[00:36] <AskUbuntu> Ubuntu Mobiles & Tablets in Australia? | http://askubuntu.com/q/469392
[02:46] <Dandreaa> Heyy
[02:47] <Dandreaa> Can I just flash Ubuntu touch through two?
[02:47] <Dandreaa> Twrp
[04:27] <Macer> i sure wish i could install it on my surface rt :D
[04:27] <Macer> someone figure out how i can do that hehe
[04:39] <RAOF> First job: Break the bootloader.
[05:38] <AskUbuntu> Can I sumbit under development apps to Ubuntu Touch App Store? | http://askubuntu.com/q/469454
[05:40] <verdeP> wtf.. bzoltan I have 30 plus nicks listed for you xD o.o
[05:41] <bzoltan> verdeP: wow... I am a lot
[05:41] <verdeP> lol yeah xD or you share your IP idk
[05:42] <bzoltan> verdeP: I did not do anything ... just open my laptop
[05:42] <verdeP> ah lol okay
[06:18] <Macer> RAOF: i don't even know how to get into the surface bootloader heh
[06:18] <RAOF> Macer: You don't. At least not you, the user.
[06:19] <nhaines> I'm writing a magazine article where I mention Ubuntu and the future.  I'd like to get an example of the new header design to submit with the article.  I'm running Utopic r28.  Anyone have any suggestions?
[06:22] <Macer> RAOF: i'm pretty sure the entire device is locked down beyond possibility
[06:22] <Macer> i'm still waiting on a nexus 4 so i can install touch
[06:23] <RAOF> It's probably possible to crack, but I'm not sure if anyone's done so yet.
[06:23] <Macer> i have found myself using the ubuntu laptop more than anything else lately. especially since i was able to sync everything into thunderbird with outlook.com
[06:24] <Macer> but then again. if ubuntu touch winds up being worthwhile i'll just run localized servers and probably ditch the online services altogether
[06:24] <Macer> even tho i'm stuck with ms for my xbox one
[06:24] <Macer> i just hope someone puts out an email app with pgp support or s/mime support
[06:25] <Macer> i think ms just now started pushing out s/mime support in emails but i'm sure it uses some awful MS method of doing it
[06:28] <nhaines> Just one repeat.  I'm writing a magazine article where I mention Ubuntu and the future.  I'd like to get an example of the new header design to submit with the article.  I'm running Utopic r28.  Anyone have any suggestions?
[06:39] <RAOF> nhaines: Might be good to repeat that once more in 3 hours or so; Malta & the UK should have woken up by then :)
[06:39] <nhaines> RAOF: That's helpful, but not tonight because my submission deadline is before then.  I'll just submit the images I have.
[06:40] <nhaines> Unfortunately, I thought I *did* have an image of a new style header.  :)
[06:40] <nhaines> The article mentions the new scopes design is a kind of sneak peek, so at least I have an image of that.
[06:40] <RAOF> Ah. I can see how that would be kinda awkward ☺
[06:41] <nhaines> Yup.  But there's also always a chance that I can replace an image later.  Not sure, I was asked to do the article on pretty short notice, so they might be going to press fast.  :)
[07:36] <Macer> i still don't understand what frequencies t-mobile uses
[07:42] <nhaines> Macer: T-Mobile uses many different bands in different countries around the world.
[07:52] <Macer> In September 2013, an Intel developer removed XMir support from their video driver and wrote "We do not condone or support Canonical in the course of action they have chosen, and will not carry XMir patches upstream".
[07:52] <Macer> nhaines: sorry. T-Mobile US
[07:53] <Macer> i know they had some awkward 1700MHz frequency
[07:53] <Macer> but when looking at the supported frequencies for a phone i don't really know which one i should be choosing to make sure without a doubt it works with t-mobile 4G or even lte
[07:53] <Macer> i need to figure this out and make a datasheet or something heh
[07:54] <Macer> this Mir thing Canonical is doing seems to have gotten the community panties in a bunch
[07:55] <nhaines> Macer: I grabbed a Nexus 5 mainly so I'd never have to worry about it.  :)
[07:55] <Macer> you really can't blame them tho. most community projects seem to take 10x as long and they were probably stuck struggling over minor things for months trying to determine a set path for it
[07:56] <Macer> nhaines: well a nexus 4 seems to support all the bands as well heh
[07:56] <nhaines> Probably.  I don't have one.  :)
[07:56] <Macer> i just ebayed a nexus 4 to try out ubuntu touch on a phone to see how it goes
[07:56]  * Macer points at hurd, wayland, and btrfs as prime examples of this
[07:56] <nhaines> The only voices who count in the Mir/Wayland debate are Mir or Wayland developers.  Who are biased anyway.
[07:56] <Macer> nhaines: yeah seems so
[07:57] <nhaines> Maybe X developers.
[07:57] <Macer> they sure have quite the spat
[07:57] <Macer> x devs are awesome but i mean .. i'm sure they knew it had to go away eventually
[07:57] <Macer> it has become inefficient with most of the calls being handled by the kernel nowadays anyways
[07:57] <nhaines> "I'm mad because you're not doing what I want you to" has never been too compelling to me.
[07:57] <Macer> haha
[07:58] <Macer> well. that type of thing is probably a major reason there are forks of forks of forks
[07:58] <nhaines> X isn't inefficient because of the Kernel Mode Switching.  It's because X is from 1983 and everyone uses third-party libraries for everything now anyway.
[07:58] <Macer> yah lol
[07:58] <nhaines> Yes, but in the Free Software world it's those that do the work that end up winning.
[07:58] <Macer> i mean it had a great run and they did absolutely amazing things with it but nowadays it's like using motif to make KDE
[07:59] <Macer> nhaines: i agree
[07:59] <nhaines> It doesn't really matter whether Andrew S. Tanenbaum (MINIX) or Linus Torvalds (Linux) was right about microkernels versus monolithic kernels.  Linux won.  :)
[07:59] <Macer> i mean as far as consumers go it is tangible results that gain the most notice
[07:59] <Macer> lol
[07:59] <nhaines> (Of course, MINIX is just trying to be a simple, easy to understand kernel to be used to teach a class.)
[07:59] <Macer> i think the hurd devs are still arguing about that
[08:00] <Macer> been about 15 years so far
[08:00] <Macer> still waiting on it to be as good as linux or even fbsd :)
[08:00] <nhaines> It's a fantastic thing for Hurd development to proceed to.  What fun that must be!  I might just study MINIX next year myself.  :)
[08:00] <nhaines> But being "right" isn't a guarantee of success.
[08:01] <Macer> yeah but the main issue is there seems to be no need for a new opened kernel
[08:01] <Macer> you already have two mature developed ones to build off of
[08:01] <nhaines> There might be, if the kernels do things differently.
[08:01] <nhaines> And there's only one way to find out really.  :)
[08:01] <Macer> haha.. yeah well. i suppose.
[08:02] <nhaines> Besides, things can be worthwhile just for the fun of doing them.
[08:02] <Macer> but right now it seems that ubuntu is leading the charge in the expansion of a linux distribution
[08:02] <Macer> at least as far as the consumer is concerned
[08:02] <nhaines> They're pushing hard on the desktop, the phone, and the cloud.  They're doing things no one else is.
[08:02] <Macer> it seems to have a steady single direction... this is an area where a community hinders progresss
[08:02] <nhaines> I personally find Unity to be the best desktop I've ever used.
[08:03] <Macer> it's decent. i mean ... they all have their pluses and minuses
[08:04] <Macer> the mobile part tho. that will be interesting
[08:04] <Macer> especially if ubuntu can manage to make itself an alternative on existing devices like it has done with the nexus 4
[08:04] <Macer> this is something i begged the maemo devs to do  when they were working on the cssu
[08:04] <nhaines> Unity on mobile isn't perfect, but it's really, really pleasant.
[08:05] <Macer> because without newer hardware you eventually die
[08:05] <Macer> no mobile experience is perfect
[08:05] <nhaines> But Ubuntu's not trying to be an alternative on existing devices.
[08:05] <Macer> nhaines: well it should be.. i understand they are also making their own hw
[08:05] <nhaines> I highly suspect that once we get shipping Ubuntu devices, Canonical will drop all Nexus development.
[08:05] <nhaines> It absolutely shouldn't be.
[08:05] <Macer> but an alternative option on pre-existing devices only helps
[08:05] <nhaines> Unfortunately, every phone model is entirely different.
[08:06] <nhaines> It's a massive waste of development time.
[08:06] <Macer> i don't think so. especially if you run into manufacturers who wish to make that an option
[08:06] <nhaines> I could seem them picking one Nexus phone and one tablet just to keep a reference Android platform.  But the goal's always been to have dedicated devices.
[08:06] <Macer> when trying to wedge into pre-existing established eco-systems.. more is better regardless of how it is done ;)
[08:07] <nhaines> I don't doubt it'd be useful.  But every single phone is entirely different hardware wise, porting is *extremely* hard, and Canonical has missed pretty much every single deadline they've ever announced.
[08:07] <Macer> lol
[08:08] <Macer> yeah i guess that's true .. but like i said. if they had manufacturer support then that would be cool
[08:08] <nhaines> So I think they're going to continue to focus their development in a way that's going to help them get the OS running.
[08:08] <Macer> i mean if say samsung decides to hand them devs....
[08:08] <nhaines> "Manufacturer support" means the OEM does the port themselves.
[08:08] <Macer> sure but in a lot of instances the oem has contributed a lot to the base code as well
[08:09] <nhaines> I don't know of any such instances.
[08:09] <nhaines> Besides, the base code is pretty self-contained.
[08:09] <Macer> oracle with btrfs ?
[08:09] <Macer> ;)
[08:09] <Macer> until they ruined the world by buying sun
[08:10] <Macer> not really the same type of scenario but still similar
[08:10] <Macer> i'm sure samsung has contributed SOMETHING to android
[08:10] <nhaines> Only drivers, I'm sure.
[08:10] <nhaines> Most of which aren't redistributable.
[08:11] <nhaines> Samsung's spent most of their time rewriting the Android shell.
[08:13] <Macer> well there is something that samsung can bring to them
[08:13] <Macer> investment money :)
[08:14] <nhaines> They don't do that either.  :)
[08:14] <Macer> lol
[08:15] <Macer> well.. there is one good thing about ubuntu
[08:15] <Macer> it's going up against mobile operating systems which have gotten a bit stale
[08:15] <Macer> ios and android haven't really done much fresh in the past 3 years or so
[08:16] <Macer> other than gimmicky type things like a thumb reader or ui enhancements
[08:16] <nhaines> Haven't used Android 4.3 then?
[08:16] <Macer> and they have fallen far from their peak interest when they first came out
[08:17] <Macer> no i have. i mean there really isn't much that screams this is fresh and new to me tho
[08:17] <nhaines> It's night and day from 4.0.
[08:17] <nhaines> Besides, when they first came out, iPhones and Android phones were both rare. Now they're practically all you can buy.  So I don't think they've fallen from their peak either.  :)
[08:18] <Macer> i said peak interest
[08:18] <Macer> if ubuntu touch came out in 2007 it wouldn't have had a chance in hell ;)
[08:18] <nhaines> I think the fact that people are only buying Androids or iPhones proves that interest has only been growing.
[08:18] <nhaines> Besides, OSes aren't supposed to be exciting.  They're supposed to get out of the way.  It's apps that should be exciting.
[08:19] <Macer> no it just means prices have been dropping and availability has increased as well as population and new consumers coming of age
[08:19] <Macer> not to mention that a lot of iphones are sold in pkg deals
[08:19] <Macer> as are android phones
[08:20] <Macer> nhaines: sure.. but a new look and feel is always pleasant as well... people like fresh things
[08:20] <Macer> and the os' ui dictates that to its apps
[08:20] <nhaines> Oh no they don't.
[08:20] <Macer> haha... tell that to people who thought the gaudy new golden iphone was awesome :D
[08:21] <Macer> but then again
[08:21] <Macer> it has to be fresh and new.... and functional
[08:21] <nhaines> Everyone hated OS X, everyone hated Windows Vista, everyone hated Windows 8, everyone hated GNOME 3, everyone hated KDE 4, everyone hated Unity...
[08:21] <nhaines> No one likes fresh things.  :)
[08:21]  * Macer points at windows 8 hehe
[08:21] <Macer> i liked kde 4
[08:22] <nhaines> Windows 8 works fantastically.
[08:22] <Macer> people have a valid bripe against vista and windows 8 tho :)
[08:22] <Macer> yeah i thought so too
[08:22] <Macer> well.. it works great on a touch screen
[08:22] <Macer> the big problem with win8 was the overabundance of legacy desktops and laptops
[08:22] <nhaines> No one has a valid gripe against Windows 8.  They made the Start Menu full-screen.  That's practically the only difference.
[08:22] <nhaines> I'm using it on a legacy laptop.  Works fine.
[08:22] <Macer> i mean the metro apps
[08:23] <nhaines> Me too.
[08:23] <Macer> it doesn't feel natural pointing and clicking around them
[08:23] <nhaines> Sure it does.  They're good for Netflix and Hulu and tablety things.
[08:23] <Macer> nor does it feel natural roaming the mouse all over the place just to grab a charm
[08:23] <Macer> but on a touch screen it's awesome
[08:23] <nhaines> You throw the mouse at a corner and move down.  Charms are as simple as the Unity Launcher.
[08:23] <Macer> i have a surface rt. i don't have any complaints about it
[08:24] <nhaines> Although the left side to switch apps does annoy me.  :P
[08:24] <Macer> nhaines: i didn't say it was difficult.. i just said it felt unnatural
[08:24] <nhaines> And I disagree.
[08:24] <Macer> to each their own. i couldn't stand win8 on a legacy desktop
[08:24] <Macer> i wound up just doing what everybody else did.. get some fake start menu and turn it into something tha twas as close to win7 as possible
[08:25] <nhaines> The only thing I use charms for on a legacy desktop is to shut down, where it's far more convenient than ever before.
[08:25] <Macer> and completely bypass metro altogether
[08:25] <Macer> and i went into it big.. surface rt, windows phone, xbox one
[08:25] <Macer> i think the metro interface is good on those devices
[08:25] <Macer> on a legacy pc it is incredibly annoying
[08:26] <Macer> especially the way that you no longer have windows so much as you have split screen panes
[08:26] <nhaines> It can't really be annoying.  It's only meant for fullscreen apps.
[08:26] <Macer> if they ever lose the old desktop they need to rename it to Microsoft Panes
[08:26] <nhaines> And if you're not running those... well...
[08:26] <nhaines> Although the Windows 8.1 interface update does make things look a lot more traditional.
[08:26] <Macer> well to be honest... on the rt... i almost never use the desktop
[08:27] <Macer> i use it for office and that's it
[08:27] <Macer> the rest i use metro stuff and it's great
[08:27] <nhaines> I think Ubuntu's software convergence is going to far more compelling if they manage to pull it off.
[08:27] <Macer> on my desktop (when i actually used win8 on it) ... .i was considering just going out and getting a touchscreen monitor lol
[08:28] <Macer> sure. especially if that docking cradle works well ;)
[08:28] <Macer> to be honest.. the typical consumer (minus hard core gamer) should have been using arm based small profile desktops for years
[08:28] <Macer> heh
[08:29] <Macer> like 70% of the general population isn't editing video and music or playing games that require 8 video cards
[08:30] <nhaines> We'll just have to see how things go.  I'm not sure a standalone phone will drive as much Ubuntu adoption as I think Canonical is hoping.  But maybe if it's popular enough and brings in money it doesn't matter.
[08:30] <Macer> well i said this earlier. the big problem is when it gets bad reviews because joe user tries to use one and blogs that it totally sucks because it doesn't do everything an android phone can do heh
[08:31] <nhaines> I doubt it.  They're selling to geeks first.  I think that's probably the best way to do it.
[08:31] <Macer> which is probably why it's a good thing you have to use a nexus now
[08:31] <Macer> yeah but how can you gauge geekness? there's levels to these things
[08:31] <Macer> lots of "geeks" are just hipsters :)
[08:31] <nhaines> If you're willing to go online and buy a non-subsidized phone from a website without seeing it in stores, you qualify.
[08:32] <Macer> i don't know about that. some people just want things to have things because they want to be the first to have one
[08:32] <Macer> without knowing what they're getting into
[08:32] <Macer> * see children as an example :D
[08:33] <Macer> they'll get sucked up faster than they can be produced... then get sold on ebay for $2000
[08:34] <nhaines> I donno about that.  The Edge didn't sell either.
[08:34] <Macer> then get a bunch of bad reviews because someone couldn't find flappy bird
[08:34] <Macer> the edge was never produced ;)
[08:34] <nhaines> Because it didn't sell.
[08:34] <Macer> if it's tangible it will sell heh
[08:35] <nhaines> I suppose we'll see.
[08:35] <nhaines> Anyway, my article's written and submitted, and I've been writing all day so it's time to find some alcohol, put on Netflix, and then go to sleep!
[08:35] <Macer> yah. we sound like two guys determining how the upcoming nba trades will go heh
[08:35] <Macer> have a good night
[08:35] <nhaines> It was fun though.  :)
[08:35] <nhaines> Thanks, and you too!
[08:57] <henno> hi there. i have a lg google nexus 4 and i tested 14.10 from the developer tree. is there a recommendation which version to install when you want it as stable and fancy as possible?
[08:58] <ogra_> use --channel ubuntu-touch/devel for ubuntu-device-flash ...
[08:58] <ogra_> these are the latest images that got QA testing ... they still have bugs but not as severe that you cant use the phone as a daily driver
[09:00] <ogra_> if you want the very latest you can use ubuntu-touch/devel-proposed ... that has the latest and greatest bugs and code ... and can be non-functional at times
[09:01] <henno> does hannel ubuntu-touch/devel also rely on 14.10?
[09:01] <henno> channel
[09:01] <ogra_> yes
[09:02] <henno> there are other versions as well aren't they?
[09:02] <henno> like 13.10
[09:02] <ogra_> this is what most people use for daily dogfooding the system
[09:03] <ogra_> well, given that we have no final release yet going backwards in releases just means that you will have less features ... but yeah, we have a 13.10 image somewhere (i wouldnt recommend using it)
[09:03] <henno> i have one big problem using the version from the proposed channel .. phone callers complain about bad audio quality.. is this already known?
[09:04] <ogra_> the devel image we have today will be the base for the two phones that will go to market in the second half of the year
[09:04] <ogra_> so this one gety the most attention regarding fixes and quality
[09:05] <henno> so is there a version which is known working nicely on my google nexus 4?
[09:05] <ogra_> i heard someone complain about that before, funnily it work just fine here
[09:05] <ogra_> davmor2, popey, do we have a bug open for "bad audio quality during calls" ?
[09:06] <ogra_> henno, well, the devel channel is the best you can try atm.
[09:06] <popey> davmor2: how do you mean?
[09:06] <henno> maybe different revisions of hardware of the nexus4?
[09:06] <henno> ok - i will try the devel channel then at first.
[09:07] <ogra_> no, i dont think there are many different revisions ... i know the case got an update once (with little rubber knobs on the back so it doesnt slide off the table all the time) but i dont think the silicon was changed
[09:09] <henno> i have an image installed from the proposed devel channel and did  several updates - i am using it now for about 2 months or so.. all callers complain about bad audio quality. i can hear them pretty well.
[09:10] <nhaines> henno: might be worth doing a clean install.
[09:10] <nhaines> ogra_: is it the 'utopic' images that are going to form the basis of the shipping phones?  I just said it was 'trusty' in an article I sent to my editor.  :P
[09:11] <ogra_> yes, it will be utopic
[09:11] <nhaines> She just confirmed receipt 8 minutes ago.  Guess I have an email to write.  :)
[09:11] <ogra_> we'll likely take a snapshot at some point and stabilize that ...
[09:11] <henno> i don't have dual boot installed - i wiped everything and installed it cleanly. what was kinda crappy was the installation of the proprietary radio image. is there a special image i need to use?
[09:12] <ogra_> (in parallel in the snapshot and archive)
[09:12] <ogra_> henno, you should best start off the latest android build
[09:12] <ogra_> oem unlock that ... then boot it once fully into android ...
[09:12] <ogra_> ... then use ubuntu-device-flash to flash it
[09:13] <henno> i have read the howtos. thanx.
[09:13] <ogra_> :)
[09:13] <henno> ok i will do that - though i really don't like to install android again.. *sigh
[09:13] <henno> :-)
[09:13] <ogra_> well, that guarantees you to have the same radio etc that everyone else uses
[09:14] <ogra_> it could well be that your former audio issues came from there
[09:15] <nhaines> This reminds me that my Nexus 5 is broken and can't record video, and I should probably reflash the entire thing, sigh.
[09:15] <henno> ok. i will try that now.
[09:17] <ogra_> nhaines, nothing can record video ... why would the N5 be different
[09:17] <nhaines> ogra_: Android problem, actually.
[09:17] <ogra_> this feature is still in development ... ;)
[09:17] <ogra_> oh, you use dual boot, right
[09:17] <nhaines> Well, Nexus 5 doesn't have sound support.  ;)
[09:18] <ogra_> oh, i thought it has some
[09:18] <nhaines> Although to be honest I haven't had a chance to test phone calls yet.
[09:18] <ogra_> just bad quality
[09:18] <nhaines> Audio playback works badly, although it sometimes does start working perfectly briefly.
[09:18] <ogra_> (someone with the device should really send a patch :P )
[09:18] <nhaines> Oh, if I had any idea how these phones worked I would.  :)
[09:25] <nhaines> ogra_: thanks, got my article corrected.  ;)
[09:26] <ogra_> :)
[09:26] <ogra_> doing it on trusty would mean doing the work twice in two releases ... (one of them being behind wouldnt help either)
[09:27] <nhaines> Oh sure, it's just that all the announcements were pretty clear about trusty forming the basis of the new hardware.
[09:28] <ogra_> well, then we would potentially have to use an older Qt etc
[09:28] <nhaines> I'm a little nervous about the new header design, but otherwise I think it's all shaping up pretty well.
[09:28]  * ogra_ wont comment on the new header design ... 
[09:28] <ogra_> <- not a fan
[09:29] <nhaines> Well sure, neither am I.  :)  It's a bit busy and I have no doubt that developers will just ignore the design patterns.
[09:29] <nhaines> It solves the "back button" issue.... but I hate the position.  So I donno.  I'll have to wait and see how it shapes up.  :)
[09:30] <ogra_> i dont mind having it for rarely used options ... menus etc
[09:30] <zyga> jhodapp: hey
[09:30] <ogra_> i am massively concerned about the back button and about the fact that webapps will end up with two headers ...
[09:31] <jhodapp> zyga, hi
[09:31] <zyga> jhodapp: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/media-hub/+bug/1321203 media hub crashes a few times per second on my box
[09:31] <ogra_> if your webapp is just a container around a mobile site these always come with a header already
[09:31] <nhaines> Oh?  I don't think I've heard about the webapp thing.  Although I know that *my* webapp broke in 14.04 with the switch to oxide.
[09:31] <ogra_> jhodapp, is media-hub already seeded on desktop ?
[09:31] <nhaines> Haven't had time to fix it yet, but hopefully next week after my installfest...
[09:31] <zyga> ogra_: ubuntu-desktop-next
[09:31] <jhodapp> ogra_, shouldn't be
[09:31] <ogra_> ah
[09:32] <jhodapp> zyga, you installed it on your desktop?
[09:32] <ogra_> well, that might indeed have some issues without the codecs in the container :)
[09:32] <zyga> jhodapp: yeah
[09:32] <ogra_> jhodapp, we have a unit8 desktop now
[09:32] <zyga> jhodapp: unity 8 actually works okay
[09:32] <jhodapp> zyga, not supported yet
[09:32] <zyga> jhodapp: then fix the package to not be installed :)
[09:32] <jhodapp> zyga, it's definitely going to crash, immediately
[09:32] <ogra_> Laney, ^^^ i guess thats something to unseed for now
[09:32] <zyga> jhodapp: why?
[09:32] <jhodapp> zyga, it's trying to make android calls
[09:32] <ogra_> there are no HW codecs
[09:32] <zyga> ah :)
[09:32] <zyga> I see
[09:33] <jhodapp> zyga, it should only be seeded in touch
[09:33] <ogra_> jhodapp, it is the touch seed :)
[09:33] <Laney> ogra_: hmm?
[09:33] <Laney> ogra_: feel free to fix the seeds
[09:33] <ogra_> jhodapp, the desktop team is building an iso based on it ... but for i86 desktop
[09:33] <ogra_> *x86
[09:33] <nhaines> Ooh, did that get approved?  :)
[09:34] <ogra_> i think it exists already
[09:34] <jhodapp> ogra_, ok, so what's the issue then?
[09:34] <zyga> anyway, seems like it should depend on some un-installable android-magic-foobar package
[09:34] <ogra_> jhodapp, well, it runs the touch session plainy on a PC
[09:34] <zyga> jhodapp: you can install it, you shouldn't be able to if it's not ever going to work on x86 right now
[09:34] <jhodapp> zyga, ogra_: why are we trying to install the touch image on an x86 desktop?
[09:34] <ogra_> identical to what we have on the phone ... but no android container involved
[09:35] <zyga> jhodapp: I'm not, the ubuntu-*desktop*-next package is clearly meant for desktops
[09:35] <ogra_> jhodapp, because the desktop team uses it as a base for their unity8 desktop development
[09:35] <zyga> jhodapp: and it's not an image, it's a package I installed on utopic desktop
[09:35] <ogra_> jhodapp, this image will become ubuntu-desktop eventually
[09:35] <ogra_> right, there is also a package ypou could install since trusty
[09:36]  * zyga sees this as a simple missing dependency bug
[09:36] <ogra_> nope
[09:36] <zyga> well, kind of
[09:36] <ogra_> its a seed bug :)
[09:36] <jhodapp> ogra_, zyga: I'll let you two figure this out :)
[09:36] <zyga> seems like dbus call going to a uninstalled service
[09:36] <zyga> it's okay for the service to be un-installable on certain environments
[09:37] <zyga> but I doubt I'm the only person who has that running now
[09:37] <ogra_> jhodapp, well, it should better be fixed by making media-hub actually work for the usecase ;)
[09:37] <nhaines> unity8-desktop-session-mir is the trusty package.  :)
[09:37] <jhodapp> ogra_, exactly, but that's after RTM :)
[09:37] <ogra_> changing the seed can just be a workaround
[09:37] <ogra_> yeah
[09:38] <jhodapp> zyga, so I'm going to mark this as won't fix for media-hub
[09:39] <Laney> there aren't any isos yet
[09:39] <zyga> jhodapp: hmm
[09:39] <Laney> I'm slightly surprised that people are installing it ;-)
[09:39] <zyga> jhodapp: that's also causing upstart to consume all ram
[09:39] <ogra_> ah, but there will be soon i guess :)
[09:39] <Laney> but it shouldn't be possible to get into this state really
[09:39] <zyga> jhodapp: I'd like to see a better resolution
[09:39] <Laney> so there is clearly still a bug
[09:39] <zyga> jhodapp: one that doesn't clobber everyone who by now have that installed
[09:39] <ogra_> Laney, well, the package bregma did exists since trusty already
[09:39] <jhodapp> zyga, there will be, you're just too early to use media-hub on the desktop
[09:39] <Laney> yes, that's not this though is it
[09:40] <Laney> anyway
[09:40] <Laney> ogra_: will you fix the seed?
[09:40]  * ogra_ never looked at the PC wor4ld ... no idea :)
[09:40] <zyga> jhodapp: so make it broken and not installable, there's no other way IMHO
[09:40] <Laney> I don't know exactly what you're referring to, seems easier if you do it
[09:40] <ogra_> Laney, i can take a look, yes
[09:40] <Laney> ty
[09:40] <ogra_> we'll need to drop all multimedia stuff though
[09:40] <jhodapp> zyga, seems ogra_ will take a look
[09:40] <zyga> jhodapp: mind you, media-hub-server crashes seem to trigger: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/upstart/+bug/1321204
[09:40] <zyga> thanks
[09:40] <zyga> ogra_: anything I can do to help?
[09:41] <Laney> can the upstart job be fixed to not start in this situation?
[09:41] <Laney> if it's available in the archive people can install it ...
[09:41] <jhodapp> zyga, yeah, seems if an upstart job in this case keeps crashing and restarting a new instance that triggers that bug
[09:41] <zyga> yeah, I think so too
[09:41] <ogra_> Laney, i would recommend a package for such hacks you ship specifically in these seeds ... with override files that disable it
[09:41] <Laney> no
[09:42] <Laney> I don't want to perpetuate hacks all over the place
[09:42] <ogra_> Laney, on the phone we have lxc-android-config for exactly that purpose ... slowly reducing the number of hacks as we go
[09:42] <ogra_> you dont put them all over the place
[09:42] <ogra_> keep them in one place :)
[09:42] <Laney> I mean hacks for all of the broken packages
[09:42] <Laney> just fix it at source
[09:43] <ogra_> (and get rid of them)
[09:43] <Laney> in this case we have 'start on started dbus' and 'respawn limit unlimited'
[09:43] <ogra_> Laney, you wont see any fix for that
[09:43] <Laney> it's okay to have built a program which crashes and respawns forever?
[09:43] <Laney> i don't think so
[09:43] <ogra_> on the phone you want to have unlimited respawning
[09:43] <ogra_> (and no crashes ;) )
[09:44] <jhodapp> indeed
[09:44] <nhaines> I'll take unlimited memory on my phone and no crashes too.
[09:44] <Laney> if it doesn't crash you don't need unlimited respawning
[09:44] <ogra_> if it hits a corner case you want it always to come vback
[09:44] <zyga> unlimited respawns => battery overheat => explosion/burns => lawsuit
[09:44] <ogra_> there is no easy way to restart it on a phone
[09:45] <jhodapp> Laney, media-hub-server will get better and better but I'll almost guarantee there will always be crash situations given the vast array of input files and situations it handles
[09:45] <ogra_> on the PC it wont even be supported for quite a while still
[09:45] <Laney> so make the start on condition reflect that
[09:46] <ogra_> based on something like xsession perhaps
[09:46] <ogra_> your session has a special name, right ?
[09:46] <ogra_> differing from the phone one
[09:47] <Laney> do it positively
[09:47] <ogra_> jhodapp, we could add "xsession SESSION=ubuntu-touch" to the start on stanza in the upstart job ...
[09:47] <Laney> so use the phone name instead of "not this bad one"
[09:47] <Laney> if I install it on xubuntu I don't want to get a broken system either
[09:48] <ogra_> right
[09:48] <jhodapp> ogra_, yeah that could work...can you test that?
[09:50] <Laney> but unseeding too sounds good as it's a waste of space otherwise
[09:50] <Laney> cheers ;-)
[09:55] <ogra_> jhodapp, https://code.launchpad.net/~ogra/media-hub/do-not-start-on-desktop/+merge/220218
[09:57] <jhodapp> ogra_, let me take a look
[09:57] <jhodapp> ogra_, still starts on touch then?
[09:57] <ogra_> yep
[09:57] <ogra_> tested that
[09:57] <jhodapp> ogra_, cool, let me try it on flo
[09:59] <kenvandine> ted, would you think i'm evil for proposing https://code.launchpad.net/~ken-vandine/upstart-app-launch/exec_even_nodisplay
[10:00] <jhodapp> ogra_, still works for me too, approved
[10:00] <ogra_> good
[10:00] <jhodapp> ogra_, we need to get that into a silo then
[10:01] <ogra_> yeah
[10:02] <jhodapp> ogra_, silo's are annoying for small changes like this :)
[10:04] <Laney> dput!
[10:09] <kenvandine> ted, note i don't actually care if you think i'm evil... but is it a bad idea?  :)
[10:13] <pmcgowan> davmor2, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-keyboard/+bug/1306656
[10:13] <pmcgowan> davmor2, looks like Elleo had a look but not clear yet
[10:17] <chuckyanutsup> g'day folks. I was wondering if there was a way to get changes to /etc/fstab to persist on reboot, and to be able to stream media from a network share
[10:18] <chuckyanutsup> I've managed to mount the share, but it doesn't persist on reboot and the mounted files can be copied but don't stream
[10:19] <ogra_> not easily, fstab is generated during boot
[10:19] <ogra_> (if you talk about a phone/tablet)
[10:20] <chuckyanutsup> yeah, nexus 5 (I know it's not officially supported yet)
[10:20] <ogra_> well, even if it was, that doesnt change the facts :)
[10:21] <ogra_> i would go with a script or create an upstart job for this
[10:22] <ogra_> (indeed that requires to make the image writable etc)
[10:22] <davmor2> pmcgowan: thanks dude
[10:23] <chuckyanutsup> Is there an autostart folder? I had a look but couldn't see one
[10:24] <Elleo> pmcgowan, davmor2: yep, still need to dig into that more; will try to have another look during the sprint
[10:26] <chuckyanutsup> thanks orga_ I didn't know fstab was generated on boot. Is there somewhere I can find more info on what is and isn't called/generated on boot?
[10:26] <ogra_> not easily without digging through all the code :)
[10:27] <ogra_> the fstab specifically is pulled from android ... merged with the ubuntu bits and then put in place before the actual switch to the rootfs ... that specific code lives in initramfs-tools-ubuntu-touch
[10:30] <chuckyanutsup> is there a known folder like autostart that I can use to call scripts?
[10:30] <ogra_> you can create an upstart job ...
[10:30] <ogra_> http://upstart.ubuntu.com/cookbook/
[10:30] <chuckyanutsup> sweet :) thank you
[10:37] <mandel> slangasek, I'm looking at the bug you reported with system image updates, I'm quite sure they will not work in the emulator
[10:37] <mandel> slangasek, I'll do my best to get more info about what is going on
[11:00] <pete-woods> Cimi: hi, just wanted to check that everything for the infographics API side was okay?
[11:02] <Cimi> pete-woods, think it is, I got into another bug but I'm again on it
[11:02] <pete-woods> Cimi: okay, cool, don't hesitate to ping me if anything's broken / weird
[11:30] <cwayne1> pete-woods: ping
[11:34] <pete-woods> cwayne: hi
[11:34] <pete-woods> cwayne1: also hi
[11:35] <cwayne1> oops sorry
[11:35] <cwayne1> huh, wonder why theres two of me
[11:35] <cwayne1> pete-woods: I was wondering how we could add fake chinese data to the infographic
[11:36] <cwayne1> as in english the number goes first (4 calls made today), but it seems in chinese, the number may be in the middle of the string
[11:37] <pete-woods> cwayne: well with fake data, there won't be any translation files installed
[11:38] <pete-woods> cwayne1: your test data comes from a small binary run at startup or something doesn't it?
[11:38] <pete-woods> you could always add chinese translations for it?
[11:39] <cwayne1> hmm yeah
[11:39] <pete-woods> the usermetrics service attempts to translate all the strings for each data source using gettext
[11:40] <pete-woods> you could also just hack it by changing the input just to be in chinese
[11:40] <pete-woods> although obviously that would mean that if you set the phone to english, the infographics would still be in chinese
[11:42] <cwayne1> right
[11:43] <cwayne1> hmm, i guess ill try and take a look at the script we have to add data at startup
[11:43] <pete-woods> you just need to make sure you set the gettext domain when you use the libusermetricsinput API
[11:43] <pete-woods> it's one of the parameters
[11:43] <cwayne1> pete-woods: what would i need to set it to?
[11:44] <pete-woods> cwayne1: whatever the domain is for the translations you add
[11:44] <pete-woods> it's totally arbitrary, and usually == the name of your application
[11:45] <pete-woods> just needs to be the same at each end, and not collide with an existing domain
[12:01] <Mirv> jhodapp: ok qt5-beta2 PPA now has also rebuilds of qtubuntu, qtubuntu-camera (not installed on device nowadays?), qtubuntu-media and qtvideo-node, but camera or video playback still don't work
[12:02] <Mirv> jhodapp: you can see the list of packages at https://launchpad.net/~canonical-qt5-edgers/+archive/qt5-beta2/+packages?field.series_filter=utopic
[12:02] <jhodapp> Mirv, ok I'd have to take a look at the debug output to see why it's not working
[12:03]  * ogra_ wonders why colors look so different between flo and mako ... i have the same carousel graphics on both devices but flo is a lot more differentiated 
[12:04] <Mirv> jhodapp: media-hub.log http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/7492720/
[12:06] <jhodapp> Mirv, can you run that again: "stop media-hub; GST_DEBUG=*:4 CORE_UBUNTU_MEDIA_SERVICE_VIDEO_SINK_NAME=mirsink media-hub-server"
[12:12] <Mirv> jhodapp: as phablet user, or as root? I'm getting that media-hub is unknown job
[12:12] <jhodapp> phablet
[12:13] <Mirv> so /sbin/initctl stop probably?
[12:13] <Mirv> yeah that works
[12:14] <jhodapp> Mirv, stop media-hub doesn't work for you?
[12:15] <Mirv> jhodapp: no, no such command as phablet user for me, I need to do /sbin/initctl stop media-hub, which works
[12:15] <Mirv> jhodapp: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/7492743/ - this is after launching video player, which launches as a black screen but nothing happens.
[12:15] <jhodapp> Mirv, interesting...I must have something in my environment that has that mapped
[12:15] <jhodapp> ok
[12:16] <Mirv> jhodapp: more output after where that previous cut ends is at: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/7492754/ (after some time, and clicking around a bit)
[12:18] <jhodapp> Mirv, ok
[12:19] <jhodapp> Mirv, that looks ok, I'd have to dig into it deeper
[12:33] <Mirv> jhodapp: do you think you'd have time for that at some point this week?
[12:44] <AskUbuntu> Ubuntu & Mac OSX | http://askubuntu.com/q/469587
[12:44] <kenvandine> ted, ping
[13:07] <cwayne1> is the latest -proposed known broken?
[13:07] <cwayne1> i can't get past the bootloader
[13:50] <seb128> mhr3, hey
[13:50] <mhr3> seb128, hey
[13:50] <seb128> mhr3, your unity-scopes-api made unity-scopes-click/unity8 tests unhappy
[13:50] <seb128> mhr3, pitti/Mirv/etc are talking about deleting your update in #ubuntu-devel
[13:51] <seb128> I figured out I would let you know ;-)
[13:51] <mhr3> seb128, would be nice how/why are they unhappy
[13:51] <seb128> mhr3, you might want to join #ubuntu-devel
[13:51] <Mirv> oh right mhr3 is not there :)
[13:51] <mhr3> nice to know
[13:51] <Mirv> mhr3: http://d-jenkins.ubuntu-ci:8080/view/Utopic/view/AutoPkgTest/job/utopic-adt-unity-scope-click/lastBuild/ARCH=amd64,label=adt/console
[13:51] <Mirv> failed tests QueryTest.testAddAvailableAppsPushesResults + QueryTest.testDuplicatesFilteredOnPackageName
[14:24] <Saviq> is anyone else's flo and manta disabling wifi on boot?
[14:24] <ogra_> Saviq, manta is a known driver issue ...
[14:25] <ogra_> flo is known for doing it after a fresh flash but should work fine after this ...
[14:25] <ogra_> (you need to enable it once after OTA or virgin flashing)
[14:26] <Saviq> ogra_, how about brightness, the auto brightness logic seems to be borked on flo and manta for me - *and* you can't override it with the slider unless you turn auto off, which I think isn't the case on mako (or the designed behaviour)
[14:27] <ogra_> hmm, havent noticed that before ... mine is always on auto and i dont play with the slider ... but now that you mention it, yeah, behaves oddly
[14:28] <ogra_> mako definitely takes eth slider value as a base for the auto setting
[14:28] <ogra_> flo doesnt
[15:25] <Mirv> oSoMoN_: oxide seems happy with Qt 5.3 (armhf still building) https://launchpad.net/~canonical-qt5-edgers/+archive/qt5-daily/+sourcepub/4187037/+listing-archive-extra
[15:25] <Mirv> I'll try a rebuild of the browser after it finishes
[15:27] <oSoMoN_> Mirv, nice! thanks
[15:35] <ubu-tester> I installed the recommended Utopic build, was this incorrect if I was looking to play with the desktop / slimport feature?
[15:38] <ubu-tester> Is this only available in a specific build channel?
[15:52] <slangasek> mandel: ah right, I forgot we hadn't sorted out letting system-image work on the emulator.  Still, shouldn't the udm pieces be working?  I'm concerned about whether this problem also affects the phones
[15:52] <mandel> slangasek, phones are working with no problem nevertheless I'm looking into it as it is a critical bug
[15:53] <slangasek> ok
[15:53] <mandel> slangasek, I have not been able to reproduce it and seems just to happen in the test suit from system image updates
[15:53] <mandel> slangasek, and the error you got was correct, there is no space in /tmp for the download, I recognize that the sentence in the log uses very bad english
[15:54] <slangasek> evidently I didn't read the right part of the log to see that :)
[16:03] <balloons> ping jdstrand, so keeping our conversation going from yesterday. I would have to hardcode the directory I want to write to in the app armor policy?
[16:15] <ubu-tester> Hmmm the devel-custsomized channel didnt seem to have this feature either
[16:26] <slvn_> Hello ! I am looking for generous lander, that could land that branch : https://code.launchpad.net/~ted/upstart-app-launch/ld-library-path/
[16:27] <slvn_> It's important has I want to port/develop native application for UbuntuTouch on tablet/smartphone
[16:27] <slvn_> and this allows an app to access the .so libraries of its own package
[16:27] <slvn_> basically ... export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=.
[16:40] <AskUbuntu> Ubuntu for Tablets on Surface Pro x.x | http://askubuntu.com/q/469710
[16:52] <fsdafsd> hello is someone here?
[17:06] <dobey> only the wind
[17:33] <Ali__> hi?
[17:34] <Ali__> how to install Ubuntu touch?
[17:38] <ogra_> Ali__, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Install
[17:41] <slvn_> hello,  I have a question  about the process of branch integration in ubuntu-touch.
[17:42] <slvn_> I would like this branch to be integrated https://code.launchpad.net/~ted/upstart-app-launch/ld-library-path/
[17:42] <slvn_> the owner has not the time  to integrate it
[17:42] <slvn_> If that's *only* a merge, I believe I can do it
[18:47] <achiang> do we have any tutorials on manually packaging a click package? our dev docs assume you'll use the IDE
[18:48] <achiang> or alternatively, i'm happy to get the source to IDE and read the relevant script that calls the click binaries... can someone give me a pointer?
[18:48] <ogra_> achiang, there were some about building webapps manually ... i forgot where
[18:48]  * ogra_ has never used the IDE ... and i have the most apps in the store afaik 
[18:49] <cwayne1> http://developer.ubuntu.com/publish/webapp/packaging-web-apps/
[18:49] <achiang> ogra_: ok, how do i do it? :) this page doesn't give any examples of how to actually use the tools - http://click.readthedocs.org/en/latest/index.html
[18:50]  * achiang goes to read cwayne1's link
[18:50] <achiang> ah, that page is pretty good
[18:53] <ogra_> achiang, http://paste.ubuntu.com/7494246/
[18:54] <achiang> ogra_: danke!
[18:54] <ogra_> three text files and a png
[18:55] <ogra_> for qml apps you simply ship the .qml file in teh package dir and adjust the Exec line of the .desktop
[18:55] <ogra_> at least thats how i do it :)
[18:57] <achiang> ogra_: i'm experimenting with a pure c++ program
[18:57] <ogra_> ah, well, put the binary there then
[18:57] <ogra_> and call it from the Exec line
[18:58] <ogra_> trivial... as long as you build it static at least ... once you actually hook into the framework i would go with the IDE
[18:59] <ogra_> you *can* use your own shared libs in your click  as soon as ted lands the fix that slvn_ above referred to ...
[18:59] <achiang> where is ted? :P
[18:59] <ogra_> https://code.launchpad.net/~ted/upstart-app-launch/ld-library-path/ is the merge
[19:00] <ogra_> well ... https://code.launchpad.net/~ted/upstart-app-launch/ld-library-path/+merge/217832
[19:00] <ogra_> is actually the MP
[19:00] <slvn_> ogra_  ...  yeah 2 users of LD_LIBRARY_PATH in Ubuntu :)
[19:01] <ogra_> slvn_, there are surely more ... they just dont come on IRC and give up at some point :P
[19:01] <ted> I'll probably get to starting to land that today.
[19:01] <ted> Pay bootstrapping and then landings.
[19:02]  * ogra_ hugs ted 
[19:04] <dobey> how does one do fat packages though? Can't have the Exec= trying to run an amd64 binary on an armhf phone
[19:06] <slvn_> orga_,  yep, I am just kidding.  but sometime, it's no so obvious
[19:06] <slvn_> ted, that would be great ..
[19:09] <ogra_> dobey, dd if=/dev/zero of=package/fat-file bs=1M count=300 ... that makes the package really fat :P
[19:10] <ogra_> (i think you meant cross packages ... fat is not arch specific afaik)
[19:11] <ogra_> (just more featureful)
[19:11] <achiang> ogra_: i think you mean if=/dev/carbs
[19:12] <ogra_> heh
[19:12] <cwayne1> ha
[19:12] <cwayne1> achiang: i had so many carbs today, it was glorious
[19:13] <achiang> cwayne1: i ate pizza today
[19:13] <dobey> ogra_: i mean fat as in all the binaries for all the archs
[19:13] <dobey> carbs are great. especially when distilled or fermented
[19:13] <ogra_> dobey, yeah, i dont think that exists in more than someones head yet
[19:18] <dobey> :-/
[19:23] <nhaines> Ooh, what's in the new infographics?
[19:30] <taiebot> Hello all Is it safe to downgrade to a previous devel version of UT. Would like to go back before r16 to see if my gsm would work again.
[19:38] <ogra_> taiebot, gsm ?
[19:39] <ogra_> taiebot, that only works after you have been 20-40 min outdoors anyway
[19:39] <ogra_> err
[19:39] <ogra_> sorry, i was reading gps
[19:39] <ogra_> ignore me
[19:39] <ogra_> you can use the --revision option with ubuntu-device-flash
[20:01] <Isidore_ducasse> Hi all
[20:01] <achiang> ted: is the desktop file format for touch apps documented anywhere?
[20:01] <achiang> ted: trying to grok what X-Ubuntu-Touch=true actually means...
[20:02] <ted> achiang, At one point we were looking at separating out apps, but I don't think anyone is using that field today.
[20:02] <ted> achiang, I think the only field that is really important is the sidestage hint.
[20:03] <ted> achiang, Well, important on tablet/desktop.
[20:03] <achiang> ted: ok, thanks
[20:04] <Isidore_ducasse> I've been trying to install ubuntu touch to my Sony Xperia tablet Z following instructions https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Devices/pollux
[20:04] <Isidore_ducasse> Couldn't get it working though
[20:04] <ted> To correct, the only custom field that we're using. Exec and Name are important :-)
[20:05] <achiang> got it
[20:05] <Isidore_ducasse> Am I in the correct place to ask for help ?
[20:05] <achiang> ted: do we have tools to create the manifest.json?
[20:06] <ted> achiang, QtCreator :-)
[20:06] <ted> achiang, I don't know of any others besides Vi
[20:06] <ogra_> Isidore_ducasse, try to contact the porter ... there should be a link to his/her launchpad page on that wikipage
[20:06] <ted> achiang, There are some verification tools in the click verification package.
[20:06] <ogra_> vi FTW !
[20:06] <achiang> ted: i'm happy to manually edit, but just want to know what the options are
[20:06] <Isidore_ducasse> ok Tanks ogra_
[20:07] <ted> achiang, Sure, I also always expect you're writing up slides for some presentation :-)
[20:07] <achiang> i guess i can just copy/pasta the minimal manifest that is on the "packaging web apps" page and that ogra pasted
[20:07] <ogra_> yeah
[20:07] <achiang> ted: this time i'm actually trying to package an app (although manually, without the IDE)
[20:07] <ogra_> it definitely works fine
[20:08]  * ted 's world view is crushed
[20:08] <ogra_> you want to have a different apparmor setup than my stuff rthough
[20:08] <ogra_> (app.json in my paste)
[20:08] <achiang> well, i've already selected the 'unconfined' template
[20:09] <ogra_> i.e. drop the template line
[20:09] <achiang> not really sure what the framework key in the manifest does or means
[20:09] <ogra_> and also the webvviev from the bottom
[20:09] <ogra_> it means which frameworks your app works with
[20:09] <ogra_> if you use any bits of the framework thats important
[20:10] <AlbertA> is there a way to fake receiving an sms in touch?
[20:10] <AlbertA> or a call?
[20:10] <ted> AlbertA, You can use ofono-phonesim, but I'm not an expert there.
[20:10] <achiang> ogra_: i have this - http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/7494520/
[20:10] <ogra_> achiang, i.e. webapps with the 13.10 framework default to use webkit ... while the 14.04 one uses oxide
[20:10] <achiang> ogra_: i don't use the framework at all in my app
[20:11] <ted> achiang, Think about framework as a dependency, but you only get one.
[20:11] <ogra_> ah, well and you run unconfined
[20:11] <ted> achiang, So that you could support only 13.10 or only 14.04 if you choose.
[20:11] <ogra_> that means you wont be allowed to go into the store
[20:11] <achiang> ogra_: i'm not going into the store. :)
[20:11] <ogra_> right, just saying :)
[20:16] <AlbertA> ted: thanks, I installed but no idea how to use it
[20:21] <asac> btw, since when do i need an ubuntu one account to update my system image?
[20:21] <dobey> asac: since forever afaik
[20:21] <asac> i surely never configured my ubuntu one account
[20:21] <asac> and i was able to update my system image on phone
[20:21] <asac> now it doesnt work anymore
[20:22] <dobey> barry: ^^
[20:23] <slvn_> Bye !
[20:26] <barry> asac, dobey that's caused by a change in system settings, where an "update" now tries to both update the system and the apps.  it's the apps talking to the app store that requires the u1 login.  i just found out about this.  (i.e. if you system-image-cli update your phone, you don't need the login)
[20:26] <dobey> ah
[20:26] <barry> system-image-dbus doesn't need it either.  it's the ui that invokes s-i-dbus that needs it, iiurc
[20:26] <asac> barry: ok, is any work underway/planned/done to refine this behavioru?
[20:26] <barry> *iiuc
[20:26] <barry> asac: you have to talk to the ui guys
[20:27] <asac> seb128: ^^
[20:28] <ogra_> asac, i think thats gatox' area ...
[20:28] <asac> seb128: system settings should probably be a bit more forgiving if you dont have u1 account setup and still let you update to new system images etc.
[20:28] <seb128> asac, it's a known working issue, gatox is working on it
[20:28] <asac> cool
[20:28] <asac> seb128: will keep my phone in this state and use the cli to upgrade so i can validate that all is great once your fix lands
[20:28] <ogra_> indeed, we now do all updates in one go ...
[20:28] <seb128> k
[20:28] <ogra_> which requires the account for clicks
[20:28] <asac> so hopefully it will go away
[20:29] <dobey> hmm, that seems like it also might result in pointless updates
[20:29] <asac> seb128: i assume we will also improve that we currently have two update buttons?
[20:29] <asac> seb128: i used the path through "about phone"
[20:30] <asac> dobey: pointless updates?
[20:30] <ogra_> yeah, thats hardly avoidable
[20:30] <ogra_> asac, you get click updates offerd along with an image update that contains the offered clicks
[20:30] <dobey> ie, if i'm on say image 10 and there is an update to image 20, as well as an update to say, the weather app, but image 20 includes that version of the weather app. it shouldn't install the weather update as well as the image, in that case (but i don't know how to avoid that at the moment)
[20:30] <ogra_> at least for core apps
[20:30] <asac> ok
[20:31] <seb128> asac, is that an issue to have several ways to land on the same screen ?
[20:31] <asac> seb128: not sure :)
[20:31] <asac> seb128: i think its better if they do the same thing
[20:31] <asac> because i found the other update button which didnt work due to no ubuntu one
[20:31] <asac> and then found the one in about phone that worked
[20:31] <asac> so guess now that it does both things its fine
[20:31] <asac> only thing is that the "update" button is directly on the same level where you can find "about phone"
[20:32] <asac> so its not really two different routes'
[20:32] <asac> just one extended :)
[20:37] <taiebot> Thanks ogra trying r15 and i have gsm connection \o/
[20:41] <achiang> do we install /etc/init/ssh.override by default or something?
[20:46] <ogra_> achiang, yes
[20:46] <achiang> ogra_: why?
[20:46] <achiang> ogra_: we don't install openssh-server by default anyway...
[20:47] <ogra_> else ssh woould be running all the time on all phones
[20:47] <ogra_> use the property ;)
[20:47] <ogra_> we do install openssh-server by default
[20:47] <achiang> oh, you mean ssh-agent?
[20:47] <achiang> really?!
[20:47] <ogra_> yes
[20:47] <achiang> that's a bit nuts
[20:47] <ogra_> no
[20:48] <ogra_> adb shell setprop persist.service.ssh=true
[20:48] <ogra_> if oyu want it permanently on
[20:48] <ogra_> adb shell start ssh
[20:48] <ogra_> for a one timed
[20:48] <ogra_> *timer
[20:48] <ogra_> the IDE uses ssh
[20:49] <achiang> oh, that's interesting
[20:49] <ogra_> (though via adb forwarding, not over the network)
[20:49] <AlbertA> ted: I figured it out basedon the auto pilot tests...one can dial the magic number 199
[20:49] <AlbertA> ted: qdbus --system org.ofono /phonesim org.ofono.VoiceCallManager.Dial "199" "default"
[20:50] <ogra_> achiang, i would muchly prefer to only ship with ssh and drop adbd to get safer connections (vis usbnet ...) but adb was made a strict requirement
[20:52] <ogra_> and now most of our tools revolve around it ...
[20:52] <ogra_> but ssh is used for remote execution of apps by the IDE so we still need to ship it
[20:53] <achiang> that is quite strange to me
[20:54] <achiang> do we ship with ssh server on desktop?
[20:54] <ogra_> well, we have stranger things in the image than a disabled ssh server
[20:54] <ogra_> no
[20:54] <ogra_> but you have no way to install it on the phone unless you make the image writable and lose upgradeability support
[20:55] <ogra_> so it is better to ship it disabled
[20:55] <achiang> well, that's the weirder part to me -- we don't ship ssh server on desktop but we do on phone ;)
[20:55] <ogra_> yes, because on desktop we would need to hack it the same way to match our "no ports open by default" policy
[20:56] <ogra_> its a compromise for people needing/wanting it to not trash their upgradeability
[20:59] <ogra_> achiang, anyway there are 100s of MB of worse stuff we should care to get rid of from the image before thinking about ssh :)
[21:00] <achiang> ogra_: let's get rid of them all!
[21:00] <ogra_> sadly we are way to big thanks to shipping all possible frameworks
[21:00] <ogra_> like webkit together with oxide etc
[21:01] <ogra_> while i understand the intention to support the 13.10 frameworks we will soon hit the limit even if we have removed all cruft ... we are way over 500M for the compressed tarball
[21:02] <ogra_> (and i dont expect Qt 5,3 to become smaller)
[21:14] <asac> achiang: do you guys have input onw what we should/could wipe from image?
[21:15] <achiang> asac: hm, actually last time i looked at the utouch seed, i liked it
[21:16] <achiang> asac: i think it's probably more what ogra_ is talking about... the fact that we have 2 frameworks, etc.
[21:16] <achiang> or webkit + oxide
[21:16] <achiang> but as far as the other packages we have, those are fairly reasonable
[21:17] <ogra_> well
[21:17] <ogra_> we have a ton of unwanted deps
[21:17] <dobey> there's a lot of stuff that could be trimmed out, but some of it requires a lot of coordination/work :-/
[21:17] <ogra_> iirc we have that on the list for the sprint
[22:09] <mikey85> ok now for me plea
[22:09] <mikey85> so ikonia has banned me in every Ubuntu channel
[22:09] <mikey85> I have been falsely accused
[22:09] <mikey85> I have the logs
[22:09] <mikey85> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/05/20/%23ubuntu.txt
[22:10] <mikey85> that guy was impersonating me
[22:10] <mikey85> great here comes corey again
[22:10] <mikey85> corey stop this madness
[22:10] <mikey85> you and ikonia are working together
[22:10] <mikey85> You don't own ubuntu
[22:14] <cwayne1> wut
[22:14] <ogra_> cwayne1, heh, he was jumping across all #ubuntu-* chanels randomly
[22:15] <cwayne1> nothing like a little irc drama :)
[22:15] <asac> hehe
[22:19] <asac> ogra_: do we produce touch images with recommends?
[22:21] <asac> achiang: not sure how we could go without shipping multiple frameworks in one image over time. think we somehow have to find other ways to save space if space is a concern
[22:22] <achiang> asac: space isn't at the top of my list right now... i think as long as the proper teams have it in the backs of their minds, that is good enough
[22:22] <asac> k
[22:22] <achiang> asac: iow, it's important, but not important enough to drop other things :)
[22:22] <asac> thats for sure
[23:50] <Beldar> A little late but some needs their meds, lol. ;)
[23:50] <Beldar> someone*