <ogra_> you wont have a modem, most sensors etc
[19:34] <ogra_> its the peripherials ... not the SoC
[19:34] <kenvandine> Elleo, so i need to figure that out... never done that with c++ and cmake
[19:35] <utack> sensors are that hard to deal with.? modem i can see
[19:35] <ogra_> and there are none that have open drivers
[19:35] <utack> crappy proprietary stuff
[19:35] <ogra_> right
[19:35] <ogra_> thats mostly true for graphics, accelerometer, most GPS phone chips etc
[19:35] <Elleo> kenvandine: yeah, I've only ever done gettext stuff with C + autotools, so I don't have any hints to offer I'm afraid
[19:35] <ogra_> heck even mobile bluetooth with open drivers is rare
[19:36] <ogra_> (though there might be some)
[19:36] <Elleo> well and with python, but that's even less relevant
[19:36] <kenvandine> i'll figure it out :)
[19:36] <Elleo> :)
[19:36] <kenvandine> make me wish we were using autotools though :)
[19:36] <Elleo> heh
[19:37] <utack> well graphics i counted as soc part. accelerometer should be easy to deal with (it is really jsut a view i²c etc values dropping out?). phone chip: well crap
[19:37] <utack> so yeah. no real choice without a lot of power behind it
[19:37] <cyphermox> ogra_: open drivers?
[19:37] <ogra_> cyphermox, well, just guessing :)
[19:37] <cyphermox> ogra_: keep dreaming ;)
[19:38] <utack> i don't know where freedreno is going. i admire their work, but does it help anyone with the rest of the whole phone still not working in newer linux kernels?
[19:38] <ogra_> not sure there are actual BT mobiole chips that have open ones ... i thought the n900 had one
[19:38] <cyphermox> ogra_: if it does, it's probably the only one
[19:38] <ogra_> i think n900 had open GPS and BT ... but i might be totally wrong :)
[19:38] <ogra_> (its so long ago)
[19:39] <ogra_> freedreno is awesome but that will still take a while and will likely never be on par with the closed drivers
[19:39] <ogra_> like nouveau vs nvidia drivers ...
[19:41] <ogra_> and on phones battery life is critical ... which means you need a driver that supports all hardware features to not fall back to SW rendering, to make sure there is the best power mgmt you can get etc
[19:43] <utack> ogra_, the closed drivers made by qualcomm are ****, so it might be?
[19:46] <ogra_> utack, well, all of ubuntu touch is open (apart from the blobs indee) feel free to grab it and try to make freedreno work ;)
[19:46] <mbalmer> how many blobs are there?
[19:47] <ogra_> graphics, sensors, gps, codecs ...
[19:47] <ogra_> (i surely forgot some)
[19:47] <ogra_> bt indeed :)
[19:48] <mbalmer> so quite some... that sucks.
[19:48] <ogra_> thats how mobile is :/ ... not much you can do
[19:48] <ogra_> its not like firefoxOS or jolla do it any different
[19:49] <mbalmer> so "they" say opensource, where in reality they are totally proprietary
[19:50] <ogra_> not totally, but on the driver level, yes
[19:51] <mbalmer> so not opensource at all, in reality, lets face that.
[19:51] <ogra_> well, if it wouldnt be "at all" we wouldnt be able to build ubuntu with it
[19:52] <ogra_> luckily the majority of android *is* open ... just a lot on the low level isnt
[20:10] <Hashcode> I wonder what utack considers a "real" linux kernel..
[20:10] <Hashcode> >.>
[20:10] <Hashcode> <.<
[20:12] <ajalkane> mbalmer: they say opensource, they mean they are where they can. I'm meaning Ubuntu specifically. There's very little if any proprietary stuff in Ubuntu touch AFAIK in the parts Ubuntu has a choice
[20:13] <ajalkane> I haven't looked at Firefox OS, but I have the understanding it's same as Ubuntu - open source where it can be. Jolla seems to keep their "upper levels" closed source mostly, while the middleware and core are open source
[20:14] <Guest94358> hi there
[20:15] <ajalkane> how do you do Guest94358
[20:17] <ogra_> as i undrestood it (might be totally wrong) firefoxOS is underneath actually android and just uses gecko instead of dalvik
[20:17] <Guest94358> I'd like to know if is possible to exchange every app installed in my cellular with apps open source
[20:17] <ogra_> Guest94358, if you find someone writing a replacement for "every app on your cellular" it surely is
[20:17] <dobey> Guest94358: we can't answer that. you will have to search for similar open source apps and decide if they fit your needs or not
[20:18] <ajalkane> ogra_: nevertheless, isn't android in the lower levels anyway open source except the driver bits no OS manufactor has control over
[20:18] <dobey> or just write them, indeed
[20:18] <ogra_> ajalkane, right ... else we wouldnt be able to modify it for our needs
[20:19] <ogra_> we rip out a lot even from the HAL layer ... to only use the bare minimum we need
[20:19] <ajalkane> So in the discussion about which one is more open source, in my limited understanding Firefox OS and Ubuntu are equal.
[20:19] <dobey> webos
[20:20] <mbalmer> you can not be "more" open source.  either your are open source or you are not.
[20:20] <dobey> ajalkane: anything running on top of android kernel is going to be relatively the same level of open source
[20:21] <ajalkane> mbalmer: that's nice in black and white world, but there's only black and gray in mobile
[20:21] <ajalkane> dobey: I disagree
[20:21] <dobey> black and slightly less black
[20:21] <mbalmer> fifty shades of grey...
[20:21] <ajalkane> Yeah
[20:21] <dobey> ajalkane: in terms of the low level bits, it's true. none of them can make android be "more" open than it is
[20:22] <dobey> ajalkane: they can choose to make their UI bits open or not, sure
[20:22] <ogra_> mbalmer, wrong ... you can not *be* opensource at all :) but you can open your code ... which is what we do and which is what google does too (at least for AOSP) ... but vendors dont ...
[20:22] <ogra_> and a phone os be it ubuntu ot firefox or jolla is a sum of these
[20:22] <dobey> ogra_: well, all the data is there for humans to *be* open source, though we don't understand all of it 100% yet ;)
[20:23] <ogra_> s/ot/or/
[20:23] <ogra_> haha
[20:23] <ajalkane> dobey: yeah, whatever you do yourself can be controlled. But I in anycase can appreciate even partial open sourcing. I ofcourse give more respect to full open sourcing for everything that the company can open source.
[20:24] <ogra_> well
[20:24] <ogra_> vendors arent and wont opensroucne their driver code
[20:25] <dobey> you mean chip vendors? or phone vendors?
[20:25] <ogra_> you can indeed build a *fully open* phone OS
[20:25] <ogra_> dobey, chip manufacturers
[20:26] <ajalkane> ogra_: they won't until there's enough consumer pressure for it. Practically it means open source OSs winning the market share, and the little margins of open source caring people swaying the remaining low level bits open sourced makes competitive difference. Sad but true
[20:26] <ogra_> but such an "open" os would have to use plain frambuffer, would not be able to make calls, play videos, or music ... and would most likely have a battery life of 3h on a nexus device
[20:27] <ogra_> not sure anyone would want such a phone :)
[20:27] <dobey> ogra_: well, there's probably some chips for various things that do have enough info for writing open source drivers, but they aren't used in majority of phones we care to support, and aren't part of the "next level" of technology that we want to ship on from the start.
[20:27] <dobey> but yeah
[20:28] <dobey> the baseband will be huge blocking point for a fully open phone, for a while stillf
[20:28] <ogra_> dobey, even if you have some of that data your driver would be nouveau not the nvidia blob ... and if you are a hardcore gamer i would doubt you would pick nouveau
[20:29] <dobey> true, but even with the level of support in steam, "hardcore PC gamer" is still running windows
[20:29] <ogra_> especially on the phone where your open driver most likely will only cover a handfull of the power mgmt features your chip has ... so you end up with bad battery life again
[20:29] <ogra_> if you want a *competing* but still open phone OS you *have* to make compromises
[20:30] <dobey> of course
[20:30] <dobey> life is compromises
[20:30] <ogra_> yeah
[20:30] <ogra_> well, for some in here it seems its not :)
[20:30] <dobey> if they are on the internet, they made a compromise :)
[20:30] <dobey> whether they admit it or not
[20:31] <ogra_> and i assume if canonical would be at google size you actually would have some completely open HW
[20:31] <ogra_> but after all we're a small company with only 500 employees around the world
[20:31] <dobey> the massive chain of routers, gateways, swtiches, etc… to connect to this server, are not all running fully open software on fully open hardware :)
[20:31] <ogra_> yeah, that too
[20:31] <dobey> and probably neither is the computer they're typing on
[20:33] <dobey> yeah, when canonical has google's market value, we'll all be happy ;)
[20:34] <dobey> in the meantime though
[20:34] <dobey> where are the docs for how to make a webapp click for the phone?
[20:34] <dobey> and can i change the User-Agent for a webapp?
[20:35]  * ogra_ will be happy if canonical has 2% of googles market value 
[20:35] <dobey> that too
[20:36] <bact> do you really think they would manufacturer their own open hardware?
[20:36] <ogra_> who ?
[20:36] <ogra_> we ?
[20:36] <bact> canonical
[20:37] <ogra_> heh, no ... but with a marketshare like google you can dictate that the drivers have to be open
[20:37] <ogra_> if you want to
[20:38] <bact> would that even be legal though?
[20:38] <ogra_> there are no plans that canonical wwill turn into a HW company ... but if you are big enough you can apply pressure to your manufacturers
[20:38] <bact> I thought there had to be some sort of obfuscation to the underlying interfaces to avoid people bypassing those legally required interfaces for the fbi to track/listen to you etc
[20:39] <ogra_> "we will only use your hardware (and sell 1 billion of units) if you deliver it with open drivers"
[20:39] <bact> you're going to sell your product to 1/7th of the worlds population ogra_?
[20:40] <ogra_> if canonical would have the size and market share google has ?
[20:40] <ogra_> sure
[20:40] <dobey> bact: sure it's legal.
[20:40] <ogra_> if you are that big you can definitely set such requirements
[20:41] <ogra_> annd if a vendor has the choice to sell 1 bn. vs not selling at all they will follow
[20:41] <dobey> warrantless wiretaps are illegal though
[20:41] <ogra_> point is though ... we arent that big :)
[20:41] <ajalkane> It's all about how big you are. The chipset vendors have no interest in open sourcing unless they see some benefit from it
[20:41] <dobey> sadly we aren't
[20:42] <ogra_> well ... luckily we arent ... as well :)
[20:42] <dobey> true ;)
[20:42] <bact> ajalkane: broadcom couldn't even bring themselves to fully open-source the old soc the raspberry pi sues
[20:42] <bact> *uses
[20:42] <ogra_> because they dont own all of the HW
[20:43] <ajalkane> bact: yeah. These folks won't open source without big pressure. And there's just marginal interest right now in open sourcing.
[20:43] <dobey> and raspberry pi has no market value
[20:43] <bact> is there even an open source bios yet for desktops?
[20:43] <ogra_> yup
[20:43] <ogra_> coreboot
[20:43] <dobey> bact: like openbios?
[20:43] <bact> dobey: it has plenty of market of value, they have sold millions
[20:43] <ogra_> and openbios
[20:43] <dobey> bact: it doesn't mean the company is worth $1500/share in public stock
[20:44] <dobey> market value != how many things you've sold
[20:44] <bact> :/
[20:44] <dobey> otherwise, chinese would be the official language of the US already
[20:45] <ogra_> bact, the RPi chip is a leftover stock from a settopbox vendor  ...
[20:45] <dobey> exactly
[20:45] <ogra_> (which is the reason why it can do exactly one thing well (video en/decoding) ... and is crap in all other disciplines )
[20:45] <bact> ogra_: yep, I've always suspected it was something like that, seeing as eben upton (main rpi guy) works at broadcom and all..
[20:46] <bact> 'boss I found a great way of offload all those old chips'
[20:46] <bact> *to
[20:46] <ogra_> they wont be able to sell their v2 (if that ever exists) to the same cheap price
[20:46] <bact> you can't even stick ubuntu on it because its armv6
[20:46] <ogra_> yep
[20:47]  * ogra_ got death thread mails because of telling people that back a few years ago 
[20:47] <bact> ouch
[20:47] <ajalkane> First of all, RPi would have to put pressure for open source dirvers. If that would happen, they'd need to be a major player in the total of sold chips. I doubt RPi is even 1% of the chips sold for that particular manufacturer
[20:47] <ogra_> (when i was still working in the ubuntu-arm team and they accused me to be the blocker ... they didnt understand that their HW wasnt capable)
[20:47] <dobey> ajalkane: broadcom? certainly not
[20:48] <dobey> ogra_: but, but, it's arm!
[20:48] <dobey> anyway
[20:48] <dobey> webapps? :)
[20:48] <ogra_> heh
[20:48]  * dobey wants to make a webapp, but must be able to change the User-Agent
[20:49] <ogra_> wait a few days ... the webapp-container is just getting a cmdline option for that
[20:49] <bact> yeah, the main debian project for the rpi has to recompile all the packages for hard float support
[20:49] <ogra_> dobey, beyond that ... iirc daker had a blog post on how to do that
[20:49] <ogra_> with a WebView
[20:50] <ogra_> dobey, bug 1245465
[20:50] <dobey> ah ok
[20:50] <ogra_> bots galore :)
[20:50] <bact> why two?
[20:51] <ogra_> not sure, one was dead for a few days
[20:51] <ogra_> and jussi added a new one today ... seems the old one came back too :)
[20:52] <ogra_> can never have enough bugbots in a channel ;)
[20:54] <ogra_> bact, bug 848154 btw
[20:55] <bact> the beaglebone black is at a similar price point now
[20:57] <bact> :o "VEHEMENTLY AND VIOLENTLY DISAGREE"
[20:57] <ogra_> heh
[20:57] <ogra_> the people on the bug were actually callm
[20:58] <ogra_> we had way worse people show up in #ubuntu-arm ... and well on forums etc ... the worst ones sent personal and very very unfriendly mails though
[20:58] <bact> I like how the rec9140 commented again 2 years later
[21:02] <daker> dobey: http://daker.me/2013/10/package-your-webapp-for-ubuntu-touch.html
[21:02] <ogra_> i love how he expects to be able to run KDE on a RPi in that commant actually :)
[21:02] <ogra_> *comment
[21:02] <bact> the pi can't even run lxde well
[21:03] <ogra_> yep
[21:03] <dobey> waaah, i can't run ubuntu on my arduino!
[21:03] <ogra_> its quite sad that the company that was poineering such boards never got the traction the RPi got ...
[21:04] <ogra_> Ti would have deserved that the beagleboard or beaglebone would have become that big ...
[21:04] <dobey> daker: ah, thanks
[21:04] <bact> ti are out of the game now
[21:04] <ogra_> bt thats like VHS vs BtaMax i guess
[21:04] <daker> dobey: it still uses qtwebkit, i'ill write another one for oxide
[21:04] <ogra_> well, the beaglebone black still exists
[21:05] <ogra_> and will go on so
[21:05] <ogra_> daker, is that actually different on the QMl layer ?
[21:05] <dobey> daker: i thought using UbuntuWebView was supposed to just be oxide now?
[21:05] <ogra_> i thought it gets just chosen by what framework you define in the manifest
[21:06] <daker> dobey: yes but i was looking at it rightnow
[21:06] <ogra_> but the QML side stays the same
[21:06] <dobey> well right
[21:06] <daker> ogra_: using the UbuntuWebView it should stay the same
[21:06] <ogra_> phesw
[21:06] <ogra_> *phew even
[21:06] <dobey> but for ubuntu-sdk-14.04-dev or whatever, it's oxide right?
[21:06] <ogra_> -dev1 i think
[21:07] <ogra_> but yeah
[21:07] <dobey> cool. i might make an app tonight
[21:08] <daker> ogra_: yes it will use oxide, you just need to use import Ubuntu.Components.Extras.Browser 0.2
[21:08] <daker> not 0.1
[21:08] <daker> https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~phablet-team/webbrowser-app/trunk/view/head:/src/Ubuntu/Components/Extras/Browser/qmldir
[21:08] <pmcgowan> daker, can you not accomplish the same making a simple webapp? rather than qml with a webview?
[21:09] <ogra_> aha
[21:09] <ogra_> pmcgowan, not when you want to override the UA string
[21:09] <pmcgowan> we are fixing that
[21:09] <ogra_> yep
[21:09] <ogra_> bug 1245465
[21:10] <pmcgowan> yep filed me moi
[21:10] <dobey> or if you want to provide other UI on top of it, than what the webapp container gives you
[21:10] <pmcgowan> right
[21:10] <dobey> or if you want it to work on the 14.04 image :)
[21:10] <dobey> or will that fix get SRUed and a new image built?
[21:11]  * ogra_ tickles pmcgowan and steals his credit 
[21:11] <ogra_> Reported by Oliver Grawert on 2013-10-28
[21:11] <ogra_> :P
[21:11] <daker> pmcgowan: as ogra_ said
[21:11] <pmcgowan> hah
[21:11] <pmcgowan> not sure if we will SRU it, we could
[21:11]  * daker waits for this bug to complete his 1st year :p
[21:12] <ogra_> pmcgowan, for the desktop ?
[21:12] <pmcgowan> ogra_, well we could do either or both
[21:12]  * ogra_ doesnt really see benefit in SRUing to trusty on the phone 
[21:12] <pmcgowan> yep
[21:13] <ogra_> but then i dont see any benefit in the stable channel either ... until we actually have a stable product
[21:13] <dobey> ogra_: well if it's a bug fix and we expect people to use the feature in making web apps, might be nice for it to work for people who are stuck on trusty
[21:13] <ogra_> better get them on utopic with their phones
[21:13] <dobey> or well, i don't want to make an app and have it not work on trusty, because we didn't SRU the fix, but the framework id is the same
[21:13] <ogra_> once we have something we can call final i agree, we should have a stable image
[21:14] <ogra_> and think about SRUs and backporting
[21:14] <ogra_> but thats still a bit away ...
[21:14] <pmcgowan> we also need to update the fw rev for utopic work
[21:14] <ogra_> right
[21:14] <dobey> because i don't want it to have a bunch of reviews of 1 star complaining about it just telling them to install the android app :P
[21:15] <dobey> but either way, the WebView qml lets me have it work on both easily enough
[21:17] <daker> ogra_: if i am not wrong, adding --ua should be only allowed for webapps not for the browser-app itself ?
[21:17] <ogra_> yeah
[21:18] <pmcgowan> daker, thats right, the browser has a configured set of UA overrides on a per site basis
[21:18] <ogra_> they are different binaries
[21:18] <daker> ah nvm it's already implemented by Alex
[21:18] <ogra_> webapp-container vs webbrowser-app
[21:18] <daker> yes
[21:18] <ogra_> so they can take different options
[21:38] <dobey> Cannot set WebContext.sessionCookieMode once the context is in use
[21:38] <dobey> hmm, i think that's causing me problems
[21:51] <daker> dobey: use oxide directly ;)
[21:51] <dobey> daker: WebView can't have cookies?
[21:52] <daker> well i think it should work
[21:52] <daker> where do you see this ? Cannot set WebContext.sessionCookieMode once the context is in use
[21:52] <daker> in the console ?
[21:55] <daker> dobey: ^
[21:56] <dobey> yes on the console
[21:56] <dobey> when i do qmlscene foo.qml
[21:57] <dobey> and the web page tells me it can't work and i should try to "disable private browsing"
[21:58] <daker> hmm maybe it's related to this bug 1301650
[21:59] <dobey> well, it's not crashing
[21:59] <daker> dobey: do you open a URL ?
[21:59] <daker> or a local file ?
[21:59] <dobey> yes
[21:59] <dobey> url
[22:00] <daker> dobey: try this http://paste.ubuntu.com/7369203/
[22:03] <dobey> daker: and with getUAString() inside the WebView still?
[22:04] <ogra_> heh
[22:04]  * ogra_ sees his bugmail and notes that asac did a nostalgic hack day 
[22:09] <daker> dobey: no, here is a working example http://paste.ubuntu.com/7369248/
[22:11] <dobey> ah
[22:12] <daker> here you are using plain oxide
[22:14] <dobey> hmm, the console message goes away with that, but the site still shows the same error :(
[22:14] <daker> can you paste the link here ?
[22:14] <dobey> https://read.amazon.com/
[22:16] <daker> dobey: what useragent are you using ?
[22:16] <dobey> "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Ubuntu; Linux x86_64; rv:28.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/28.0"
[22:17] <dobey> just to be sure, because the site does work in firefox here
[22:18] <daker> yes getting the same message
[22:19] <dobey> i wonder why
[22:19] <dobey> fml
[22:20] <dobey> even in a private mode firefox window, it just gives me the login page
[22:20] <dobey> so i wonder what is making it not work :(
[22:21] <daker> i am trying to debug this
[22:28] <dobey> daker: thanks
[22:30] <daker> dobey: ah i know what caused that :)
[22:31] <dobey> oh, what?
[22:31] <daker> you need to enable the localstorage
[22:31] <dobey> ah
[22:31] <dobey> can you do that with just WebView?
[22:31] <dobey> or do you need full oxide?
[22:31] <daker> http://paste.ubuntu.com/7369344/
[22:31] <daker> their a MR request that hasn't been merged yet that enable localstorage by default
[22:32] <dobey> ah
[22:32] <daker> bug 1309673
[22:33] <dobey> cool
[22:34] <daker> :)
[22:36] <dobey> now to make icons and learn how to make a click from command line
[22:38] <dobey> thanks daker!
[22:38] <dobey> now time to get off here and do some other stuff for a while :)
[22:48] <daker> yw