[08:29] <ochosi> (late) morning everyone
[08:32] <Noskcaj> evening ochosi 
[08:58] <ochosi> ok folks, so we have an extras PPA that we can populate with apps that aren't in any repo yet: https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/extras
[08:59] <ochosi> Unit193, Noskcaj, bluesabre ^
[09:47]  * Unit193 isn't in dev.
[10:16] <ochosi> Unit193: let's work on that
[10:17] <ochosi> meanwhile you can still prep packages that one of us can then push there
[10:22] <Unit193> Meh.  Anywho, copy anything from /xfce you like, though might want to tell me what so I can ping if/when I update it.
[10:22] <knome> +1 for Unit193 in -dev
[10:23] <Unit193> (I'm not actually a dev) Meh, I'm find with things being under review, really.
[10:26] <ochosi> yeah, well the whole asking when something's updated is the reason why i think you should be able to do it yourself
[12:12] <Unit193> ochosi: Want thunar-dropbox-plugin in there?
[20:18] <Noskcaj> ochosi, i too am not in dev.
[20:18] <Noskcaj> I'll add the embed plugin when i get the chance, since corsac never uploaded it
[20:39] <Noskcaj> debian xfpm now "replace consolekit recommends by libpam-systemd, and add systemd-shim | system-sysv as well in order to not force systemd as init to users for now."
[20:39] <Noskcaj> Is that a change we don't want? I've not been following systemd
[20:44] <Unit193> Noskcaj: We already have that, not an issue.
[20:44] <Noskcaj> ok. I'll merge as soon as the branch is ready
[20:45] <Unit193> xfce4-session, lightdm, ligghtdm-gtk-greeter and perhaps others got the same thing.
[20:47] <Noskcaj> yep
[22:14] <brainwash> ochosi: any idea how to tell/encourage people to also file upstream reports? flooding the Xfce tracker won't help in most cases, but having only lp reports doesn't help either
[22:25] <knome> brainwash, while it's boring and repetitive, one way is to comment on the LP bugs..
[22:25] <knome> brainwash, the other option is to file relevant bugs on the xfce bugzilla yourself
[22:26] <brainwash> could someone from -team do that?
[22:27] <knome> why would somebody in the -team do that?
[22:29] <brainwash> good question
[22:32] <knome> wouldn't it be better if somebody else did it rather than waste the time of people who are already committed to the project?
[22:37] <brainwash> it would be
[22:37] <brainwash> however, bug tracking is not a waste of time
[22:37] <knome> well, no
[22:38] <knome> but i don't want, say, bluesabre do bug tracking instead of actually fixing bugs
[22:38] <knome> time comes in finite amounts
[22:40] <ali1234> there is a template comment for "please file an upstream bug"
[22:41] <ali1234> i often send bug reports upstream
[22:41] <ali1234> because it's quicker than trying to explain how to use bugzilla
[22:43] <ali1234> brainwash: why did you subscribe me to that flash bug today?
[22:44] <ali1234> because you knew i had a workaround for it?
[22:44] <ali1234> or because of some weirdness on lp?
[22:44] <brainwash> so you could add a nice comment which explains why the bug is happening :)
[22:45] <ali1234> there's no nice explanation for it unfortunately... it happens because flash detects when focus changes and unmaximizes itself. so it is "by design"
[22:45] <ali1234> the workaround is to patch xlib so it drops those events instead of sending them to the window
[22:46] <ali1234> (which i do at runtime)
[22:46] <brainwash> I know about the workaround
[22:46] <brainwash> so there is no chance to get it fixed officially (in ubuntu)?
[22:46] <ali1234> none at all
[22:47] <ali1234> unless abode fixes it, which they definitely won't
[22:47] <ali1234> they didn't even fix it when all videos were playing with reversed chroma (aka the smurf bug)
[22:49] <brainwash> I see
[22:50] <brainwash> what was the deal with the new present extension?
[22:50] <brainwash> didn't you want to utilize it?
[22:51] <brainwash> vsync stuff
[22:51] <ali1234> yeah... no support from the video drivers yet
[22:51] <ali1234> it's really easy to just patch it in
[22:51] <ali1234> but nobody can use it
[22:51] <ali1234> it directly replaces XRender
[22:52] <brainwash> right, 14.10 won't support it yet I guess
[22:52] <ali1234> maybe if you use intel or nouveau
[22:52] <brainwash> or maybe
[22:52] <brainwash> yeah
[22:52] <ali1234> just look for DRI3 and Present extensions
[22:52] <ali1234> you'll probably have them
[22:53] <ali1234> but they won't actually fix tearing unless the video driver implements them properly, which they don't
[22:53] <ali1234> currently they just fake it by passing it throgh to XRender
[22:53] <brainwash> intel supports them now
[22:53] <ali1234> intel already has tear-free with DRM
[22:53] <brainwash> yes, and it has been improved a lot
[22:54] <brainwash> tearfree is even better than xr_glx_hybird (compton)
[22:54] <ali1234> i don't want to add yet another rendering backend and config option
[22:54] <ali1234> yes, it should be
[22:54] <ali1234> and present should be even better
[22:54] <brainwash> an it is finally :)
[22:55] <brainwash> even better o.o
[22:55] <ali1234> present can go one stage further and do proper double buffering
[22:55] <ali1234> where the app actually knows which buffer is being displayed
[22:55] <ali1234> that's a bit more complex to implement though
[22:55] <brainwash> sounds promising
[22:56] <ali1234> but the thing is, i want to wait until present is widely supported, and then just drop all the other hacks
[22:56] <ali1234> and by widely supported i mean nvidia binary driver supports it
[22:58] <brainwash> this will take some time, but a tear free experience ootb is really needed
[22:59] <brainwash> especially since it's already 2014
[23:05] <ali1234> go to https://devtalk.nvidia.com and ask them to support present
[23:16] <ochosi> funny that there doesnt seem to be a related discussion yet in that forum
[23:20] <ali1234> that's because it is mostly users who know nothing. tinkerers, if you will
[23:20] <ali1234> every other thread is complaining about tearing though
[23:26] <ochosi> mmm
[23:26] <ochosi> tearing is really one of the basic aspects where linux limps behind other OSs
[23:28] <ali1234> only if you use the proprietary drivers
[23:28] <ali1234> the actual place where linux lags behind is in decent 3d acceleration
[23:29] <ali1234> only intel has quality drivers, and their hardware is rubbish
[23:30] <ochosi> i dunno, nouveau didn't seem to improve tearing issues at all here
[23:30] <ochosi> all it did was push my fan to 100%
[23:30] <ochosi> (constantly)
[23:31] <ali1234> nouveau has present now
[23:32] <ochosi> oh, it does?
[23:32] <ochosi> not bad, if that worked, i guess i'd switch
[23:36] <ali1234> all software is bad, all computers suck....
[23:37] <ali1234> anything more complex than 8 bit microcontrollers is basically guaranteed to not work properly
[23:41] <ochosi> makes you wonder why we ever managed to put a man on the moon or a rover on mars though
[23:41] <ochosi> can't be *that* bad
[23:43] <ali1234> that was done with 8 bit computers
[23:43] <ali1234> the question is why can't we do it today?