| ikonia | rohan: I've removed the ban for you, apologies, I didn't do it at the time as we continued talking | 00:03 |
|---|---|---|
| IdleOne | awesome, now this can continue on the mailing list and hashed out in a civilized manner | 00:05 |
| IdleOne | please to be leaving the channel now :) | 00:05 |
| rohan | ikonia: thank you. | 00:06 |
| IdleOne | rohan: now would be a great time for you to part this channel. | 00:14 |
| Jordan_U | Is any of that scrollback worth reading? | 00:27 |
| ikonia | no | 00:27 |
| Jordan_U | Great :) | 00:28 |
| ikonia | 5 minutes of actual contnet, 50+ minutes of loop | 00:28 |
| ikonia | hello tigefa | 00:30 |
| rww | !trim =~ s/See/Ubuntu 14.04 activates it by default. For older versions, see/ | 00:45 |
| ubottu | I'll remember that rww | 00:45 |
| ikonia | hello again tigefa | 00:55 |
| ikonia | tigefa: you're sending me ctcp pings so how can we help you ? | 00:59 |
| * hggdh sighs. Seems reading the backlog will be necessary, after all | 02:42 | |
| valorie | huh, I guess I was already subbed to the ubuntu-irc list after all | 02:43 |
| valorie | rather low traffic! | 02:43 |
| valorie | hggdh: my sympathy | 02:44 |
| hggdh | heh | 02:52 |
| hggdh | hum. Wasn't there an email being written to the ML about op abuse, or whatever? I see nothing | 03:03 |
| IdleOne | lol | 03:03 |
| valorie | perhaps he sent to the IRCC? | 03:03 |
| hggdh | OTOH, maybe they are taking some time to cool off. I usually do that when I am mad at some(thing|one). | 03:04 |
| hggdh | valorie: I would have gotten it, then | 03:04 |
| IdleOne | you are surprised that someone said they would email the council and then didn't!? | 03:04 |
| valorie | IdleOne: he argued here for about an hour | 03:05 |
| valorie | seemed like longer.... | 03:05 |
| valorie | sad, because he's usually a good guy | 03:05 |
| valorie | at least in #kubuntu | 03:05 |
| IdleOne | it happens | 03:05 |
| IdleOne | sometimes people get caught up in the argument and forget what they are arguing about | 03:05 |
| valorie | exactly | 03:06 |
| IdleOne | I do it a lot :/ | 03:06 |
| hggdh | IdleOne: it always surprises me. "I will complain with the management!" (like if IRCC was management). Then, poof, gon | 03:06 |
| valorie | heh | 03:06 |
| * hggdh needs a scotch. Complex day, then bad theater ;-) | 03:07 | |
| hggdh | (he *did* go to #u-irc-council, but did not wait long enough. And did that *before* coming in here | 03:08 |
| valorie | ! | 03:09 |
| valorie | interesting | 03:09 |
| valorie | darn it, how do I link to a log of #ubuntu-meeting | 03:10 |
| valorie | nm, found it | 03:11 |
| rohan | ikonia: it's sad you feel the scrollback isn't worth reading :-/ | 03:18 |
| rohan | it's easy to write someone off as a rambling lunatic, rather than understand the point. | 03:18 |
| valorie | no one said you were rambling, or a lunatic | 03:18 |
| rohan | valorie: that is what is implied :) | 03:19 |
| valorie | however, the discussion looped, and got nowhere | 03:19 |
| valorie | no | 03:19 |
| rohan | valorie: from my perspective, it was because no one wanted to see the point i was getting at. | 03:19 |
| valorie | I heard your point, and even understand your POV | 03:19 |
| rohan | which is easy to do, i understand -- as an op you have different point of view to a normal user | 03:20 |
| valorie | however, you *never listened* to what was needed for a healthy channel | 03:20 |
| valorie | in most channels I'm in, I'm not an op | 03:20 |
| rohan | unfortunately, to put it plainly, what happeend in #ubuntu felt like something that happens in an elitist community | 03:20 |
| rohan | valorie: i'm not singling you out :) | 03:20 |
| valorie | most of us have that same experience, rohan | 03:20 |
| rohan | eventually, the email to the list never happened because it doesn't feel like anyone is actually ready to listen with an open mind about op abuse | 03:21 |
| rohan | hggdh: ^^ to answer your question | 03:21 |
| rohan | if it's just going to be people on this channel, it's not going to be that much different | 03:22 |
| rohan | valorie: same experience where? | 03:23 |
| valorie | the same experience of just being chan members | 03:23 |
| rohan | the act of de-voicing someone is downright hostile! especially someone new to the community | 03:24 |
| valorie | the reason we got here as ops is helping out in channel, repeatedly | 03:24 |
| rohan | as is the act of banning someone who is having discussion in a separate channel | 03:24 |
| valorie | gah! | 03:24 |
| rohan | valorie: did you get a chance to check the scrollback of #ubuntu and see why the guy was de-voiced? | 03:25 |
| valorie | no, I'm not in that channel | 03:25 |
| valorie | too big, too busy | 03:25 |
| valorie | certainly too busy for joking | 03:26 |
| rohan | valorie: which is even more of a reason why ops should be more courteous and not so trigger-happy | 03:26 |
| valorie | rohan: i wish we were doing this face to face, over a beer | 03:26 |
| valorie | or a coffee | 03:26 |
| IdleOne | rohan: the IRCC are also ops in the ubuntu namespace, but if you take the time to send an email and explain your concerns they will take it seriously. If your goal is to just scream and yell chances are it will be ignored. This right now seems to me like you are just looking for a reason to complain. | 03:27 |
| rohan | IdleOne: i'm already aware of the stereotype you think i am. reiterating that, instead of trying to understand my point, is neither here nor there | 03:27 |
| IdleOne | I'm not saying you are right or wrong about what you are concerned about. I just think that rehashing it here is not going to help any | 03:28 |
| IdleOne | rohan: what stereotype is it you think I think you are? | 03:28 |
| rohan | IdleOne: an email would not be much different from this scrollback: when asked, someone would just say "it's not worth reading" and things will be where they are | 03:29 |
| IdleOne | one person said that | 03:29 |
| IdleOne | I am saying that you should email the ircc | 03:29 |
| IdleOne | I think your concerns are valid and worth being brought to the council | 03:29 |
| rohan | i am saying that from the interaction and the attitude around here, that's just more of banging my head against the wall | 03:30 |
| tsimpson | rohan: an email is infinitely easier to read than hours of scrollback from multiple channels, it allows you to set out your points clearly and for others to address them | 03:30 |
| tsimpson | if you have a problem with the way things are done, which it seems you do, please do consider writing an email | 03:30 |
| IdleOne | and you can easily link to the relevant logs of those channels | 03:30 |
| hggdh | rohan: really? Since you did not send the email, you will not be able to find out. So far, although I think you had some merit on your points, you attitude sort of blows it out | 03:30 |
| rohan | hggdh: really. want to read the part where CarlFK tells me to go get a life.. or where ikonia calls me pathetic? | 03:32 |
| rohan | hggdh: in part, replies like yours are exactly the reason i don't feel inclined to send an email: after a certain point, people here are just bucketizing the whole conversation into an attitude problem i have and thus not worth listening to. | 03:33 |
| IdleOne | Is your goal to get someone "punished" no matter who? We don't punish people here. We are all intelligent people and we can admit when we make mistakes (sometimes it takes longer for some to do so) | 03:33 |
| rohan | IdleOne: is your goal to allow normal users to then get punished (ban for a week)? | 03:34 |
| IdleOne | So you have 3-4 people here now who have told you that we all think you have valid concerns. We all would like you to express those concerns calmly and clearly. An email would allow you to take the time to do that. | 03:35 |
| valorie | banning is not punishment | 03:35 |
| valorie | ops don't hand out punishment | 03:35 |
| valorie | those who do would soon be gone | 03:36 |
| hggdh | rohan: please do expose -- in an email -- your points. Stick to the facts. Do not enter in *any* discussion about the ability, capability, integrity, or whatever of *ANY* person in an IRC channel. EVEN if you think they deserve whatever it is they might deserve. Tone down. I will be happy to discuss it with you and any other involved. | 03:38 |
| hggdh | BUT -- the way things are said matter. | 03:40 |
| hggdh | rohan: one more thing. We, here, know the channel is logged. | 03:41 |
| rohan | valorie: banning for a week without any kind of provocation, devoicing for a provocation, banning for a joke -- they all sound like punishments, unfortunately | 03:44 |
| rohan | hggdh: i don't see you telling any of your ops buddies to tone down. i don't see you telling anyone else to stop discussing the list of things you gave. | 03:44 |
| rohan | hggdh: i know you know the channel is logged -- what is your point? | 03:45 |
| IdleOne | you didn't see it so it didn't happen? | 03:45 |
| * hggdh ill wait for the email. Nothing more to be gained on this discussion. | 03:46 | |
| IdleOne | Again it looks like you are wanting some sort of public flogging for the ops you think did something wrong | 03:46 |
| IdleOne | Tell your side to the IRCC, the ops will tell theirs and if/when behavioral adjustments need to be made they will. | 03:48 |
| hggdh | rohan: now, if you are done, please leave this channel | 03:51 |
| rohan | hggdh: no, i am not. | 03:52 |
| rww | oh for crying out loud | 03:52 |
| rohan | IdleOne: there has to be some kind of a process for ops who think it's ok to ban people willy-nilly. there is none. i don't care about flogging -- i don't even know the guy, i am not going to jump in glee whether or not anything happens | 03:53 |
| rww | rohan: If you have issues to discuss with Ubuntu's core ops in general (e.g. suggestions for improvement), please email ubuntu-irc@lists.ubuntu.com. If you'd like to complain about a particular operator or group of them, please contact the IRCC. | 03:53 |
| rww | Talking in this channel is clearly not getting you anywhere, so let's not. | 03:53 |
| IdleOne | rohan: the process is to email the IRCC and explain your concerns | 03:53 |
| rohan | IdleOne: flogging is a harsh word, but if you must use it, what k1l_ did was no less than flogging | 03:53 |
| rohan | rww: point taken. | 03:54 |
| IdleOne | rohan: I agree flogging is a harsh word. I used it for dramatic effect | 03:54 |
| rww | rohan: Thank you. Have a nice evening, and I hope things go better over email. | 03:54 |
| hggdh | rohan: IRCC's email: irc-council@lists.ubuntu.com | 03:55 |
| hggdh | rohan: IRCC email is only accessible by the IRCC members. | 03:55 |
| rohan | rww: i can tell you now if this is representative of the attitude, it is not | 03:56 |
| rohan | rww: thanks for your wishes though | 03:56 |
| CarlFK | rohan: there is an appeals process for people who want a ban lifted. There are places to discuss changing the guidelines. There are places to report ops that you feel need reporting. | 04:02 |
| CarlFK | rohan: debating it here is not the place. | 04:02 |
| rww | I think we all know that, and continuing this conversation isn't going to make it more productive. | 04:02 |
| rohan | like hggdh said, even if i did have a point, there has been too much bitterness for it to now make any difference | 04:04 |
| rohan | eventually, the person who i feel was wrong (adam something or the other) is not even around and probably doesn't care, neither does k1l_ | 04:04 |
| tsimpson | rohan: that's why I suggested email to begin with, it'll be much easier for you to raise your issues and for everyone to have a debate about it | 04:07 |
| tsimpson | much easier than on IRC here | 04:07 |
| rohan | tsimpson: look at the general attitude around here, do you think anyone would really be encouraged to send an email? | 04:08 |
| tsimpson | rohan: then bring that up too | 04:08 |
| tsimpson | rohan: you have a choice here. you can either just accept what happened and move on with your life, or you can try sending an email and see where that goes. it's up to you which you do, but I'm asking you to go the email route personally | 04:10 |
| rohan | tsimpson: i agree. | 04:10 |
| rohan | to anyone who feels wronged by me -- i apologise! | 04:11 |
| === rww is now known as Arstotzka | ||
| === Arstotzka is now known as rww | ||
| ikonia | and trying to make an issue out of anything | 07:28 |
| ikonia | hi to rohan reading the logs | 07:28 |
| ikonia | I look forward to reading your email | 07:28 |
| bazhang | heh | 07:28 |
| ikonia | does ubottu not prompt for a comment/duration on mutes only bans ? | 08:01 |
| bazhang | depends on how well it's working. I sometimes get prompted for /remove's even | 08:01 |
| ikonia | ok, so maybe just a glitch | 08:02 |
| bazhang | yes, for sure | 08:02 |
| ikonia | I'll set it manually and dig out the id, just wondered on the logic | 08:02 |
| Flannel | mutes should never last long enough to need a duration. | 08:02 |
| ikonia | hit and run homophobe, was just going to put a couple of hour duration on in case he came back | 08:02 |
| Flannel | (I've never been asked about mutes) | 08:02 |
| ikonia | wanted to put on a duration incase it was forgot about | 08:03 |
| ikonia | didn't want it to linger there | 08:03 |
| ikonia | guy logged off as soon as I messaged him to ask him not to do it | 08:04 |
| ikonia | a durtion seems a reasonable step rather than possibly forgetting about it ? | 08:04 |
| ikonia | or have missunderstood what you said | 08:05 |
| bazhang | or have the bot set an auto duration of a certain time | 08:05 |
| ikonia | yes, that's what I was doing | 08:05 |
| ikonia | putting a duration on so it auto removed | 08:05 |
| ikonia | an hour, two tops | 08:05 |
| bazhang | not sure if ubot has that feature | 08:05 |
| ikonia | yeah it does | 08:06 |
| ikonia | you can use @duration against any id | 08:06 |
| bazhang | eir default +b is 24h, ubot should have something similar available | 08:06 |
| ikonia | I believe it treats a mute the same as a ban | 08:06 |
| ikonia | it does have a default I think | 08:06 |
| ikonia | but I didn't want it that long | 08:06 |
| bazhang | ok | 08:06 |
| ikonia | just thought a duration of 1h seemed a quick / simple way | 08:06 |
| bazhang | so having the @duration makes sense | 08:07 |
| ikonia | thats what I thought, but I just wondered if I was doing it wrong based on what Flannel says, but I miss-read and see the point he's making | 08:07 |
| bazhang | he meant super short duration | 08:08 |
| ikonia | well, that was the plan | 08:08 |
| bazhang | for carswell | 08:08 |
| ikonia | if he'd stuck around rather than hit and run | 08:08 |
| bazhang | he does taht now and again | 08:08 |
| ikonia | yeah thats the chap | 08:08 |
| ikonia | ooh really so he's known | 08:08 |
| ikonia | ahh seems like it was worth putting a duration of an hour on in case he came back | 08:09 |
| Pricey | Christ... is there any way rohan could have come out of that discussion well? | 08:15 |
| bazhang | with christ? | 08:15 |
| ikonia | Pricey: I thought he was going to, after he stopped swearing, he clamed down and actually had a reasonable discussion | 08:15 |
| ikonia | but then went on a witch hunt again, and it sort of lost traction | 08:15 |
| Pricey | ikonia: Sorry no I wasn't criticising him, I was pissed off at you lot. | 08:16 |
| ikonia | fair enoug | 08:16 |
| ikonia | enough | 08:16 |
| Pricey | k1l_: Banning him in #ubuntu after he followed your instructions and came here to complain was a bit of a dick move imo. | 08:18 |
| Pricey | I don't see how a week long ban would ever help anyone in that situation... it's solely a punishment? | 08:20 |
| ikonia | Pricey: it was removed | 08:20 |
| ikonia | we talked about it and agreed it was rash | 08:20 |
| ikonia | hence why I removed it | 08:20 |
| ikonia | it just got a bit heated due to how strong he approached it | 08:20 |
| ikonia | bad calls happen, | 08:20 |
| Pricey | The only problem with that situation was "how strong he approached it"? | 08:20 |
| Pricey | Absolutely none of the blame on anyone else for the escalation? :-/ | 08:20 |
| ikonia | I wasn't following the conversation until k1l_ banned him | 08:20 |
| ikonia | as the swearing hilight triggered me | 08:20 |
| ikonia | I think the whole thing was heated and escalated | 08:20 |
| Pricey | And that's *our* fault. | 08:20 |
| ikonia | I think both had a fair part to play | 08:21 |
| ikonia | it didn't need to be heated and was | 08:21 |
| ikonia | hence why I wanted to remove the ban from him and get him to a happier state | 08:21 |
| ikonia | to be honest, the whole thing appeared to be a staged issue for of condraticitions | 08:28 |
| ikonia | where someone comes in with nazi comments and then says "its ok" | 08:28 |
| bazhang | thats a first for IRC | 08:28 |
| ikonia | then he says he's been in ubuntu for ages | 08:28 |
| ikonia | then he says he's knew to the community | 08:28 |
| ikonia | I think there are some valid points and things can be done better, but I don't think abuse towards the team members for a bad call should be tollerated, nor do I think a witch hunt is needed | 08:29 |
| Pricey | I'd hardly call what I've read from him "abuse"... | 08:29 |
| ikonia | really, you don't mind having nazi references and being called names ? | 08:29 |
| bazhang | removing from ops? seriously? | 08:29 |
| ikonia | Pricey: perhaps you should become more active again if possible | 08:30 |
| ikonia | act as a refresher | 08:30 |
| valorie | Pricey: I've talked with him for months, and he's been fine | 08:30 |
| bazhang | take the steering wheel | 08:30 |
| valorie | today he was on a tear | 08:30 |
| Pricey | valorie: rohan? | 08:30 |
| valorie | yes | 08:30 |
| valorie | he's been in #kubuntu for months | 08:31 |
| ikonia | he also said he'd been in #ubuntu for years | 08:31 |
| valorie | I noticed the nick because I have a friend named rohan | 08:31 |
| ikonia | maybe that's just a communication missunderstanding | 08:31 |
| bazhang | ikonia, he said he was new, I thought | 08:31 |
| ikonia | ahh sorry, hesaid ages | 08:31 |
| ikonia | not years | 08:31 |
| ikonia | 22:52 < rohan> i have been on #ubuntu for ages, and a year or so back, the channel was not this uptight | 08:31 |
| ikonia | possibly just wording/langage error, | 08:32 |
| Pricey | ikonia: Nice. | 08:33 |
| ikonia | ? | 08:33 |
| ikonia | nice | 08:33 |
| ikonia | what do you mean ? | 08:33 |
| valorie | sorry, must part - late here | 08:34 |
| bazhang | bye valorie | 08:34 |
| ikonia | Pricey: sorry didn't hilight, what do you mean | 08:37 |
| bazhang | <ainx> but i mean ubuntugnome is a new desktop basic from ubuntu, and it's wrong ? | 08:44 |
| bazhang | if ubuntu is in the name, how can it be wrong??? | 08:44 |
| k1l_ | Pricey: Pricey the users only contribution to #ubuntu was remarks against ops and insult of another user, then coming here (after the hint from ikonia) and instead of discussing in a civil manner he starts with comparing my action to hitlers blitzkrieg and calling me dictator and other offences and insults. i still dont think that behaviour is in any way matching the guidelines or Code of Conduct and i thought he will stirr up trouble in #ubuntu again. (li | 09:03 |
| Pricey | k1l_: chopped off after '#ubuntu again.' | 09:04 |
| k1l_ | in #ubuntu again. (like he did just before he came in here) | 09:04 |
| Pricey | k1l_: http://scripts.irssi.org/scripts/splitlong.pl ftw | 09:05 |
| k1l_ | thx, usually i dont do that long posts outside forums or mails :) | 09:06 |
| elky | your bar for "stir up trouble" is uncomfortably low | 09:29 |
| k1l_ | elky: it was a heavy action from my side. but the user was that aggressive and offencive that i did no think he would stick to the guidelines and CoC in #ubuntu too. | 09:45 |
| k1l | <junka> 12.10 is no longer supported, you should fix da topic :D | 11:39 |
| k1l | can someone confirm? i failed last time i changed 12.10 to unsupported and will try not to make a mess this time | 11:39 |
| jussi | k1l: EOL is today, according to: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases | 11:40 |
| k1l | ok, so better wait for tomorrow :) | 11:42 |
| jussi | :) | 11:43 |
| elky | it's kinda confusing having a release eol every few months when the releases are 6mo apart | 12:06 |
| elky | but also, it is may 16 on the future hemisphere | 12:07 |
| jussi | elky: yeah, can get that way, but its a small issue I think | 12:13 |
| elky | at least my vps won't eol while i'm in between countries this time | 12:13 |
| elky | i've got like 6 weeks after to upgrade it! | 12:14 |
| cprofitt | hello all... | 12:38 |
| cprofitt | sent a reply to the list -- asking for reflection... | 12:38 |
| cprofitt | gotta run to a meeting right now, but will be back soon if there is a need to discuss. | 12:38 |
| phunyguy | elky: yeah, these last few were weird because of the change from 18mo to 9mo support cycle. | 13:14 |
| === nik0 is now known as niko | ||
| ubottu | qin_ called the ops in #ubuntu (ConnextionEval) | 16:26 |
| User346 | stu "d!ckless" lantz betrays all; trannys & queers(chaste Homos/a$$holes), rule | 16:39 |
| === tigefa is now known as Guest5341 | ||
| ikonia | hello again tigefa | 18:45 |
| ikonia | !id | tigefa | 18:49 |
| ubottu | tigefa: join ke #ubuntu-id untuk membahas ubuntu dalam bahasa Indonesia | 18:49 |
| genii | I was sooooo tempted to do something like <cough>"RTFM"<cough> in -ot | 19:41 |
| Jordan_U | ikonia: That last comment was really not a great way to de-escalate a situation. | 20:09 |
| ikonia | Jordan_U: I know | 20:09 |
| ikonia | hello Guest69859 | 20:35 |
| ikonia | bye Guest69859 | 20:38 |
| ikonia | @mark #kubuntu jParkton terrible attitude, lies about help information | 21:14 |
| ubottu | The operation succeeded. | 21:14 |
| sarnold | hello, Godzilla1954III looks like he's about to become annoying in #ubuntu-server -- he was around and laughing the othe day when another nick was being a royal pain.. | 22:44 |
| Unit193 | cloudman doesn't help matters. | 22:51 |
| sarnold | yeah. unless you can swing a /kill or a /kickban, it doesn't usually help much to say anything. | 22:53 |
| Unit193 | Depends on the person, I'll wait a minute and then I can just check irclogs.u.com | 22:56 |
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