[06:05] <Kilos> cremora minora
[07:04] <kbmonkey> morning
[07:25] <Kilos> Maaz  coffee on
[07:25]  * Maaz puts the kettle on
[07:28] <kbmonkey> hello Kilos 
[07:29] <Kilos> hi kbmonkey  howsit lad?
[07:29]  * Kilos back on kde. unity is tiring to get working to my satisfaction
[07:29] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for Kilos!
[07:29] <Kilos> Maaz  ty
[07:30] <Maaz> You are welcome Kilos
[07:33] <kbmonkey> alright thanks Kilos. how are you and the sheep?
[07:34] <Kilos> good ty apart from the cold
[07:34] <Kilos> so cold and peeps are flying around in microlights
[07:34] <Kilos> brrrr
[07:35] <kbmonkey> the air must be like ice up that high
[07:35] <Kilos> yip. they must be fat peeps or thick skinned
[07:36] <kbmonkey> I am driving to maritzburg shortly
[07:38] <Kilos> go safe lad
[07:38] <Kilos> i did that trip every weekend for years
[07:38] <Kilos> but the south coast way
[07:41] <kbmonkey> thank you Kilos. taking the sister and her husband with for father's day
[07:42] <kbmonkey> I am going down so long, want to "assess" my car seat covers, need new ones
[07:42] <Kilos> nice
[07:42] <Kilos> haha
[08:09] <Kilos> hi Private_User  
[08:09] <Private_User> hi Kilos
[08:34] <Private_User> hey anybody here know of any good sites I can download some contract/partnership or client contract templates for ICT stuff like web development/support etc?
[08:50] <Private_User> hmm...
[08:50] <Kilos> all shopping
[08:50] <Private_User> I guess since its Saturday everybody is out and about
[08:50] <Kilos> hehe
[08:50] <Private_User> lol
[08:50] <Private_User> yeah
[08:50] <Kilos> did you try that script for win connections
[08:51] <Private_User> yep I did, works lekker but internet was so slow yesterday did not make a difference
[08:52] <Private_User> today it seems to be fine
[08:52] <charl_> good morning
[08:52] <charl_> hi Kilos, Private_User, kbmonkey
[08:52] <charl_> Maaz: coffee on
[08:52]  * Maaz puts the kettle on
[08:53] <Private_User> morning charl_
[08:53] <Kilos> hi charl_  
[08:53] <Private_User> Maaz: coffee please
[08:53] <Maaz> Private_User: Alrighty
[08:54] <Private_User> charl_: you know of any good sites I can download some contract templates?
[08:55] <Private_User> more especially for like ICT stuff like providing development/support services to clients which they will sign and also to partner with other companies and provide those services
[08:56] <Private_User> I know of a guy who lost everything because clients did not pay him and the amounts were in the millions
[08:56] <Private_User> he was doing software development
[08:56] <charl_> Private_User: sorry it's been years since i did any freelance projects
[08:56] <charl_> get a good lawyer
[08:56] <Private_User> ok no worries charl_
[08:56] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for charl_ and Private_User!
[08:57] <charl_> i also had some bad expreriences with clients who did not pay
[08:57] <Private_User> Maaz: thanks
[08:57] <Maaz> Private_User: Okay :-)
[08:57] <Private_User> yeah I am trying to avoid that
[08:59] <Private_User> this guy I know he had a company so not sure how he was doing business
[08:59] <Private_User> sometimes word of mouth and trust is never enough
[09:00] <Private_User> but I think he lost everything due to poor financial management as well
[09:21] <charl_> Private_User: it's very hard in IT because it's a watery affair
[09:21] <charl_> most people outside of IT don't really know IT very well
[09:21] <charl_> so you end up having to hire a specialist lawyer
[09:21] <charl_> one who costs a packet of money
[09:22] <charl_> and the other party can always claim that you didn't do your job properly etc
[09:22] <charl_> so you have to prove that everything that was agreed upon has been delivered
[09:22] <charl_> when you do commercial software development, especially if you use the agile mythology, this can be difficult
[09:22] <charl_> because what is to be delivered is not structured in contractual form
[09:23] <charl_> it's captured on issue tracking systems like trac
[09:23] <charl_> that is, if you do it well, otherwise you just have a bunch of lose papers laying around with notes :)
[09:23] <charl_> so it makes it very hard to prove in court that you did your job and you need to get paid (in a legal way)
[09:24] <charl_> i used to mitigate the risk by mitigate the risk by insisting on clients paying deposits
[09:24] <Private_User> yeah its a bit of a conundrum hey
[09:24] <charl_> it's the same as with quoting clients
[09:25] <Private_User> but you right how do you put on paper what is needed by the client and what that actually means in IT terms
[09:25] <charl_> how can you issue a quote based off a limited understanding of the requirements and variables involved
[09:25] <charl_> so you first have to do in-depth requirements analysis
[09:25] <charl_> by then you've already done half the work before you can actually quote the client
[09:25] <charl_> and then what if the client decides to go elsewhere
[09:26] <charl_> but that's typical waterfall mythology, i refuse to do that
[09:26] <Private_User> yep thats the other issue some clients want to know the price before they give you any info
[09:30] <Private_User> so if you had to guess prices what you say a web design project price should start from?
[09:31] <Private_User> but now a user do they understand the difference between web design and web development
[09:32] <Private_User> lots of things to think about I guess thats why some people just go on trust and do the job but I guess yes a deposit does help and then rest payable on delivery
[10:41] <charl_> well the thing is you have to manage the risk, just like with everything else in business
[10:41] <charl_> when you're in business you take risks, that's the only way to get anywhere
[10:41] <charl_> but which risks you end up taking is something you have to be very careful with
[10:41] <charl_> and you have to try and mitigate those risks as far as possible
[10:42] <charl_> when you get involved with a client, you have to be selective about which clients you are willing to take on
[10:42] <charl_> usually that does not as much depend on the project, but on the client him/her/themselves
[10:42] <charl_> if you do work for a client regularly, you build a trust relationship with them
[10:42] <charl_> if they always keep paying consistently there is no reason to ask for a deposit every time
[10:43] <charl_> but if you think to yourself "this guy is a real w*nker" then you have to be extra careful
[10:43] <charl_> and that's when you might consider inflating the quote and asking for a fat deposit up front to at least see if they actually have (any) money
[10:44] <charl_> you can always make it up to them later by saying "it was less work than we thought" and simply make the final invoice less than expected
[10:44] <charl_> then you did good business and the client walks away happy
[11:36] <Kilos> build in a killer bug that you remove after you paid
[11:42] <Kilos> just tell the client it has a bug built it that deactivates on payment
[11:43] <Kilos> s/it/in
[15:42] <Kilos> ohi superfly  
[15:42] <Kilos> and others
[15:42] <superfly> hi Kilos
[15:42]  * Kilos watching rugger with tara
[17:18] <captine> evening all
[17:20] <Somethingwentwro> Kilos: do you see the moon?
[17:20] <Kilos> nope
[17:21] <Kilos> who you Somethingwentwro  ??
[17:21] <Kilos> hehe
[17:21] <Kilos> hi captine  
[17:21] <Kilos> aha
[17:21] <Kilos> my monkey
[17:21] <mobilemonkey> Oops :)
[17:21] <captine> hi kilod
[17:21] <captine> Kilos, 
[17:21] <captine> my bad
[17:22] <mobilemonkey> It is big and red
[17:22] <Kilos> you still in pmb mobilemonkey  ??
[17:24] <Kilos> i walked to otherside the world i think. many hours
[17:26] <Kilos> -625  and -896
[17:27] <Kilos> eish superfly  gale force winds and rain tomorrow by you
[17:27] <Kilos> stay in bed
[17:27] <theblazehen> eish. Where is the fly?
[17:27] <Kilos> capetown
[17:28] <mobilemonkey> No I drove back oom
[17:28] <Kilos> why you not in the game mobilemonkey  ?
[17:28] <Kilos> im so far away im not walking back again
[17:28] <Kilos> im gonna commt sewerage pipe
[17:29]  * theblazehen beeping loves rsync :D
[18:05] <Kilos> hi psychicist__  
[18:15] <superfly> Kilos: gale force winds always here... and rain, well... it's winter
[18:15] <Kilos> ai!
[18:16] <ThatGraemeGuy> 'lo
[18:43] <superfly> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2014/06/unity-8-daily-build-images-go-live
[18:47] <Private_User> evening all
[19:04] <hibana> good evening
[19:09] <Private_User> evening hibana
[19:10] <inetpro> ai!
[19:11] <inetpro> hibana: gaan weg!
[19:11] <hibana> sorry oom
[19:11] <hibana> bye
[19:11] <inetpro> good evening
[19:16] <inetpro> Eskom giving us grey hairs today
[19:17]  * inetpro been working most of the day having to shut down servers et all due to loss of power in Pretoria
[19:18] <inetpro> UPS system ended up running out of power due to another circuit breaker failing to switch over load between city power and generator
[19:35] <Kilos> inetpro  why you chase my friend hibana
[19:35] <inetpro> skuus oom, baie onvriendelik van my
[19:35] <Kilos> ja
[19:36] <Kilos> one of my first irc buddies
[19:36] <Kilos> he was very helpfull not busy all the time
[19:37] <inetpro> ai!
[19:37] <Kilos> ThatGraemeGuy  link to the map please
[19:37] <Kilos> hehe skuus man
[19:38] <Kilos> we mgonna have to find another unity user to help noobs
[19:46] <inetpro> Kilos: why?
[19:47] <Kilos> im seriously thinking of only using kde
[19:47] <inetpro> oh cool
[19:47] <Kilos> i cant get that compose thing working
[19:47] <Kilos> grrrr
[19:49] <superfly> compose?
[19:49] <superfly> top left hand corner
[20:09] <Kilos> on unity superfly  , the thing i used to make the degrees sign
[20:09] <Kilos> on kde it works
[20:09] <superfly> oh
[20:09] <Kilos> i hope
[20:09] <superfly> yes
[20:10] <Kilos> °
[20:10] <Kilos> ja left super and oo
[20:10] <Kilos> they have disabled the compose key function
[20:10] <Kilos> on unity that is
[20:12] <superfly> Yøü méån thàt ônẽ?
[20:12] <superfly> wow...
[20:12] <Kilos> lol ya that one
[20:13] <Kilos> on drussels pc it works even disabled but not here
[20:13] <Kilos> and all the links on what to do make matters worse
[20:14] <Kilos> so im gonna cruise on kde and keep the unity drive going just for noobs help methinks
[20:15] <Kilos> now its bed time for ballies. night all
[20:15] <Kilos> sleep warm