[09:53] <amigamagic> hi all :)
[10:49] <brainwash> amigamagic: hey, this is the bug report which addresses the lightdm cursor problem -> bug 1024482
[10:54] <[1]amigamagic> brainwash, are you sure is that the right bug report?
[10:55] <brainwash> yes and no
[10:55] <brainwash> check the linked debian reports
[10:55] <amigamagic> maybe it's related but it's not exactly the same problem I think...
[10:56] <brainwash> it should be the same issue just described differently
[10:57] <amigamagic> it talks about the mouse that doesn't change shape everywhere, but to me it's only the busy cursor that doesn't work
[10:58] <brainwash> it's very likely that this is still the same issue
[10:58] <brainwash> "When using LightDM to login to a GNOME Shell session"
[10:59] <brainwash> lightdm (+greeter) and gdm do things differently
[10:59] <brainwash> so there is some sort of incompatibility
[10:59] <amigamagic> I tried xdm and the busy cursor works with that
[11:48] <brainwash> bluesabre: can we set this env var in the greeter code? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity-greeter/+bug/1024482/comments/18
[11:50] <brainwash> I've tested it and apps like abiword, libreoffice, software-center,.. now trigger the busy cursor on startup
[13:42] <ochosi> hi everyone
[13:43] <ochosi> sry, i was busy/away travelling
[13:45] <ochosi> thanks for doing the tests elfy 
[13:46] <ochosi> guess we can move on to the sophisticated patch then if this one works in principle
[13:46] <sidi-valencia> woooho
[13:46] <sidi-valencia> ochosi is back!
[13:47]  * sidi-valencia pokes brainwash, bluesabre, knome, ali1234 and Unit193 all at once.
[13:47] <ochosi> heh
[13:47] <ochosi> hey sidi-valencia 
[13:47] <sidi-valencia> hi
[13:48] <ochosi> didn't know you were hanging out in this channel too :)
[13:48] <sidi-valencia> im everywhere D:
[13:48] <ochosi> does that mean you're just one step away from contributing to xubuntu again? ;)
[13:48] <sidi-valencia> it's funny how the place changed in 5 years though
[13:48] <sidi-valencia> so many more people
[13:48] <sidi-valencia> and some people gone, too
[13:48] <sidi-valencia> ochosi, yes
[13:48] <ochosi> awesome
[13:48] <sidi-valencia> as soon as you guys drop the Ubuntu part I'll join again
[13:48] <ochosi> harhar
[13:49] <ochosi> yeah, luckily there are a few more ppl here now than there were
[13:49] <ochosi> still not too many though
[13:49] <sidi-valencia> is ubuntulog_ a logging daemon?
[13:49] <ochosi> should be, yeah
[13:49] <ochosi> this channel is logged
[15:03] <ochosi> Unit193: could you please add the next team meeting (Friday, May 16th at 10:00am UTC) to the google-cal?
[15:45] <elfy> ochosi: I hope that you'll have the mailing lists in place before the next meeting for us :)
[15:46] <ochosi> elfy: knome was assigned to send a proposal for that to the ML
[15:46] <ochosi> so i'll wait for that
[15:47] <ochosi> that was actually decided at the last meeting, when i wasn't around, so it's not even my fault :)
[15:47] <slickymasterWork> next meeting will be Friday, May 16th at 10:00am UTC, right elfy, ochosi?
[15:48] <ochosi> yup
[15:48] <slickymasterWork> thanks, ochosi 
[15:49] <elfy> though I might make that 
[15:50] <ochosi> good
[15:50] <ochosi> i hope many will make it
[15:50] <ochosi> as i said, it's a bid of an experiment
[15:51] <elfy> depends if I'm working - I believe not
[15:53] <slickymasterWork> I'll make it, but probably will be fighting with my connectivity (as usual at work) :P
[15:53] <elfy> :)
[15:54] <slickymasterWork> you laugh elfy, I despair
[15:54] <elfy> I can usually feel you despairing from over here ;)
[15:55] <slickymasterWork> lol
[15:57] <knome> ochosi, added it to the calendar
[15:57] <elfy> hi knome 
[15:58] <knome> hey elfy
[15:59] <ochosi> bbiab
[17:24] <elfy> ochosi: 1 report that the xfpm fix doesn't work
[18:20] <ochosi> elfy: thanks, i saw it and replied
[18:20] <ochosi> dinner time...
[18:37] <brainwash> heh
[18:39] <brainwash> did anyone test with xscreensaver or other screen lockers? we surely don't want to fix one thing and break another
[18:39] <brainwash> amigamagic: hey
[18:39] <amigamagic> hi brainwash 
[18:40] <brainwash> amigamagic: https://launchpad.net/~thad-fisch/+archive/lightdm-gtk-greeter
[18:40] <brainwash> busy cursor with lightdm(-gtk-greeter)
[18:41] <brainwash> the report I've linked earlier today was the correct one
[18:41] <amigamagic> it's a fix for the busy cursor problem?
[18:42] <brainwash> more like a workaround
[18:42] <brainwash> see https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity-greeter/+bug/1024482/comments/18
[18:43] <brainwash> I've only added the env var to the greeter code
[18:43] <brainwash> and it works fine for me
[18:44] <brainwash> the question is, what could setting this env var possibly break (in the future)? :)
[18:44] <amigamagic> I have to try that...
[18:46] <amigamagic> for that really I don't know... We should check what the GDK_CORE_DEVICE_EVENTS var does...
[18:48] <brainwash> I wonder if we you could include this change for the next bug fix release
[18:48] <brainwash> after a discussion ofc
[18:51] <amigamagic> I found this on a forum thread from 2012 (http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-925138-start-0.html): "If you export GDK_CORE_DEVICE_EVENTS=1, GDK will stop using XInput and use old-school X11 events"
[18:51] <brainwash> yes
[18:52] <brainwash> it shouldn't break anything
[18:52] <brainwash> anything related to xubuntu :)
[18:53] <amigamagic> I think we should try it for a while and check if we see anomalies in the behaviour of gdk applications
[18:54] <amigamagic> xfce itself I think uses gdk for some plugins
[18:55] <brainwash> gdk is used by gtk
[18:57] <brainwash> so we need to look out for cursor anomalies
[18:57] <amigamagic> yes
[18:58] <amigamagic> after the var change, I have to logout and login to check if it works?
[19:04] <amigamagic> ok, now the busy cursor works
[19:05] <amigamagic> the system looks all right. The mouse changes shape when you go to the corners of the windows or in an a text field, etc...
[19:09] <amigamagic> I tried some classic apps (gimp, libreoffice, firefox, chrome, etc.) and it looks all ok. I don't think this var could do troubles in the system, but let's check for a while. 
[19:11] <brainwash> you should check mainly gtk3 apps like gedit
[19:12] <amigamagic> I don't know if I have gtk3 apps
[19:12] <amigamagic> the editor I use are mousepad and geany
[19:12] <brainwash> then just enjoy the busy cursor :)
[19:13] <amigamagic> yeah, of course! Thanks for the help!
[19:14] <amigamagic> Is there already some list with the new features for the 14.10 release? For example, there are some little improvements and bugfixes for xfdesktop and tasklist plugin that could already be included in the 14.10. 
[19:14] <brainwash> roadmap?
[19:15] <brainwash> usually upstream fixes will land automatically in the new release (synced from debian)
[19:15] <brainwash> or manually by someone from the team
[19:15] <brainwash> per request
[19:16] <brainwash> but this requires a new upstream release
[19:17] <brainwash> like xfdesktop 4.11.7
[19:17] <amigamagic> yes, honestly I don't think those fixes and improvements are already in the mainstream
[19:18] <amigamagic> but it's very likely that they will be before 3-4 months
[19:22] <brainwash> these fixes could be tested via the team ppa
[19:29] <amigamagic> for example there is these: https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10813    https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10846   https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10862
[19:32] <amigamagic> they are all fixed albeit only the first has been checked and marked as fixed by an xfce developer. I think there are some developers in the XFCE team that are no more active. No one checked my last 2 fixes from 25 April and 2 May
[19:33] <elfy> evening all 
[19:33] <amigamagic> hi elfy
[19:34] <elfy> hi amigamagic 
[19:36] <brainwash> hey elfy 
[19:38] <elfy> hey brainwash :)
[19:38] <brainwash> amigamagic: the Xfce project needs more helping hands and active developers/maintainers, especially for the near future (gtk3 + wayland + systemd)
[19:40] <amigamagic> yeah
[19:41] <amigamagic> but it's so imperative to switch to gtk3 ? (note that I don't know much of these libraries, being that I've only fixed some xfce bug here and there)
[19:45] <brainwash> gtk2 is old, deprecated and hardly maintained anymore
[19:45] <brainwash> gtk3 is also a requirement for wayland support
[19:53] <amigamagic> is gtk3 totally incompatible with gtk2? 
[19:59] <amigamagic> I mean, if you have to rewrite all from scratch (xfdesktop, thunar, panels, plugins, etc.), I wouldn't like to be in the shoes of the developers... :D
[20:00] <ali1234> gtk3 isn't the problem and systemd isn't the problem
[20:01] <ali1234> porting it to those will be trivial
[20:01] <ali1234> wayland is the problem
[20:01] <ali1234> porting to wayland will require a from-scratch rewrite of almost every component
[20:03] <amigamagic> ouch
[20:05] <ali1234> and the end result would be as different from xfce as gnome 3 is from gnome 2
[20:08] <brainwash> why that? will coders get bored of writing it from scratch and start messing around with the design? :D
[20:08] <ali1234> no, it's basically because wayland implements only the functions needed to implement gnome shell
[20:08] <ali1234> in xfce and in gnome panel, the panel and window manager are separate, yeah?
[20:09] <brainwash> it's built around gnome3 =S
[20:09] <ali1234> and you can use xfce panel with metacity, or gnome panel with xfwm?
[20:09] <ali1234> in gnome shell, the window manager and panel are one big monolithic binary
[20:09] <ali1234> and so in wayland, that's the only way you're allowed to make a shell
[20:09] <brainwash> like unity
[20:09] <ali1234> yes, exactly like unity
[20:09] <brainwash> unity8 + mir won't be different
[20:10] <ali1234> mir is almost exactly the same as wayland in every way
[20:10] <brainwash> hooray
[20:10] <amigamagic> I hate gnome 3 (the UI, I mean)
[20:10] <ali1234> there is really no reason for both of them to exist
[20:10] <ali1234> except the gnome and wayland are red hat, and unity and mir are canonical
[20:10] <ali1234> they're really both equally bad in exactly the same ways
[20:11] <ali1234> and the constant fighting between them is kind of annoying, since they both all do the same things they accuse the other of doing
[20:11] <amigamagic> it's not a case that they look similar in many aspects
[20:11] <brainwash> oh, systemd also fits in this category
[20:11] <ali1234> i'm not talking about the visual design
[20:11] <brainwash> bloated piece of software
[20:11] <ali1234> i'm talking about the APIs
[20:11] <ali1234> systemd is almost the exact opposite
[20:11] <brainwash> it is?
[20:12] <ali1234> wayland replaces X which does everything, with a tiny library that can only just run a single piece of software
[20:12] <ali1234> systemd replaces tiny shell scripts with a massive tool that does everything
[20:12] <brainwash> ah
[20:12] <brainwash> wayland as protocol
[20:13] <brainwash> but the implementations are bloated
[20:13] <ali1234> yes, X is a protocol too
[20:13] <brainwash> like gnome
[20:13] <brainwash> with mutter
[20:13] <ali1234> in a sense
[20:13] <ali1234> wayland pushes all responsibilty into the compositor shell, which means that instead of getting rid of the old X code, you've just created multiple different broken re-implementations of it
[20:14] <ali1234> systemd sucks in responsibilities from other programs, so it's at least standardizing things
[20:14] <ali1234> they really are completely opposite in design
[20:16] <brainwash> so, we wait and see what happens :)
[20:16] <ali1234> no, we continue to complain about the lack of standardization in wayland until they fix it
[20:17] <brainwash> why not provide patches?
[20:17] <ali1234> patches have already been provided
[20:17] <ali1234> the last time sometime tried to do something about this, the wayland devs kicked him off the team
[20:18] <brainwash> and then Mir was born? :D
[20:18] <brainwash> mmh
[20:18] <ali1234> no, northfield was created
[20:18] <ali1234> mir has identical design goals to wayland
[20:18] <ali1234> and they also have no interest in standardizing anything
[20:19] <brainwash> northfield already dead?
[20:19] <ali1234> not dead, just resting
[20:19] <ali1234> apparently
[20:19] <ali1234> i spoke to the developer recently
[20:19] <knome> pining for the fjords, eh?
[20:20] <ali1234> well yeah, it's unlikely that northfield will ever take over the world
[20:21] <brainwash> so it's not easy to change/adjust the vision of the main wayland devs
[20:22] <ali1234> well the problem is that they don't want to take on any extra responsibilities
[20:22] <knome> it's not easy to change/adjust the vision of anybody
[20:22] <ali1234> what wayland does, it does well
[20:22] <amigamagic> Sometimes small pieces of software that do small things are better than a monolithic big one that tries to do everything. And you can easily replace the small piece with another one (maybe a better implementation), without break anything.
[20:22] <brainwash> "vision"
[20:22] <ali1234> the problem is it's not enough, and there's no standard way of implementing the extra things that are needed, and this is largely because gnome shell doesn't need them
[20:23] <brainwash> I see
[20:23] <ali1234> and exactly the same applies to mir/unity
[20:24] <amigamagic> ali1234, one of these missing implementations maybe is related to panels (like in gnome2/xfce) ?
[20:24] <ali1234> right, wnck can't work in wayland
[20:24] <ali1234> or mir
[20:25] <ali1234> a program running in wayland cannot know what other programs are running, which means it is impossible to write a panel in wayland
[20:26] <ali1234> wayland also does not support window reparenting at all, so external decorations are impossible
[20:26] <ali1234> and programs cannot position their own windows, which breaks xfdesktop
[20:26] <ali1234> you can implement all these things in the compositor
[20:26] <ali1234> but then your program will only work in one compositor, and it work work in gnome or kde or weston
[20:27] <amigamagic> doesn't cinnamon uses gnome3 ? How they did that?
[20:27] <ali1234> it has nothing to do with gnome 3
[20:28] <ali1234> they run gnome 3 in X11
[20:28] <amigamagic> but they have panels, I think...
[20:28] <ali1234> so these problems do not apply
[20:28] <amigamagic> so you can use gnome3 in X11 too?
[20:28] <ali1234> they will be forced to rewrite their panels when they switch to wayland, just like gnome did
[20:29] <amigamagic> and it's really necessary to switch to wayland?
[20:29] <ali1234> actually cinnamon is a fork of gnome 3, so that has already happened
[20:29] <ali1234> no, it's not necessary to switch at all
[20:36] <amigamagic> so, maybe it would be better to follow the cinnamon way
[21:29] <Unit193> ochosi: http://goo.gl/Gy3XVV
[21:30] <Unit193> knome: Oh right.  It keeps sending me stuff, but I have to login to do something, but I am not aware what password and it doesn't appear to be my own that I need to moderate the list.
[21:30] <knome> yyyah.
[21:30]  * elfy has same issue with the -users list ... 
[21:31] <knome> elfy can prod you with the -devel pass
[21:31] <knome> i don't have it here right now
[21:31] <elfy> except that the -devel pass fails for the -user list :)
[21:31] <knome> yeah, that i don't have anywhere
[21:31] <elfy> oh - Unit193 wants the dev pass?
[21:31] <knome> we most probably want to refresh that
[21:31] <knome> elfy, yep.
[21:32] <knome> what do you think of my proposal then?
[21:32] <elfy> done 
[21:32] <elfy> I've seen no proposal
[21:33] <Unit193> -devel mailing list, a minute ago.
[21:33] <elfy> orite - not seen it yet
[21:33] <elfy> I say I disagree with it ... 
[21:33] <elfy> :p
[21:36] <knome> elfy, great, now please argument ;)
[21:36] <elfy> I'll not - I'll not be able to post my stuff to the -devel list as I need to get people actually talking back to me :)
[21:37] <knome> ;)
[21:37]  * Unit193 doesn't think there's anything important he has to go to any list.
[21:38] <elfy> that's because not enough people in QA send things to the list :p
[21:38] <Unit193> Hey!  I trello'd, what more do you need? ;)
[21:40] <elfy> :)
[21:40] <elfy> to trello on a board I'm subscribed to so I know lol
[21:41] <elfy> or to do one of the checklist things in the only Doing 14.10 card :)
[21:41] <elfy> anyway - I'm off now - cya tomorrow peeps 
[22:39] <ali1234> my only concern about a moderated list is that the moderators will get bored and forget to moderate posts
[22:39] <ali1234> this is basically the situation on ubuntu-devel now
[22:39] <knome> they'll get daily emails about moderating
[22:39] <ali1234> if you're not whitelisted you can't post, and you won't get a rejection either
[22:39] <ali1234> just silence
[22:39] <knome> i think we might be able to set a message for "pending"
[22:39] <knome> if the moderators get bored... well, then the team won't be very active
[22:39] <ali1234> yes, you can
[22:40] <ali1234> ubuntu-devel is *very* active
[22:40] <ali1234> just not the moderators
[23:22] <bluesabre> brainwash: we can possibly include it, but I'd be interested in what regressions it causes