[06:13] <soee> good morning
[07:28] <apachelogger> !find GLES2/gl2.h
[07:29] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: what are we sessioning about with kf5?
[07:29] <apachelogger> !find EGL/egl.h
[07:40] <apachelogger> E: kapidox source: source-is-missing src/kapidox/data/htmlresource/jquery-2.1.0.min.js
[07:40] <apachelogger> :O
[07:40] <apachelogger> how does that even happen
[07:41] <yofel> someone thought: it's a text file so it counts as source? ^^
[07:42] <apachelogger> well, eitherway, why is it missing
[07:42] <apachelogger> or how can something go missing?
[07:42] <yofel> not even git has the unminified js :(
[07:42] <yofel> oh fun, agateau added that
[07:43] <apachelogger> why would one have an uniminified version anyway
[07:44] <yofel> source means readable source, i.e. something that doesn't qualify as unmaintainble code ^^
[07:44] <apachelogger> eh?
[07:44] <apachelogger> how would it check that? 
[07:44] <apachelogger> and why
[07:44] <apachelogger> :O
[07:44] <apachelogger> wtf
[07:45] <yofel> iirc that really checks for the 'min' part in the filename
[07:47] <apachelogger> it's almost as if the lintian dev doesn't have anything else to do but lintian has all the useful stuff so he's adding important features like telling me whether I can read the javascript or not
[07:57] <agateau> yofel: I could keep the unminified js in the source code but then I would have to either minify it everytime someone generates a doc or at install time but that would mean removing the ability to run kgenapidox without installing it :/
[07:58] <agateau> yofel: there is an interesting bit about jquery in Doxygen package, you may want to look at /usr/share/doc/doxygen/README.jquery
[08:03] <yofel> agateau: well, yeah, but they do ship the unminfied version in the source so they're fine
[08:03] <yofel> ScottK: do we need to fix ^ and would shipping both files be enough?
[08:04] <agateau> yofel: the difference is Doxygen is compiled so they do not need to support the "run without installing" use case
[08:05] <agateau> yofel: would it be enough to add the unminified file in the source, even if it is not used?
[08:05] <yofel> that's what I just asked scott, I'm not sure there
[08:05] <agateau> ok
[08:07] <agateau> I could also adjust the code so that installing kapidox would generate the minified file from the unminified file, while running from the source code would directly use the minified file
[08:46] <Riddell> agateau: yes adding the unminified source without build instructions should be fine as long as you would sensibly run the minify command manually and not through a build system
[08:47] <Riddell> nicer to have it included in the build system though
[08:47] <agateau> Riddell: not sure I understand the second part of your sentence
[08:48] <Riddell> agateau: GPL requires all build scripts to be included, if there's no build script then that's fine
[08:48] <agateau> how can it be fine to not ship a build script if it is required to include it?
[08:49] <Riddell> if it doesn't exist
[08:49] <Riddell> maybe you create that file by running a command by hand
[08:52] <Riddell> maco, valorie: gonnae tell your president to stay out of oor politics unless he wants to be re-colonised
[08:52] <valorie> what did he say?
[08:52]  * valorie calms the angry Scot
[08:53] <Riddell> "Scottish independence: Barack Obama backs 'strong and united' UK" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27713327
[08:53] <valorie> ooooo
[08:53] <valorie> silly Obama
[08:54] <valorie> the US president told reporters in Brussels the decision was "up to the people of Scotland".
[08:55] <valorie> he might have wanted to avoid the comparisons with the Crimea
[08:55] <valorie> although that is really not a comparison that can be made
[08:55] <Riddell> I don't see anything about Crimea
[08:56] <Riddell> he also said "the future of the UK is up to the people of Great Britain" which is just weird
[08:57] <valorie> yes, he should have said nothing about it IMO
[08:57] <valorie> not our business
[09:01]  * valorie leaves a great old video here and goes to bed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9J5Zt2Obko
[09:01] <valorie> best drummer *ever*
[09:01] <valorie> no invasions of angry Scots by morning, I hope.....
[09:01] <Riddell> no no, he should have said "we were free in 1776, what took the scots so long" :)
[09:34] <ScottK> yofel: Yes, you need to fix and shipping both files is enough.
[09:38]  * Riddell comes across a comparison of oxygen font and ubuntu font https://projects.kde.org/news/179
[09:39] <yofel> ScottK: ok thanks
[10:20] <BluesKaj> Howdy all
[10:26] <shadeslayer> ScottK: mind merging pykde4?
[10:46] <ScottK> shadeslayer: No.  Although when depends on if I fall asleep on the plane or not.
[10:46] <shadeslayer> ok :)
[10:48] <yofel> speaking of python: If you have using python for GUI apps, how about this? http://micropython.org/ :D
[10:48] <yofel> *hate
[10:48] <ScottK> apachelogger: Minified JavaScript is definitely not the preferred form of modification, so it's not source. 
[10:49] <apachelogger> neither is perl.
[10:51] <ScottK> agateau: As upstream it would be ideal for us (and Debian) if you could ship only the un-minified one in the source and then minify it as part of the build process. 
[10:53] <ScottK> Perl is write only, so it's a bit special. 
[10:55] <apachelogger> :@@@@@@@@@@@@@
[10:56] <apachelogger> frameworks shit is driving me mad I tell ya
[10:56] <apachelogger> MAD
[10:59] <Riddell> apachelogger: what's the status of that? can we start uploading KF5 packages to utopic today?
[10:59] <Riddell> ubiquity not working on today's daily-live, I wonder if I risk a dist-upgrade
[11:09] <apachelogger> Riddell: shoudl be uploaded
[11:09] <apachelogger> or maybe ppa is hating me again
[11:10] <yofel> I see nothing for utopic
[11:10] <apachelogger> ah I should hit enter I guess
[11:10] <apachelogger> too many flipping terminals open really
[11:10] <yofel> ^^
[11:11] <Riddell> we'll probably have to delete the trusty packages to get enough sapce
[11:11] <apachelogger> nah
[11:11] <apachelogger> oh
[11:11] <apachelogger> wgrant: can we please get a bump to 10 GiB for https://launchpad.net/~kubuntu-ppa/+archive/next
[11:12] <apachelogger> or 5 would be enough as well I guess
[11:13] <yofel> should still have enough space for the upload I think, but we'll have to remove the trusty packages after that
[11:13] <apachelogger> or just get a space bump :S
[11:14] <yofel> well, if that takes too long I mean
[11:16] <yofel> err
[11:16] <yofel> no?
[11:16] <Riddell> apachelogger: why override that? seems pretty important
[11:18] <apachelogger> yes
[11:18] <ScottK> apachelogger: Unless the source is really there, don't override that.
[11:19] <ScottK> It's an issue that should cause it to be rejected by the archive admins.
[11:20] <apachelogger> because it has no pointless whitespaces?
[11:21] <ScottK> That would be one way to look at it. For humans the white space isn't pointless. 
[11:21] <yofel> because it's unreadable, and just because you can magically understand character garbage doesn't mean others can too
[11:23] <Riddell> it's not preferred modifiable form, so it's not allowed as source
[11:25] <apachelogger> so if I were to use shit variable names in code woud that code get rejected?
[11:25] <ScottK> Not if that's the actual source. 
[11:26] <apachelogger> that makes 0 sense
[11:27] <ScottK> If you're using the machine readable copyright format it's really easy to fix using Files-Excluded. 
[11:27] <yofel> from what I saw you can also put the source file in debian/missing-sources or so
[11:27] <Riddell> whatever your preferred modifiable form is that's fine, minified javascript is nobody's preferred modifiable form
[11:29] <snele> guys is 4.13.1 update coming anytime soon to trusty?
[11:29] <apachelogger> so, what if I had an editor that stored stuff in minified and expanded on its own?
[11:29] <yofel> snele: should be in -proposed unless it's still stuck
[11:30] <yofel> apachelogger: it's supposed to be readable even without $special_editor
[11:30] <snele> yofel: ok I will enable -proposed and give it a test. thanks 
[11:30] <yofel> or I guess you could ship the editor with the source
[11:30] <apachelogger> yofel: right, so what if I used shit variable names in my code?
[11:31] <yofel> apachelogger: as scott said, if that's the actual source no issue. min.js has a source that it's minified from
[11:31] <ScottK> apachelogger: That doesn't make it source.   If you could de-minify, you could include the results as source,  but the minified one is still not preferred form for modification.
[11:31] <apachelogger> how do you know it's the actual source?
[11:31] <Riddell> "preferred modifiable form" is a key part of the GPL and of archive admin reviews, it shouldn't be a novelty to anyone involved in free software
[11:32] <ScottK> If it's minified, it's not.
[11:32] <apachelogger> right, so if I use shit variables
[11:32] <Riddell> that's your problem
[11:32] <yofel> snele: not yet in :/
[11:33] <snele> yofel: yeah just saw that
[11:33] <apachelogger> Riddell: how is that any different from not using any whitespaces
[11:33] <yofel> ScottK: could you look at sc 4.13.1 in trusty-proposed unapproved please?
[11:33] <apachelogger> this argument is yanked from someones ass I tell you
[11:33] <apachelogger> if I write javascript without whitespaces, will it get rejected?
[11:33] <yofel> if you have a source that has whitespaces, I would say yes
[11:34] <apachelogger> how do you know if I have a source that has whitespaces
[11:34] <ScottK> yofel: after the airplane takes off, if the WiFi works, and if I don't fall asleep,  yes. 
[11:34] <yofel> ok, thanks
[11:35] <yofel> apachelogger: well, I might not, in which case I might not reject it, but if I can find a source from it I would
[11:35] <yofel> *for it
[11:35] <Riddell> apachelogger: if you can write javascript without whitespace I'd be amazed, but then you often do amaze me
[11:36] <ScottK> apachelogger: There was recently a huge debate about this in Debian.   It's pretty well a closed issue. 
[11:37] <ScottK> There is sometimes ambiguity about what's source, but I've yet to see minified JavaScript where it was at all uncertain. 
[11:37] <apachelogger> sometimes?
[11:38] <apachelogger> the entire thing says preferred
[11:38] <ScottK> Yep.
[11:38] <apachelogger> I'd prefer it software to not have shitty variable names
[11:40] <ScottK> If I have a graphic file of some kind, it might have been made in gimp and there's a source.   The gimp file (pcx, IIRC) might have been lost or not save and all you can do is bit edit the graphic file.
[11:42] <ScottK> If you have the pcx that's the source. If you don't then it's the png (or whatever).
[11:42] <apachelogger> no one would ever know
[11:43] <apachelogger> I could have made it from a svg for all you know, I could have made it in kolourpaint, imported the png into svg, exported to png, edited in gimp
[11:43] <ScottK> Yes. So for that kind of file it can be hard to tell. 
[11:44] <apachelogger> I could write fancy fromatted javascript, minified, autoexpanded
[11:44] <apachelogger> you'd also never know
[11:44] <apachelogger> complete bullshit policy
[11:45] <yofel> FWIW: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/08/msg00365.html has pretty much the whole discussion in it already
[11:45] <ScottK> No. Minified JavaScript isn't one of those ambiguous cases. 
[11:45] <apachelogger> ScottK: you have autoexpanded code in the tar
[11:46] <apachelogger> you couldn't possibly tell whether that was autoexpanded or I whether I am terrible at code formatting
[11:47] <yofel> for that matter, shipping jars would be allowed too - you can make jars that can be cleanly decompiled
[11:47] <ScottK> Also related: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2014/04/msg00014.html
[11:48] <ScottK> No.  Jars aren't allowed either. 
[11:48] <yofel> right
[11:48] <apachelogger> yofel: that's not the same thing
[11:48] <apachelogger> I have a png
[11:48] <apachelogger> a run pngcrush on the png
[11:49] <apachelogger> that is now like minified js
[11:49] <ScottK> Gotta go. 
[11:49] <yofel> have a nice trip :)
[11:49] <Riddell> you'd still modify that png fine
[11:49] <apachelogger> Riddell: and you can't modify minified js?
[11:50] <Riddell> no, it's not the preferred form for modifications
[11:50] <apachelogger> it is still js?
[11:50] <apachelogger> just like the png is stilla png after pngcrush, it doesn't magically become an unmodifiable png
[11:50] <yofel> apachelogger: seriously, if you have a problem with this, take this up on debian-devel so the interpretation of the DFSG gets changed, until then it stays that most people believe that minified js is not the preferred form of modification
[11:51] <apachelogger> I have a problem with you people actually supporting that
[11:51] <yofel> well, then a pre-compiled bin is hex-editable as well, as I said that jars are editable too
[11:52] <apachelogger> yofel: my argument is that it is the same thing
[11:52] <apachelogger> it's still js, it's badly formatted js
[11:52] <yofel> so we need to draw *some* line in this very fuzzy definiton of source
[11:52] <apachelogger> it's js
[11:52] <apachelogger> I can edit with the same software I could edit js with
[11:52] <apachelogger> I can read it like I can read js
[11:52] <apachelogger> I can do everything I can do with js
[11:52] <apachelogger> but magically one is considered unacceptable and the other is not
[11:53] <yofel> right, and this was already discussed as there is some point in it. But if we *know* that there is a source for $js, then that source should still be included
[11:53] <apachelogger> and if I wrote the exactly same file originally without ever having used pointless whitespaces or \n it'd also be considered acceptable
[11:53] <yofel> go file a bug against lintian that the check is rubbish and should be removed
[11:54] <apachelogger> [13:51] <apachelogger> I have a problem with you people actually supporting that
[11:54] <apachelogger> if you say you support it because of lintian then I'll ask you to write a manpage for muon-discover please
[11:55] <yofel> If I see 2 js with the same content, and I want to edit it, and you give me the hard to read one, why would I not want the other one plesae?
[11:55] <yofel> apachelogger: missing manpage is not a DFSG issue
[11:55] <Riddell> I feel this discussion is no longer useful, you're against the consensus apachelogger 
[11:56] <apachelogger> yeah
[11:56] <yofel> apachelogger: I don't think that you're completely wrong, but Javascript is a shitpile of special cases sadly
[11:56] <yofel> if people would never have started minfying it we wouldn't have this talk
[11:58] <yofel> apachelogger: so, are you removing the override or should I?
[11:58] <apachelogger> I'll not
[11:58] <yofel> ok, removing
[12:00] <Riddell> more's the question, is agateau fixing upstream or should someone else?
[12:01] <agateau> Riddell: I am happy with adding an unminified jquery version upstream
[12:01] <Riddell> thanks agateau 
[12:12] <agateau> Riddell: Assuming src/jquery contains the unminified version as well as this README: http://paste.kde.org/pbyepm4pm . Would it be good enough?
[12:15] <Riddell> agateau: yep
[12:17] <agateau> Riddell: done
[12:21] <Riddell> sweet, a dist-upgrade to utopic works!
[12:21] <Riddell> deleted trusty packages from next PPA
[12:22] <yofel> dist-upgrade sure works, how does it run? ^^
[12:25] <Riddell> much like trusty
[12:27] <yofel> sweet
[12:35] <Riddell> so blue http://qa.kubuntu.co.uk/kf5-status/build_status_4.100.0_utopic.html
[12:40]  * Riddell uploads ecm
[12:52] <ScottK> yofel: kde4libs for trusty needs a reupload with the SRU bug in debian/changelog
[12:53] <yofel> ScottK: ok, please reject then, I'll re-upload
[12:53] <ScottK> yofel: Already rejected.
[12:53] <yofel> thanks
[12:55] <yofel> Riddell: if you fix things in the PPA SRU packages, please merge your changes into the SRU changelog instead of adding new changelog entries
[12:55] <yofel> the upload script doesn't auto-merge that
[12:57] <yofel> Riddell: also, does the update for kubuntu_add_langpack_path.diff really need to be in trusty?
[13:01] <Riddell> yofel: it did but not now we've moved kf5 stuff to utopic
[13:03] <yofel> I'll remove that from the SRU then, we can have it in the 4.14 backports later on
[13:04] <Riddell> thanks yofel 
[13:12] <yofel> ScottK: new try uploaded
[13:43] <Riddell> "debian/rules:8: *** missing separator (did you mean TAB instead of 8 spaces?).  Stop."
[13:43]  * Riddell looks at apachelogger 
[14:10] <santa_> Riddell: https://code.launchpad.net/~panfaust/kubuntu-packaging-next/kapidox-work/+merge/222328 :P
[14:10] <santa_> realized this yesterday just before going to bed
[14:11] <santa_> I had that problem in my first siduction porting attempt
[14:26] <Riddell> santa_: groovy, that's what I need
[15:01] <ScottK> yofel: accepted libs. I'll do the rest after it builds. 
[15:15] <kubotu> feed branches-next had 25 updates, showing the latest 6
[15:56]  * yofel uploaded lintian versions of pkg-kde-tools to next and ninjas
[15:57] <Riddell> thanks
[16:13] <kubotu> feed branches had 8 updates, showing the latest 6
[16:13] <santa_> I'm building the latest kdeframeworks packages for siduction
[16:14] <santa_> some extra stuff was needed, like libdbusmenuqt, phonon and such
[16:15] <santa_> when it's done I will write you a list in notes.k.o so you would know what would be needed to change in debian if you want them to adopt your packages
[16:16] <kubotu> feed branches-next had 7 updates, showing the latest 6
[16:17] <santa_> http://derp.co.uk/0b11c
[16:17] <santa_> hacked buildd ftw
[16:19] <santa_> btw qt 5.3 is arriving to debian sid
[17:14] <yofel> considering that kf5 is supposed to always pass all tests, the amount of tests that rely on -DBUID_TESTING=TRUE is rather large :(
[18:21] <yofel> santa_: why... xauth?
[18:23] <santa_> yofel: it's needed for the tests apparently
[18:23] <yofel> I don't remember one failing
[18:24] <yofel> 100% tests passed, 0 tests failed out of 13
[18:25] <santa_> yofel: the relevant part of the build log http://paste.kde.org/pzrudvafc also note that this only happens in debian sid
[18:25] <yofel> sounds like a bug in xvfb packaging really
[18:25] <yofel> on ubuntu xvfb depends on xauth
[18:27] <yofel> hm, 
[18:27] <yofel> xvfb recommends xauth in debian
[18:27] <yofel> rather unlucky
[18:27] <yofel> fine then I guess
[18:30] <yofel> yeah, kdelibs autopackagetest config depends on xauth too
[18:46] <yofel> fun, I lost sound after upgrading to utopic :(
[18:46] <yofel> and why do I have 2 pulseaudio processes running :S
[18:48] <genii> Maybe init and init.d both getting ran
[18:48] <yofel> could be
[18:50] <yofel> rc2.d certainly has S05pulseaudio -.-
[18:52] <yofel> still shouldn't be killing my sound device, now it's trying to output over HDMI which obviously won't work
[19:00] <yofel> ok fixed
[19:00] <yofel> now I would like to know why phonon switched sound cards on upgrade :S
[19:35] <BluesKaj> yofel, that happens quite often now, dunno why tho 
[20:00] <ScottK> yofel: All accepted.
[20:00] <yofel> *hugs*
[21:03] <yofel> apachelogger: I just realized something about our patch policy: Where do patches coming from debian fit in there?
[21:03] <yofel> We either just accept them, or we try to get the team to go by the same policy (which I belive will be rejected for reasons that only debian understands), or we blacklist patches as violating our policy
[21:04] <yofel> well, or d) we do the upstreaming - up to the point where a patch gets rejected upstream but debian keeps it anyway
[21:13] <ScottK> Typically we keep them unless the cause an actual problem to keep the diff down. 
[21:17] <yofel> yeah, but our patch policy isn't quite what we've typically been doing, although I guess we can decide after upstream review in those cases
[21:35] <ScottK> Patch policy should rhen also say something about minimizing diff with Debian. 
[21:35] <ScottK> That's an overall Ubuntu project policy. 
[21:36] <yofel> ah right, I guess we can agree on that