[05:20] <Kilos> morning all
[05:22] <bduk1> Morning everyone
[05:31] <mazal> Morning everyone
[05:31] <Kilos> hi bduk1 mazal 
[05:32] <mazal> Sorry oom , ek het vergeet
[05:32] <Kilos> sies man
[05:33] <mazal> Weet nie hoe nie, ek het die reminder email unread gelos om my andag te trek , en google calendar was veronderstel om my te herhinner
[05:33] <Kilos> lol
[06:17] <ThatGraemeGuy> morning peeps
[06:17] <Kilos> hi ThatGraemeGuy 
[06:51]  * ThatGraemeGuy pokes superfly with a stick
[06:55] <plustwo> good morning everyone o/
[06:58] <Kilos> hi plustwo what woke you up
[06:59] <plustwo> a twitching right eye
[06:59] <plustwo> :)
[07:00] <plustwo> was playing around  with SLEPOS VM install last night ...
[07:05] <Kilos> ai! forced reboot
[07:06] <Kilos> tswane power peeps decided i needed a 40 sec break ggrrrrr
[07:19] <superfly> ohi
[07:22] <Kilos> morning superfly 
[07:34] <charl_> morning Kilos, superfly, plustwo, ThatGraemeGuy 
[07:34] <charl_> Maaz: coffee on
[07:34]  * Maaz starts grinding coffee
[07:34] <ThatGraemeGuy> morning
[07:35] <Kilos> hi charl_ 
[07:35] <Kilos> Maaz, coffee please
[07:35] <Maaz> Kilos: Yessir
[07:38] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for charl_ and Kilos!
[07:38] <charl_> Maaz: thanks
[07:38] <Maaz> charl_: Sure
[07:42] <superfly> hi charl_
[07:42] <charl_> hi smile 
[07:44] <smile> hoi charl_ :p
[07:44] <charl_> fire
[07:44] <charl_> oops sorry, wrong window :)
[07:48] <ThatGraemeGuy> :-o
[07:48] <ThatGraemeGuy> you have another IRC chat with US troops in the middle east?
[07:50] <charl_> lol no
[07:51] <Kilos> hehe
[07:58] <Vince-0> o/
[07:59] <Kilos> hi Vince-0 
[08:06] <charl_> i Vince-0 
[08:06] <charl_> hi drussell 
[08:06] <drussell> charl_: yo!
[08:09] <Vince-0> G'day
[08:09] <charl_> :)
[08:12] <JabberwockyA19> morning all o/
[08:14] <Kilos> hi JabberwockyA19 die_held 
[08:18] <ThatGraemeGuy> 'lo
[08:22] <charl_> hi JabberwockyA19 
[09:21] <charl_> makulu linux - interesting
[09:21] <charl_> it's been a while since i've seen a *real* south african distro of linux
[09:21] <charl_> most of those projects seem to have died out
[09:31] <ThatGraemeGuy> it takes a lot of resources to maintain one
[09:32] <ThatGraemeGuy> and what makes SA so special that we need a distro of our own?
[09:32] <charl_> i don't see why we need so many different distros in the first place
[09:32] <charl_> most don't seem to offer much out of the ordinary
[09:32] <ThatGraemeGuy> precisely
[09:32] <charl_> and yes, good point indeed
[09:32] <ThatGraemeGuy> it's human arrogance
[09:32] <ThatGraemeGuy> "oh, i can do it better than that" .... *starts new distro*
[09:33] <charl_> i like the spirit of freedom and choice in the open source community
[09:33] <charl_> but i think there is such a thing as "now it's just getting ridiculous"
[09:33] <ThatGraemeGuy> yeah
[09:40] <charl_> i like the idea of remixes more, where you can do a simple remix by including particular configuration based on an existing distro
[09:40] <charl_> and then you just call it a remix and don't make a new distro out of it
[09:43] <Private_User> hi all
[09:43] <Private_User> hi charl_, ThatGraemeGuy, Kilos and everybody else
[09:44] <Private_User> maybe we should as a collective start our own distro from scratch not based on any of the existing distros?
[09:45] <ThatGraemeGuy> 'lo
[09:45] <Private_User> but you guys are right lost of work and much resources are needed
[09:45] <Private_User> *lots
[09:46] <Private_User> but I guess most of us here are just a tad bit too loyal to ubuntu
[09:48] <Private_User> alternatively we could start a completely new OS based on nothing, sjoe but thats even more work and will probably take months maybe even years to complete
[09:48] <Private_User> hehe
[09:50] <charl_> hi Private_User 
[09:54] <charl_> i think the problem is that a lot of open source projects are started for the lol or to "scratch a personal itch"
[09:54] <charl_> instead  of looking at the actual wants/needs out there and fulfilling those
[10:40] <Private_User> yep agreed there charl_ and most of these distros just change the look and feel
[10:41] <Kilos> whats to worry about with this message
[10:41] <Kilos> (synaptic:17133): GLib-CRITICAL **: g_child_watch_add_full: assertion 'pid > 0' failed
[10:42] <superfly> Kilos: I've seen that often, even in non-gtk apps... it doesn't seem to do anything, I just ignore it
[10:43] <Kilos> cool ty superfly 
[12:24] <Trixar_za> Private_User: It's harder to build from scratch than you'd think
[12:25] <charl_> yeah if it was so easy everyone would have done it
[12:25] <charl_> and then you need hardware support etc
[12:26] <Private_User> yeah I would assume so but then again you right harder that I probably can imagine but not impossible I would say just alot of work requiring lots of resources
[12:26] <Trixar_za> You do get tools to make it simpler, but they themselves just automate tasks. Those tasks still need to be configured by hand before they work though.
[12:27] <Trixar_za> And you're a little screwed if you don't know how to configure the basic requirements :/
[12:27] <Trixar_za> Like compiling the Linux kernel and which options you'd need
[12:27] <charl_> i thought you all were talking about writing a new kernel
[12:27] <charl_> if you want to base it on linux, it's actually quite doable
[12:28] <charl_> but firstly you would need a good reason to start from scratch and not simply contribute to the linux kernel itself
[12:28] <Trixar_za> Took me a month to learn enough to use Buildroot to automate some parts. And I still got it wrong the first time :P
[12:29] <charl_> if you take a large project like debian, ubuntu, redhat etc you need to see how many specialists work together to make it happen
[12:29] <Trixar_za> Downside with Buildroot is that it doesn't do everything for you. You have to add the Desktop Environment yourself if you need it. It does however create a nice small Linux build with Busybox options :P
[12:30] <charl_> you need good package management software
[12:30] <Trixar_za> Debian and Ubuntu has a lot of moving parts and people don't always follow the guidelines
[12:30] <charl_> and good software repositories
[12:31] <charl_> there has never been a "standard" way to ship software on linux platforms
[12:31] <charl_> every distro cooks its own package management and/or repositories
[12:31] <charl_> or they simply base it off some existing distro like what ubuntu did with debian
[12:31] <charl_> and the two projects still share code back and forth
[12:31] <Trixar_za> Yeah, but that's where other distros can come into play. You can use their repositories. I was thinking of using SliTaz's one myself and have it fill in the gaps. Maybe reverse engineer a way for the packages compiled by buildroot to be passed back into SliTaz as a package for it.
[12:32] <Trixar_za> There's a Puppy Linux that does the same with Ubuntu
[12:33] <charl_> if you want to ship software for linux it's a huge problem because you either need to deal with the fact that distros ship outdated versions of your software or you need to maintain your own repositories
[12:33] <charl_> if you maintain your own repositories you once again need to build a bunch of different packages (pkg, rpm, etc etc)
[12:34] <Trixar_za> And if you have too many packages, that in itself becomes hard
[12:35] <charl_> yup
[12:35] <charl_> well you end up with a mess of repositories in your apt/yum config too
[12:36] <charl_> becomes very hard to manage, and then you need to manage the keys
[12:36] <charl_> it's extremely poorly thought out and implemented (for modern day's standards)
[12:37] <Trixar_za> Probably why you need a few people to help you out with it
[12:37] <Trixar_za> I think that's Puppy's problem. Everybody creates packages, but nobody invents a way to manage them.
[12:37] <charl_> lol
[12:38] <charl_> well what you really need to come up with is a new design for package management entirely
[12:38] <charl_> where you can push off some of the responsibilities of maintaining individual packages to the actual owners of the software
[12:39] <charl_> or at least for all packages/software that is not officially maintained by the distro itself
[12:39] <charl_> you will also need to standardise packaging formats so that all distros can make use of them in the same way
[12:39] <charl_> so you don't have both a dpkg and rpm but you have one "universal" linux package
[12:40] <Trixar_za> That would require a simple way to turn compiled code into packages. That should be simple enough for most developers.
[12:41] <charl_> Trixar_za: that's not the biggest issue, all packages have pretty similar stricture
[12:41] <charl_> you have some assets (images, etc) together with the binaries and config
[12:41] <charl_> most distros also standardise the locations for those
[12:41] <charl_> (considering that most of them do not strictly adhere to the filesystem hierarchy standard)
[12:42] <charl_> and besides, the FHS is pretty vague in any case
[12:42] <charl_> the biggest issue you have is dependency management
[12:42] <charl_> in particular, different versions of software
[12:42] <charl_> maven does an extremely good job of that, i wish we had that for all software, not only java
[12:42] <Trixar_za> Yeah, you do get developers that are a little 'latest dependency version as soon as it appears' crazy
[12:43] <charl_> well it's a good idea to try and "keep up with the times" but you first need to test it after upgrading
[12:43] <charl_> i have seen some of the strangest issues crop up when you don't expect it .. :(
[12:44] <charl_> most of this stuff isn't difficult it's just that technology evolves over time and these processes have not been standardised
[12:44] <charl_> imho we need some type of linux standards body almost like we have with the w3c for web standards
[12:44] <charl_> otherwise everyone just ends up doing their own thing and it turns into complete chaos (which is what we have now)
[12:45] <charl_> having to package software for a number of different operating systems is almost just like browser-specific coding on websites
[12:45] <Trixar_za> People will probably ignore it like the w3c too :P
[12:45] <charl_> the w3c is not being ignored, i think they have made amazing progress in the last 10 years
[12:46] <charl_> if i compare where we are at today compared to 10 years ago, a lot has changed (for the better too!)
[13:54] <Kilos> sjoe ThatGraemeGuy what you put in there?
[13:55] <Kilos> Maaz, coffee on
[13:55]  * Maaz washes some mugs
[13:55] <Kilos> Maaz, larger
[13:55] <Maaz> inna bucket for you Kilos
[13:56] <ThatGraemeGuy> eh?
[13:56] <Kilos> killed my power for 3 hours
[13:56] <ThatGraemeGuy> oops
[13:59] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for Kilos!
[13:59] <Kilos> Maaz, gracias
[13:59] <Maaz> Kilos: ¡de nada!
[14:39] <Golynx> what does a broken playstation 2 and my laptop have in commen ?
[14:55] <Kilos> performance
[14:56] <Kilos> common
[14:56] <Golynx> oh "common" :D
[14:56] <Golynx> nope not performance
[14:56] <Kilos> hmm...
[14:56] <Kilos> they both dont work
[14:57] <Golynx> nope * cold
[14:57] <Kilos> ?:
[14:57] <Golynx> ok the answer is, they both got the same charging pin :)
[14:58] <Kilos> ah you so lucky
[14:58] <Kilos> now break that one too
[14:58] <Golynx> the hot pin problem is gone after i fitted the playstations charger pin to the laptops charger 
[14:58] <Golynx> lol 
[14:59] <Golynx> the old pin had broken connections that caused the heat
[14:59] <Kilos> its you okes that lie in bed with lappy on knees that break charger pins
[15:00] <Golynx> nope built a special lappy desk, that it just a plank screwed onto a wooden table lol
[15:01] <Kilos> then how did that pin break
[15:01] <Kilos> its like peesp say things just broke but if you look in museums there are the same things that have never broken
[15:01] <Kilos> peeps break things
[15:02] <Golynx> i had this laptop about 4 years now and used it in charge alot , so the movements around i guess broken the pins inside
[15:02] <Kilos> well im happy for you the prob is solved
[15:03] <Golynx> yeah me too :)
[15:21] <JabberwockyA19> my dad gets a new laptop every now and then from work, most of the newer things breaks after a few years (no rough handling and seldomly takes it out of the office) there's this one laptop though that does not want to give in http://www.cnet.com/products/hp-compaq-nx9010-series/
[15:23] <JabberwockyA19> it's the 3.06ghz edtion, does get very hot performing almost any task including opening the start menu
[15:26] <JabberwockyA19> does your laptop use a 19V PSU ?
[15:26]  * JabberwockyA19 googles ps 2 psu
[15:28] <Golynx> i also got a hp compaq , but with an AMD cpu
[15:28] <Golynx> i think so
[15:28] <Golynx> i just cut the cable from the playstation charger and cut the laptop charger cable and connected it like that
[15:29] <JabberwockyA19> i will check it out!
[15:29] <JabberwockyA19> need to run quickly, bbl
[18:28] <smile> good night :)
[18:43] <ThatGraemeGuy> 'lo peeps
[18:43] <ThatGraemeGuy> lo peeps
[18:44] <ThatGraemeGuy> oh, now that's lag :-o
[18:51] <superfly> hi ThatGraemeGuy
[18:52]  * superfly finally sat down at the PC
[19:12] <Kilos> eish another power out
[19:12] <Kilos> 5 hours no power today
[19:33] <superfly> hi Kilos
[19:33] <Kilos> hi superfly 
[19:45] <spinza> Kilos:  where did the power go out?
[19:45] <Kilos> hi spinza pta west
[19:46] <Kilos> 3 times today
[19:46] <spinza> ouch
[19:46] <Kilos> ya
[19:51] <spinza> have you played with a wandboard
[19:52] <spinza> it is a mission to get a ubuntu + graphics + all the other things running
[19:52] <Kilos> nope what is that
[19:52] <spinza> armhf based hardware.  bit like a pi only more powerful
[19:52] <Kilos> its the other things i battle with
[19:53] <Kilos> nope ive only used desktops
[19:53] <spinza> http://www.wandboard.org/
[19:53] <spinza> thought if i could get ubuntu running on it, it should be a nice little lounge pc and home theatre system
[19:54] <spinza> i have something but it has a fan and is noisy
[19:55] <spinza> now i've had to compile kernels !!
[19:55] <spinza> and things i've never done before
[19:55] <Kilos> lol
[19:57] <spinza> lol yeah but it's a bit annoying
[19:58] <spinza> you'd thought they'd have an image ready with a basic os that supports the hardware
[19:59] <spinza> the ubuntu image they supply is armel.  runs some less than optimal emulation which is not even required as the hardware is present
[20:00] <Kilos> thats all too involved for me'
[20:14] <charl_> good evening people
[20:14] <charl_> whow still very light outside
[20:14] <Kilos> hi charl_ 
[20:14] <charl_> sun setting around midnight now
[20:14] <charl_> hi Kilos 
[20:19] <Kilos> haha no man i was without power for 5 hours today so catching up
[20:19] <charl_> bah :(
[20:20] <charl_> are they shedding their load again ?
[20:20] <Kilos> they say no but who knows
[20:20] <charl_> that level of technical incompetence is almost unimaginable in 2014
[20:21] <Kilos> its all the years of no expansion and less maintenance since 94
[20:21] <Kilos> now they playing catch up
[20:22] <charl_> sounds like they are getting even further behind
[20:22] <charl_> although i can remember aorund 2005/2006 i was in south africa and the power was horrible then too
[20:22] <charl_> we spent almost entire days with only a few hours of electricity
[20:22] <charl_> reminds me of when i was in kenya, the water only runs for a few hours a day
[20:23] <charl_> so every household or business has its own tank to catch up the water
[20:23] <charl_> and then pump it out again later when it's needed
[20:23] <charl_> unimaginable to people living in europe
[21:10] <Kilos> hehe
[21:10] <Kilos> life in africa
[21:10] <Kilos> i go crash now
[21:10] <Kilos> night all. sleep tight
[21:11] <Kilos> superfly, bed time
[21:11] <charl_> me too
[21:11] <charl_> nn all