[03:30] <OvenWerks> zequence: Lots of text on things on the netboot pages, none worked... dd was not there, but it worked fine. I am trying the lubuntu-minimal
[03:46] <OvenWerks> I didn't want to resize the usb stick partition, but I had already cleaned it off so there is no loss, just have to repartition it when I am done back to 16G
[03:47] <OvenWerks> mini.iso seems to be significantly different from either the live or alt iso.
[03:47] <holstein> right?!
[03:48] <OvenWerks> holstein: The utility for writing an iso to a usb stick does not see mini.iso (aka netboot) as an iso.
[03:51] <OvenWerks> I seem to be in a position where none of the computers in the house actually have a cd/dvd drive.... seems they have been outmoded.
[04:53] <OvenWerks> zequence: I installed the basic system from mini.iso plus ssh, lubuntu, and our audio meta.
[04:54] <OvenWerks> This pulled in not just lubuntu-minimal but also xubuntu settings, ubuntustudio-setting, three sets of wallpapers... quite a lot of stuff.
[04:55] <OvenWerks> zequence: obviously the audio-workstation selection on the mini.iso is ubuntustudio plus audio-meta.
[04:57] <OvenWerks> the user does not end up in the audio group. and the kernel is generic.
[04:58] <OvenWerks> I will have to start out all over again with just lubuntu-minimal and nothing else to see if that works.
[05:00] <OvenWerks> Grub did not want to install either. It said something about not liking multiple partitions??? anyway, I booted from my main partition updatyed grub which found the new OS and was able to boot to it.
[05:01] <OvenWerks> I do not know that I would recommend installing from netboot to anyone. It is frustrating and does not explain itself very well even when you sort of know what to expect.
[05:03] <OvenWerks> zequence: I agree making a minimal audio Live ISO is probably worth while.
[05:03] <OvenWerks> Some of the tings I would like to see:
[05:04] <OvenWerks> lowlatency audio set up correctly, same as our normal live ISO
[05:05] <OvenWerks> jackdbus started at session start and pulse started with no alsa backend.
[05:07] <OvenWerks> For all debian, I would like to see GRUB changed to allow the user/(sub)distro to name partitions or boot options. A standard way of prefering a type of kernel... in other words our lowlatency should be easy to change to RT.
[05:17] <OvenWerks> The changes to GRUB should be easy as it is all shell script and merely adding some more variables should make this so it doesn't hurt the uefi
[05:30] <OvenWerks> openbox with xfce4-panel works fine too.
[05:31] <OvenWerks> I don't know that the wm itself matters that much.
[06:20] <zequence> OvenWerks: audio group is handled by a hack in ubiquity
[06:20] <zequence> So, you won't get it with a mini,iso
[06:20] <zequence> Our installer won't be an alternate installer. It will have ubiquity
[06:22] <zequence> OvenWerks: I only installed lubuntu-minimal. You should try that. The system is really barebone
[06:22] <zequence> Then we only add audio plumbing, and linux-lowlatency
[06:24] <zequence> The mini.iso has the old installer. It doesn't work the same way as a live ISO with ubiquity.
[06:24] <zequence> Different installers
[06:24] <zequence> Our minimal ISO would be a live ISO, just like our main ISO, but significantly smaller
[06:24] <zequence> Way below 600MB would be nice
[10:35] <zequence> !paste
[10:36] <zequence> OvenWerks: lubuntu core, with added ubuntu studio theme and menu http://snag.gy/ibR2t.jpg
[10:37] <zequence> I put the panel up, just for the heck of it. Since it's always been that way.
[10:37] <zequence> If you look quickly, you hardly see it's a completely different DE
[10:40] <zequence> Ah, just one more thing - networking :P
[10:41] <zequence> it doesn't have network manager and gui tools for setting up wifi
[10:50] <zequence> Ubiquity might have network setup controls though, but as a live tool it would need some more stuff
[11:09] <elfy> zequence: is there a list anywhere of the studio default apps ? - ie not all the packages - not wanting a list 100's of lines long :p
[11:20] <zequence> elfy: Well, that depends on what you mean by default :). Our default installation is pretty big
[11:21] <zequence> elfy: the metas, ubuntustudio-audio, -audio-pluins, -graphics, -video, -publishing and -photography
[11:21] <zequence> elfy: However, we should probably start with the most important applications
[11:22] <zequence> I could make a list of everything, and separate the packages that we should do first
[11:23] <elfy> zequence: I'm mostly after a list of things that don't get looked at testing wise elsewhere - so hydrogen etc 
[11:23] <zequence> elfy: I'd say most of what is in those metas
[11:24] <zequence> There may be only a few packages there that are common in other distros other than those that have our focus
[11:27] <zequence> I'm pretty sure Gimp and Krita get looked at by someone
[11:27] <zequence> But, how well are they tested?
[11:27] <zequence> Also, blender
[11:28] <elfy> we don't test gimp I know that
[11:28] <elfy> if you can get me a list that'd be great 
[11:29] <elfy> what I'm going to try and do is then - mark which get tested/which have testcases/ testcase bug #'s for those that are listed 
[11:29] <elfy> something that 'we' can then all look at and gulp a bit at :)
[11:29] <zequence> elfy: So, Gimp has a test case already?
[11:30] <elfy> yea
[11:31] <elfy> and it is in an Ubuntu testsuite 
[11:32] <zequence> elfy: To begin with: ardour3, hydrogen, qjackctl, jackd2, jackd1, audacity, qtractor, gladish
[11:32] <zequence> Don't have much time right now. Will check how it all connects, and do some work on that myself as well
[11:32] <elfy> ok 
[11:33] <elfy> where can I find the -metas on launchpad?
[11:34] <zequence> elfy: in the ubuntustudio seed file https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.utopic
[11:34] <zequence> Else, you could get them with: apt-cache show ubuntustudio-audio
[11:34] <zequence> ..etc
[11:35] <zequence> the metas are -audio, -audio-plugins, -graphics, -video, -publishing and -photography
[11:35] <zequence> There are a couple more, but not relevant for testing (at the moment, anyway)
[11:36] <zequence> the seed files are called like the metas, but without "ubuntustudio-"
[11:36] <zequence> Ok. Gotta go an buy a hard drive..
[11:41] <elfy> ok - thanks zequence 
[13:03] <OvenWerks> zequence: testing jackd1? My understanding is that jackd1 uninstalls a good chunk of our software.
[13:04] <OvenWerks> about the only thing it should remove is module-jackdbus-detect... 
[13:07] <OvenWerks> zequence: about the mini installer, I knew that. My comment was more about being glad we are making a replacement.
[13:10] <OvenWerks> lubuntu's menu file has the same bug as all the other gtk based menus bug #1191532
[13:11] <OvenWerks> But we would override it with our own anyway.
[13:12] <OvenWerks> The sample on the freedesktop page has the same bug... well the sw could be coded to make it work, but it makes more sense to fix the config.
[18:58] <cub> wow the lubuntu mini is only 32 MB.
[19:23] <dutch_Grumpy> Any idea way in virtualbox the 14.10,s are small not unlike starcraft , no problem with lubuntu 14.04
[19:25] <cub> dutch_Grumpy, how do you mean small?
[19:25] <dutch_Grumpy> some like 640x280   small rectangle 
[19:26] <elfy> install guest additions
[19:26] <cub> aha probably some issue with the graphic drivers
[19:26] <dutch_Grumpy> reinstalling with full screen settings made no diverance
[19:26] <cub> and what elfy wrote.
[19:27] <dutch_Grumpy> i have elfy :)  as guest aditions
[19:27] <cub> sometimes the guest addition have issues with too new versions of the builds
[19:27] <elfy> working for me - got vbox installed in utopic with utopic guests 
[19:28] <dutch_Grumpy> just have to wait then :(
[19:28] <elfy> dutch_Grumpy: no errors when you ran sudo ./VBoxLinuxAdditions.run or whatever it's called?
[19:28] <dutch_Grumpy>  no   just installed
[19:29] <elfy> odd
[19:29] <elfy> I'm just doing a vbb install of studio now - I'll see what happens 
[19:30] <dutch_Grumpy> run vbox on a 14.04 64b studio
[19:30] <dutch_Grumpy> elfy what is utopic ?
[19:31] <elfy> 14.10 
[19:31] <cub> 14.10 = utpic unicorn
[19:31] <dutch_Grumpy> have one comp so need to run in vbox
[19:31] <elfy> yep
[19:32] <elfy> dutch_Grumpy: what guest are you trying to install then ? 
[19:32] <elfy> nvm 
[19:32] <cub> hmm the lubuntu mini requires network access to install? It downloads a lot it seems.
[19:32] <cub> OvenWerks, are you around?
[19:32] <elfy> well it will - I was sure it's not much different than the standard net image
[19:33] <cub> kind defeats the purpose IMHO. Look the iso is really really small, but we download loads when you run it..
[19:33] <cub> I might not have all the information though. :)
[19:34] <elfy> well - you can tailor it to only get what you actually *want* not someone else's idea of a default
[19:34] <cub> sure, but why not put all the things it has to download on the iso in the first place?
[19:34] <elfy> but I don't do much with anything lubuntu - so could be making it up
[19:35] <cub> me neither, but checking it out after the mail list discussions
[19:35] <cub> or well, I ran lubuntu on my eee pc for a while but changed it for xubuntu and never looked back
[19:36] <cub> elfy, wasn't unit193 fiddling with a xubuntu mini iso?
[19:36] <elfy> yea
[19:36] <cub> did it land?
[19:36] <elfy> still is I *think*
[19:36] <elfy> no - it didn't land 
[19:36] <cub> perhaps that would be a better source
[19:36] <DalekSec> cub: It's less of an ISO and more of a metapackage.  Don't let the iso fool you. ;)
[19:37] <cub> DalekSec, I'm gullible
[19:37] <elfy> ahah
[19:38] <DalekSec> cub: Seems there's still an iso from March 21st.
[19:39] <cub> an xubuntu mini you mean?
[19:39] <DalekSec> cub: The lubuntu mini iso is just the standard Ubuntu mini iso with the Debian installer, everything is pulled from the internet.
[19:40] <cub> mhm
[19:40] <DalekSec> Yep, that's what I meant.
[19:41] <cub> DalekSec, do you have a link?
[19:42] <DalekSec> Yep, but as I don't remember if that predates whisker or not, not sure if it's fully normal.  http://unit193.net/dump/xubuntu-core-14.04-i386.iso
[19:44] <cub> cool, will try that as well. GF is watching the Swedish EU debate ....
[19:46] <elfy> cub: I've got some paint drying - I can record that for you to watch instead :p
[19:46] <elfy> dutch_Grumpy: well 14.10 installs ok in a 14.10 host
[19:47] <dutch_Grumpy>  so virtaul box is to blame then
[19:47] <dutch_Grumpy> have 14.04 baremetal here
[19:49] <DalekSec> cub: Heh, it predates the indicator fix and it's after whisker was added (but not on the ISO), so the panel is a bit funky.
[19:49] <elfy> dutch_Grumpy: I can check mine - but it won't be today
[19:50] <dutch_Grumpy> no hurry ,no doubt there are other things to do that do not need a installed version
[19:51] <elfy> :)
[19:57] <cub> zequence, when using the standard Ubuntu Studio iso and uncheck everything in the new installation page, what is included by default after that? Is it a sort of mini?
[20:36] <cub> woaw, installing lightdm pulls in a lot
[20:55] <cub> Just looking at lubuntu mini with lubuntu-core added it's by a quick look not much different to a xubuntu installation
[20:55] <cub> grew to about 2.1 GB disk space and use about the same RAM on my test machine
[20:55] <cub> I do better with Ubuntu Studio and dwm actually.
[20:56] <cub> so, resource wise I don't think it makes much difference
[20:57] <OvenWerks> cub: you called?
[20:58] <cub> Yeah, I was surprised about the lubuntu mini iso downloading so much, just wanted to check if you had the same experience or if I made a mistake somewhere
[20:58] <OvenWerks> I think a minimal xfce could be made as well. Just the window manager and panel.
[20:59] <OvenWerks> I ended up with much more than ubuntustudio.
[20:59] <cub> I haven't checked but my gut feeling is that my ubuntu studio for my usb installation ended up being smaller than lubuntu-core
[20:59] <OvenWerks> But I didn't do just mini plus lubuntu-minimal, I added ssh and our audio... 
[21:00] <cub> mhm I haven't added any ubuntustudio yet
[21:00] <OvenWerks> I don't think we are doing lubuntu core quite.
[21:00] <OvenWerks> there is a lubuntu-minimal out there.
[21:01] <cub> that's the mini iso?
[21:01] <OvenWerks> Might be a different name for the saem thing though
[21:01] <cub> I'm not sure
[21:01] <OvenWerks> We haven't made it yet.
[21:01] <cub> no I meant that lubuntu mini iso and lubuntu-minimal might be the same stuff included?
[21:01] <cub> not sure though
[21:02] <OvenWerks> zequence will make up a seed branch and get it building. Then we can see.
[21:02] <cub> I read about that. Going to be interesting
[21:03] <cub> but, will it be any different from using the "normal" iso and uncheck everything?
[21:03] <OvenWerks> Yes. ot will be different.
[21:04] <OvenWerks> I just took a look at the lubuntu ISOs and do not see anything smaller than 600M
[21:04] <cub> the mini was smaller, but then downloaded for an eternity during installation
[21:04] <OvenWerks> The ISO will require first downloading everything if you wish to use it or not
[21:05] <cub> imho that's better. I want to be able to install without downloading during installation
[21:05] <OvenWerks> the small version will only download a bit to run and then only downlaod what you want after.
[21:05] <OvenWerks> Choices are good though
[21:06] <cub> yes, but the lubuntu mini downloaded a lot without me making any choices
[21:06] <OvenWerks> For someone off liune the full ISO is best. Also for someone installing on more than one machine.
[21:06] <cub> then it downloaded again after I made my choices
[21:06] <OvenWerks> Where is this lubuntu-mini?
[21:07] <cub> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/Documentation/MinimalInstall
[21:07] <cub> a bit down on the page there is 32 and 64 bit mini
[21:07] <OvenWerks> I am looking through http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/lubuntu/ and there is only live and alt... both CD size or just over.
[21:07] <cub> aha I went through lubuntu.net 
[21:08] <cub> my dog is really bugging me now. gotta take a walk. :D
[21:08] <cub> take care
[21:14] <OvenWerks> zequence: RE: Bug 1322564 ... that is dependant on the panel applet that creates the menu. It is a choice that the lxde devs made to keep things lighter and and use less resourses when running.
[21:17] <OvenWerks> zequence: I have noted on xfce, the first time the menu is selected there is a very long wait (5 to 10 sec) with the disk running before the menu draws and then it is sometimes without the icons which paint as it catches up. LXDE does not seem to do that. I think the lxde panel applet does have a command to reread config info though... sig hup may work too (it is kind of the standard for that) so we could find out what that is and run it... but w
[21:19] <OvenWerks> Both xfce and kde update their menu on the fly or sonn anyway. XFCE checks all the menu files last write time every time, kde seems to do this on a timer instead.
[21:19] <OvenWerks> s/sonn/soon/
[21:19] <kubotu> OvenWerks meant: "Both xfce and kde update their menu on the fly or soon anyway. XFCE checks all the menu files last write time every time, kde seems to do this on a timer instead."
[21:21] <OvenWerks> zequence: From some of the traffic on this channel, it would seem a comparison of the full ISO to the DE-only ISO and where each would be used might be helpful.
[21:22] <OvenWerks> It makes sense to me looking from the inside out, but it seems not obvious to everyone.
[21:25] <OvenWerks> For example (just off the top of my head) I would think the DE-only iso might be 300 to 400 meg instead of 2.5G
[21:27] <OvenWerks> Also there seems to be some confusion about the difference between the size of an on disk install and an ISOs compressed fs size.
[21:27] <OvenWerks> Having a real ISO to point at will probably answer many questions though.
[21:28]  * OvenWerks is off to pick up his son.
[21:35] <Grumpy-Dutch> bed time here :) 
[21:46] <OvenWerks> g'nite
[21:46] <elfy> night Grumpy-Dutch 
[21:49] <DalekSec> cub: Not sure if you were interested in that ISO, but if you were I just spun up a 14.10 one too, same menu problem for now though.
[21:49] <cub> cool, I have downloaded the last one but my virtualbox is setting up a debian, will run the xubuntu after that
[21:56] <OvenWerks> cub, the lubuntu mini install from the page you gave me is just the standard ubuntu netinstall. It is not a lubuntu product
[21:56] <cub> hmm
[21:56] <OvenWerks> I would expect our DE only ISO to be closer to 300meg
[21:57] <OvenWerks> Still much smaller than 2500meg.
[21:58] <OvenWerks> I typed to soon, we are actually down to 2100meg
[21:59] <OvenWerks> However I could see our full ISO increasing in size to include more possibilities for those looking for a download once install many thing.
[21:59] <cub> yeah, the link goes to the ubuntu netinstall
[21:59] <cub> doh