[12:51] <CodePulsar> What is the password for joining the IRC channels?
[12:51] <CodePulsar> I've registered at LaunchPad
[12:51] <CodePulsar> How can I join the sessions?
[13:04] <tsimpson-uds> CodePulsar: there is no password
[13:08] <CodePulsar> tsimpson-uds: so is the channel #ubuntu-uos-platform1 or #unbuntu-uds-platform1 ?
[13:08] <CodePulsar> I can't join the former
[13:09] <tsimpson-uds> CodePulsar: just replace -uos- with -uds- for now
[14:54] <d_ed> good afternoon all.
[14:54] <d_ed> I'm the host of the first session in 5 minutes
[14:54] <d_ed> please let me know if there are any problems with the audio/video etc.
[14:57] <CodePulsar> I hear
[14:58] <d_ed> brb, technical difficultied
[14:59] <Trevinho> d_ed: it was working actually...
[15:00] <d_ed> yeah...
[15:00] <d_ed> I realised that afterwards
[15:00] <theretard> Hey guys!
[15:00] <Trevinho> d_ed: you probably need mhall119 to create a new one
[15:01] <d_ed> done
[15:01] <d_ed> ok, please refresh
[15:02] <d_ed> ok, starting
[15:15] <d_ed> Ask me questions here: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/gwkgcskau3hdgbwzseyhezgew4a
[15:17] <kdeuser56> d_ed: anyway to relink it on http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1406/meeting/22262/kde-frameworks-libraries-for-all-qt-users/?
[15:17] <d_ed> I put it in the notes
[15:18] <CodePulsar> QUESTION: Is there a roadmap for the KDE Frameworks modularization process? What has been done, what's being worked on now, who is working on what, what needs to be done in the future, etc.
[15:18] <d_ed> CodePulsar: good question
[15:18] <d_ed> CodePulsar: mostly it's all done
[15:19] <d_ed> we're in our 3rd beta
[15:19] <d_ed> everything is already split
[15:19] <d_ed> and about to be released.
[15:20] <kdeuser56> d_ed: is it planned to merge trier 1 frameworks in Qt in the future? what about the whole k-naming in the classes?
[15:20] <d_ed> we tried where possible to merge
[15:20] <d_ed> we merged a lot
[15:21] <kdeuser56> d_ed: so after all a lot of the k-names remain, which wont change due to the api stability ... wont that cause problems?
[15:22] <CodePulsar> d_ed: awesome, I've found this page: https://community.kde.org/Frameworks/Epics/Splitting_kdelibs which also says "DONE" according to the definition mentioned there.
[15:22] <d_ed> kdeuser56: so anything still in KDE Frameworks still has a K prefix
[15:22] <d_ed> just like Qt stuff has a Q prefix
[15:23] <d_ed> we have a layer for people porting Qt4->Qt5 called KDE4LibsSupport
[15:23] <d_ed> which still has the K* class
[15:24] <d_ed> I can see some more stuff moving into Qt eventually
[15:24] <d_ed> but Qt will never contain everything, Qt would just become too big and clunky.
[15:25] <CodePulsar> From what I understand the definition of Tier1 modules is that they depend only on Qt modules, what is the definition of Tier 2/3/4 modules?
[15:25] <mgraesslin> Tier 2 may only depend on Tier 1
[15:26] <mgraesslin> + Tier 1 deps
[15:26] <mgraesslin> Tier 3 on Tier 2 and Tier 3 frameworks
[15:26] <d_ed> so KTextWidgets which contains a QTextEdit with spellchecking cannot be tier1 because it depends on Sonnet in tier 1
[15:27] <kdeuser56> d_ed: what about high resolution support in the gui related libraries?
[15:27] <d_ed> When Qt patches land that provide the devicePixelRatio then we should "just work"
[15:28] <d_ed> as most the changes happen in QStyle
[15:28] <d_ed> If anything is broken, we'll fix it there and then.
[15:30] <d_ed> CodePulsar: does that answer your question?
[15:31] <CodePulsar> d_ed: yes, thanks
[15:31] <kdeuser56> d_ed:  how do you see the relation of stuff ubuntusdk introduced like conditional layouts and kde frameworks related stuff in the future? will stuff play together well, so that one can use the best of both worlds, without being limited to one platform?
[15:32] <d_ed> kdeuser56: with 95% of stuff, they're completely unrelated.
[15:32] <d_ed> kdeuser56: in the case of plasma-framework, they might clash a bit, but I can't imagine anyone using those two together
[15:33] <d_ed> the whole point of frameworks isn't that you'd want to use all of them, it's to select the bits you do want
[15:37] <d_ed> ok, any more questions?
[15:41] <CodePulsar> d_ed: Where can we find the notes for the talk?
[15:41] <d_ed> it's on the right on http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1406/meeting/22262/kde-frameworks-libraries-for-all-qt-users/
[15:41] <d_ed> the link to the API is the super useful one
[15:44] <mgraesslin> the apidocs work great - I work with them every day
[15:44] <mgraesslin> (even for the API I maintain)
[15:44] <CodePulsar> OpenID Authentication Required loop
[15:47] <d_ed> CodePulsar: on the summit page?
[15:47] <d_ed> I'll post a direct link here
[15:47] <CodePulsar> yes, when trying to access the pad
[15:48] <d_ed> API docs: http://api.kde.org/frameworks-api/frameworks5-apidocs/
[15:48] <d_ed> lists what tier everything is in
[15:48] <d_ed> and the cross-platformability of it
[15:48] <d_ed> Article about Frameworks in general: http://dot.kde.org/2013/09/25/frameworks-5
[15:50] <CodePulsar> great
[15:50] <d_ed> CodePulsar: mind if I ask what you work on?
[15:55] <CodePulsar> d_ed: I haven't worked on the development of KDE as of yet, but I'm a financial contributor. I've used and use Qt at work extensively and I'm interested in contributing back to KDE, development wise.
[15:56] <d_ed> we should take this discussion outside of this channel now
[16:02] <rickspencer3> o/
[16:04] <bregma> sorry folks, looks like some technical issues are happeining....
[16:05] <FunnyLookinHat> Has the hangout video started for anyone else?
[16:05]  * lool switches to looking at some container demo  :-)
[16:05] <lool> FunnyLookinHat: 18:04 < bregma> sorry folks, looks like some technical issues are happeining....
[16:06] <FunnyLookinHat> lool, ty
[16:06] <lool> FunnyLookinHat: will certaily start in a couple of minutes
[16:07] <seb128> if we find somebody able to host a live hangout
[16:07] <seb128> seems like most of us got kicked out by google
[16:08] <dholbach> sorry for the delay - hangout should be up in a bit
[16:09] <Laney> could we do it from a personal account?
[16:09] <seb128> shrug
[16:09] <seb128> I can't even join one!
[16:09] <seb128> it's not only hosting
[16:10] <dholbach> seb128, can you use your normal @gmail.com account?
[16:10] <dholbach> everyone: ^ :)
[16:10] <bregma> have you tried turning it off and then back on?
[16:10] <bschaefer> bregma, that should work
[16:10] <seb128> let me try
[16:11] <seb128> bregma, turn what off and on?
[16:11] <Laney> haha
[16:11] <dshimer> live
[16:11] <Laney> I think that was a troll
[16:11] <seb128> oh, it works after a "clear recent activity" and log in again
[16:11] <Laney> link?
[16:12] <seb128> Laney, see query
[16:12] <Laney> thanks
[16:12] <Laney> twice even!
[16:12] <seb128> hum, I'm alone in there
[16:12] <seb128> that looks wrong
[16:12] <robruos> seb128: I see dholbach and mterry and bregma but not you
[16:13] <dholbach> finally!
[16:13] <dholbach> it just took 13 minutes to get us going!
[16:14] <dholbach> is mterry breaking up for anyone else as well?
[16:14] <bschaefer> mterry, you're going down
[16:14] <Laney> yep
[16:15] <rickspencer3> o/
[16:15] <mterry> seb128, can you hear me?
[16:15] <seb128> indeed
[16:15] <rickspencer3> maybe seb128 can take over?
[16:16] <seb128> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-desktop-next/daily-live/
[16:16] <seb128> blueprint https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/client-1410-unity8-desktop-iso
[16:17]  * Laney DONEs some items ;-)
[16:17] <rickspencer3> rats, I was looking forward to trying it out soon :)
[16:17] <Laney> it got blocked in the train by some other things
[16:17] <Laney> I think those other items are going to be flushed through quite soon
[16:19] <mterry> :(
[16:19] <mterry> :(  I keep losing connection
[16:20] <lool> seb128: FYI there's another system-image for servers session later today
[16:21] <seb128> lool, thanks
[16:23] <hanswurst> where will I be able to download the new iso? Will I be able to run it in Virtualbox in order to test it and report bugs?
[16:24] <dholbach> notes: http://pad.ubuntu.com/ep/pad/view/uos-1406-unity8-desktop-preview-image/latest
[16:24] <mterry> I'm back!
[16:24] <dholbach> sorry, http://pad.ubuntu.com/uos-1406-unity8-desktop-preview-image
[16:24] <Laney> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-desktop-next/daily-live/
[16:25] <Laney> still bad
[16:25] <dholbach> mterry, you're still breaking up
[16:25] <seb128> mterry, no luck :/
[16:26] <mterry> You can't hear me?
[16:26] <mterry> I can hear you, weird
[16:26] <mterry> Well, give me the greeter work items anyway  :)
[16:26] <dholbach> mterry, I believe that's what's happening in the pad already :-P
[16:27] <xnox> hello?
[16:27] <rickspencer3> seems that mterry is not having good luck with hanging out today :)
[16:27] <xnox> is this thing on?!
[16:27] <rickspencer3> xnox, you forgot to tap it first
[16:27]  * rickspencer3 tap tap tap
[16:27] <dshimer> QUESTION: When will this be at a point where a casual but interested user could download install (or run from a live ISO) and report experiences on varying hardware?
[16:27]  * xnox I LOVE ROCK&ROLL
[16:27] <mterry> Guh, there goes my video
[16:28] <Guest22379> Am I understanding correctly, that there will be 2 Ubuntu "Desktop" Versions for 14.10, one running Unity7 and one running Unity8 (Ubuntu Desktop Next)?
[16:28] <dholbach> xnox, want to join the hangout too?
[16:28]  * mterry gives up
[16:28] <bregma> dshimer, "soon" but with the caveat that Mir is still not yet supported on proprietary binary video drivers
[16:29] <xnox> Laney: installer tests would be easy to test -> cause it would be ubiquity preseeding and AP tests
[16:29] <Laney> xnox: what does the pending stuff?
[16:29] <dholbach> Guest22379, unity8 currently just works on the phone and tablet, the discussion is about offering an optional desktop session image for the release, so we can test and play around with this more easily, etc
[16:29] <Laney> or, what tests does it run?
[16:29] <xnox> Laney: desktop live-session is never tested, but rather a system is installed, booted and then after the reboot the "typical user account" is tested for basic functionality
[16:29] <xnox> Laney: yes, some of these tests block pending -> current migration
[16:29] <Laney> no testing of live?
[16:30] <xnox> Laney: all automated preseeding must pass
[16:30] <xnox> Laney: plus desktop tests post install must also pass
[16:30] <xnox> (which also includes e.g. OEM)
[16:30] <xnox> Laney: there is no way to test live-session (try-ubuntu) at the moment.
[16:30] <xnox> bregma: correct
[16:30] <Laney> okay
[16:30] <Laney> I think installing should work
[16:30] <Laney> so it's probably alright to re-use some of this
[16:31] <xnox> bregma: i can work on the installer
[16:31] <dholbach> xnox, want to join the session?
[16:31] <xnox> bregma: Laney: .... if gtk3-mir support is built into that image, e.g. via a ppa?!
[16:31] <xnox> dholbach: nah, i have bad hair day
[16:31] <Guest22379> will there be a session dedicated to the visual design of unity8 on the desktop. I take it there will be some changes compared to unity7
[16:31] <Laney> installing in only-ubiquity by now
[16:31] <dholbach> oh well, I tried
[16:32] <Laney> s/by/for/
[16:32] <xnox> seb128: feel free to give some of them to me (e.g. installer / testing etc....)
[16:32] <seb128> xnox, thanks
[16:32] <Laney> I don't know when gtk3 will be ready, but I don't expect installnig from the live session to be a priority at the start
[16:33] <xnox> Guest22379: this is pure engineering session, rather than design/ux/etc
[16:33] <seb128> mterry, do you plan to look at making the phone greeter work on desktop?
[16:34] <seb128> the few bugs we talked about in Malta that need to be fixed at least
[16:34] <mterry> seb128, I added a work item to the BP for it
[16:34] <seb128> mterry, ok, I'm taking notes on http://pad.ubuntu.com/uos-1406-unity8-desktop-preview-image
[16:34] <seb128> workitems as well
[16:34] <mterry> seb128, priority is phone, but I want to fix this for desktop too obvi
[16:34] <mterry> seb128, oh ok
[16:34] <seb128> k
[16:35] <seb128> that didn't seem to be too much work, we just tweaked the qpa and some other minor things
[16:35] <xnox> Laney: does desktop-next image auto-logins now? (as in did your patches land?!)
[16:35] <Laney> not yet
[16:35] <Laney> train delays
[16:35] <Laney> leaves on the line or something like that
[16:35] <xnox> Laney: ack, but i guess it can't boot into "only-ubiquity" can it?
[16:36] <Laney> can't?
[16:36] <Guest22379> how can I help with testing?
[16:36] <Laney> it probably can, you select that before booting
[16:36] <Laney> but I haven't tried it I'm afraid
[16:36] <xnox> Laney: because there is no X & ubiquity doesn't have X dependency
[16:36] <Laney> no X ?http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-desktop-next/daily-live/pending/utopic-desktop-amd64.manifest
[16:36] <xnox> Laney: (even if that would be on the image only and not actually installed to disk, nor runable in the live-session)
[16:37] <xnox> Laney: ok.
[16:37] <xnox> Laney: so i should get cracking on the installation front.
[16:37] <Guest22379> is there a version of apport or similiar for this image?
[16:37] <xnox> bregma: $ ubuntu-bug ubiquity
[16:37] <xnox> bregma: if the iso doesn't boot, doesn't install, crashes live session ^
[16:37] <leftyfb> I'm just jumping into the session now ....  will MIR be able to do X forwarding? As in over ssh? That's a feature I use very often.
[16:37] <xnox> bregma: all should go to ubiquity, and then redirect =)
[16:39] <seb128> dholbach, thanks for hosting
[16:39] <dholbach> leftyfb, not sure if people know, but you could try asking on #ubuntu-mir as well
[16:39] <seb128> mterry, way to sneak out!
[16:39] <dholbach> seb128, anytime
[16:39] <mterry> :)
[16:39] <mterry> seb128, dholbach: sorry about that!  Thanks for saving me
[16:41]  * mterry goes to a coffee shop for better internet  :(
[16:41] <rtwert> is there a login and pw for the new image
[16:42] <rtwert> i just installed it and can't get past the greeter
[18:59] <stgraber> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYdKGQui2ypMnKFITIpq_WXCp2VL6hBywLvxBs38a4xtIRLfVw?authuser=0&hl=en
[19:00] <jamespage> o/
[19:00] <stgraber> hangout url is https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYdKGQui2ypMnKFITIpq_WXCp2VL6hBywLvxBs38a4xtIRLfVw?authuser=0&hl=en
[19:01] <cjwatson> Do we have a G+ link?
[19:01] <stgraber> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYdKGQui2ypMnKFITIpq_WXCp2VL6hBywLvxBs38a4xtIRLfVw?authuser=0&hl=en
[19:01] <barry> stgraber: i got an error with that one
[19:02] <cjwatson> wfm
[19:03] <barry> dang
[19:03] <asac> o/
[19:03] <stgraber> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYdKGQui2ypMnKFITIpq_WXCp2VL6hBywLvxBs38a4xtIRLfVw?authuser=0&hl=en
[19:04] <dholbach> you are live! :)
[19:04] <barry> yeah, it keeps erroring on me.  guess i'll just particpate this way
[19:04] <lool> I also have bandwidth issue
[19:05] <lool> cant open the ho, but will see the yt stream
[19:11] <lool> cant we handle everything from a specific initrd rather than relying on bootloader?
[19:11] <lool> like, checking system files to decide between recovery and regular boor
[19:11] <lool> *boot
[19:15] <lool> stgraber: is it worth discussing the UID changes issue? this happened again in recent images
[19:16] <stgraber> lool: I don't think so, this isn't really server specific but a generic issue we need to resolve
[19:19] <gQuigs> I don't quite understand the benefit of this for the server...  we want servers to go towards no reboots as opposed to more...
[19:19] <lool> gQuigs: the point is avoiding the random combinations of packages breaking the upgrade
[19:19] <lool> a single wholesale upgrade from v1 of the OS to v2
[19:20] <gQuigs> lool: oh
[19:20] <gQuigs> can we do kexec to the next image then?
[19:20] <lool> also, more efficient as you're not running all the upgrade scripts, just applying a big OS delta
[19:20] <lool> gQuigs: linux is just one thing, most of the system image bits are to update all OS files
[19:20] <gQuigs> lool: this only works if people are upgrading in about the same timeframe?
[19:21] <lool> gQuigs: we keep a set of deltas; this is flexible to any base version scheme we want to support; worst case you download a full image
[19:21] <lool> that is, you download the whole v2 files
[19:21] <gQuigs> lool: cool :)
[19:21] <cjwatson> I think in general FWIW this is mainly aimed at some very limited use cases, certainly for now
[19:21] <cjwatson> more like the kind of embedded server arena
[19:22] <gQuigs> cjwatson: ah, ok
[19:22] <barry> the question then is whether the embedded server target market will have that slow bios step
[19:22] <cjwatson> not that I want to limit people's creativity but it might help to keep the scope fairly narrow so that it's achieveable ...
[19:22] <barry> not that embeddeds are super fast rebooters
[19:22] <lool> barry: server BIOSes are not super fast
[19:23] <barry> lool: right
[19:23] <cjwatson> understatement
[19:23] <barry> but e.g. your fridge might not have a bios :)
[19:23] <lool> perhaps I'm unlucky, but it seems to me server boot is designed to be debuggable and reliable and hence is slow
[19:24] <gQuigs> +1 on the LXC juju idea
[19:24] <lool> I wonder whether we ought to design something more along the lines of super minimal linux + initrd that is only rarely rebooted, and system-image updates of containers started by this minimal linux + initrd; linux+initrd only updated/restarted less frequently
[19:24] <lool> ah well, I'm lagging I guess :)
[19:25] <gQuigs> would one of the goals be to make it easy for an end user to customize an image to their need?
[19:26] <gQuigs> (aka for a deployment to 1000 embeded nodes)
[19:26] <barry> gQuigs: not a goal per se, but doable
[19:27] <barry> we already have people experimenting with custom images for touch
[19:27] <gQuigs> barry: awesome :)
[19:30] <lool> do we have the list of clicks we want to demo this way?
[19:31] <jdstrand> that is what we do with apparmor
[19:31] <jdstrand> (use an intermediate format for something on the system)
[19:32] <cjwatson> right
[19:32] <cjwatson> lool: well, I doubt any existing click packages would be appropriate
[19:34] <lool> cjwatson: sorry, I was asking which services we would want to clickify (see pad)
[19:34] <jdstrand> currently, apps must do upgrades themselves
[19:35] <jdstrand> (eg, if an app changes frameworks, it is expected to handle that upgrade itself)
[19:35] <jdstrand> (eg, db formot change)
[19:36] <jdstrand> s/formot/format/
[19:36] <asac> jdstrand: iirc we said click might grow hooks for this stuff, yes
[19:36] <jdstrand> sure, just saying what the state is now
[19:36] <asac> for restart, data migration etc.
[19:36] <lool> hmm
[19:37] <asac> right, for daemons we surely need to do something
[19:37] <jdstrand> yeah
[19:37] <asac> lool: you disagree?
[19:37] <cjwatson> right, though I want to steer away from the maintainer script path
[19:37] <asac> :)
[19:37] <asac> yes!!
[19:37] <asac> please no free form scripts :)
[19:37] <jdstrand> indeed
[19:37] <cjwatson> but we need something for data migration
[19:37] <asac> just export: i am a daemon that needs restart :)
[19:37] <cjwatson> no there definitely has to be some capability for free-form
[19:37] <cjwatson> but just not in the same way
[19:37] <asac> yeah, data migration for sure
[19:38] <cjwatson> I don't think we can do fully declarative data migration :)
[19:39] <cjwatson> restart of course can be declarative and in fact shouldn't even need declaring
[19:39] <cjwatson> if your package ships a service and it's upgraded, it fairly obviously wants to be restarted IMO
[19:40] <cjwatson> and we just delegate the hard work of that to systemd
[19:40] <barry> cjwatson: it's possible you want to apply update now but reboot at a more convenient time
[19:40] <barry> *restart
[19:40] <cjwatson> reboot yes, restart individual service I don't really think so
[19:40] <cjwatson> we restart services on dpkg upgrades today
[19:41] <barry> true.  yeah possibly so
[19:41] <cjwatson> and it's generally a lot less confusing than not doing so :)
[19:41] <asac> cjwatson: right, but arent there services that need to be stopped before the unpack (preinst) and other services that just get restarted after?
[19:42] <cjwatson> it's more a question of services that need to stay down for only short periods of time if at all, and ones where it doesn't matter
[19:42] <lool> hmm should be different dirs anyway
[19:42] <cjwatson> I think in the system-image/click model, just restarting everything after upgrade would be fine
[19:42] <cjwatson> bearing in mind that the library linkage graph is much simpler
[19:43] <cjwatson> any libraries you need are either in the click package, or they're applied en masse by the system-image upgrade
[19:45] <asac> just note down what needs doing and who would be best, we figure out priority etc. later :)
[19:45] <lool> happy to help there
[19:48] <rsalveti> yup, would be fine to do some clean up
[19:49] <rsalveti> but it'll change a bit as well once we start supporting the device with a proper partitioning scheme
[19:56] <asac> yeah, idea was to get a fully usable system on usb key (including upgrades)
[20:01] <asac> thanks!
[20:01] <rsalveti> thanks
[20:01] <asac> stgraber: slangasek: mvo: jamespage: cjwatson: ^ thanks ^
[20:01] <asac> have to review notes if something big was missing :)