[07:48] hm, sorry, as i was away, i lost track of that a bit, what's the status of the xfpm/lls SRU for trusty? [08:04] i haven't heard any news. [08:05] well according to trello it's still "todo" [08:05] i've told bluesabre and friends i'm available if they need people to be poked or sth [08:05] although i thought it should be at least "doing" [08:05] i guess. i'd really want it in to be able to stop telling people to read the release notes, and that the fix in the way [08:06] it just sounds silly stupid that we have the fix for the most critical bug in an LTS release and it's not uploaded... [08:06] i can't do any of the uploading or other technical stuff, but i'm still willing to help with the social and bureaucratical/process side [08:07] from what i see now, it has been nominated for SRU already by Noskcaj [08:07] okay [08:07] so the fix is already in utopic [08:08] no idea who to poke about the SRU now [08:08] yay, bug 266391 [08:08] i guess one of the usual suspects/uploaders? [08:09] bug 266391 in GNU Mailman "difficult to use radio and check boxes in admin interface" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/266391 [08:09] now if we only get canonical to upgrade to 2.1.19 ;) [08:09] (when it's out) [08:09] ochosi, i can look at it if you want, but not right now [08:09] sure, thanks! [08:10] ochosi, if you want to do $things to make it progress, i'd suggest reading the SRU docs [08:10] already marked as sru: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-power-manager/+bug/1303736 [08:10] Ubuntu bug 1303736 in xfce4-power-manager "[SRU] Black screen after wakeup from suspending by closing the laptop lid" [Undecided,New] [08:10] which is what i will do when i get back and look at it ;) [08:10] sounds good [08:10] meh, actually i'll just have a look right now [08:11] well to begin with, the bug doesn't follow the SRU bug template [08:12] also just marking the bug to start with [SRU] does *nothing* [08:12] the sru team does not track that [08:12] sru team is not subscribed [08:12] there is no tag that they follow [08:13] i'd suggest filing a new bug JUST for the SRU [08:14] to get the things right, have the right tags, subscribe the right people/teams and to be able to work on the SRU verification more easily (the original bug is full of comments already) [08:16] Noskcaj: ^ === zequence_ is now known as zequence [08:20] i acknowledge is boring, and that it might feel hard, but it's not really overwhelmingly difficult to follow the procedure [08:22] +1[5~ [08:22] errr [08:22] +1 [08:22] :) [08:22] (this ^ was not another encoding problem ;)) [08:24] heh [11:47] ochosi/knome [11:47] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-power-manager/+bug/1326740 [11:47] Ubuntu bug 1326740 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu Trusty) "[SRU] Please backport xfce4-power-manager 1.2.0-3ubuntu6 to trusty" [Undecided,In progress] [11:47] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-locker-settings/+bug/1326741 [11:47] Ubuntu bug 1326741 in light-locker-settings (Ubuntu Trusty) "[SRU] Please backport light-locker-settings 1.2.1-0ubuntu2 to trusty" [Undecided,In progress] [11:48] both uploaded to -proposed and nominated for SRU [11:57] Logan_, did you get a chance to upload this to proposed? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/menulibre/+bug/1323405 [11:57] Ubuntu bug 1323405 in menulibre (Ubuntu Trusty) "[SRU] Please backport menulibre-2.0.4 to trusty" [Undecided,New] [12:01] bluesabre, cheers [12:40] ah good, please keep the status of these things up-to-date in trello [12:40] otherwise what good is it [15:56] knome: hey, say have you ever heard of scrollback? [15:56] could be a nice (modern) replacement for the freenode webirc [15:57] http://next.scrollback.io/ [16:01] as an example for embedding scrollback: http://next.scrollback.io/t/numix/http://xubuntu.org/ [16:05] can it/how does it log to http://irclogs.ubuntu.com [16:15] elfy: it doesn't really take over irc, it just embeds/includes it [16:16] so from how i understand it, it's like webirc in that respect [16:16] so it would still be freenode and the normal channel? [16:16] yeah [16:17] just a different way of accessing it [16:17] ok - just checking - that'd be my only issue with it :) [16:17] it can also search and group stuff from what i've read, and include certain twitter hashtags [16:18] what's twitter ... [16:18] * ochosi has no idea [16:18] i only read about it on the tubes [16:18] * elfy neither [16:18] seems to be some new truck or something [16:18] aaah - ok - works for me then :D [16:20] ochosi, heh, i thought you were ralking about scrollback scrollback :P [16:20] ochosi, no, i haven't heard of the scrollback project [16:21] seems that mozilla is also using it in several places [16:22] it looks like really clunky [16:22] that is, not really preserving screen space [16:22] i'd imagine it being horrible to try to get support with that wdiget [16:22] or even the "fullscreen" mode! === brainwash_ is now known as brainwash [20:00] o/ [20:00] meeting time, friends [20:00] #startmeeting [20:00] Meeting started Tue Jun 10 20:01:12 2014 UTC. The chair is pleia2. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [20:00] Available commands: action commands idea info link nick [20:00] who all is here for our Xubuntu team meeting? :) [20:01] o/ ish [20:02] o/ [20:02] alright, the rest can trickle in then [20:02] #topic Open action items [20:02] knome (and everyone else without accounts yet) - did you sign up for trello? [20:03] if so, let elfy know your name there so he can add you to the boards we want to add you to [20:04] that was the only open action item outstanding, so we'll let it go moving forward and bug people outside of meetings if they still need to sign up :) [20:04] pleia2: it's knome only I think - skellat and micah are elsewhere afaik [20:04] ok, thanks [20:04] #topic Team updates [20:05] * elfy can do that really quickly this week [20:05] thanks [20:05] #info marketing flyer completion is still pending, content is done, we just need to line up sides for printing [20:05] #info Image has been uninstallable up until today - nothing has been done, no testing calls went out - normal service appears to have resumed [20:06] anything else? Noskcaj or Unit193? [20:07] Not that I can think of. [20:07] pleia2, I've got nothing [20:07] alrighty [20:07] #topic Discussion [20:07] #subtopic Proposal: Use some team money for printing up flyers [20:08] knome and ochosi were talking a bit about the money that is being held for the team (a couple hundred dollars or so): http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/06/09/%23xubuntu-devel.html#t08:03 [20:09] a few ideas came up for marketing, one was printing flyers to give out at conferences, another was printing t-shirts to team members to show appreciation for participation in the project (and yay xubuntu) [20:09] since the flyers are almost done and I attend a lot of conferences, I was hoping to get some feedback on a proposal to print some xubuntu flyers [20:10] also worthy of note: we spent $40 on the StartUbuntu ones that went down well at SCaLE earlier this year [20:10] at this point I'd pretty much +1 anything to stop us having to talk about it [20:11] alright then, any strong opposition? [20:11] T-Shirts would be nice [20:11] aye to t-shirts [20:11] pleia2: I'd suggest mailing listing it for TEAM [20:11] the proposal as discussed was t-shirts given to the folks on this team: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/06/09/%23xubuntu-devel.html#t08:03 [20:12] err [20:12] but I'd +1 t-shirts/more flyers [20:12] https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-team/+members#active [20:12] making them more generally available for sale is harder [20:12] +1 to any marketing stuff [20:12] (we'd have to go to a vendor that is reasonably priced and ships internationally, we've gone around this topic a few times) [20:13] alright, well people seem happy with marketing stuff in general then, so that's mostly what I wanted from this topic [20:13] #subtopic Any other business [20:13] anyone else have anything they want to bring up? [20:14] not from me [20:14] oh yea [20:14] you sort of alluded to it earlier - I'd concur - is there any point at all in weekly meetings at the moment? [20:14] I'd say not [20:14] agreed [20:14] agreed [20:15] next meeting in 2 weeks then? [20:15] elfy: you're our lucky chair next time! [20:15] #action elfy to schedule and announce next meeting [20:15] ACTION: elfy to schedule and announce next meeting [20:15] sounds good to me [20:16] yep - will do that some point soon - somewhen in wk26 [20:16] ok, thanks everyone [20:16] #endmeeting [20:16] Meeting ended Tue Jun 10 20:16:43 2014 UTC. [20:16] Minutes: http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2014/xubuntu-devel.2014-06-10-20.01.moin.txt [20:16] thanks pleia2 :) [20:16] sure thing :) [20:17] almost as quick as mine's going to be :p [20:17] hehe [20:17] I will probably be off in some exotic location (or on a plane) during the next meeting [20:18] * elfy realises he's on holiday that week - it will be some random time I think [20:19] pleia2, i hope your plane has better inflight entertainment then what i had to endure. 10 hours with the only movie on offer was despicable me 2 on a loop [20:20] lderan: thanks, I'm flying lufthansa and they tend to have decent selection [20:20] but in german? [20:21] haha [20:21] not all of them :) [20:21] ta da! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings/Archive/Minutes/2014-06-10 [20:22] awesome [20:22] Well, short meeting indeed. [20:23] * elfy reported 2 hexchat bugs the other day Unit193 [20:23] both pita :( [20:45] elfy, i'm now registered to trello via my google account at pasi @ shimmerproject.org [20:46] knome: added [20:46] * Unit193 symlinks pasi to knome. [20:46] ta === DalekSec_ is now known as DalekSec === halfie_ is now known as halfie [21:09] sorry i returned too late :/ [21:10] thanks for holding the meeting pleia2 [21:10] sure thing [21:11] problem is that i'm abroad for another 3 weeks, so the farewell occasions have already started... [21:11] ochosi: you cool with us going twice a month for the moment? === cojennin__ is now known as cojennin [21:11] elfy: yeah, makes sense. i think it's ok that this is a more quiet cycle [21:11] we have a bit to digest from last cycle [21:11] quiet? [21:11] moribund almost :p [21:11] well i'm heavily invested upstream in xfce [21:11] but yea - last cycle was rather busy :) [21:12] so is bluesabre [21:12] and then there is the general quietness of ubuntu folks after LTS [21:12] plus the new focus on phone [21:12] yep - not complaining :) [21:13] and knome dropping all the balls he learned to juggle during the last few years on me in a week or so.. [21:13] :) [21:13] * ochosi is a padavan and much to learn he has [21:13] image installs now by the way [21:13] sweet [21:13] still not right - but does install [21:13] well, that's something to hold on to i guess [21:14] :) [21:14] what troubles are we still in? [21:14] no choice at beginning for language, no choice to try or install - basically - it boots to the desktop [21:14] but I suspect that will be *buntu - not just us [21:15] yeah, sounds more general [21:15] not had time to double check on that [21:15] i heard gtk3.12 has landed meanwhile [21:15] do you know anything about upower0.99? [21:15] once I am sure it's not just us we can kinda forget that issue [21:15] nothing [21:16] * ochosi checks trello [21:17] upower 0.99 is waiting on xfce-session, some gnome stuff, and the removal of wmbattery [21:17] but is it in utopic already? [21:17] or is it up to us to decide which version we wanna ship? [21:17] ii upower 0.9.23-2ubun [21:18] * ochosi wishes he were Unit193 with his magic ubottu skills pulling up package versions per release [21:18] ochosi, we'll be shipping 0.99, but its not in utopic yet [21:18] !info upower utopic-proposed [21:18] Package upower does not exist in utopic-proposed [21:18] it's in my PPA and debian experimental [21:19] Heh, guessed it was in proposed... [21:19] and gtk3.12 is currently FTBFS exerywhere [21:19] ftbfs? [21:20] Unit193: thanks for trying though ;) [21:20] ochosi: it is at least Ubuntu as well as us [21:20] humm right [21:20] ochosi: It'd not be in normal repos since things aren't ready for it. In development releases, things get stacked in proposed until the migration is finished, [21:20] well i talked with satya today about getting our themes in shape for 3.12 [21:21] there are basically two options [21:21] Numix++ [21:21] 1) rewrite them completely using sass (a css pre-processor) [21:21] 2) port them so they work [21:21] it seems that adwaita is being ported to 1), so this might be the more sustainable option [21:21] but also *lots_of_work* [21:22] so yeah, if you know any themers or ppl who wanna contribute to artwork, send them my way [21:23] any reason why sass? [21:23] we'd mostly follow adwaita because that means you can follow the development of gtk3 more easily [21:23] and since they're considering to port to sass... [21:23] (considering = there is already a branch) [21:26] ochosi, since you do upstream stuff, could you see what's needed for xfce-session to do the upower transition (there are 4 different patches in the bugzilla) [21:26] i can rewrite css as sass if that is helpful [21:27] Noskcaj: ok, i'll discuss it with eric [21:27] awesome [21:28] And then we'll be all ready for upower [21:28] ali1234: i think it would be useful [21:28] how exactly does porting them to sass make them work in 3.12 tho? [21:28] i mean in the end, won't you just get the same css? [21:28] https://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-themes-standard/tree/themes/Adwaita?h=wip/sass [21:29] you will, the main advantage is staying in sync with adwaita [21:29] why "in sync" [21:29] i know a lot about css but nothing at all about how gtk themes work [21:33] ochosi, knome: In response to the SRU question yesterday, I made one bug, no realising bluesabre had already done it, so i've just left my SRU [21:33] *not [21:43] ali1234: well gtk3 themes don't work very differently from how you'd expect css to work [21:44] you have a more limited set of options in comparison to the web [21:44] but generally you style widget classes [21:44] or named widgets [21:44] yeah i get that much [21:44] in gtk2 things are really different, but i guess it's totally not worth it to explain that to anyone anymore [21:44] but why do you need to be "in sync" with adwaita? [21:45] because gtk3-development = gnome3 development and adwaita = gnome3 default theme [21:45] so you want to be in sync with gtk3 [21:45] ofc [21:45] what does that have to do with adeaita? [21:45] it's the only official gtk3 theme in a way [21:46] do you just want to @import all of adwaita using sass, and then tweak it? [21:46] because adwaita uses its own gtk3 engine, and we use the default engine [21:47] so how does keeping shimmer themes "in sync" with adwaita help? [21:47] and what exactly does it mean for them to be in sync? [21:47] GTK3 changes so often that it gets hard to follow, so you just follow Adwaita? [21:48] yeah, basically that ^ [21:48] can you make a gtk engine that doesn't support css? [21:48] you mean a gtk3 engine? [21:48] yes, one where the appearence is just hard coded [21:48] i guess you could [21:49] under the hood, gtk3 is still drawn with cairo afaik, so ofc you can hardcode everything [21:49] yeah, that would have no benefit if you still used cairo [21:50] you'd just be hardcoding the css, no performance increase there [21:50] but that's the beauty of gtk3 that you can use the common css syntax [21:50] it really makes things a lot more flexible than with gtk2 [21:50] ochosi: Can you make it to the next meeting? [21:50] Unit193: i'll try my best, but it hasn't been scheduled yet, so... [21:51] i would prefer a desktop that has no themes but runs fast [21:51] ochosi: Wondering as I'd like $us to review the seed change proposals, so we can get any in and upload, and move on with the -core testing. [21:51] ochosi: I should be about all day during that week - so if a particular time/day suits you - let me know :) [21:52] night [21:52] elfy: Good night. [21:52] crap, elfy is *fast* [21:53] ali1234: well, "no themes"... all toolkits support themes, you can simply try to use either no engine or a very slim one [21:53] they didn't used to [21:54] i thinking windows 3.1 here [21:54] well even gtk1 did support some theming options [21:54] heh [21:54] you can change some constants like colours [21:54] that's it [21:54] that's like installing solely gtk2 but no engines or themes [21:54] it's really faster [21:54] and you can only change colors mostly [21:55] so can you do that on gtk3 by making an engine? [21:55] or are you forced to use cairo? [21:55] no, well, i dunno how gtk2 itself did draw the widgets [21:55] i never looked into the source of that [21:55] but gtk3 itself and the various engines draw the widgets with cairo [21:55] well, it had engines, but they were different [21:56] the syntax for customizing them was different [21:56] the engines themselves, not so sure [21:56] meanwhile, sure. but in the beginning, gtk3 was mostly another iteration of gtk2 from what i understood [21:57] all the engines had to be rewritten, i know that [21:57] yeah, to use more cairo [21:57] and most of them weren't [21:57] or it took ages [21:57] and less other stuff [21:57] they werent rewritten because the default engine supplied most of the options of existing gtk2 themes [21:57] so the idea was to get rid of engines [21:58] but gnome3 itself is actually destroying that idea by keeping adwaita [21:58] ubuntu wanted to get rid of unity for ages [21:58] cimi abandoned it at least 4 cycles ago [21:58] which is why we switched to the default engine (meh, lots of work) [21:59] anyway, engines only draw on top of the default engine, i don't know of any tests that prove that any engine is faster than the default [21:59] well, not having to parse a load of css would certainly make it faster [21:59] it's not that much css [21:59] also not drawing everything using vector graphics and then converting it to bitmaps [22:00] and gnome3 isn't parsing css, they have a kinda compiled format [22:00] the amount of css doesn't matter, it's the existence of a css engine that makes it slow [22:00] every time you draw something you have to look up if there is a rule to affect the way it is drawn [22:00] simply not doing that would be a performance increase [22:00] we could also use that compiled format and save some energy with it, but it makes maintenance a little harder (not much though) [22:01] nah, go with sass [22:01] i think there are more efficient ways to improve performance [22:01] it makes css much less annoying [22:01] tbh css is okay if you know how to use it [22:01] css is okay except for the fact it doesn't have constants or nested selectors [22:01] e.g. use a web browser that doesn't eat your cpu or ram or gpu and don't watch too many clips in flash format [22:01] which is why sass/less exist [22:02] what do you mean by nested selectors? [22:02] having no constants actually makes you write better and less redundant css.. [22:02] well at least how i see it. [22:03] i think better css isn't necessarily what ali1234 is aiming at [22:03] i understand [22:03] it's more: hardcoded visuals and less queries for "how should it look" [22:03] but i'm not even sure that's possible with gtk3 [22:03] two different things [22:04] or, if it is, if there's any gain [22:04] having no constants means you have to find and replace s/#eef/#dde/g on all your css every time you change a colour [22:04] ali1234, you missed my point. [22:04] why would you want to specify that in a million places? [22:05] because you might use that colour on more than one element [22:05] and you want to change them all because they are supposed to match [22:05] yeah, so: p, h1, h2 ... [22:05] { color: red; } [22:05] ta-dah! [22:05] yeah what if you don't want all p to be red [22:05] well, my point is this [22:06] you should always do good generic rules [22:06] and overwrite those as little as possible [22:06] so yeah, just do p.something { color: green; } then [22:06] and h2.somethingelse [22:07] but if you need to overwrite loads of stuff, maybe you should *think again* if that's really what the design is asking for [22:07] then you end up with stuff like p.something, p.somethingelse, p.anotherthing > img, body > p.blah, ... and it just goes on forever [22:07] that's where nested selectors come in [22:07] i don't. [22:07] just *don't do that* [22:07] there is no way to avoid it [22:08] if you have a set of things scattered all over the place that need similar styling but are something completely different from each other, maybe you should really add a class to reuse for those. [22:09] this is especially true when you're trying to theme something like wordpress, where you have almost no control over what classes are in the markup [22:09] .alis_red_links [22:09] with premade themes, yeah... [22:09] but if the theme is half-good, you don't end up with loads and loads of overwrites [22:09] no, the markup is supposed to be semantic [22:09] if you have stuff like

then you are doing it wrong [22:10] unless you want very specific micro-control over things, in which case you need your own theme [22:10] well, obviously that was a bad example [22:10] the class name should be highlight or something [22:10] even if you write your own theme, you still can't control stuff like the classes used on lists, menus, links, etc [22:10] you can. [22:10] though the classes used on menus are good enough as they are [22:10] yeah, because they are semantic [22:11] but you know, nested selectors wouldn't help in your case [22:11] which is: [22:11] p.something, p.somethingelse, [22:11] p.anotherthing > img, body > p.blah, ... [22:13] i can agree there are some real life use cases where something like nested selectors would be useful, but those situations are scarse.. [22:14] they improve readability of the code everywhere [22:14] that's debatable. [22:15] and i personally think that if you need to heavily use them, they are starting to create more mess [22:15] and then you also are doing most probably something wrong [22:19] here is some actual less code: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7625790/ [22:19] there is no way to rewrite this in pure css and have it shorter and with less duplication [22:19] i know less. [22:20] i'm not saying the css frameworks are useless [22:54] knome: i think we could move the 14.04.1 stuff to a new board [22:54] then things would be a bit more vertical [22:54] that's not the issue... :) [22:55] i'll just stylish it. [22:58] ochosi: Thought of that idea before as well. [22:59] knome: let's get a solution that benefits all though... [23:03] ochosi, i can share ;) [23:03] and you can drop the 14.04.1 stuff. [23:03] well hopefully we can drop it soon [23:03] knome already credited all the translators. :D [23:03] right now, i don't see much benefit in it sitting there [23:04] not really... [23:06] great news Unit193 [23:07] Unit193: can I then mark that as done? [23:07] slickymaster: Sorry, sarcasm. [23:07] Though it is almost done, IIRC. [23:11] :( [23:45] hey folks [23:45] hey bluesabre [23:47] ahoj bluesabre [23:47] how are things? [23:51] good, about to go to bed [23:52] rolling over here bluesabre, how about yourself? [23:52] pretty good [23:53] trying to keep up with everything [23:53] which isn't always easy :)