[15:01] <cjwatson> hi folks
[15:01] <cjwatson> #startmeeting
[15:01] <jodh> o/
[15:01]  * mvo waves
[15:01] <bhuey> hey
[15:02] <infinity> \o/
[15:02]  * stgraber waves
[15:03] <cjwatson> one sec, was trying and failing to prepare a demo in time for the meeting :)
[15:03]  * barry wavers
[15:03] <cjwatson> let's see, slangasek, sil2100, and doko are out, did I miss anyone?
[15:03] <infinity> I'm not here either.
[15:03] <cjwatson> Sure
[15:04] <cjwatson> Your invisible paint is wearing off
[15:04]  * infinity furiously applies another coat.
[15:04] <cjwatson> $ echo $(shuf -e barry stgraber jodh bdmurray cjwatson xnox caribou infinity mvo bhuey robru)
[15:04]  * bhuey aims his Ghost Busters ray at infinity 
[15:04] <cjwatson> caribou jodh mvo xnox robru bhuey barry cjwatson infinity bdmurray stgraber
[15:04] <cjwatson> #topic Lightning round
[15:04] <cjwatson> oh the bot is dead, whatevers
[15:04] <caribou> oh, I get to go first !
[15:05] <bhuey> ruvly
[15:05] <caribou> * Qemu/KVM crash analysis : identified potential kernel mismatch
[15:05] <caribou> * Finished implementation of networked kernel crash dump. PPA available
[15:05] <caribou> * Backport of latest CVE to openssl 0.9.8 for precise
[15:05] <caribou> * Prepare SRU for MVO's backport of apt https fixes
[15:05] <caribou> (done)
[15:05] <jodh> * foundations-1305-upstart-work-items:
[15:05] <jodh>   - cgroup+async support: debugging state transitions and a race.
[15:05] <jodh> ⚜
[15:06]  * jodh is the anti-ev :)
[15:06] <mvo> hihi
[15:06] <mvo> HWE-End-of-Life:
[15:06] <mvo> - status meeting and meeting with jibel
[15:06] <mvo> - Debug/fix update-motd display issue
[15:06] <mvo> - Fix i18n issue, use localized dates, fix bug in update-support-status with fr\
[15:06] <mvo> ench locale, new version for the PPA
[15:06] <mvo> - Optimize the speed (from 2s to 0.2s :)
[15:06] <mvo> - Review/sponsor #1328266 uploads
[15:06] <mvo> - Testing
[15:06] <mvo> apt:
[15:06] <mvo> - CVE-2014-0478
[15:06] <mvo> - add hashtable stats to apt-cache stats/increase size
[15:06] <mvo> - Fix autopkgtest failure in utopic
[15:06] <mvo> - backport apt-ftparchive srccachedb feature to trusty-proposed and add fixes for #1274466, #1324399
[15:06] <mvo> - work on debian/experimental ABI break branch for utopic
[15:06] <mvo> aptdaemon:
[15:06] <mvo> - Debug/fix autopkgtest failure
[15:06] <mvo> click:
[15:06] <mvo> - lp:~mvo/click/chroot-tests (improve coverage for chroot.py)
[15:06] <mvo> - lp:~mvo/click/lp1324853 (get manifest from file)
[15:06] <mvo> - lp:~mvo/click/more-tests3 (integration tests for buildsource, pkgdir,
[15:06] <mvo>   framework)
[15:06] <mvo> - Work with seb on click for the desktop
[15:06] <mvo> python-apt:
[15:06] <mvo> - implement some suggestions from didrocks (thanks!)
[15:06] <mvo> - investigate landscape issue due to libapt changes
[15:06] <mvo> misc:
[15:07] <mvo> - patch pilot
[15:07] <mvo> - merge/upload lp:~mvo/update-notifier/use-apt-helper
[15:07] <mvo> (done)
[15:07]  * mvo is not a anti-ev
[15:07] <barry> mvo: maybe the ant-y-ev or auntie-ev?
[15:07] <infinity> mvo: It filled more than a screenful, you're the new ev.  Deal with it.
[15:08] <mvo> infinity: next thing is that you ask me how many shoes I have
[15:08] <stgraber> infinity: sorta, mvo needs to learn to make longer sentences, then he'll officially be the ev replacement :)
[15:08] <robru> it all fit on my screen, what are y'all doing this meeting on your phones or something?
[15:08] <bhuey> what's ev ?
[15:08] <stgraber> bhuey: former colleague of ours
[15:08] <cjwatson> Evan Dandrea, used to work for foundations, notorious for extremely verbose reports
[15:08] <infinity> bhuey: Evan Dandrea, used to write novels for status updates.
[15:08] <stgraber> bhuey: s/colleague/teammate/
[15:09] <barry> loquacious
[15:09] <cjwatson> (now CI manager)
[15:09] <infinity> xnox: *poke*
[15:09] <cjwatson> Actually isn't xnox out too?
[15:09] <stgraber> he's not on mumble, which is unusual, so I guess he's out yeah
[15:09] <infinity> Oh, maybe.  People should learn to not join #-meeting unless they have a meeting.  Mashocists.
[15:09] <bhuey> yeah I met him
[15:09] <cjwatson> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/06/12/%23ubuntu-meeting.txt:[15:24] <xnox>   - I'll be away most of next week. Flying out to Portland on Monday,
[15:09] <cjwatson> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/06/12/%23ubuntu-meeting.txt:[15:24] <xnox>     returning on Thursday. Working on Friday. I should have
[15:09] <cjwatson> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/06/12/%23ubuntu-meeting.txt:[15:24] <xnox>     intermittent internet connectivity throughout.
[15:09] <cjwatson> so robru's turn
[15:10] <robru> * misc landings, troubleshooting misc build failures
[15:10] <robru> * reviewed packaging for various & sundry landings
[15:10] <robru> * progress continues on the CI NonFunctional Testing Web Frontend
[15:10] <robru>   - pushed a live demo at http://people.canonical.com/~rbpark/nf/
[15:10] <robru>   - fancy graphs and things
[15:10] <infinity> Wow, how did that 'h' migrate to the left in that word?
[15:10] <cjwatson> what's NonFunctional jargon for?  I'm guessing it doesn't mean broken :)
[15:11] <cjwatson> perf testing?
[15:11] <bhuey> perf as in kernel perf ?
[15:11] <robru> cjwatson, yeah, that, but also any kind of test that isn't defined within the project itself
[15:11] <infinity> cjwatson: NonFunctional = Not written in Haskell?
[15:11] <cjwatson> sorry perf as in short for performance rather than the perf tool
[15:11] <stgraber> :)
[15:12] <cjwatson> infinity: hey, I can sort of do functional programming in python with a few contortions :)
[15:12] <robru> cjwatson, so, like, this would include systemsettle or glmark or whatever. the kind of testing where there is no real hard pass/fail, but rather where you want to record some kind of number, and only fail if the number represents a serious regression, which can only be determined by comparing it to past results
[15:12] <cjwatson> ah, got it, so this would include bootcharts, memory use, etc.
[15:12] <robru> cjwatson, yes
[15:12] <mvo> nice
[15:13] <infinity> cjwatson: There's something very wrong with you.
[15:13] <cjwatson> maybe I could steal you at some point to do that kind of graphing for various +1 maintenance metrics (build failures over time, say)
[15:13] <cjwatson> could do with some of that to make it easier to explain
[15:14] <cjwatson> (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlusOneMaintenanceTeam for those missing the jargon here)
[15:14] <bhuey> functional programming, bah
[15:14] <cjwatson> infinity: I said can, not do
[15:14] <infinity> cjwatson: ITYM https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JuanMaintenance
[15:14] <robru> cjwatson, sure. this thing we're making is going to be open to anybody to submit metrics into
[15:14]  * barry wants funk-tional programming
[15:14] <infinity> cjwatson: vorlon's contribution to the wiki...
[15:14] <cjwatson> Steve is a sick puppy
[15:14] <bhuey> barry: awesome
[15:14] <robru> cjwatson, but I'm just drawing pretty graphs, probably best to talk to thomi or fginther about getting your results actually in the system
[15:15] <cjwatson> ok
[15:15] <cjwatson> right, bhuey's up I think
[15:15] <bhuey> very sad status report
[15:15] <bhuey> Last week
[15:15] <bhuey> -experimented with the build environment more to see how all of the openjdk build trees are setup
[15:15] <bhuey> This week
[15:15] <bhuey> -was able to track down with the help of the team how to revert an openjdk change and it's history. I was able to create two patches to fix the problem. Both compile now
[15:16] <bhuey> -kept compiling changes and kept running into my misunderstandings of how the packaging system builds and the order in which it builds them. I finally resolved them. It was basically a confusion of how the patches from debian/patches/ apply to all of the nest openjdk/ directories.
[15:16] <bhuey> -realized that I can use something like make -j12 in an openjdk/ directory so that I don't have to wait for a full build from dpkg-buildpackage
[15:16] <bhuey> -follow naming conventions for packaging and then upload it again
[15:16] <bhuey> Next week
[15:16] <bhuey> -move to a new icedtea 2.5 package. This should go fast as what I've tripped up on I was finally able to bypass.
[15:16] <bhuey> -start on TCK configuration. Bother IS for access to that QA machine
[15:16] <bhuey> ...
[15:16] <bhuey> done
[15:16] <infinity> Which QA machine?
[15:16] <barry> working mostly on new "coverage service" dependency porting/packaging.
[15:16] <bhuey> move might happen today actually
[15:17] <barry> debuntu: virtualenv bug triaging (debian bug 751233), virtualenv 1.11.6-2, python-chameleon 2.16-1, zope.deprecation 4.1.1 (needs another upload), nose-exclude 0.2.0-3 (debian bug #751990 - need to followup with openstack team), tox 1.7.1-1 (debian bugs #746236 #751193 #751803), zope.testrunner 4.4.3-1 (debian bug #751647), cherrypy3 3.3.0-1 (debian bugs #494342, #751642, #722671), python-venusian 1.0a8-2
[15:17] <barry> phone: system-image test debugging.  asyncio experiment.  triaged LP: #1274131
[15:17] <barry> other: UOS, ci train monkeysheriff, landing team standup
[15:17] <barry> done
[15:17] <bhuey> infinity: albali
[15:17] <cjwatson> Two weeks of report as I was out for last week's meeting.
[15:17] <cjwatson> UOS.  Main thing for me was the RTM archive plan presentation.
[15:17] <cjwatson> Moved all germinate-related code out of Launchpad proper and into ubuntu-archive-publishing.  Used the opportunity to land parallelisation code, speeding the primary publisher up by a couple of minutes.
[15:17] <cjwatson> Added support for apt-ftparchive source caching to Launchpad.  We'll need to land and backport an apt SRU to finish this.
[15:17] <cjwatson> Optimised the index generation stage of the PPA publisher, roughly doubling its overall speed.
[15:17] <cjwatson> Reviewed William's first couple of branches for the new builder reset protocol needed for scalingstack.
[15:17] <cjwatson> Lots more work on livefs-in-LP, which is now finally in the process of landing.
[15:17] <cjwatson>  - Live demo!  https://dogfood.paddev.net/~ubuntu-cdimage/+livefs/ubuntu/trusty/ubuntu-desktop/+build/2
[15:18] <cjwatson> Tons of transitional uploads trying to get -proposed a bit less full.
[15:18] <cjwatson> Figured out the Jenkins madness necessary to get click onto the QA dashboard.
[15:18] <cjwatson> ..
[15:18] <stgraber> bhuey: don't you have a CI/QA lab VPN?
[15:18] <cjwatson> (that may be the shortest duration between getting a demo going and presenting its URL)
[15:18] <stgraber> bhuey: (I just tried and I can get into albali just fine using mine + usual login/password)
[15:19] <mvo> cjwatson: I uploaded the trusty-proposed sru today so hopefuly you are unblocked soon
[15:19] <bhuey> stgraber: not that I know of
[15:19] <infinity> - Lots of kernel SRU wrangling
[15:19] <infinity> - eglibc->glibc migration
[15:19] <infinity> - SRU and partner reviews
[15:19] <infinity> - Dealing with random PPC stuff
[15:19] <infinity> - Shepherd the LibreOffice SRU
[15:19] <infinity> - Attempting to maintain sanity
[15:19] <infinity> ☭
[15:19] <cjwatson> mvo: yep, I saw it in the queue indeed, that was mostly a note to myself
[15:19] <stgraber> bhuey: ok, so sounds like that's what you should be asking IS for (they'll ask for Steve's confirmation)
[15:19] <bhuey> stgraber: ok I get on that later today
[15:20] <stgraber> infinity: how's that last point going? :)
[15:20] <infinity> stgraber: It's a losing battle.
[15:20] <bhuey> SRU ?
[15:20] <cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[15:20] <infinity> bhuey: Stable Release... What he said.
[15:20] <bhuey> ok
[15:20] <bdmurray> modified daisy to use a tempfile for the coredump to help with swift errors and log the size of the coredump
[15:21] <bdmurray> updated daisy to cleanup leftover core files in /tmp/ (LP: #1330247)
[15:21] <bdmurray> worked with thedac regarding swift client exceptions in daisy
[15:21] <bdmurray> submitted daisy bug 1329427 regarding submitting the same crash
[15:21] <bdmurray> reported errors bug 1329820 regarding retracer stats for armhf
[15:21] <bdmurray> modified daisy retracers to exit earlier if no oops is found (save time!)
[15:21] <cjwatson> i.e. what we need to do in order to manage due diligence for changing stable releases
[15:21] <bdmurray> modified daisy retracers to mark oops that are missing from before the cut over as failed that way it won't continuously retry them
[15:21] <bdmurray> fixed daisy-retracer charm's cronjobs to set MAILTO
[15:21] <bdmurray> investigation into and fixing of amqplib IOError from the daisy frontends
[15:21] <bdmurray> investigation into building cassandra dpkg version type
[15:21] <bdmurray> research into corefiles in swift that don't need to be there (LP: #1331212)
[15:21] <bdmurray> ensured I have access to DSE-temp cassandra port 9160 for pycassa / lxc-errors
[15:21] <bdmurray> submitted RT regarding access to neem for OOPS from errors / daisy
[15:21] <bdmurray> updated errors OOPS page to have a link to the corresponding problem and system pages
[15:21] <bdmurray> irc discussion with seb128 regarding unity8 crashes in the error tracker
[15:21] <bdmurray> review of stopped phased updates and override of some regressions (they exist in newcassandra)
[15:21] <bdmurray> sent email to ubuntu-devel regarding the error tracker changing databases
[15:21] <bdmurray> investigation into corrupt crashes on armhf (its stripping of the symbols causing an issue on armhf) LP: #1325503
[15:21] <bdmurray> fixed rls-u reports on cranberry
[15:21] <bdmurray> ✔ done
[15:22] <stgraber> Short week, was off on Monday.
[15:22] <stgraber>  
[15:22] <stgraber> LXC:
[15:22] <stgraber>  - Released LXC 1.0.4, uploaded to utopic and trusty-propsoed.
[15:22] <stgraber>  - Processed all outstanding merge proposals and patches on the mailing-list.
[15:22] <stgraber>  - Looked into yet another container escape exploit (this time working around
[15:22] <stgraber>    even our apparmor profile) and sent an e-mail to our lists to clarify the
[15:22] <stgraber>    situation and strongly recommend using unprivileged containers.
[15:22] <stgraber>  - Working on a script to setup Unity8 under LXC, go the creation and
[15:23] <stgraber>    configuration part done, just need to add the integration bits with lightdm
[15:23] <stgraber>    before I can ship that to the Unity folks.
[15:23] <stgraber>  - Some planning discussions with LXC upstream and our partners.
[15:23] <stgraber>  
[15:23] <stgraber> Conferences:
[15:23] <stgraber>  - My talk at LinuxCon North America has finally been accepted
[15:23] <stgraber>    (simulating the Internet using unprivileged LXC containers).
[15:23] <stgraber>    Been figuring out some of the details now (registration as speaker,
[15:23] <stgraber>    scheduling, ...)
[15:23] <stgraber>  - Submitted a separate talk to the Linux Security Summit
[15:23] <stgraber>    (co-hosted with LinuxCon North America) on
[15:23] <stgraber>    "Application confinement with user namespaces".
[15:23] <stgraber>  - Working on draft schedule for the Container hackfest, also co-hosted with
[15:23] <stgraber>    LinuxCon North America.
[15:23] <stgraber>  - Starting to prepare some bits for the Linux Plumbers container mini-summit
[15:23] <stgraber>    in October (co-hosted with LinuxCon Europe in Dusseldorf).
[15:23] <stgraber>  
[15:23] <stgraber> Other:
[15:23] <stgraber>  - SRU queue reviews.
[15:23] <stgraber>  - Landing team work.
[15:23] <stgraber>  - Hopefully finally fixed our longstanding systemd-logind bug. (bug 1309025)
[15:23] <stgraber>  - Fixed a couple of issues with the system-image server locking mechanism
[15:23] <stgraber>    (leading to copy failures).
[15:24] <stgraber>  - Meeting on Ubuntu Touch image versioning.
[15:24] <stgraber> (DONE)
[15:24] <cjwatson> stgraber: unpriv LXC containers seem kinda heavyweight for drawing cat pictures
[15:24] <cjwatson> (seriously, let us know if that's going to be videod)
[15:24] <cjwatson> videoed?
[15:24] <infinity> cjwatson: But it's thousands of nodes, each either serving or viewing a cat picture.
[15:24] <infinity> cjwatson: Oh, have you not seen his internet yet?  It's fun.
[15:24] <cjwatson> I think I missed it
[15:25] <infinity> It's even more fun when it exposes kernel bugs.
[15:25] <bhuey> meory related kernel bugs ?
[15:25] <bhuey> memory
[15:25] <infinity> If only it were that simple.
[15:25] <stgraber> cjwatson: I did the demo at the cloud sprint, and indeed as infinity mentioned, as a result of this, I found at least 4 new network related kernel bugs
[15:25] <infinity> No, routing tables losing their calm.
[15:25] <infinity> And other such fun.
[15:25] <stgraber> bhuey: nah, memory is fine, neighborhood tables overflowing isn't :)
[15:26] <cjwatson> #topic AOB
[15:26] <bhuey> yeah Linux kernel reall wasn't designed with LXC in mind
[15:26] <stgraber> then you get fun things like random sendmsg returning EINVAL for no good reason and userspace processes not really liking it :)
[15:26] <cjwatson> So I think the only thing Steve wanted me to pass on while he's away was another reminder that if you were driving any sessions at UOS, please make sure that the output is captured in work items
[15:26] <bhuey> stgraber: oh god
[15:26] <cjwatson> so that http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-u/canonical-foundations.html looks a bit less sad
[15:30] <cjwatson> anything else?  going ...
[15:31] <cjwatson> going ...
[15:31] <infinity> *crickets*
[15:32] <cjwatson> gone.  thanks all
[15:32] <cjwatson> #endmeeting
[15:33] <barry> thanks!
[15:33] <mvo> thanks
[15:33] <stgraber> thanks!
[15:33] <caribou> thanks
[15:34] <jodh> thanks!
[15:34]  * bhuey cries that it's over
[15:34] <slangasek> it's ok there'll be another one before you know it
[15:34]  * cjwatson awards bhuey one and a half sarcasm points
[15:35]  * bhuey removes tail call optimizations from all of cjwatson compilers
[15:36] <cjwatson> now that's just mean
[15:36] <bhuey> hahaha
[15:36] <bhuey> talk about stack smash
[15:37] <bhuey> it's now 'stack smack' talk
[15:37]  * bhuey googles cat picture for cuteness
[15:37] <bhuey> ok later
[15:37] <bhuey> thanks
[17:00] <YokoZar> Hello
[17:00] <mhall119> o/
[17:00] <czajkowski> aloha
[17:00] <dholbach> *\o/*
[17:01] <cprofitt> hello
[17:01] <czajkowski> #startmeeting
[17:01] <czajkowski> bah
[17:02] <mhall119> um...where's the meeting bot?
[17:02] <czajkowski> hiding
[17:02] <czajkowski> in the mean time
[17:02] <mhall119> well that's not useful
[17:03] <czajkowski> AGENDA: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[17:03] <czajkowski> anyone here from the DEsktop team ?
[17:03] <seb128> hey
[17:03] <seb128> sorry I got sidetracked
[17:03] <seb128> czajkowski, thanks for the reminder ;-)
[17:03] <czajkowski> np
[17:03] <czajkowski> seb128: anyone else where today from the desktop team with you?
[17:04] <mhall119> welcome seb128
[17:04] <seb128> no, it's only me (I think)
[17:04] <czajkowski> ok
[17:04] <dholbach> hey seb128!
[17:04] <seb128> hey dholbach mhall119 ;-)
[17:04] <czajkowski> so this meeting is a chance to catch up with the CC, tell us how things are going anything we need to know and if the CC can help in any way
[17:04] <cprofitt> hello seb128
[17:04] <seb128> hey cprofitt
[17:05] <czajkowski> we do this for various boards and teams and this year decided to talk with the desktop
[17:05] <czajkowski> very informal so
[17:05] <dholbach> how are you doing? how's life? how are things in desktop land? :)
[17:05] <czajkowski> howdy :)
[17:05] <mhall119> dholbach: so many questions
[17:05] <seb128> haha
[17:05] <seb128> I don't have a specific agenda, that's likely to be boring :p
[17:05] <seb128> desktop is doing well, quite busy as usual
[17:06] <mhall119> seb128: does the desktop team still have the kind of community involvement it's had it the past?
[17:06] <seb128> our channel is quite active, work get done, we are happy with the quality
[17:06] <seb128> we try to keep on top of reviews, sponsoring, etc
[17:06] <seb128> mhall119, some, less than in the past
[17:06] <mhall119> seb128: why do you think there's been a decline?
[17:07] <seb128> several reasons
[17:07] <seb128> - we hired a part of our most active contributors base
[17:07] <mhall119> we seem to do that a lot :)
[17:07] <seb128> - we are enough "full timer" to keep on top of things
[17:08] <seb128> - we focus more on a "product" with unity, the convergence, etc
[17:08] <seb128> I would say that our "contributors" base is still somewhat around, but more focussed on e.g Ubuntu GNOME
[17:08] <mhall119> is out contributor on-ramp for those products working to allow those who want to contribute to do so easily?
[17:08] <YokoZar> Would you count "keeping up with bug triage" among those things?  I've always had the feeling that the desktop components in particular are just inundated with a big mess of launchpad bugs (though Gnome itself is no different)
[17:09] <dholbach> is there a good exchange between the Desktop team and the Ubuntu GNOME team?
[17:09] <YokoZar> More so than basically every other component I mean
[17:09] <seb128> hum
[17:09] <seb128> mhall119, well, it's the same as it was
[17:10] <seb128> we could probably do better with documentation, tagging easy bugs, make "where to start" lists
[17:10] <seb128> but we never had been optimal doing that
[17:10] <seb128> bug triage... we keep on top of triaging/dealing with important issues mostly
[17:10] <seb128> there is lot of poor quality reports and wishlists that don't get lot of action though
[17:11] <seb128> but it's nothing new or specific to us
[17:11] <seb128> exchange between Desktop and Ubuntu GNOME teams are mostly good yes
[17:11] <seb128> Tim is on #ubuntu-desktop and active
[17:11] <seb128> there are some frictions on technical details sometimes
[17:11] <seb128> but that has to expected since we have somewhat conflicting goals
[17:12] <czajkowski> seb128: what kind ?
[17:12] <seb128> we want quality and stability
[17:12] <czajkowski> seb128: are they easy to resolve or ?
[17:12] <seb128> they would like to be uptodate
[17:12] <seb128> like we used to be
[17:12] <seb128> but we don't have the resources to manage uptodate and to stabilize that moving code
[17:12] <dholbach> seb128, do you feel that's going better now? things like the settings-daemon fork (for example), should make that better now, right?
[17:12] <seb128> dholbach, yes
[17:12] <seb128> it's going in the right direction
[17:13] <seb128> we still have friction points, but we resolved some and are working on resolving the remaining ones
[17:13] <YokoZar> There was some tension in the past about gnome packages that we had basically forked but hadn't renamed, leading to Gnome in Ubuntu itself having some unity-specific changes that weren't necessarily desired.  Have we more or less handled that tension?
[17:13] <mhall119> are we doing well with the messaging around those kinds of forks?
[17:13] <dholbach> so you have a list and are slowly working through them?
[17:13] <YokoZar> dholbach basically repeated my question
[17:13] <YokoZar> or said it first rather :P
[17:13] <seb128> yes, as you said we "forked" gnome-settings-daemon/gnome-control-center for Unity
[17:13] <seb128> named them unity-settings-daemon/unity-control-center
[17:14] <seb128> then unpatched the upstream variants
[17:14] <seb128> we have less patches on other components
[17:14] <mhall119> seb128: are Ubuntu GNOME and upstream GNOME happy with how we're doing that and why?
[17:14] <seb128> and where we have, we do try to change the behaviour only under Unity by checking the env
[17:14] <seb128> yes they are
[17:14] <seb128> it's a good move for everyone
[17:14] <mhall119> good to hear :)
[17:15] <seb128> so we know what to work on
[17:15] <seb128> but as usual, more to do that people doing it
[17:15] <seb128> so things take time
[17:15] <seb128> like it took us over a cycle to get done with g-s-d/g-c-c
[17:15] <seb128> but it's nobody's fault
[17:16] <seb128> we could just use more people helping ;-)
[17:16] <dholbach> seb128, do you feel that talking a bit more about what needs to get done might help?
[17:16] <seb128> I don't know
[17:16] <mhall119> is there interest from the community in working on that?  it seems like a necessary evil that nobody really is excited to work on
[17:16] <seb128> it's the sort of things you don't know until you try and see results
[17:17] <seb128> mhall119, no, not really, it's mostly "boring" work
[17:17] <seb128> nothing new, fancy or user visible
[17:17] <seb128> just implementation details to sort
[17:17] <mhall119> seb128: is it something that can be broken down into small contributions?
[17:18] <seb128> some bits can
[17:18] <seb128> some others are non-trivial changesets
[17:18] <mhall119> having a list of those bits might make it less daunting for somebody to help out
[17:18] <seb128> right
[17:18] <dholbach> maybe a UOS like session with a blueprint might help(?)
[17:18] <mhall119> or a hackday like core apps do
[17:19] <mhall119> either one will take several hours away from somebody who might otherwise be doing the work though
[17:19] <seb128> right, that's not a new issue/tradeoff
[17:19] <YokoZar> To be fair we do have plenty of boring tasks the community helps with anyway :P
[17:20] <seb128> thanks for pointing it out
[17:20] <mhall119> YokoZar: yes, but it's easier to motivate people when the task is interesting :)
[17:20] <seb128> I don't think there is lot of new there or to discuss
[17:20] <mhall119> seb128: is there anything the CC can do for the desktop team?
[17:21] <czajkowski> seb128: any other issues you want to bring up ?
[17:21] <mhall119> any issues we can help resolve or organizational things we can do?
[17:21] <seb128> can anyone talk to the DMB about reviewing the application from our libreoffice maintainer who is ongoing for 1.5 years
[17:21] <seb128> and waiting for over a cycle with them looking at it
[17:21] <seb128> they said they would review it again but it seems like they are too busy to do it
[17:21] <mhall119> wow, that's not good, do you have a link to the application?
[17:22] <seb128> meanwhile Bjoern is waiting
[17:22] <dholbach> we have a meeting with the DMB coming up next :)
[17:22] <seb128> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BjoernMichaelsen/YourDeveloperApplication
[17:22] <mhall119> dholbach: what luck!
[17:22] <czajkowski> seb128: has there been any reason for the delay?
[17:22] <seb128> czajkowski, bdrung was working with him, but he got too busy for that
[17:23] <czajkowski> but still 1.5 years seem a bit crazy
[17:23] <seb128> and he took him some months before saying that it was stalled, time during which nothing happened
[17:23] <czajkowski> thank you for raising this and yes we can look into this
[17:23] <seb128> then he sent and email saying it would be better if somebody else would take that
[17:23] <seb128> but that got stalled since
[17:23] <dholbach> if bdrung is not around for the meeting now, I'm happy to take an action to discuss this
[17:23] <seb128> Laney trying to put the topic back
[17:23] <seb128> without luck
[17:23] <seb128> Laney doesn't want to get involved in that application though
[17:24] <ScottK> It's not like it's 1.5 years without action.
[17:24] <seb128> because Bjoern and him work in the same team
[17:24] <seb128> no
[17:24] <seb128> there has been 2 reviews
[17:24] <czajkowski> seb128: seems fair
[17:24] <seb128> and we think the issues got addressed
[17:24] <seb128> but now it has been over a cycle where it's pending on the DMB to review the application again
[17:24] <ScottK> Internally we've already asked the new DMB members to review his situation.
[17:25] <seb128> ScottK, that doesn't seem to happen though
[17:25] <ScottK> So it's about as in progress as it can get.
[17:25] <seb128> people say that for over a cycle
[17:25] <seb128> not sure I trust it
[17:25] <mhall119> ScottK: has that review happened yet? how long ago where they asked?
[17:25] <elfy> hi - sorry I'm late
[17:26] <ScottK> mhall119: I don't know who has or hasn't looked at the history.
[17:27] <mhall119> ScottK: do you know how long ago they were asked to review it?
[17:27] <ScottK> I understand the frustration.  Not sure what more I can do.
[17:27] <ScottK> I don't recall.  It was recently though.  In the last few weeks.
[17:27] <YokoZar> Ahh
[17:27] <YokoZar> I feel like we may be about to have the same conversation we had with the membership boards
[17:28] <mhall119> seb128: you said the application has been worked on, was there an issue before that the DMB asked to get resolved? and if so, has that been resolved now?
[17:28] <seb128> Laney wrote an email "maybe we should look at it again" like a month ago, but that didn't trigger lot of reply
[17:28] <seb128> bdmurray asked for some details like 3 weeks after that
[17:28] <YokoZar> whereby some sort of more complete "system" for tracking folks in the pipeline is needed
[17:28] <seb128> he's the only one that responded so far it seems
[17:28] <dholbach> YokoZar, we should probably first find out how many cases like this there are
[17:28] <seb128> I don't have access to their mailing list though, I was just Cced on that particular email discussion
[17:28] <ScottK> His situation is pretty unique.
[17:29] <dholbach> seb128, it sounds like the CC could try to help revive the discussion
[17:29] <mhall119> ScottK: in what way?
[17:29] <czajkowski> ScottK: roughly how long does it usually take for an application ?
[17:29] <ScottK> Usually just a few weeks.
[17:30] <ScottK> His situation predates my dmb membership.
[17:30] <mhall119> ScottK: even with a unique situation, things shouldn't go this long without activity
[17:30] <ScottK> Not all activity is visible.
[17:30] <seb128> well, they shouldn't go that long with an update to the applicant
[17:30] <mhall119> ScottK: shouldn't it be visible to the applicant?
[17:30] <seb128> Bjoern is waiting to know what's going on for over a cycle
[17:31] <seb128> he basically gave up at this point
[17:31] <mhall119> ScottK: even a "we're reviewing it now and have questions about X, Y and Z"
[17:31] <seb128> I'm pushing for him because that's ridiculous
[17:32] <ScottK> I think a more correct status is that the last time the DMB voted, the answer was still no.  The new DMB members have been asked to review the record to see what their vote would be.
[17:32] <czajkowski> seb128: so at this point we will chase up on things
[17:32] <ScottK> No.
[17:32] <czajkowski> and hopefully have bjorn an update one way or another at least to say it's been looked at
[17:32] <ScottK> DMB is a TB delegate AIUI.
[17:32] <czajkowski> but thank you for bringin this to us
[17:32] <mhall119> ScottK: ok, so there was a vote, it was just a negative one
[17:32] <ScottK> There have been several.
[17:32] <ScottK> At least two, maybe more.
[17:32] <seb128> czajkowski, thanks
[17:33] <mhall119> ScottK: where the reasons for the negative vote given to the applicant, and where they resolved before it went up to vote again?
[17:33] <YokoZar> Thank you both
[17:33] <czajkowski> seb128: np but in future please bring things sooner to us :)
[17:33] <seb128> yeah
[17:33] <seb128> the application got voted in the past
[17:33] <czajkowski> right so seb128 anything else before we move onto the next catch up
[17:33] <seb128> we believe the concerns have been addressed
[17:33] <seb128> but it has been stucked for a while now trying to get that re-reviewed
[17:33] <seb128> czajkowski, nothing from me no
[17:34] <mhall119> dholbach: czajkowski: so do we have an action item for this?
[17:34] <dholbach> yes, it's on the trello
[17:34] <czajkowski> mhall119: yes follow up with dmb on mail
[17:34] <mhall119> excellent
[17:34] <mhall119> thanks seb128 and ScottK
[17:34] <dholbach> thanks a bunch seb128!
[17:35] <seb128> thanks everyone for the discussion ;-)
[17:35] <elfy> thanks seb128
[17:35] <czajkowski> right so moving on
[17:35] <czajkowski> next item is Catch up with the DMB
[17:35] <czajkowski> sorry for no bot :)
[17:35] <czajkowski> so is there anyone here fomr the DMB
[17:36] <elfy> other than ScottK :)
[17:36] <ScottK> AFAIK, I'm it.
[17:36] <dholbach> how about bdrung, bdmurray, xnox, Laney, micahg, stgraber?
[17:37] <czajkowski> ScottK: howdy so how are things in the land of DMB ?
[17:37] <ScottK> Mostly quiet.
[17:37] <ScottK> Community involvement in development seems much less than in the past.
[17:37] <czajkowski> ScottK: Why is  that ?
[17:37] <ScottK> Canonical has organized itself so that not that many of it's people seem to care about upload rights.
[17:38] <dholbach> ?
[17:38] <ScottK> My guess is that people have pretty much given up on Ubuntu as a community project.
[17:38] <mhall119> ScottK: can you elaborate on that a bit?
[17:38] <mhall119> what exactly has changed in the organization?
[17:38] <ScottK> The CI train process that's in place lets people upload code to PPAs that after some review gets copied into Ubuntu.
[17:39] <ScottK> You don't need to be an ubuntu-dev to upload to those PPAs, so no incentive.
[17:39] <ScottK> Or less anyway.
[17:39] <ScottK> There are some who apply.
[17:39] <dholbach> Do you feel that with some encouragement or some discussions this could be changed?
[17:39] <dholbach> Others had to be convinced to apply for upload rights in the past too... :)
[17:39] <mhall119> ScottK: my understanding is that the CI process is changing, and that the changes will bring it more into alignment with how things used to be, is that correct?
[17:40] <ScottK> mhall119: My understanding is that the technical rights will better match the general archive permissions model, but the CI process will still work pretty much as it does now for individual developers.
[17:40] <mhall119> ScottK: also, is it a bad thing that the process for non-devs to get packages and changes into Ubuntu has become easier?
[17:41] <ScottK> mhall119: I think it's a bad thing that non-developers who happen to work for Canonical get a back door into the archive.  I'm glad it's being fixed.
[17:41] <YokoZar> Are we losing something from this organizational change?  Or is it more the case that Canonical staff who don't apply for developer status weren't doing much other than their canonical job
[17:42] <ScottK> Generally that's all they do.
[17:42] <ScottK> There doesn't seem to be much involvement with the broader community (that I can see).
[17:42] <ScottK> Of course a lot of stuff is happening around things like the phone where I don't necessarily see it.
[17:42] <mhall119> ScottK: and you think that community contributors are less active because canonical devs can upload through the CI process?
[17:42] <ScottK> No.
[17:42] <ScottK> Two issues.
[17:42] <dholbach> This is not just "Canonical staff", but everyone who contributes to projects which use the CI process.
[17:43] <ScottK> dholbach: As a practical matter virtually everyone who uses CI works for Canonical.
[17:43] <dholbach> Also I think it makes sense to mention that there are code reviews being done plus extensive automated testing.
[17:43] <dholbach> ScottK, there are contributions outside Canonical
[17:43] <ScottK> That's not inconsistent with what I said.
[17:44] <ScottK> Either way, bypassing the archive permissions model was a bad choice IMO.
[17:44] <mhall119> keeping the topic focused on community developers, are we actually seeing a decine in their involvement and if so what do you think is the primary cause of that decline?
[17:44] <ScottK> It's less a community project than it used to be.
[17:45] <ScottK> It's also less cutting edge.
[17:45] <mhall119> ScottK: why do you think the perception is that it's less of a community project?
[17:45] <ScottK> Because it is less of a community project.
[17:45] <mhall119> is it because canonical staff are given more access than they had in the past? or have we done something that gives community *less* access?
[17:45] <ScottK> I don't think it's just a perception thing.
[17:46] <ScottK> Canonical is increasingly taking Ubuntu in it's own direction.
[17:46] <ScottK> No one outside Canonical had any say in Unity, Mir, etc.
[17:47] <dholbach> How? Where do you feel it should be easier to participate?
[17:47] <YokoZar> This sentiment is not new, and ScottK is certainly not alone in it
[17:47] <ScottK> My assumption, and I'm not alone in this, is that eventually things like Kubuntu will become impractical because Ubuntu will be too different from the rest of the FOSS world.
[17:48] <dholbach> Are there specific technical discussions to be had, which haven't yet?
[17:48] <mhall119> ScottK: so what do you think changed to cause this? or, inversely, what do you think can be changed to correct it?
[17:48] <dholbach> Or is this more of a hypothetical concern?
[17:48] <dholbach> I think this is an important subject, and we sort of touched upon it in the meeting with the Kubuntu Council.
[17:48] <dholbach> But I feel like we're talking a bit less about DMB subjects now.
[17:49] <mhall119> ScottK: FWIW, I see a lot of "I feel it's this way because I see other people feel it's this way", but nothing I can actually change to fix it
[17:49] <dholbach> If there are concrete technical matters which should be discussed, the CC would be happy to help bring the right people to a table.
[17:49] <elfy> mhall119: that may well be the case - but it doesn't stop that being what people take home
[17:50] <mhall119> elfy: I don't disagree, but it's not enough to say there's a problem if we don't know what needs to be fixed
[17:51] <mhall119> it's like a bug report that says "Ubuntu's broken"
[17:51] <elfy> :)
[17:51] <YokoZar> There have been some prominent "Ubuntu is less on its own" developments recently (eg Systemd)
[17:51] <mhall119> dholbach is right though, this is a separate discussion from the DMB catchup itself
[17:51] <dholbach> I don't feel like the systemd discussion can be classified as "Ubuntu was on its own".
[17:52] <mhall119> I think we should have this discussion though, so maybe we can schedule a time and day for it?
[17:52] <dholbach> I don't think that's fair. Nobody can expect a distro to move to a new init system that quickly. Especially if you have something that's well for you.
[17:52] <ScottK> I think the reduction in community DMB application is a consequence of this feeling.
[17:53] <ScottK> So it's all DMB related.
[17:53] <mhall119> ScottK: I'm not saying it's not a DMB concern, just that it deserves a full hour (at least) on it's own
[17:53] <ScottK> I think it is what it is.
[17:53] <mhall119> trying to resolve it in a catch-up meeting wouldn't be giving it the attention it deserves
[17:53] <YokoZar> dholbach: what I mean is that one possible outcome of the systemd/upstart discussion would be that Ubuntu would be the only distro in the world doing upstart while everyone else eventually went to systemd.
[17:53] <YokoZar> If you have another dozen different fundamental differences like that between Ubuntu and rest of FOSSland, non ubuntu-specific projects on Ubuntu become harder.
[17:53] <ScottK> It's not a direction the community picked and it's not a direction the community can change.
[17:54] <dholbach> ScottK, what can't be changed?
[17:54] <ScottK> Canonical moving Ubuntu away from the rest of the FOSS world.
[17:54] <ScottK> I can be changed, but not from outside Canonical.
[17:54] <ScottK> I/It
[17:54] <mhall119> again, I think that if we can identify actual things, we can fix those actual things
[17:55] <YokoZar> I think it's worth keeping in mind as a general thing to be wary of, specifics may have to wait for a later time (or meeting)
[17:55] <mhall119> YokoZar: +1
[17:55] <dholbach> If anyone disagreed with a specific decision by anyone working for Canonical, we have discussion forums for this and it can be brought up with a board like the TB.
[17:55] <YokoZar> Catchup meetings are mostly about capturing this general wary sentiment, I'll note.  In that way this has been very helpful.
[17:56] <ScottK> dholbach: Not for the things that are sabfl'ed in.
[17:56] <mhall119> ScottK: I think it's important not to fall into fatalistic thinking like "It is what it is and it can't be changed", it can always be changed
[17:56] <ScottK> mhall119: I didn't say it couldn't be changed.
[17:56] <seb128> ScottK, the fact that unity uses Mir doesn't mean the community or Kubuntu or whoever has it forced on them
[17:56] <ScottK> For now, that's true.
[17:57] <dholbach> and if there are specific issues, they can be discussed and the CC would be happy to help with those
[17:57] <seb128> the fact that it's "for now" is just an assumption that could turn to be false
[17:57] <czajkowski> ScottK: do you think the rest of the DMB feels the same
[17:57] <dholbach> ScottK, do you feel the general operations of the DMB are going fine though?
[17:57] <mhall119> ScottK: so we have this channel for the next 3 minutes, are there any other DMB concerns that need to be brought up during this meeting?