/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/05/07/#ubuntu-doc.txt

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slickymasterWorkdamn connection09:44
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belkinsaDoc Team meeting in Hour in #ubuntu-meeting!16:59
belkinsaIn an hour*16:59
belkinsaMeeting is in 15 minutes in #ubuntu-meeting!17:42
belkinsaMeeting in 10 minutes in #ubuntu-meeting!17:49
belkinsaMeeting in 5 minutes in #ubuntu-meeting!17:54
belkinsaThe meeting, in #ubuntu-meeting, is starting right now!17:59
belkinsaAgenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda18:00
belkinsaWho is here for the Doc Team meeting?18:00
belkinsaSorry, wrong window.18:01
=== shaunm_ is now known as shaunm
shaunmGunnarHj: some teams have included virtual participants in their sprints in the past. I don't control what happens in the sprints18:39
shaunmI've done in-person sprints and I've done virtual sprints. they both have their strengths and weaknesses. but virtual sprints are just no substitute for face time with your community18:40
pleia2agreed, in person sprints are super useful18:41
GunnarHjshaunm: Ok, I see. The problem is the distance.18:41
pleia2yeah, it's hard for an all volunteer team to find resources for such a thing18:41
shaunmsure. unfortunately, the planet is rather big18:41
pleia2Canonical does have community funding that we might look into: http://community.ubuntu.com/help-information/funding/18:42
shaunmdoes canonical not have money to throw at volunteer community members?18:42
knomehmm.18:43
belkinsaknome, meeting in #ubuntu-meeting, if you want to join in.18:43
pleia2it would require a pretty detailed proposal to bring to canoncal and buy-in from the whole team, but I think it's a real option18:44
pleia2and they don't disclose how much money exists in this community pool, so I'd shoot for being frugal18:44
knomehehe18:45
belkinsaWell, that was a fail.19:03
knomewhat then? :)19:03
belkinsaMaybe we should do the meetings here instead.19:03
godbykbelkinsa: What was a fail?19:04
knomeprobably.19:04
godbykWe could hold meetings in this channel. We have the meetingology bot here.19:04
pmatulis_this channel could use some activity.  it's been dead for a few years19:04
belkinsaYeah and we can have longer meetings.19:04
godbykAnd we don't have to worry about scheduling conflicts with others.19:04
GunnarHjbelkinsa: Are we returning to the meeting?19:05
belkinsaYou think we can move on with the meeting here with meetingology?19:05
knome#startmeeting19:05
meetingologyMeeting started Wed May  7 19:05:52 2014 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.19:05
meetingologyAvailable commands: action commands idea info link nick19:05
knome#chair belkinsa19:05
meetingologyCurrent chairs: belkinsa knome19:05
belkinsagodbyk, and pmatulis_19:05
knome#unchair knome19:05
meetingologyCurrent chairs: belkinsa knome19:05
belkinsa#chair godbyk pmatulis_19:06
meetingologyCurrent chairs: belkinsa godbyk knome pmatulis_19:06
belkinsa#unchair knome19:06
meetingologyCurrent chairs: belkinsa godbyk knome pmatulis_19:06
godbykknome: You were awfully spry with meetingology.. sure you don't want to be a chair? :-)19:06
knomeyeah, i'm running in 519:06
godbykAnyway..19:06
knomeheh, the #unchair command doesn't work19:06
godbykWe were discussing polling to see who users the docs and how often, etc.19:06
belkinsa#topic Desktop: Finding a driver19:06
godbykknome: Guess you're stuck with it!19:06
knome;)19:07
knomewill contact people who'll fix the bot! :P19:07
belkinsa#topic Desktop: Making poll for Doc Team19:07
belkinsaMaybe this could be worked out via the mailing-list and brought up again in the next meeting?19:08
godbykThat's fine with me. Has anyone volunteered to start that discussion?19:09
pmatulis_i brought it up but it should really come from a desktop person19:11
belkinsaWell, it could be all forms of the docs.19:12
belkinsait = poll.19:12
godbykpmatulis_: There's no reason you can't send an email to the list about it, though. :)19:12
pmatulis_godbyk: i can send an email, no biggie19:12
godbykpmatulis_: (I don't think there's are any toes to be stepped on. ;-))19:12
belkinsa#action pmatulis_ Send e-mail to the List about making a poll19:12
meetingologyACTION: pmatulis_ Send e-mail to the List about making a poll19:12
GunnarHjpmatulis_: Thanks. :) (There are not so many desktop people around, that's where we began the discussion.)19:12
knomebbl.19:12
belkinsaSee ya knome19:12
pmatulis_GunnarHj: well, there's only one server people around :)19:13
belkinsaMoving on...19:13
belkinsa;topic Desktop: Stable release update before 14.04.1?19:13
belkinsa#topic Desktop: Stable release update before 14.04.1?19:14
pmatulis_and if you guys don't mind, i need to pick up a certain small person at a certain school bus stop or a certain person is going to get into a whole heap of certain trouble.  be back in 10 for the server part19:14
belkinsaSure, pmatulis_19:14
GunnarHjThe bot seems to be off.19:14
GunnarHjMy item anyway.19:15
belkinsaNo, it's normal.  It only works like that in the meeting channel.19:15
GunnarHjOk..19:15
belkinsaI think we will need it since there will many upgrading from 12.04 LTS to this one.19:16
GunnarHjI thought that since 14.04 is a LTS, we should make it possible to improve the desktop guide compared to what was shipped in April. But considering the item we just discussed, I'm currently not very inclined to open up ubuntu-docs for trusty.19:17
belkinsaYeah, I agree until we know how many are really using the docs.19:18
godbykIs there are to do list for desktop docs for 14.04.1?19:18
GunnarHjgodbyk: No.19:18
GunnarHjgodbyk: There are a few bug reports, that's all.19:18
belkinsaMaybe a to do list is needed to keep the sub-team on track19:19
GunnarHjIndeed. That's why a driver would have been nice to have. ;)19:19
GunnarHjI suggest that we leave it as is for now.19:20
belkinsaMaybe I can be the temp one to just get a task list going?19:20
GunnarHjbelkinsa: Are you volunteering as a temporary desktop guide driver?19:21
belkinsaGunnarHj, yeah, but I  think I might be barking up the wrong tree here19:21
GunnarHjActually, as long as we are only talking about fixing known bugs, we don't need a todo list.19:24
belkinsaLet's just leave it here until we know the usage of the docs19:24
GunnarHj+119:25
godbykbrb19:25
belkinsaOkay.19:26
belkinsaWe will be skipping to Ubuntu Manual since pmatulis_ is not here yet.19:26
belkinsa#topic Ubuntu Manual19:26
belkinsagodbyk, I know there was some talk in the mailing-list about the manual but do you have anything to bring up?19:27
pmatulis_back19:29
belkinsaWelcome back19:30
belkinsaWe skipped your items but they will be next once godbyk gets back.19:30
belkinsaOr not.19:32
belkinsa#topic Server: Revisit option of moving from XML Docbook to RST Markdown19:32
belkinsaObjective: lowering barrier to contribution; a common complaint19:32
belkinsaWe have lots of time since the Server Guide is only officially published every LTS19:32
belkinsaI've already gone over the main machinations to do this19:32
belkinsaPrimary issue is fixing all the broken stuff caused by the conversion (lots of broken hyperlinks)19:32
belkinsaSecondary issue is settling on the appearance/theme; example here: http://serverguide.papamike.ca:8081/19:32
belkinsaDiscuss changes in workflow for translators as part of changing to Markdown19:32
belkinsaWhat changes in workflow are needed to create the PDF version. Will pandoc do the job? Effectively YES19:32
belkinsaAlso is there another other server person here along with pmatulis_?19:34
pmatulis_nope, just me to my knowledge19:35
belkinsaThen I think this could be talked in the list of this team and the Server team, if possible,19:35
pmatulis_er, ok19:35
belkinsaIf that is okay with you.19:35
GunnarHjbelkinsa: Why are you so reluctant to use the meeting to talk about things?19:36
pmatulis_it's fine, i'll send another email :)19:36
belkinsaBecause we lack people and it's impossible to get anything done now.  And we are going to the 120 minute mark.19:37
belkinsaThe start was fine.19:38
pmatulis_it's ok19:38
GunnarHjOk.. Maybe this will improve when we meet more often.19:38
belkinsaI think it will.  ;)19:38
belkinsaAnd also I think when we know how many are really using the docs.19:38
pmatulis_the upshot is that i'm all alone with the server guide in terms of driving/reviewing/committing19:39
GunnarHjRe using the docs, personally I think that's part of a huge topic. But I'll comment on the list.19:39
GunnarHjpmatulis_: Upshot? ;)19:40
pmatulis_and contributions are dwindling to record low levels19:40
pmatulis_GunnarHj: s/upshot/summary19:40
GunnarHjok19:41
belkinsaI see.19:41
belkinsaI think it's happening in most teams, losing numbers.19:41
pmatulis_i send emails out and get replies.  i take the time to reply, but nothing *ever* comes back19:41
GunnarHjSo basically the situation for the server is just as poor as for the desktop guide. :(19:41
pmatulis_hence the agenda of moving to a more palatable format, markdown19:41
belkinsaAnd i think is the same for Ubuntu Manual and the wiki.19:42
GunnarHjI think we should highlight this at the vUDS.19:42
belkinsa+119:43
pmatulis_we do every time19:43
GunnarHjThen let's do it louder. :)19:44
belkinsaMight not help.19:44
knomehmph.19:44
pmatulis_it's hard to compete with the likes of google/askubuntu/forums.  if readership is low (people tend towards 'gimme the answer'), people do not sense a big importance19:44
belkinsaI thought you were gone, knome.19:44
knometo be honest, i don't think any markup is the blocker.19:44
knomei'm back.19:44
belkinsaWelcome back.19:45
belkinsaknome, I agree, it's the readership.19:45
knomeif there aren't people to guide the new contributors with whatever issues they have, they are not going to contribute19:45
knomemost might have problems or be unsure with even reporting bugs19:45
belkinsaI think we are in that cultural sense of just give me the answer.19:46
pmatulis_knome: you feel that people do not contribute b/c of a lack of support/guidance?19:46
knomeyeah.19:47
pmatulis_i don't think people even get far enough to know19:47
knomethat's part of it19:47
GunnarHjI tend to agree with pmatulis_ on that one.19:47
pmatulis_they just look at the procedures and close the tab, or at best go to the wiki instead19:47
belkinsaI'm just chaning the topic since we are talking about already.19:47
belkinsa#topic Any other Business19:48
knomeif we think the procedures page is a bit too daunting, rewrite it19:48
belkinsaWe could.19:48
knometbh, why point any new people to specific procedures anyway?19:48
belkinsaDidn't balloons say something about it?19:48
knomewhy not tell them "you can help us and it's easy (lies!)"19:48
balloons^-^19:49
knomethen point them to a resource where they can talk with people19:49
pmatulis_anyway, based on the last 4 or so UDSs, people keep mentioning lowering the barrier by replacing XML with something simpler.  it is definitely a PITA to deal with19:49
knome...and get enough people to talk with them19:49
knomepmatulis_, who people?19:49
knomepmatulis_, the people who contribute?19:49
pmatulis_knome: the people who decide to show up to the UDS sessions or remotely on irc19:49
belkinsaAnd not do any work for the team?19:50
GunnarHjpmatulis_: Which are probably not prospective contributors.19:50
belkinsaor the project.19:50
pmatulis_if *those* people are saying this, you need to wonder about how the average joe feels19:50
* knome shrugs19:50
knomewe recently rewrote the whole xubuntu documentation19:51
knomewhile i converted most of the stuff to docbook, others have done that as well and it has been no problem19:51
knomethere are enough examples around.19:51
knomein the documentation, that is19:51
pmatulis_interesting.  you get enough contributions for xubuntu?19:51
knomewant to know how something is done? look that up in the source.19:51
belkinsaAnd readership.19:52
godbykSorry, guys. I had a phone call and I need to get back to some other work now. I'll read the logs of this conversation later, though.19:52
pmatulis_knome: look what up in the source?19:52
GunnarHjWe would probably need more of that community spirit as you apparently have in xubuntu.19:52
godbykbelkinsa: Thanks for setting up and chairing the meeting today!19:52
belkinsagodbyk, alright/19:52
belkinsaNot a problem19:52
knomepmatulis_, look up how it's done.19:52
pmatulis_knome: how what is done?19:52
knome~xubuntu-doc is 9 members, of which pretty much everybody are either active or were active when we did the rewriting19:53
knomepmatulis_, well, anything you want to know...19:53
pmatulis_knome: about writing XML?19:53
belkinsaLook, I think we *need* to first figure out the readership then work on lowering that barrier to entry to change something.19:53
knomepmatulis_, "hey, there's a cool infobox there"19:53
knomepmatulis_, -> go see the source and copypaste, change the content19:53
knomepmatulis_, "i wonder how to add that kind of header"19:53
knomepmatulis_, -> go see the source and copypaste19:53
knomei understand some people are not interested in doing things like that, or learn low-medium -difficulty things19:54
knomebut hey... maybe docs is not for them then.19:55
knomemaybe they prefer giving irc support19:55
knomebut to my original point...19:55
knomei don't think any markup is a problem19:55
knomeif people are motivated to help, they will19:55
knomewe can't motivate them to help by telling how easy our markup is.19:55
pmatulis_there are degrees of motivation19:56
knomethat's not a marketing point.19:56
* belkinsa sighs.19:56
knomeit's cool and nice that it is easy19:56
belkinsaI think I want to end this and just have it in a non-meeting setting.19:56
knomebut it itself won't gather contributors19:56
knomebelkinsa, why?19:56
knomebelkinsa, aren't the meetings for discussion?19:56
belkinsaGood point but I think it's just you two now.19:57
belkinsaAnd we are at the two hour makr.19:57
belkinsamark19:57
GunnarHjbelkinsa: me too19:57
belkinsaOh, sorry, GunnarHj.19:57
knomei imagine the logs for the meeting will be specifically up on the meetings page19:57
belkinsaThey will.19:57
knomeregular irc logs arent'.19:57
belkinsaGood point.19:58
knomeor they are, but you really have to dig deep to find anything19:58
GunnarHjAnd this discussion is indeed important.19:58
knomeseems like pmatulis_ went quiet though19:58
belkinsaFIne.19:58
pmatulis_i'm here19:58
knomepmatulis_, so if we had a simpler markup, contributors would flood in from doors and windows? :)19:58
pmatulis_pretend you are a horse19:59
pmatulis_and you see some obstacles up ahead19:59
pmatulis_you will tend to shy away from the really talls ones, unless you are a super horse19:59
knomenow you are saying the markup is the first obstacle20:00
knomeit shouldn't20:00
knome(be)20:00
GunnarHjknome: Well, you mentioned 9 active contributors to the xubuntu docs. If we had just half of that for standard Ubuntu we could accomplish a lot.20:03
knomeexactly20:04
pmatulis_if we presume an interest in contributing, then, yes, the procedures presents an obstacle that the person either overcomes or does not20:04
knomethe average contributor doesn't mind *any* procedures20:05
knomeit makes contributing sound like a lot of work20:05
knomeif they could chat with somebody who explained them some of the procedures while they were asking questions, the barried would be a lot lower20:06
knome"oh btw, we have these procedures, but you know half of them already"20:06
knomeand if people do something "wrong"... what does it matter?20:06
knomethe procedures should hardly be the starting point20:06
pmatulis_well, answer me this then.  why is the wiki & askubuntu & forums an evergrowing pile of contributions while those that depend on docbook are not?  because it's easy as hell, that's why20:08
knomethey are different kind of projects to begin with20:09
knomethe point is human interaction20:09
GunnarHjWell, I for one think the main problem is a lack of people with a true interest in contributing. People with a true interest in contributing are not intimidated by a few procedures. They understand that they are needed.20:09
knomeexcept in wikis, where the point is "everybody acan edit"20:09
knomethe documentation is different by design20:09
knomewhether it was in docbook or markdown20:10
GunnarHjpmatulis_: I think I have an answer to why it's easier to make people contribute to askubuntu and forums: By answering there you instantly shows how skilled you are. People like that. :)20:11
pmatulis_GunnarHj: there is some of that isn't there.  good point20:12
knomeyeah, social acceptance too20:12
belkinsaIt is a today's culture thing.20:14
GunnarHjOTOH askubuntu, forums and such are ineffective. The same questions and answers are posted multiple times at multiple places. That's why a core set of docs is a good thing.20:15
belkinsaThat's why I think we need to figire out readership.20:15
pmatulis_GunnarHj: you mean inefficient prolly20:15
belkinsaIndeed, GunnarHj and that's why I questioned why the need of AskUbuntu/Forums.20:15
pmatulis_GunnarHj: but, they supply what the people want20:16
GunnarHjpmatulis_: Yeah, I probably mean inefficient. Sorry.20:16
pmatulis_GunnarHj: a quick answer to their problem20:16
GunnarHjpmatulis_: True.20:16
belkinsa#link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2013-December/018229.html20:16
GunnarHjWhich leads me to the conclusion that our difficulties in recruiting contributors depends on the fact that there are far too many willing answerers in the forums. :)20:18
pmatulis_so we are weak at both the readership level and the contributor level (boring anonymous xml drudgery)20:18
belkinsa+120:18
belkinsaYes.20:18
pmatulis_difficult for sure20:19
pmatulis_not to mention the fact that our own doc contributor pool is splintered into wiki.ubuntu.com, help.ubuntu.com/community, help.ubuntu.com, ubuntu manual20:21
knomewiki.ubuntu.com shouldn't be documentation.20:21
belkinsaYeah, more for team pages and that such things/20:21
knomeif there are documentation bits there, they should be directed at developers and at most, testers20:22
pmatulis_i stand corrected20:22
knomeit's likely that there is some documentation there though... if you bump into it, notice it on the channel20:23
pmatulis_quick check gave me20:23
pmatulis_https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/Support20:23
pmatulis_and it didn't take long20:23
knomethat's borderline20:24
pmatulis_anyway, i made my point!20:24
knomeand the kernel team probably prefers to maintain it there20:24
belkinsaI agree with knome.20:24
pmatulis_they evidently do prefer to keep their documentation there20:25
pmatulis_anyway, i'm fried.  anything else to the meeting?20:26
GunnarHjThe big challenge is that there are few "average Joes" among the Linux users. "Average Joe" does not run his own server per se, and most desktop users are power users who don't mind googling around to get their expert questions answered.20:26
belkinsaNothing.  I'm not in the mood to talk about the Wiki sub-team item since no one of the PopularsPages are here.20:26
belkinsaI think we just need to try to get monthly meetings going and a poll about readership up.20:27
belkinsaAnd network with developers.20:27
belkinsaAnd sorry for my mood shift.20:29
GunnarHjI'm going to problematize that readership poll. But let me do so on the list.20:29
belkinsaSure.20:29
belkinsaANd it's pmatulis_ action item to bring it up.20:30
GunnarHjright20:30
knomei'm sure he doesn't mind if GunnarHj brings it up.20:30
knomejust get things done20:30
belkinsa#action GunnarHj Be the back up of pmatulis_'s item20:30
meetingologyACTION: GunnarHj Be the back up of pmatulis_'s item20:30
GunnarHjok, I can be backup. :)20:31
belkinsaOkay!  I'm calling this meeting to an end.  Thanks for all for coming.20:31
belkinsa#endmeeting20:31
meetingologyMeeting ended Wed May  7 20:32:15 2014 UTC.20:31
meetingologyMinutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-doc/2014/ubuntu-doc.2014-05-07-19.05.moin.txt20:31
pmatulis_let's try to keep this channel active20:32
knomethanks.20:32
knomelet's keep on doing regular meetings20:32
belkinsapmatulis_, I agree and maybe use meetingology for discussion to log them.20:32
belkinsaknome, we will.20:32
GunnarHjThanks all!20:32
pmatulis_bye peeps20:33
belkinsaSee ya, pmatulis_20:33

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