=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-platform-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1406/platform-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/06/11/%23ubuntu-uds-platform-1.html === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-platform-1 to: Track: Ubuntu Development | How to get your patch into Debian & ubuntu | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1406/meeting/22303/how-to-get-your-path-into-debian-ubuntu/ [13:58] Hello [13:58] Dia dhuit [13:59] cjwatson: how to best do google doc presentations? [13:59] * xnox is doing it via screenshare so far [13:59] o/ [13:59] Not sure, I expect I'll find out tomorrow [13:59] I think I used screenshare last time ... [14:00] where are hangout urls in this thing? [14:00] or i don't think people want to join, as it's a presentation [14:00] Even with a presentation sometimes it's easier to take questions with people on a hangout [14:00] Since youtube lag [14:01] https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/10SbMhkHuTpgVEncv8Fp_A8is0stDKwuMiCAYEFNiw40/edit?usp=sharing [14:18] Question time =) [14:19] I know there are at least 7 live viewers and a few people here =) [14:19] (The stream has caught up with your request for questions) [14:19] No questions from my side, it was a nice overview of the process :) [14:19] cjwatson: yeap, quite a lag [14:20] sil2100: cool. [14:20] OK, I'll hop over and see what's going on elsewhere then :) [14:20] Thanks [14:20] Btw, sil2100 will be participating in the next session in community-1 talking about CI-train / merge-proposals and etc =) === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-platform-1 to: Track: Ubuntu Development | Webapps Roadmap | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1406/meeting/22300/webapps-roadmap/ [14:56] cjwatson: yeah screenshare is the only way to "present" the presentation. The "drive" app in the hangout is for collaborative editing of the documents inside the hangout, it's not for "on-air" presenting. [14:56] i think for next session, i'll join into the hangout from another hangout to act as the "presenter screen" [15:17] * dbarth waves [15:17] please prefix you questions with QUESTION [15:17] and we'll take them in order [15:18] QUESTION: will the new header be "suppressable" for webapps that use their own header already ? [15:18] (like 80% of the ones we have today) [15:23] thanks ! that answers my question [15:24] yw :) === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-platform-1 to: Track: Ubuntu Development | Utopic UE-Core Roadmap | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1406/meeting/22264/utopic-ue-core-roadmap/ [15:57] o/ [15:59] yo, just waiting for the crew to file into the hangout... [16:00] * rsalveti waves [16:07] yes [16:07] it works [16:07] yes [16:07] go go go! :) [16:07] We can hear you [16:07] lag of 10s ;-) [16:07] that plant dancing in the background is hilarious [16:07] ogasawara: ack [16:07] ogasawara: I thought you would finish "good morning, good afternoon, good evening wherever you are" with "this is the BBC world service" cause they always use that phrase with "wherever you are" [16:32] cant see the slide :) [16:32] ogasawara: ^ [16:32] no, keep the "phonedations team" name! [16:33] asac: thanks [16:33] hmm. still not, but guess its lag [16:33] ah now! [16:33] thanks! [16:33] thats dholbach's fault ... he did set the lag above [16:33] :) [16:34] ogra_, and I thought there'd be one day where I'm not trolled by someone :-P [16:34] never! [16:34] not with ogra_ around :-P [16:34] haha [16:36] OMG, I have MMS =) [16:36] *hate [16:37] xnox, sending a UPS parcel is cheaper in germany :) [16:38] ogra_: and it actually may arrive! [16:38] ++ [16:38] ogra_: i once sent an MMS, which arrived as an SMS with a url to open on the other end. [16:38] haha [16:38] ogra_: cause the receiving operator did not support delivering MMS at all! [16:39] yeah, MMS are actually SMS with a download link ... but you usually have a provider proxy that hands you the data then [16:39] via the shipped URL [16:40] asac: can you see ev's slides? just want to make sure [16:41] ogasawara: yes :) [16:41] thanks [16:41] xnox: sometimes you get a URL, sometimes you get raw control metadata on your screen [16:41] it's awesome [16:43] cjwatson: =)))))) [16:43] to be fair that last has only happened to me once === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-platform-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1406/platform-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/06/11/%23ubuntu-uds-platform-1.html [17:00] thanks ogasawara slangasek ChickenCutlass ev!! awesome! [17:00] ogasawara: you think we can link the slides from the youtube video description? [17:00] ogasawara: and insert links to the start of each team for convenience? [17:00] dholbach: who can edit those video descriptions? [17:00] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5AjUo9K-yQ [17:00] asac: hrm, not sure [17:01] asac: I'm planning at the very least to link the decks from the description in summit.ubuntu.com [17:01] right. think for the world the video descriptio would be better [17:01] :) [17:01] let me try to find out [17:17] asac, whoever kicked off the hangout - it's in their youtube channel AFAIK === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-platform-1 to: Track: Ubuntu Development | Language packs for touch devices | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1406/meeting/22302/development-1406-touch-language-packs/ [17:54] pitti, I'm not sure if anyone else is going to, but I can start the hangout [17:54] dpm: ok; you'll just toss the URL here? [17:55] yeah [17:55] * ogra_ has some bandwith issues today and will follow via IRC [17:56] hi everyone, here's the hangout URL for the langpacks session for anyone wanting to join: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYcxsbVRdlmAOBPlxgkDxqUqcnxSlHfEMOMlyeuQpxURZHb84A [17:59] seb128, here's the hangout link https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYcxsbVRdlmAOBPlxgkDxqUqcnxSlHfEMOMlyeuQpxURZHb84A [17:59] http://pad.ubuntu.com/uos-1406-development-1406-touch-language-packs [18:00] thats an evil color you have [18:00] :) [18:01] http://pad.ubuntu.com/uos-1406-development-1406-touch-language-packs [18:06] Anybody who could provide the link to the hangout? [18:06] https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYcxsbVRdlmAOBPlxgkDxqUqcnxSlHfEMOMlyeuQpxURZHb84A [18:07] ogra_: Thanks! [18:07] pitti, pfft ... developers are on tehir own :P [18:09] dpm_, pitti, the rw mode is kind of a developer mode anyway ... dont worry to much about it [18:09] ogra_: *nod* [18:09] just mentioning it for completeness [18:09] ++ [18:10] GunnarHj, notes are at http://pad.ubuntu.com/uos-1406-development-1406-touch-language-packs [18:10] ogra_, don't hate on developers! [18:10] haha, i dont [18:10] but i expect them to be capable of working with LANG=C [18:11] sure they are [18:11] (apart from the french ones perhaps :P ) [18:11] but if you keep using that argument, it means devs are going to need 150 manual steps to make the system usable for their usecase [18:11] which is quite a step back from what we have today [18:11] QUESTION: will we also include the spelling/grammar dictionaries, and keyboard layouts with the lang packs? [18:12] seb128, there will be a UI option to enable adb ... and there will be a switch to ubuntu-device-flash to install with dev mode and writability [18:12] dobey, currently these come as deps of the OSK [18:13] ogra_: right, but do those aling with the 20+ languages that are >50% coverage? [18:13] align even [18:13] ogasawara: seems you should be able to change video description etc. [18:13] oh sorry if there was a sesion :) ... ignore [18:13] dobey, not atm ... up to us to align the seeds [18:13] asac: ack, I'll investigate [18:14] pitti, we dont care about anything that is not UI [18:14] ogra_, that is again a shortcoming when you think about convergence [18:14] seb128, i think about RTM only currently [18:14] ogra_, we should design something that's futurproof [18:15] seb128, i agree but for RTM (which is essentially also 14.10) we can easily go with seed syncs [18:15] yeah, it would be nice to have some way to install additional languages, without having to totally break the phone to do it [18:15] ogra_, are we discussing RTM or futur there? [18:15] dobey, you wotn be able to if they are deb [18:16] seb128, no idea ... i thought 14.10 [18:16] ogra_: yes, i know that. but i think we need to solve that [18:16] dobey, right, see my comment on the notes [18:16] whether or not it is done for RTM is separate from how we get there [18:16] if we want to be able to update/install individual langs they must be click [18:16] what is the pad url? [18:17] http://pad.ubuntu.com/uos-1406-development-1406-touch-language-packs [18:17] pitti: I've missed half this session, but are you considering having another lookup location? [18:17] infinity: for a world where we want language-pack-gnome and language-pack-touch installable side by side this seems like the best solution indeed [18:17] pitti: Cause we could just have glibc have another lookup location, and clickify touch langpacks to install to a click-friendly location, and not ship desktop langpacks at all. [18:18] infinity, what for? somewhere in a system-image rw location you mean? [18:18] for now they just Conflicts: each other [18:20] pitti, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/TemplatesPriority [18:20] how often do we need to update translations separate from the packages that own those translations now? [18:20] infinity: we haven't talked about click at all yet [18:20] (and I don't think langpacks would be a particualrly good idea for them) [18:21] could we just get rid of langpacks, and include all the translations directly in the packages? [18:21] pitti: Well, click seems like the obvious choice for people wanting to install more language support. Android usually doesn't ship with all translations either. [18:21] pitti, it think they would [18:21] (thats why i added that to the notes too) [18:21] at least if you want to be able to update them out of the system image [18:22] infinity: oh, you mean langpacks AS click packags, not FOR [18:22] ogra_: i'm less concerned about updating, than wanting to use a language that is available, but not on the image [18:22] pitti: Right! [18:23] dobey, well, at the size that pitti can squeeze them we could easily ship all we have [18:23] pitti: So, the argument for having langpacks out of band (as click) is so that we don't actually have to ship them all. [18:23] ogra_: right. so why have lang packs at all? :) [18:24] dobey, ? [18:24] infinity: right, and we can certainly keep that idea [18:24] infinity, but the touch only ones are really small [18:24] ogra_: if we are going to ship all the translations anyway, why have langpacks? [18:24] dobey, maintenance reasons [18:24] you could as well just have one giant one [18:24] ogra_: it seems like having langpackas is more work, not less [18:24] dobey, that's how we land updated translations [18:25] on the system image [18:25] which is then shipped to users [18:25] the problem with the current langpacks is that they have lots of things we don't have on the phone [18:25] dobey, we have an infrastructure [18:25] dobey, do you listen to the hangout ? [18:25] dobey: not the language-pack-touch-* ones, they have exactly the stuff that's on the image [18:25] the touch ones are stripped for touch only stuff [18:25] ogra_: yes [18:25] and we can avoid shipping really badly translated languages with that, too [18:25] they dont ship anything we dont need [18:25] i. e. "most" [18:26] ogra_: those are on the phone already? [18:26] ogra_: i'm talking about a different solution to -touch only langpacks (by just not having langpacks) [18:27] pitti: So, if the touch ones are super tiny and no one cares about us shipping all of them, whether they're click or deb is a less interesting discussion, perhaps. [18:27] dobey, we ship 6 languages atm [18:27] due to space constraints [18:27] with the touch packs we will be able to ship all [18:27] pitti: But giving them another path and extending the glibc lookup patch makes sense, so someone flipping a phone to r/w and then wanting to install a full langpack won't end up with a conflict they need to resolve. [18:27] ogra_: i feel like we are talking past each other :-/ [18:27] Assuming those lookups aren't hideously expensive... [18:27] infinity, we should definitely make them co-installable [18:28] dobey, we can not not have langpacks [18:28] infinity: well, "super tiny" is an exaggeration, they are ~ 800 kB each (.deb size) [18:28] ogra_: why not? [18:28] dobey, unless we are inventing a completely new infra [18:28] uncompressed ~ 3 MB [18:28] pitti: Oh. That's pretty huge, IMO. [18:28] ogra_: there's nothing to invent [18:28] pitti: So, install-on-demand as clicks would make a lot of sense, in that case, IMO. [18:29] dobey, our current infra creates them automatically from translations [18:29] ogra_: yes. but disabling the langpack magic just means putting the translations in the binary packages that own them instead [18:29] infinity, all of them will be like 50-60M vs 150M for six lands we whip today [18:29] *langs [18:29] infinity: well, the current packs are ~ 30 MB uncompressed :) [18:29] (per language) [18:30] dobey, oh, *thats* what you mean [18:30] ogra_: Sure, but I'm all for shrinking further. [18:30] dobey, that wont work in convergence [18:30] ogra_: why not? [18:30] infinity, yeah, i wouldnt mind having them as clicks [18:30] it worked perfectly fine before we had langpacks :) [18:30] ogra_, pitti: we should keep in mind that langpacks are likely to increase over time, as our softwares become more complete [18:30] (joining late) i believe click packages should ship languages on their own and if they get too big, the store should grow support for hosting translations and shipping translations for apps :) - maybe store could offer community translationm feature as a big +1 over apple/android [18:30] dobey, right, but your desktop langpacks wont be able to update your translations after release [18:31] asac, not talking about apps here [18:31] ogra_: the youtube channel talks about click though? [18:31] ogra_: they would update the same as they would update on the phone [18:31] asac, taalking about the mechanism to ship languages [18:31] asac, click vs deb [18:31] ah [18:31] :) [18:31] asac, right, but that's translations for the default image [18:31] not for clicks [18:31] seb128: well, there is an overlap. we hav clicks in defult image too [18:31] dpm_, ++ [18:31] sounds good [18:32] well, "default image, deb+click+whatever else" [18:32] seb128: imo those should use the same mechanism as the other clicks [18:32] asac, and the langpacks ship their translations currently [18:32] seb128: right, but if we invent something for those clicks that ship on image, its not good. we should invent something for all clicks :) [18:32] infinity: the lookups aren't trivial, given that clicks can live in a lot of places, but computing based on argv[0] and its path should hopefully be doable? [18:32] asac, right, but i dont think this is about click translations at all atm [18:32] ogra_: right, thats a bandaid, but feel we need a click translation story :_) ... anyway, if thats not on topic i will wait :P [18:32] just about the default langs we ship [18:33] dpm_, yes, i was referring to RTM [18:33] again, i dont think thats an independent topic as we ship clicks by default :P [18:33] pitti: i don't understand what you're asking about with that argv[0] comment [18:33] pitti: Well, we should be able to install to a well-known-path, I'd assume. Unless we also want third-party langpacks, which seems a bit potentially scary. [18:33] ogra_, ack, cool [18:33] asac, right, but we dont have anything for click translations yet [18:33] i will put that on beuno's list :) ... one sec [18:33] :) [18:33] lol [18:34] click does not know dependencies [18:34] pitti: Ahh, I hadn't thought about wordlists and such. [18:34] pitti, ^^ [18:35] *everything* (wordlists, translations, kbd layouts) would have to be inside the language click [18:35] pitti, OSK uses hunspell [18:35] infinity: how can click install into a well-known path? [18:35] ogra_: thanks [18:35] for word suggestions [18:36] ogra_: so we need to pre-install a reasonable set of hunspell-* [18:36] yes :( [18:36] pitti: I've never looked at the implementation, but I assume clicks install to sane paths, somehow? [18:36] the kbd language packages depend onthat [18:36] pitti: it can't. it can only install to /opt/click.ubuntu.com/${package_name} [18:36] pitti: Like com.canonical/langpack-foo or whatever? [18:36] dobey, preinstalled clicks can install differently [18:37] dobey: That sounds like a well-known path to me. [18:37] ogra_: they install to /usr/share, but updates to go /opt/click.ubuntu.com/ [18:37] oh, right [18:37] infinity: one well-known path per language [18:37] infinity: oh, you mean within the click pkg namespace, yes [18:38] pitti: So, I guess to make that work, you'd also need a hook that creates a link farm to somewhere else, so we wouldn't have to walk that whole namespace. [18:38] pitti: So, yeah, interesting thought exercise, probably not worth it for RTM. [18:38] infinity: yeah, a hook could handle creating symlinks inside a well-known path [18:38] infinity: that also opens up the can-of-worms of third-party langpacks, though :) [18:39] dobey: Does the click infra have no provision for validating origin? :/ [18:39] infinity: not at the moment. don't know when we'll get signed click packages [18:39] Whee. Fun. [18:40] infinity: you could hard-code the namespace to be "com.ubuntu.langpack" or whatever, and only create symlinks for languages in packages under that namespace though [18:43] seb128, pitti, even if we provided click packages for them we would need to initially ship them [18:43] (like we do with the other preinstalled clicks) [18:43] ogra_, why? [18:44] ogra_, we could do "install spell suggestion from the store" and send people to the click lens or something [18:44] seb128, youwill likely run the welcome wizard in the right language [18:44] thats a factory thing [18:44] factory install [18:44] *before* connecting to WLAN or creating the U1 account [18:44] ogra_, we are discussing spell checking there [18:44] not language [18:44] oh, sorry [18:44] ogra_: The welcome wizard can't know what language you speak before you tell it, but it would also ship with all translations unstripped, I'd assume. [18:45] infinity, perhaps ... [18:45] so if spell checking is working already, then that means we are shipping at least some (my|hun)spell-XX packages, no? [18:45] but it will fork out into apps too [18:45] ogra_: Anything that leads you to how to install a new language always needs to be unstripped, this isn't a new concept. :P [18:45] like the WLAN dialog [18:45] some languages should be installed by default though [18:45] or the U1 account setup [18:46] asac, if we can fit them, *all* languages should be installed by default IMHO [18:46] nah [18:46] ogra_, do you know if the current touch image includes hunspell binaries? [18:46] just the most common ones. the rest is a factory problem [18:46] or myspell ones [18:46] seb128, yes, it does [18:46] which ones? [18:46] hmm [18:46] infinity: you can guess language from the way people look. i swear i can recognize how the french look :P [18:46] lol [18:47] asac: That's just because you're German, and all French people look frightened to you. [18:47] lol [18:47] hehe [18:47] seb128, http://paste.ubuntu.com/7629917/ [18:47] pitti, dpm ^ [18:47] pulled in by the kbd packages [18:48] ogra_, thanks [18:50] ogra_: ah, thanks; so we are missing spanish and maybe a few others [18:50] yep [18:50] not sure why they are not there [18:50] let's just build different system images for different languages [18:50] we surely ship the matching kbd packages [18:50] not sure why we need fr-classical [18:50] ubuntu-device-flash --language ja_US [18:50] dobey, not an option [18:50] dobey: That's a nightmare to QA, which is why we don't do it for desktop ISOs. [18:51] i was being facetious :) [18:52] thanks !! [18:52] :D [18:53] but it does get us the smallest images, available for the most languages :) [18:53] thanks everyone! [18:53] thanks folks === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-platform-1 to: Track: Ubuntu Development | click packages for the desktop | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1406/meeting/22312/development-1406-click-ftd/ [18:55] asac, can we just move dobey to QA to implement that ? :P [18:57] dpm_: I put the gist into the BP whiteboard [18:58] dpm_: will you target that to utopic/milestone/etc, so that it appears properly on status and +upcomingwork? [18:59] dpm_: I put it to 14.06 for now [18:59] awesome, thanks pitti [18:59] ogra_: who is dobey reporting into? [18:59] dunno [19:00] ogra_: if he is somewhere under olli then its easy :) [19:00] it's mvo TV! [19:00] click for the desktop is at https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYdXzLigR8oAWSWyhsXq6IW0UXY4aBx8mc_bgDL1Kyj5sUb2iA?authuser=0&hl=en [19:00] dobey: just kidding btw [19:00] mvo_: is that supposed to be live already? :-) [19:00] pitti: yes, was testing but I stoped it now again [19:01] eh, how can I start it again? [19:01] mvo_: you're live for me [19:01] oh, gone now [19:01] back now [19:01] can someone join? I feel a bit lonley [19:03] the feed is not marked "live" and keeps ending after 1:15 [19:03] mvo_: perhaps ping the subscribers [19:03] so the link on the summit needs updating [19:03] to the youtube url [19:03] i can join you [19:03] barry: ah I guess broadcast was stopped [19:03] yes [19:03] mvo is starting a new one [19:04] you can't start again after stopping [19:04] lets try again: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYfd3PMw1nB_D9YbppXQYAASnq1k8GKDuIxM6FGGwOjQPGUAyQ?authuser=0&hl=en [19:05] hrm, it still says off-air [19:05] mvo_: correct, start it [19:05] xnox: but how? [19:05] mvo_, you didn't try starting that one yet though? [19:05] mvo_: there is a button [19:06] mvo_: it's live already, we can see you [19:06] on http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1406/meeting/22312/development-1406-click-ftd/ [19:06] mvo_, weird, the hangout says "off" [19:06] pitti, I think that's a failed old recording [19:06] pitti, that's the recording from the first one? [19:06] summit still seems to have the old hangout url [19:06] it's not live [19:06] oh, right [19:07] it's just 1:15 long [19:07] mvo_: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1406/meeting/22312/development-1406-click-ftd/ [19:07] I got told I was the first one here when I tried it [19:07] STAND BY, restarting soon =) [19:07] * sil2100 sigh [19:07] we should be on air now [19:07] mvo_, having fun? :-P [19:07] It seems that this part is not really well supported [19:07] * dholbach hugs mvo_ [19:07] hey, reload! it's live now (but not feeding yet) [19:08] still says first one here for me [19:08] could somebody post the hangout url? [19:08] \o/ [19:08] cjwatson: one sec. [19:08] https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYfd3PMw1nB_D9YbppXQYAASnq1k8GKDuIxM6FGGwOjQPGUAyQ?authuser=0&hl=en [19:08] ta [19:08] live! [19:08] cjwatson: ^ yeap above is correct. [19:09] hmm. the youtube stream isnt online anymore? [19:09] asac: yes it is, it was restarted. You may need to reload the summit page [19:09] Youtube to watch is [19:09] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj8gqeHXwCA#t=100 [19:10] ah [19:11] xnox: thx :) [19:13] or if you load plug-ins [19:13] if you have questions, please ask them here [19:14] QUESTION: Why can't we offer Click packages on X11 with a giant "Use at your own risk" disclaimer? [19:14] it would still be better than telling them to use a PPA [19:15] disclaimers don't work [19:15] it is always more interesting to get your work done than to care about a disclaimer [19:15] even when it's not enabled by default? [19:15] yes [19:15] we talked about this in Oakland and definitively ruled it out :) [19:15] mhall119: clicks can be installed already and run on x11. [19:15] we don't want people to start uploading apps that specifically try and escape confinement with X11 [19:15] but the alternative is still to use a PPA right? [19:15] it would be trivial [19:15] but we don't support it [19:16] you can install click packages by hand, but we won't offer any UI for it [19:16] on X11 [19:16] and indeed PPAs work [19:16] mhall119: use ppa and normal deb. There is no gain in using click for an X11 app. [19:16] cjwatson: well, you can run unity8 under x11 and do it (but it's still massively annoying to do); and anyone could easily write an app store app to do it, too [19:16] could we offer supported click packages from the store if they had the same level of review as deb packages in extras? [19:17] QUESTION: could we offer supported click packages from the store if they had the same level of review as deb packages in extras? [19:17] mhall119: no, because we don't scale enough. [19:17] mhall119: get your X11 apps into universe. [19:17] mhall119: or a ppa. [19:17] it would be better to spend that time on making things work with mir/unity8 [19:17] it's a LOT of time [19:17] xnox: that's a good deal harder than making a click package [19:17] right. we want to get exactly out of the business provding the middleman service [19:17]